I need help trying to understand the power output on this receiver

Discussion in 'Home Theater PCs & Equipment' started by Happy Hopping, Mar 17, 2018.

  1. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    http://www.eu.onkyo.com/en/products/tx-nr3030-117903.html

    The following is Onkyo TX-NR3030:

    Power Output
    All Channels 185 W/Ch (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 1% THD,
    1 Channel Driven, IEC)
    230 W/Ch
    (6 Ω, 1 kHz, 1 Channel Driven, JEITA)
    Dynamic Power 300 W (3 Ω, Front)
    250 W (4 Ω, Front)
    150 W (8 Ω, Front)

    ==============================

    1) exactly WHAT is the output wattage per channel?

    What do they mean by 185W at 1% THD 1 chnl. driven, IEC and yet 230W / ch. with some JEITA?

    2) what is mean by dynamic power 300W Front at 3 Ohm? Are they giving 300W per speaker at Left , Center and Right? that would mean 3 x 300W at 3 Ohm

    3) the power consumption of this receiver is 1105W. But since ea. chnl. 185W, and this is a 11 chnl. unit, should the power consumption be 185W x 11 = 2035W

    4) IF the center speaker is 600W, but left / right speaker is 200W say, what wattage would this receiver sends out to the center, left, and right?
     
  2. Verge

    Verge [H]ardness Supreme

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  3. drutman

    drutman n00bie

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    Hope this helps I am a retired professional chemist with a specialty in analytical instrumentation and my uncle has a recording studio so I have knowledge of the consumer and pro side of audio.
    Do not get to caught up in the specs or being a "measurebator" audio is very subjective and personal. The IEC is a international standard.

    The quality of the watt is crucial, for example a discrete Darlington hand wired transistor amp can run over 10K whereas your MosFET receivers are sub $500 (99% of gear bought today). I have a Yamaha DSP receiver, 7 ch.

    The power rating is irrelevant most sound systems play sound best when at under 5 watts continuous give or take. Efficiency rating will tell you how loud a speaker plays at 1 m away with one watt in. My Infinity speakers are rated at 98 dB/watt. So

    1 watt is 98 dB SPL OSHA states no more than 90 dB @ 8 hrs at this threshold without hearing protection
    2 watts is 101 dB
    4 watts 104 dB
    8 watts 107 dB Need to spend ton of money to experience clean uncompressed music at this level or above.
    16 watts 110 dB
    32 watts 113 dB
    64 watts 116 dB
    128 watts 119 dB Permanent loss of hearing

    Why is this important let say speaker brand X is rated at 80 dB/watt, what power is needed to match my setup?

    1 watt 80
    2 watts 83
    4 86
    8 89
    16 92
    32 95
    64 98
    128 101
    256 104
    512 107
    1024 110 to get this I need to invest in a Krell, Mark Levinson mono-block in excess of $5000 usd. These high end amps are rated at 1 horsepower which is around 750 W at 8 ohms, 1500 W at 4 ohms continuous), No FET stages, discrete class A.
    2048 113
    4096 116

    Sound output is logarithmic not linear, double power not twice as loud.
    For example I am a metal fan, the sound system for Iron Maiden is approx 300 KW at 117 dB this projects thousands of feet. If I do not add speakers or change drivers if I double power to 600 KW it is only 3 dB louder.

    PM me if you need any more help, I am avail.
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2018
  4. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    1) This is your rated output, you won't ever reach these numbers. They are probably the maximum rating of the MOSFETS used, likely output is 30% lower. Weather you reach that output is up to how loud you like it or how loud your speakers get before they fry your amp.

    250 W (4 Ω, Front)
    150 W (8 Ω, Front)
    2) What its saying is at single channel, it will be capable of handling a light load up to 300watts. Again not very accurate, but if your speakers do dip into 3ohm's it should handle it.

    3) Nope, those values are highly over rated and most likely choked to prevent actually getting to that rating. These chips also aren't 100% efficient although class D chips are a hell of a lot more efficient than A/B chips, but most come within 90-92%. Still then this thing will probably only do 100watts all channels driven, mostly due to power supplied. This sounds negative but its not, 100 watts to a channel is pretty sweet if you aren't actively EQ'ing your system.

    4)I don't understand this question?

    Are you talking about a speakers RMS value? That has nothing to do with your amp's output, although if you play loud, with lots of bass you'll want to get an external amp to drive them. Your speakers sensitivity and source material (this is very simplified btw) will decide what your amp sends to your speakers.
     
  5. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Limp Gawd

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    The amp section should be identical on this previous year model:

    https://www.soundandvision.com/content/onkyo-tx-nr3010-av-receiver-ht-labs-measures

    Two channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 167.8 watts
    1% distortion at 189.5 watts

    Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 122.1 watts
    1% distortion at 142.2 watts

    Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads:
    0.1% distortion at 114.1 watts
    1% distortion at 127.2 watts


    It varies by how many channels you are driving.

    The only number that's worth noting is the 185W at 1% THD mark. When receiver manufacturers say "all channels driven" they are typically citing 2 channel output performance. No one ever accurately cites multi-channel output today. Flagship receivers used to be accurate in this regard, but nobody has actually sold a legit flagship receiver (one that can compete with separates) for at least 10 years. The last 2 receivers that arguably did have accurate power ratings were the Yamaha RX-Z11 (73lbs) and the Denon AVR-5805 (98lbs), which were $6000 receivers. The reason nobody sells a flagship (i.e. separates competitive) receiver anymore is because nobody who can afford one would buy them over separates anyway.

    Probably just instantaneous power numbers.

    185 W/channel numbers are for 2 channels output. That's industry standard for receivers today.

    If your receiver sent 600 watts to the center channel the voice coil would melt.
     
  6. Brian_B

    Brian_B [H]ard|Gawd

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    For #1/#2 - My guess is they are showing what the US would typically call RMS and Peak values. 185-200W RMS @6Ohm, 300W Peak @ 3Ohm

    RMS (Root Mean Square) is the average sustained continuous power rating (what you really want to look for). Peak is what it can deliver at max output under best conditions, but can't necessarily be sustained (such as a quick loud bass hit). Most consumer stuff will print Peak on the box, because it's usually a much bigger number. High end equipment will almost exclusively just talk about RMS, because that's the one that really matters, and what you want to base your speakers from.

    JEITA is some Japanese standard of measurement, IEC is an International standard. They will use slightly different tolerances and methods to measure power output, hence the slight difference in their rating.

    Power output will differ based on your speaker impedance, so they just throw a bunch of numbers out there. It does look confusing the way they are wording it, but that's no different than any other amplifier is out there.

    If you were going to pair speakers up to them, anything in the 150-250W range would be a good match.
     
  7. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    When I cant find RMS figures I look at the peak values and multiply by 2/3 to get somewhere near RMS. It is sometimes a bit more sometimes less.
    The nearest this amp gives is dynamic power which is even sketchier than peak power so I would 1/2 this.

    When an amp doesnt quote RMS figures with much lower than 1% THD I wont consider it anyway.
    And quoting 3 ohm figures when you cant connect a 3 ohm speaker is misleading and could be illegal.
    ie
    Dynamic Power 300 W (3 Ω, Front)
    Speaker Impedance 4Ω – 16Ω or 6Ω – 16 Ω

    Note that they dont say all channels driven.
    They state All channels and then quote the figures for 1 channel.
    In other words each channel individually can achieve this when used by itself.
    Rubbish specs.

    The quoted figures for this amp are bollocks.
    I would rate this amp at much less than 100W/ch RMS with decent THD, all channels driven.
    Probably near 70W/ch.


    An example of figures you can use:
    Emotiva A-100 BasX 2 channel amp.
    Power Output (main outputs; two channels driven):
    50 watts / channel RMS; 8 Ohms; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; <0.05% THD.
    80 watts / channel RMS; continuous; into 4 ohms.
     
  8. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Limp Gawd

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    I don't think it's that severe of a dropoff. The previous model, TX-NR3010 does almost 130W/channel in to 7 channels and weighs 55lbs. The TX-NR3030 is admitedly a little lighter at 49lbs but it shouldn't be that severe of a performance loss.
     
  9. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    Are those claimed figures or lab tested?
     
  10. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Limp Gawd

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    Soundandvision is considered a reputable publication, they've been testing receivers for decades and no one has ever found them to have falsified their measurements.
     
  11. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    after I post the above, that's what I find out from vaious manufacturer's 9.2, 7.2 etc. receiver website

    Why is that? If people were to use it at 2 chnl., all they need is a DAC to an pair of active speaker. And get better sound

    who would buy a 7.2 receiver for 2 chnl.?

    So why on earth is the industry so deceptive and not to publish the steady state power output for 5 chnl. and for 7 chnl. etc.?

    They published the peak power or the instantaneous power output, but that's not the Wss.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  12. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    Got a link?
     
  13. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Limp Gawd

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    What are you looking for?
     
  14. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    The results of the power tests.
    I cant evaluate without seeing them.
     
  15. pippenainteasy

    pippenainteasy Limp Gawd

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    The link is in the original post you quoted, right next to the power measurement numbers.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2018
  16. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    I didnt join the dots :)

    I dont know what Onkyo published for the TX-NR3030, they hugely undersold it!
    The "Dynamic" figures they give are much lower than the true RMS it can give for 2 channels. It should be the other way round.
    No multichannel RMS figures, only single channel figures except for Dynamic front channels make it look cheap.

    A long time ago I bought an Onkyo TX-SR875 AV amp and it was pretty phenomenal.
    (apart from getting so hot you can actually burn yourself, and them blowing up because of it!)
    I used it for a few years with a 200mm fan on top then moved on to separates.
    My Dad has had it since and it is still working perfectly today, with the same fan on top.
    I was trying something with it over christmas and didnt fit the fan properly. I was blown away with how hot it got.
    Onkyo gave a good set of figures to market the 875, unlike the rubbish they posted for the 3030.

    Op, I have looked at the user experience for this amp and it is fantastic except for one thing.
    Heat!
    See the first post here https://www.avforums.com/threads/onkyo-tx-nr3030-owners-thread-my-quick-review.1921699/
    When buying second hand you have no idea what damage has been done and I would never buy an ex demo or second hand amp that runs extremely hot.
    You take a great risk and you will be lucky to get help from Onkyo support if there is a problem.
    If you can buy one certified as new and fit a fan on top drawing air out, then I recommend it.
    Otherwise steer clear.
    If its really cheap there is usually good reason.
     
  17. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    Answering your questions...

    1) Unknown for anything other than that specific test but thanks to pippenainteasys Onkyo 3010 review post, they look like they will be acceptable.

    2) Again unknown.
    There is no exact definition of Dynamic Power for an audio amplifier.

    3) It doesnt quite work that way.
    The circuits for each channel limit max power as well as the torroid (and supporting circuits) supplying power.
    And the banks of capacitors on the DC side store a LOT of charge so the amplifier can respond to much higher power transients than the RMS rated figures (RMS figures are not present for this amp unfortunately).
    The transient power is often rated as a "peak" figure (which must be strongly defined to be meaningful), the nearest we have for this with the 3030 is a very undefined Dynamic power.

    You can assume if the amps maximum continuous RMS power consumption is 1100W, the true sustained RMS figures for each channel with all 11 driven will be less than 100W/ch, even if the amplifier circuits can handle more.
    The whole AV amplifier may need a few hundred watts to power itself and since it runs hot maybe a few hundred more.
    All of this takes away from the pool of power available for the speakers.
    However, 2 or even 5 channels driven have a much greater split of available power.
    This is where the amplifier circuits become the limiting factor and you will get much closer to them.
    But its not all bad because most amplifier manufacturers exaggerate their power figures so while they can look low, they compare well.
    However, they pale in comparison to figures such as those from Emotiva.

    Lets assume the AV systems inside the amp needs 300W (including heat inefficiency) to run when pumping out a Blu Ray film. It could be more or could be less, its an example figure. It can be higher for an amp that runs hot.
    This leaves a maximum headroom of 800W RMS to power 4 ohm speakers. 8 ohm speakers will get much less.
    (also assuming the AV amps power use figure is correct!)
    The RMS power available from each amplifier channel for 4 ohm speakers is:
    11 channels: 73W/ch
    5 channels: 160W/ch
    2 channels: 400W/ch

    Clearly there is no way this amp will give 400W/ch RMS, the amplifier circuits will restrict this to something below the rated RMS figure for 1 channel driven.
    But the 5 channel setup will get much closer to 160W RMS on this amp with 4 ohm speakers.
    And 2 channels will get quite close to the 1 channel driven RMS figures, which they havent provided unfortunately.

    But note these are the RMS figures for 4 ohm speakers, 8 ohm speakers will get less.
    How much less depends on the amplifier design. It could be 1/2 or above 2/3.
    Assuming 2/3, the RMS power available from each amplifier channel for 8 ohm speakers is:
    11 channels: 48W
    5 channels: 106W
    2 channels: 266W

    With 8 ohm speakers only the 2 channel figures will approach the maximum capability of the amplifier stage.
    Note: there are other ways power is restricted, these are simplified examples.
    These are sustained RMS figures such as those Emotiva use.
    But RMS figures can be rated higher because the bank of capacitors can store enough power to play the test sounds for long enough to pass the tests, especially for an 11 channels setup. It wont make a difference for 2 channel on this AV amp because there is already more than enough RMS power on tap.

    4) The power handling of the speaker isnt what matters (assuming it is high enough).
    The speaker resistance is the figure that determines how much power is fed to/used by each speaker for a given input.
    ie When all the speakers are 8 ohm then they will each use a similar amount of power for the same signal.
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  18. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    Come to think about the 5.1 wattage distribution, are they all the same wattage per chnl? Because the center chnl. is just vocal, people talking, and the front right / left is the key speaker. The rear right / left is just for background sound like rain drop, so does these receiver set the same wattage per chnl. regardless whether the speaker needs it or not?

    Or does it allocate the needed wattage to the front left / right, and gives less to the rear chnl.?

    because I think the right / left is not loud enough, whereas all the other chnl. is fine.

    As to the calucation of the steady state wattage, do we just applies that 2/3 x peak power guideline?

    because I surely don't want to post "what is the wattage" of such and such A/V receiver each time I need to fig. out. But as you people said, these manufacturers no longer gives the steady state wattage, just the peak power at 2 chnl., but we use more than 2 chnl.

    The speaker I like is 8 Ohm at the front right / left and center. Fro the rear left / right is says (40 to 200W at 4 Ohm / 8 Ohm)

    as to A/V receiver, I have a new problem, the Onyko is too high, (it won't fit my rack) this guy at 6.5" high is better, otherwise, it won't fit:

    https://usa.denon.com/us/product/hometheater/receivers/avrx6400h
     
  19. Nenu

    Nenu PM Kyle for the TItle You Pick.

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    All channels use the exact same amplifier circuit.
    If you have a problem with sound balance, check the amps config and all the wiring.
    Look for a way to reset the amp to default.
    If the problem persists then it could be that one speaker is near a wall or has a table below. The reflected sound doubles up how loud some frequencies are.
    If there is no apparent reason there could be a fault in the amp or a speaker.


    If you squeeze an AV amp into a rack you risk fire even if it isnt a generally hot running amp.
    Never do this, always leave room for air to circulate/escape above the amp.
    Powerful equipment especially.
    If it runs hot you reduce its life, no 2 ways about it.

    My amp runs quite warm on idle and can get pretty hot under load.
    I have a DAC sat on top of it so I have raised the DAC on rubber tap washers (to further isolate vibration) and inserted an LED lit Bitfenix 230mm fan between them drawing air out of the rear of the amps top surface.
    The DAC isnt as deep as the amp so there is plenty of free space above the fan for air to escape even though part of the fan is covered by the DAC.

    Fans sat directly on top of an amp make a lot more noise than if there is a slight gap.
    If you cant get the fan to run slow enough and it is noisy, raising it slightly will help and still have a cooling effect.
    It doesnt need much air flow to make a big difference.
    I put a voltage controller on the fan and set it to the minimum speed that keeps the LEDs alive (an indicator the fan is running).
    The fan is silent and very effective.
     
  20. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    the height of my current rack is 7.5" approx. If I go w/ the Denon, which is 6.5", it has 1" gap. That's what I have on my current yamaha and the old Sony in the past 19 years. The Sony last about 15 years or so.

    As to the first part of my question, I think you mis understand what I'm trying to say: does the overall receiver adjust the demand of wattage ? for e.g., say all speakers are 8 ohm. And I use 5.1 setup. Say the rear left / right is rated at a max. of 100W but only uses 70W from such and such movies.

    Now, say the front left / right is rated at a max. of 180W and the center chnl. is 600W. Will the receiver transfer more power to the front left / center / right? OR does it only goes up to the max. wattage per channel
     
  21. |Tch0rT|

    |Tch0rT| [H]ard|Gawd

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    You're overthinking the wattage aspect. Ever since the Dolby Digital days with multiple discrete channels all of them in the receiver have identical power output since they're spec'd the full 20Hz - 20kHz frequency band. The center channel is not just vocals and it's the most important speaker in a surround sound setup. There's a lot more information in the surrounds than you think. You need an SPL meter or someting and make sure they all output the same dB level. The sensitivity rating for your speakers are more important than the wattage, most modern receivers can handle most speakers as long as they don't have wild impedance swings (like ESL's) or low ohm (4ohm) speakers. Wattage is even less important if you're using a powered sub.
     
  22. |Tch0rT|

    |Tch0rT| [H]ard|Gawd

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    You don't understand this stuff. Stop worrying about the wattage. It seems like you're confusing max power handing of the speaker with how much power it actually uses. Your center channel will likely NEVER see 600watts even if you have a 600 watt amp on it, not that it matters cuz by then you'll probably be deaf. The speakers will draw as much power as they need to produce the sound at the volume you've set it to and you'll be using a lot less than you think. What matters is all the channels are SPL matched. Use this to roughly determine how much power you actually need for the size of your room and listening distance: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
     
  23. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    what if the speaker says its "nominal impedance is 4 Ohm/ 8 Ohm"

    what does that really means? Is it 4 or is it 8?

    as to that calculator, it shows dB SPL at listening position is 122.7dB. But that's just for 1 speaker. So I don't think I know how to use that calculator. What do you do w/ the other 5 speakers? do we do all 6 and take the average?
     
  24. |Tch0rT|

    |Tch0rT| [H]ard|Gawd

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    It's hard telling. What speakers do you have or plan to get? 122dB is loud really fucking loud. No you don't average it, it adds to it. Anyway generally with the level matching with an SPL meter it's to 75dB, though most people prefer more for the sub channel.
     
  25. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    https://www.focal.com/en/home-audio...000-be-2/surround-speakers/electra-sr-1000-be

    this is the pair. It says on the spec. sheet "nominal impedance is 4 Ohm/ 8 Ohm"

    as to that calculator, it's possible I don't know how to use it:

    I type in the speaker sensitivity from the Focal website, then I type in 700W from the Denon website, Distance is say 6 ft., and No. of speaker is 6, and I click "Near a Wall", and that 122.7dB is what the calculator shows. Did I make a mistake in typing those no.?
     
  26. |Tch0rT|

    |Tch0rT| [H]ard|Gawd

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    Yeah, you entered it wrong. So you're just looking at those bipolar Focal surrounds? You'd only enter the amount for 1 channel, not the entire power of the receiver. It's hard saying about the impedance without a graph but it's probably mostly averages to 8ohms and swings down to 4ohm probably with the lower end of the bass, so if you have a sub it would mostly stay around 8ohm. The calculator is a 1w/1m sensitivity but most measure that now at 2.83v/1m. This isn't exact but I knocked 3dB down off the rating from 91dB to 88dB for a "worse case scenario" and got 115dB with your parameters and using the 2 channels driven at 140watts. Even if it does 100 watts x 6 all channels driven you're still at 113.5dB. Those will work fine with it, especially with a sub. Personally I find 85dB to be loud with mids and highs but I can take bass up to 140dB (unlikely in a home, tested a car once). Over 85dB starts messing with your hearing threshold. You're fine, if that's what you want get it and hopefully you enjoy it. You shouldn't have any problems unless you really like to crank it to the point of your neighbors calling the police or something.
     
  27. Happy Hopping

    Happy Hopping [H]ardness Supreme

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    the sub is active, what's the sub going to do w/ the above pair speaker dancing between 4 Ohm vs. 8 Ohm?
     
  28. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The sub has nothing to do with the main speakers impedance shifts.

    The LFE out will send a signal with limited amount of voltage to the amp inside the sub.
     
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