I think AMD is upset with HardOCP and the truth.

Rvenger said:
C'mon now. 2 generations.

Hawaii was excellent, and introduced XDMA crossfire, just a crappy reference cooler but it competed well.
Click to expand...

Hawaii had its own issues with power, since Hawaii AMD has been behind in perf/watt. This is where they are getting hurt.

They need to compete in every category not just performance. That is what happens when you start hitting limits of power consumption and what computers can supply graphics cards, just for reference 2000 watts is the max that a home computer can go, that has nothing to do with computer specification, most house's outlets *per line , can only deliver that much wattage. With the conversion and loss of energy, computers are getting to max to that, you can't expect OEM's PCI-e specs etc to go beyond what they have right now, they are very close to the threshold as it is. Cost is another factor directly related to power consumption. OEM's and system builders are trying to make a buck too, and with PC sales dropping, they want to get as much out of what they have as possible. So if they can cut corners with lower power systems at the same performance they will, and promote those products more too. Give you an example, sales men try to sell the car that will give them the most profits. Have you ever went into a dealership, and they show you something you weren't looking at, at all? You know why they are pushing you to that other vehicle, is because they probably get something extra in their pocket if they can sell it to ya. Same goes for OEM's and system builders, nothing new there.

So for AMD to make power hungry cards at the top end, just can't be done anymore. They need to be competitive on both performance and power to make it not just one of the other.
 
Last edited:
razor1 said:
Hawaii had its own issues with power, since Hawaii AMD has been behind in perf/watt. This is where they are getting hurt.
Click to expand...


Hawaii was like what 30-50watts tops on reference more and performed better. Wow big fuckin whoopdedoo. Polaris sucks, Fiji was late and gimped, ROP starved, memory limited. I believe that, but Hawaii and Tahiti outlasted Kepler in every metric and completed in its market at that time.

They don't need to beat them in every category, just need to come close. Enthusiast market man, not some wimpy power sipping Prius that can hit 100 mile an hour for 10 seconds then slow down when you hit a hill ;) Prius must have been Toyota's founders edition hybrid. See what I did ;)

So 2 generations.... Not 3. Don't agree with you man and I normally do agree with you.

Pascal is awesome and puts a whooping on AMD. Not a fan of the founders edition cards but then again look at Polaris... Reference is junk too. Custom cards are king.
 
I must have missed this thread...but man. I don't hate AMD, and I certainly don't want them to go away. I'd love to see them succeed again in the market, but...this is NOT the way.
 
Rvenger said:
Hawaii was like what 30-50watts tops on reference more and performed better. Wow big fuckin whoopdedoo. Polaris sucks, Fiji was late and gimped, ROP starved, memory limited. I believe that, but Hawaii and Tahiti outlasted Kepler in every metric and completed in its market at that time.

They don't need to beat them in every category, just need to come close. Enthusiast market man, not some wimpy power sipping Prius that can hit 100 mile an hour for 10 seconds then slow down when you hit a hill ;) Prius must have been Toyota's founders edition hybrid. See what I did ;)

So 2 generations.... Not 3. Don't agree with you man and I normally do agree with you.

Pascal is awesome and puts a whooping on AMD. Not a fan of the founders edition cards but then again look at Polaris... Reference is junk too. Custom cards are king.
Click to expand...


Well I agree it wasn't much of a difference but it was enough to hurt them. People are being more conscientious about things outside of just performance, AMD should have understood that and learned from their hd 4xxx and 5xxx series of cards, performance matters but other factors matter too. nV sure learned, Fermi didn't do any favors for them with its crazy power consumption even though it had the performance crown.

You just have to look at the power curves for AMD cards since the 2xx series and see that they have been pushing their clocks up a point where their power draw is going crazy. The only reason they did this was to outperform nV cards if possible but at the expense of power draw.

Their design philosophy has to change, they must target not just 80% above a previous gen card at the same power they have to target 100% or more to catch up to nV at the same power draw. Using the current GCN architecture doesn't seem like they can do that, have to wait for Vega and see what comes out of it.
 
Last edited:
razor1 said:
Hawaii had its own issues with power, since Hawaii AMD has been behind in perf/watt. This is where they are getting hurt.

They need to compete in every category not just performance. That is what happens when you start hitting limits of power consumption and what computers can supply graphics cards, just for reference 2000 watts is the max that a home computer can go, that has nothing to do with computer specification, most house's outlets *per line , can only deliver that much wattage. With the conversion and loss of energy, computers are getting to max to that, you can't expect OEM's PCI-e specs etc to go beyond what they have right now, they are very close to the threshold as it is. Cost is another factor directly related to power consumption. OEM's and system builders are trying to make a buck too, and with PC sales dropping, they want to get as much out of what they have as possible. So if they can cut corners with lower power systems at the same performance they will, and promote those products more too. Give you an example, sales men try to sell the car that will give them the most profits. Have you ever went into a dealership, and they show you something you weren't looking at, at all? You know why they are pushing you to that other vehicle, is because they probably get something extra in their pocket if they can sell it to ya. Same goes for OEM's and system builders, nothing new there.

So for AMD to make power hungry cards at the top end, just can't be done anymore. They need to be competitive on both performance and power to make it not just one of the other.
Click to expand...


You aren't doing it right unless your gaming desktop at least makes the room lights flicker when it gets turned on. :)

(My wife rolls her eyes every time this happens, and you are very correct on the limit or so , as that's about what my two desktops side by side at my desk with monitors and so on. The breaker trips if the vacuum or something is plugged into the same circuit)
 
LOL I hear ya there, my first apartment Lower East Side Manhattan older building from the turn of the century, plugged in my comp turned it out everything was going fine, then fired up a game, that was it took out the fuses for the entire building lol.
 
razor1 said:
I agree with most of what you stated Aireoth, but I don't think their will be any new competitor in the graphics card arena, no one else right now has the IP to go head to head in GPU's for discrete graphics for now. Intel would be the closest and they are so far behind it isn't funny.

And as EuphoricRage470 just stated for AMD to take the high end and enthusiast segments AMD hasn't shown that they are capable of doing so for 3 gens now. I don't expect that to change in the short term either. Its a difficult task for AMD.

I have stated this before, marketing only works when you have a decent product, if your product is inferior in any ways to products already out or just about to come out, the average consumer will figure that out quickly specially with the internet, it wasn't like 20 years ago + where everyone was reading magazines to get information. Too easy to find information now if ones knows where to look and what to look for in their interests.
Click to expand...

Good luck for AMD on marketing when everyone of us has an anecdote about how at least one guy we will know willl never touch an AMD/ATI GPU regardless of how good it is. Mostly because they let the reputation for shitty drivers lingered for far too long.
 
  • Like
Reactions: N4CR
like this
Palladium@SG said:
Good luck for AMD on marketing when everyone of us has an anecdote about how at least one guy we will know willl never touch an AMD/ATI GPU regardless of how good it is. Mostly because they let the reputation for shitty drivers lingered for far too long.
Click to expand...
I think the drivers were fixed far before anyone recognized that. I still have to say that the drivers between the two have been pretty even for quite some time.
 
Apparently their terrible drivers are the reason why they are dropping even more support for their cards?

I went to get drivers for a HD 7xxx series card and noticed this now:

AMD Radeon™ Software Support for Legacy Graphics Products
AMD Radeon™ R5 235X, Radeon™ R5 235, Radeon™ R5 230, Radeon™ R5 220
Click to expand...

Those weren't on the original list last year, so they moved cards that are a whopping 2 years old into legacy status as well. Since they were rebrands and not based on GCN, they got the axe. Except they were the ones in the first place to release a new rebrand with a 2xx naming convention that they apparently never intended on supporting.

So call me a bit skeptical but if you played whack a mole with half of your product lineup and no longer support it, yet your new products aren't seeing improvements, I'm certainly not inspired to run out and get another AMD card. There's basically no way at this point my next card will be AMD as I have no faith it's going to receive support for very long, and it still doesn't appear their "refocusing efforts" have paid any dividends.
 
bman212121 said:
Apparently their terrible drivers are the reason why they are dropping even more support for their cards?

I went to get drivers for a HD 7xxx series card and noticed this now:



Those weren't on the original list last year, so they moved cards that are a whopping 2 years old into legacy status as well. Since they were rebrands and not based on GCN, they got the axe. Except they were the ones in the first place to release a new rebrand with a 2xx naming convention that they apparently never intended on supporting.

So call me a bit skeptical but if you played whack a mole with half of your product lineup and no longer support it, yet your new products aren't seeing improvements, I'm certainly not inspired to run out and get another AMD card. There's basically no way at this point my next card will be AMD as I have no faith it's going to receive support for very long, and it still doesn't appear their "refocusing efforts" have paid any dividends.
Click to expand...
That generation had driver support for a long time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zuul
like this
{NG}Fidel said:
I think the drivers were fixed far before anyone recognized that. I still have to say that the drivers between the two have been pretty even for quite some time.
Click to expand...


Well DX11 nV has a lead not from a stability point of view but a CPU overhead, now DX12 that is quite the opposite, I have noticed more CPU overhead on Pascal vs GCN, which is unusual to say the least, but then again AMD does have lead with development time with LLAPI drivers, not sure if that is what we are seeing or something is inherently using more CPU on nV's end, which I can't see why that is just don't have the info on it.
 
razor1 said:
Hawaii had its own issues with power, since Hawaii AMD has been behind in perf/watt. This is where they are getting hurt.

They need to compete in every category not just performance. That is what happens when you start hitting limits of power consumption and what computers can supply graphics cards, just for reference 2000 watts is the max that a home computer can go, that has nothing to do with computer specification, most house's outlets *per line , can only deliver that much wattage. With the conversion and loss of energy, computers are getting to max to that, you can't expect OEM's PCI-e specs etc to go beyond what they have right now, they are very close to the threshold as it is. Cost is another factor directly related to power consumption. OEM's and system builders are trying to make a buck too, and with PC sales dropping, they want to get as much out of what they have as possible. So if they can cut corners with lower power systems at the same performance they will, and promote those products more too. Give you an example, sales men try to sell the car that will give them the most profits. Have you ever went into a dealership, and they show you something you weren't looking at, at all? You know why they are pushing you to that other vehicle, is because they probably get something extra in their pocket if they can sell it to ya. Same goes for OEM's and system builders, nothing new there.

So for AMD to make power hungry cards at the top end, just can't be done anymore. They need to be competitive on both performance and power to make it not just one of the other.
Click to expand...
o_O you can go above 2000w for a home computer in most homes. 220v will get you way past 2000w watts plus most pc power supplies will automatically use 220v or has a switch (old ones). Really you would need multiple power supplies and a rather good A/C unit to go along with it for 2000w+. Miners have systems that really push the watts as a note.

Perf/w Nvidia looks to have a big advantage and yes this limits AMD top end performance due to power limitations.
 
noko said:
o_O you can go above 2000w for a home computer in most homes. 220v will get you way past 2000w watts plus most pc power supplies will automatically use 220v or has a switch (old ones). Really you would need multiple power supplies and a rather good A/C unit to go along with it for 2000w+. Miners have systems that really push the watts as a note.

Perf/w Nvidia looks to have a big advantage and yes this limits AMD top end performance due to power limitations.
Click to expand...


Well 230 v isn't the standard here in US homes, 120 is ;) we do have 240 v lines but those are for major appliances like fridge, washing machine etc but those use different connectors.
 
razor1 said:
Well 230 v isn't the standard here in US homes, 120 is ;) we do have 240 v lines but those are for major appliances like fridge, washing machine etc but those use different connectors.
Click to expand...

In the EU a strandard plug is 220V(1 phase)...washing-machines/dryers run on 400V (2 or 3 phases)...seems like the US needs to move into the 21st century in regards to electricity ;)
 
ehum my 2 c , is AMD bullshitting us? no, is that fuck Roy bullshitting us? yeah. Fuck do I care until this mofo shows up with his shit about this and that. I don't believe for a second that AMD as a company stands behind this motherfucker without having an escape plan.
Now...I don't even care what nvidiah comes up with because I don't really care, they are fucking each and every one of you. okthxbbn
 
Zuul said:
ehum my 2 c , is AMD bullshitting us? no, is that fuck Roy bullshitting us? yeah. Fuck do I care until this mofo shows up with his shit about this and that. I don't believe for a second that AMD as a company stands behind this motherfucker without having an escape plan.
Now...I don't even care what nvidiah comes up with because I don't really care, they are fucking each and every one of you. okthxbbn
Click to expand...

How is NVIDIA "f-ing" each and every one of us?
 
DooKey said:
They won't fire sale their GPU's like AMD. Most AMD fans are of the limited funding type. Voluntary or not.
Click to expand...

They don't seem to understand the time is money either. I am more than happy to pay $150 extra for a 1070, especially when it's very possible that I can hold onto it for an entire year before Vega even shows up. I got games to play in the meanwhile, you know.

I also like how AMD fanboys themselves are driving their to their favorite company to the ground with their penny pinching while coming up with rationalizations is justify how that is a good thing.
 
I posted this in another VR thread, but it's just as relevant here.

This is AMD's VR marketing right now:

72576969.jpg


72577051.jpg


72577171.jpg
 
This is why I say marketing only works if ya got competitive products. Doesn't matter how much marketing ya do, if your product stack doesn't hold up people will figure it out pretty quickly and retailers, OEM's/system builders will buy their stock accordingly.

Radeon – AMD and Oculus Shatter VR Barriers With $499 CyberPowerPC VR Ready System

This is just crap marketing, this system comes with a rx470 and they are calling it vr ready?
 
Last edited:
razor1 said:
This is why I say marketing only works if ya got competitive products. Doesn't matter how much marketing ya do, if your product stack doesn't hold up people will figure it out pretty quickly and retailers, OEM's/system builders will buy their stock accordingly.

Radeon – AMD and Oculus Shatter VR Barriers With $499 CyberPowerPC VR Ready System

This is just crap marketing, this system comes with a rx470 and they are calling it vr ready?
Click to expand...
Most people don't care and will lap it up.
 
Ocellaris said:
There's a reason the page contains zero benchmarks or actual games listed.
Click to expand...


Yep they are seriously grasping at straws here. And they are still comparing to nV's last gen products which are EOL a while back.

Forgot to add, this type of marketing doesn't make sense either, people that bought a 970 spent $350 on their card, they aren't looking for $250 cards! AMD needs more effective ways where people don't think and then marketing can really work lol.

Marketing options, AMD doesn't have much though, they can't compare to the 1060 cause well thats a wash, they can't compare to their last gen cards, cause that price range of cards just weren't good at VR and if they wanted to compare to VR cards of their last gen, the loss sales of those cards which I think they are still selling.
 
Last edited:
razor1 said:
Well 230 v isn't the standard here in US homes, 120 is ;) we do have 240 v lines but those are for major appliances like fridge, washing machine etc but those use different connectors.
Click to expand...
Yes 240v, 2 hots one common and a ground has been common in homes in the US for a very long time. Normally for A/C units, stove, electric heater, electric water heater etc. Way over 2000w capable. It is rather easy to hook up 240v to a PC power supply as well if anyone really wanted to. The real question is would someone really want a 2000w-3000w pc??? :)

Plus it is also easy to hook up two power supplies using 110v from each hot leg from the 240v (some are actually 220v with 110v outlets depending upon your power company) each being 20a so a total of 40a ->4000w.

The point is you are not limited to 2000w for a pc but for practical purposes it would be also kinda ridiculous to have one unless you have some rather good cooling for the room or whole pc/server rack.

Maybe I will do this for the hell of it :LOL:
 
Well its not that hard to do I agree, but not many people would likely do something like that lol.

Well the comp I had in my first apartment in NYC, that thing ate up 1800 watts, of course it was a full fledged server/workstation with dual CPU's 4 core Penryn, 8 hard drives, 16 gigs of ram *that was a lot back then*. I remember telling my room mate after the "incident" on the first day, don't turn on the microwave if I'm gaming lol.
 
razor1 said:
Gets even better lol

Radeon – Higher Frame Rates and Smoother VR with Asynchronous Compute

They are saying Async compute is very important for VR experience lol, I don't think we have seen a single game that runs on LLAPI's that are VR games, so err how is async compute even a topic for VR so far?
Click to expand...
Hey did you give AMD your email address at the end of this spew? :LOL:

Gee, evaluate and verify results - how can AMD make such statements with zero results/proof. I guess folks are just suppose to believe and maybe bow down a few times in the process. Not only that, some DX 12 games, even using AMD hardware sometimes have stutter stutter until fixed.

Now some should wait for Vega if they are gaming just fine and really don't have a significant reason to buy a Pascal Card. Once Vega is released they they can decide what card Vega, Pascal or wait longer for Volta if still don't need to upgrade. People don't need to upgrade every generation.
 
noko said:
Hey did you give AMD your email address at the end of this spew? :LOL:

Gee, evaluate and verify results - how can AMD make such statements with zero results/proof. I guess folks are just suppose to believe and maybe bow down a few times in the process. Not only that, some DX 12 games, even using AMD hardware sometimes have stutter stutter until fixed.

Now some should wait for Vega if they are gaming just fine and really don't have a significant reason to buy a Pascal Card. Once Vega is released they they can decide what card Vega, Pascal or wait longer for Volta if still don't need to upgrade. People don't need to upgrade every generation.
Click to expand...

I seriously wouldn't mind revamping AMD's marketing and I think it would be really fun job, but I don't think they have the money to pay me lol, not going to say how much I get right now but billable hour rate is 1.5k, *I don't get nearly that much*
 
I don't hang out too much in the Video Card section, but it seemed like before Pascal there were quite a few more vocal AMD diehards...they seem all but gone recently as far as I have seen.

It really does suck for everyone if AMD can't get it together. These marketing shenanigans just hurt them.
 
Well they really don't have much to go on marketing wise right now, they can't go toe to toe with Pascal. They can't go back and change time about their TAM comments, they dug their own grave. Whats that quote if you dig far enough you will eventually get to the other side, pretty much that is what they are doing lol.
 
MavericK said:
I don't hang out too much in the Video Card section, but it seemed like before Pascal there were quite a few more vocal AMD diehards...they seem all but gone recently as far as I have seen.

It really does suck for everyone if AMD can't get it together. These marketing shenanigans just hurt them.
Click to expand...

I was a supporter of AMD because they had good hardware and at good prices, plus it didn't look like they were trying to dig their own grave. Now they are trying to rely purely on marketing and hope people buy their shit products based on fud. Makes it hard for me to support that, even though they still have good hardware.
 
Trimlock said:
I was a supporter of AMD because they had good hardware and at good prices, plus it didn't look like they were trying to dig their own grave. Now they are trying to rely purely on marketing and hope people buy their shit products based on fud. Makes it hard for me to support that, even though they still have good hardware.
Click to expand...

At this point, Vega practically has to be the "second coming" of the 4xxx/5xxx series, or else. Same goes for Zen. Are Hector Ruiz and Rory Read to blame for the current mess in the GPU division? I know some here have alluded to R&D cuts that were done in past years, which because of the length of time required from conception to production meant that mistakes years ago are haunting AMD now. More info would be readily appreciated for the "larger picture". :)
 
Well I admit I have never really cared for ATi. I care not to use the name AMD because I have liked their CPU's over the years.

Even with my disdain for ATi, I did purchase a stock 5870 which was hot and noisy. After reading some reviews about after market coolers, I got a nice Zalman cooler for it and installed it. It was now quiet and could overclock like no ones business. I used it many years and then sold it to a friend. When it came time to upgrade, the NVidia choices were much faster than ATi and hasn't really changed since the 290X fluke.

I wouldn't know the difference between all the hardware if I didn't read the stuff here on [H]ardOCP. No one else out there has done much of any of the testing that Kyle has. Those charts and measurements don't lie. Seems like Mr Head Hauncho would read the ONE site that shows the performance numbers if they hadn't already done that in-house.

It is a shame it has gotten to a 'well I am gonna ignore you' status. I didn't see Kyle call him any names(y)
 
tungt88 said:
At this point, Vega practically has to be the "second coming" of the 4xxx/5xxx series, or else. Same goes for Zen. Are Hector Ruiz and Rory Read to blame for the current mess in the GPU division? I know some here have alluded to R&D cuts that were done in past years, which because of the length of time required from conception to production meant that mistakes years ago are haunting AMD now. More info would be readily appreciated for the "larger picture". :)
Click to expand...

It definitely is an accumulation of what Roy Read has done, don't think Hector did anything to cut down R&D on the graphics side.
 
It was actually stupid for Roy Read to do what he did too, the graphics division was actually holding up AMD's CPU division for quite some time and then he cut R&D spending on it, it was just backwards thinking.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top