I hope Mantle fails miserably.

S

Stoly

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Jul 26, 2005
Messages
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Before anyone accuses me of Trolling, this is not it (ok maybe a little)

Mantel may bring great things to the table, but unfortunately its propietary, MS is not going for it, and next gen consoles are not using it either.

But still, even if Mantel fails, I think it will force DirectX and OpenGl to become a "lower level" API and bring the benefits of Mantle to windows, linux and other platforms.
 
I love how you were able to switch between correct and incorrect spelling of the API's name multiple times.
 
DirectX is bad, new versions are bound to new OS. And Microsoft does not care about DirectX, they would rather work on the Xbox One and make more money off games.

I'd rather see people use OpenGL more, but more APIs isn't a bad thing. With the Steam OS, OpenGL is a good option to use.
 
G-sync is also proprietary and 400 dollars.

What's the point of this thread? You mad about the 290X launch or you just drink the grown up version of hater-aid for the first time today...
 
PcZac said:
DirectX is bad, new versions are bound to new OS. And Microsoft does not care about DirectX, they would rather work on the Xbox One and make more money off games.

I'd rather see people use OpenGL more, but more APIs isn't a bad thing. With the Steam OS, OpenGL is a good option to use.
Click to expand...

Microsoft really don't make much in the way of money off Xbox games, in fact investors would be fairly pleased if the entire Xbox business unit was spun off from the company as it's seen as a potential financial liability.
 
Kor said:
Microsoft really don't make much in the way of money off Xbox games, in fact investors would be fairly pleased if the entire Xbox business unit was spun off from the company as it's seen as a potential financial liability.
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My main point is Microsoft does not aggressively develop or upgrade DirectX, and they mostly use it as a way to nudge gamers to use their latest OS.
 
h8ABFF5C6
 
Mantle failing wouldn't make DX better, it'd be the opposite. MS would think there's nothing wrong with it and wouldn't make an effort to improve it.
 
PcZac said:
My main point is Microsoft does not aggressively develop or upgrade DirectX, and they mostly use it as a way to nudge gamers to use their latest OS.
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The new XBone uses DirectX 11.x something so that is about as far as Microsoft is going to take it. Just wait and you will see how much DX stagnates in the next few years. Bet you haven't heard anything about the next major DX release have you? ;)
 
Stoly said:
Before anyone accuses me of Trolling, this is not it (ok maybe a little)

Mantel may bring great things to the table, but unfortunately its propietary, MS is not going for it, and next gen consoles are not using it either.

But still, even if Mantel fails, I think it will force DirectX and OpenGl to become a "lower level" API and bring the benefits of Mantle to windows, linux and other platforms.
Click to expand...

SMH

Mantle IS, in essence, the low level API present in DirectX 11.x found in the XBONE. DirectX 11.x is a SUPERSET of 11.2. What else is included in 11.x besides the 11.2 subest? The freakin' low-level graphics libraries that allow close to metal programming for GCN cores, also a subset. The PC-side marketing name for these libraries and tools that allow developers to port to Windows is called...Project Mantle.

Got it?

And for OpenGL and DirectX to do the same thing they'd have to get more proprietary, hence their reason for even existing to begin with - to allow for a wide range of compatibility, which is their greatest asset and greatest weakness.

Ya dig?
 
PcZac said:
My main point is Microsoft does not aggressively develop or upgrade DirectX, and they mostly use it as a way to nudge gamers to use their latest OS.
Click to expand...

If what you are saying is so true, then why is there so little adoption and pursuit of OpenGL? It has been around forever. There have been plenty of other proprietary and open attempts at APIs. But none of them have come close fo the features and functionality of DirectX. But as you say...Microsoft has done nothing with it...

I just love how people want to hate on DirectX simply because it was proprietary, whereas it was one of the main things that pushed gaming and graphics cards ahead quite a bit.
 
@ OP... As long as you also want PhysX, Cuda, & G-Sync to fail miserably as well, then you might be able to validate this thread a little bit. If not... your motives are easily questionable.
 
Priller said:
G-sync is also proprietary and 400 dollars.

What's the point of this thread? You mad about the 290X launch or you just drink the grown up version of hater-aid for the first time today...
Click to expand...

Well IMO the ONLY real benefits of Mantle is performance, and taking advantage of AMD specific features.

It won't help with cross platform developement since its NOT used in consoles.

It won't make developement easier as at least at first you'll have to code everything.

libraries will be few, even if there are development tools they won't compare to the tools MS, Intel or even nvidia provide.

Remember that the 360 became the favorite console for developers simply because it was much easier to program for. MS provided a framework and DX tools which not only make it easy to make games for the 360 but also to port it to the PC with little effort.
 
Stoly said:
Before anyone accuses me of Trolling, this is not it (ok maybe a little)

Mantel may bring great things to the table, but unfortunately its propietary, MS is not going for it, and next gen consoles are not using it either.

But still, even if Mantel fails, I think it will force DirectX and OpenGl to become a "lower level" API and bring the benefits of Mantle to windows, linux and other platforms.
Click to expand...

Uh, Mantle can't be anything but proprietary because it is tightly linked to a specific GPU architecture. You can't make it AMD-Nvidia compatible in a useful way.

G-Sync, on the other hand, has no reason to be proprietary because it is something any GPU and monitor could be able to support.

Mantle is just another choice, G-Sync is limiting them.
 
I agree though...what is the point of a proprietary low level API that only works on PCs and on a small number of cards?

Microsofts new version of DirectX makes more sense.
 
Meeho said:
Uh, Mantle can't be anything but proprietary because it is tightly linked to a specific GPU architecture. You can't make it AMD-Nvidia compatible in a useful way.

G-Sync, on the other hand, has no reason to be proprietary because it is something any GPU and monitor could be able to support.

Mantle is just another choice, G-Sync is limiting them.
Click to expand...

G-sync is also another choice. There are monitor that don't use G-sync, you know?
 
There is no reason for it not to be compatible with everything. You can't make a low level API that fits every GPU.
 
Meeho said:
There is no reason for it not to be compatible with everything. You can't make a low level API that fits every GPU.
Click to expand...

Mixing your negatives there, I'm not sure if you're agreeing that Mantle could be open, or disagreeing. (I'm assuming disagreeing.)
 
Why would you want it to fail miserably? Must not like change much? It only brings good things to the table imo. Nobody is going to force you to use it, you can still obviously use dx or ogl if you want. I look forward to it, and I hope it does well. Who gives a shit if it is proprietary, if you want a amd card it's just an extra perk. Right now nvidia has it's hardware physx (or however the hell they spell that shit). Wild guess, it's not going to fail. Time will tell. I'm glad it will work with my 7870, because then when I get my 290x I'll have 2 rigs making use of it. I don't see how more options are ever a bad thing.
 
Meeho said:
There is no reason for it not to be compatible with everything. You can't make a low level API that fits every GPU.
Click to expand...

Well, afaik nvidia is considering licensing the technology.
 
ITSTHINKING said:
Why would you want it to fail miserably? Must not like change much? It only brings good things to the table imo. Nobody is going to force you to use it, you can still obviously use dx or ogl if you want. I look forward to it, and I hope it does well. Who gives a shit if it is proprietary, if you want a amd card it's just an extra perk. Right now nvidia has it's hardware physx (or however the hell they spell that shit). Wild guess, it's not going to fail. Time will tell. I'm glad it will work with my 7870, because then when I get my 290x I'll have 2 rigs making use of it. I don't see how more options are ever a bad thing.
Click to expand...

For mantle to fail, a better alternative should surface, a compromise has to be made.
DX and OpenGl may not be able to give direct access to hardware, but there could be other ways to reduce overhead. Hooks could be implemented to provide DMA access to the GPU.

If only MS/khronos, amd, nvidia and intel could collaborate to make a better API
 
Priller said:
G-sync is also proprietary and 400 dollars.

What's the point of this thread? You mad about the 290X launch or you just drink the grown up version of hater-aid for the first time today...
Click to expand...

lol...G-Sync should be closer to ~$100 per module/kit as it is $399 for a VG248QE monitor with it already installed. (Compared to it's standard $280 - $300 cost.
 
Stoly said:
It won't help with cross platform developement since its NOT used in consoles.

It won't make developement easier as at least at first you'll have to code everything.
.
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I think they have been saying that it is close to what is being used in the consoles yeah? I don't really have any interest in it until we see what (if anything) it brings to the table so I don't take much notice. But from the later bits that had AMD talking about it, I thought they were implying that it would make cross platform easier. I could be completely wrong but I don't think you have a great grasp of what's going on either considering how little technical information you present. Its natural to be a bit scared about something new I suppose, but personally I don't think it's going to do too much damage to nVidia at all. They are a graphics super power, they'll survive and prosper. Hopefully it is good for the industry and hopefully it does something for AMD because they've seemingly been on the ropes in the recent past..

In short, Mantle is a new and better way to bring the code developers are already writing for next-generation consoles to life on the PC. It achieves this by being similar to, and often compatible with, the code they are already writing for those platforms.
Click to expand...
AMD quoted on Anandtech

Anyway I've clearly got too much time on my hands, since I am reading threads like this.. I feel bad about myself now..:eek:
 
Stoly said:
Before anyone accuses me of Trolling, this is not it (ok maybe a little)

Mantel may bring great things to the table, but unfortunately its propietary, MS is not going for it, and next gen consoles are not using it either.

But still, even if Mantel fails, I think it will force DirectX and OpenGl to become a "lower level" API and bring the benefits of Mantle to windows, linux and other platforms.
Click to expand...

I want mantle to succeed brilliantly so I can collect the tears of nvidia fanboys and drink them while playing mantle infused BF4.

Those tears... they taste like candy!
 
Meeho said:
There is no reason for it not to be compatible with everything. You can't make a low level API that fits every GPU.
Click to expand...

API wise, I don't think it will look supremely different than what we have now. The interface is not the problem.

The point is a thinner driver layer by pushing the responsibility into the application rather than the driver. For instance DX / OGL provide a certain bit of hand holding, and make it a bit more difficult to blow your leg off. You fucked up somewhere and forgot to bind some kind of render resource? Maybe you have an invalid parameter somewhere? You may just get nothing on screen as a result, but will otherwise behave and run fine. Mantle may just trust that you're not feeding it garbage... and if you do, welp, down in flames you go.
 
sobe88 said:
lol...G-Sync should be closer to ~$100 per module/kit as it is $399 for a VG248QE monitor with it already installed. (Compared to it's standard $280 - $300 cost.
Click to expand...

Guess you can't comprehend very well so I'll explain better.

You can buy the G Sync module for 100 dollars, that's great. I want to see you plug that into your GPU and see how it works for ya but since you will need a monitor to actually display anything then you need to spend 400 dollars(you said 399) to have G Sync. You may be able to retrofit current displays but I have yet to see that list.

So as it stands you will have to spend 400 dollars for G Sync.
 
Stoly said:
Well IMO the ONLY real benefits of Mantle is performance, and taking advantage of AMD specific features.

It won't help with cross platform developement since its NOT used in consoles.

It won't make developement easier as at least at first you'll have to code everything.

libraries will be few, even if there are development tools they won't compare to the tools MS, Intel or even nvidia provide.

Remember that the 360 became the favorite console for developers simply because it was much easier to program for. MS provided a framework and DX tools which not only make it easy to make games for the 360 but also to port it to the PC with little effort.
Click to expand...

So you dont like performance.... Who needs a good GPU now days... Nvidia has several features that is Nvidia only and leaves out AMD, don't get mad if AMD pulls an "Nvidia".

Who says it wont help cross platform development? Do you know if it wont be used in consoles at all? They are based on AMD equipment.

So now you know the development tools wont compare to something that doesnt exist?

Remember that by programming "Close to the metal" it becomes easier to program and optimization becomes easier. AMD hardware with programming helped by AMD.

If Mantle is on PC and AMD helps with some of the consoles then how hard do you think it will be to port down to Xbone or PS4.
 
Most of you people are completely wrong on this one ;).

Where does Mantle originate ? Mantle is what it is called on the PC side. This low level API of course was made to work on the console that there is a PC version with a different name then what is out there on the console should not surprise any of you.

If AMD has an API both on console and PC is there a logical argument that would make them so much different that to make it work from console->PC or vice versa would mean even more work then if there was no API ?

So it is close enough to make it work.

What people are wrong about all the time it seems is that Mantle somehow will dominate the next gen gaming market and this unfounded fear is puzzling. on the PC software developers need to make money , long story short Mantle does not get them money.

So how is Mantle a threat? It is just a piece of optimization which comes in handy for "under performing" AMD hardware..
 
Pieter3dnow said:
Most of you people are completely wrong on this one ;).

Where does Mantle originate ? Mantle is what it is called on the PC side. This low level API of course was made to work on the console that there is a PC version with a different name then what is out there on the console should not surprise any of you.

If AMD has an API both on console and PC is there a logical argument that would make them so much different that to make it work from console->PC or vice versa would mean even more work then if there was no API ?

So it is close enough to make it work.

What people are wrong about all the time it seems is that Mantle somehow will dominate the next gen gaming market and this unfounded fear is puzzling. on the PC software developers need to make money , long story short Mantle does not get them money.

So how is Mantle a threat? It is just a piece of optimization which comes in handy for "under performing" AMD hardware..
Click to expand...

mantle can make devs/publishers money. because some people dont buy shitty ports.

if its runs better and smoother on mantle then they are more likely to buy your game.
 
Priller said:
Who says it wont help cross platform development? Do you know if it wont be used in consoles at all? They are based on AMD equipment.
Click to expand...

From twitter

‏@AMDRadeon
@killyourfm @francmoo Mantle is NOT in consoles. What Mantle creates for the PC (cont'd: http:///1cPyE89 ) ^RH

So the answer is NO it won't be used in consoles at all.
 
I hope Mantle fails miserably.
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Me too. I don't like things running faster. I like slow.

Stoly said:
MS is not going for it, and next gen consoles are not using it either.
Click to expand...

Also reading is hard.

Mantle is a new and better way to bring the code developers are already writing for next-generation consoles to life on the PC. It achieves this by being similar to, and often compatible with, the code they are already writing for those platforms.
Click to expand...
 
Priller said:
So now you know the development tools wont compare to something that doesnt exist?
Click to expand...
Thanks for making my point, Exactly, the tools don't exist, It will take time for them to be made and reach the point of maturity the MS/intel tools provide.
 
Pieter3dnow said:
Most of you people are completely wrong on this one ;).

Where does Mantle originate ? Mantle is what it is called on the PC side. This low level API of course was made to work on the console that there is a PC version with a different name then what is out there on the console should not surprise any of you.

If AMD has an API both on console and PC is there a logical argument that would make them so much different that to make it work from console->PC or vice versa would mean even more work then if there was no API ?

So it is close enough to make it work.

What people are wrong about all the time it seems is that Mantle somehow will dominate the next gen gaming market and this unfounded fear is puzzling. on the PC software developers need to make money , long story short Mantle does not get them money.

So how is Mantle a threat? It is just a piece of optimization which comes in handy for "under performing" AMD hardware..
Click to expand...

Except Mantle is NOT for consoles.
 
Priller said:
If Mantle is on PC and AMD helps with some of the consoles then how hard do you think it will be to port down to Xbone or PS4.
Click to expand...

Well, since Mantle is not on consoles then its anyones guess.

I don't know about the PS4 but since xbone games will be made in XNA (.net) just like 360 games, I'm sure it will be easier just recompiling .net and making optimizations than making a port from XNA to mantle.
 
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