Hyperloop Makes the Bullet Train Look Like a Steam Locomotive

[CommanderFrank]

Thought you had heard the last of Elon Musk’s Hyperloop; well, guess again. The Hyperloop feasibility has resurfaced once again during discussions of the proposed high speed rail line connecting San Francisco with Los Angeles. Don’t count the Hyperloop concept out just yet.

 

[Ducman69]

Musk says the Hyperloop would cost $7.5 billion to build, versus $68 billion for the high-speed rail line.

Good. Cost, safety, cost! That's what matters more than speed. To be effective, you need high speed rail connecting every major city, not just hippies in one town with metrosexuals in a neighboring one. To achieve that, it has to be cost effective, and it only would take a couple disasters to deter people from using it, so safety is also important.

So if Elon wants to impress realists, he needs to elaborate more on exactly HOW his hyperloop is so much less expensive to implement than traditional rail, otherwise it just looks like he pulled a number out of his ass.

 

[RogueKitsune]

Not gonna lie when i first read the title of the article I was like why do you want a bullet train that looks like a steam locomotive.

But it would be nice to see how this exotic idea would actually be cheaper than a rail solution.

 

[cyclone3d]

Here is one word...

earthquake.

What exactly would happen to a train going 220Mph.. much less 700Mph if an earthquake happened close enough while it was in operation? It would take quite a while for either to come to a stop.

The tube thing.. while it sounds cool, is a disaster waiting to happen. Any failure of the tube anywhere on the line would cause a disaster.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

Looking at the block diagram of what powers it I started to shake my head no...............
An axial compressor on the front end will compress air. What powers this? Electric?
And axial compressor is what a jet engine compresses air for combustion. To powering the compressor consumes MORE POWER than the engine produces in thrust. Keep in mind the development of highly efficient axial compressors has been going on for 70 years.

 

[Jagger100]

All the passenger concepts only show a handful of passengers. It a toy for the rich.

 

[Quix]

All the passenger concepts only show a handful of passengers. It a toy for the rich.

Not possible, it's so big they'd need economies of scale to make it make any sense. If you read up on this they're not planning on sending one car at a time, they can send them every 100 meters or so, the capacity could be huge.

 

[Iratus]

Good. Cost, safety, cost! That's what matters more than speed. To be effective, you need high speed rail connecting every major city, not just hippies in one town with metrosexuals in a neighboring one. To achieve that, it has to be cost effective, and it only would take a couple disasters to deter people from using it, so safety is also important.

So if Elon wants to impress realists, he needs to elaborate more on exactly HOW his hyperloop is so much less expensive to implement than traditional rail, otherwise it just looks like he pulled a number out of his ass.

Cheaper infrastructure and trains probably.

If it's not a 400 ton train then it is a lot easier to build the bridges and paths for it, you don't need so much aggregate underneath it, heavy bridges, etc etc etc. It's the landworks that cost the money on transport projects.

There's also a side benefit of high speed small things that you can take a bit more flexibility in routing, having tighter radius curves than long trains, looping round large things rather than digging through them. That sort of stuff. Plus you don't share tracks and attendant signalling challenges.

Obviously though it'd be way more than he reckons. But overall there is logic in why it could be cheaper (to build). The flip side is that it'd probably be pretty expensive to use due to comparatively low passenger numbers.

 

[J So]

If anyone is actually paying attention they would know it's NOT a bullet train and it's not going from San Jose to Hollywood. It's a giant boondoggle that puts a train in freaking Bakersfield!

This is a giant money grab from the State. Hey Jerry Brown, the 1800s called and they want their tech back! Why would I pay MORE to ride a train and then have to rent a car at my destination instead of flying for less and the flying takes less time?

 

[sfsuphysics]

So if Elon wants to impress realists, he needs to elaborate more on exactly HOW his hyperloop is so much less expensive to implement than traditional rail, otherwise it just looks like he pulled a number out of his ass.

Yeah I'm pretty sure the lions share in cost for the bullet train is procuring right-of-way rights from local land owners and what not.

Elon should have built a proof of concept, maybe 1:6 scale to show that his idea actually works. Then you can brag about cost, as it stands like yous said just sounds like he's pulling a number out.

 

[Geef]

They should have one end of it in Las Vegas and then the other ends in other states, I bet Vegas would be happy to fund something like that for additional vacationers.

 

[Skripka]

Elon Musk is so cool and busy he doesn't even need to bother trying to build his quack pipe dream.

 

[sfsuphysics]

If anyone is actually paying attention they would know it's NOT a bullet train and it's not going from San Jose to Hollywood. It's a giant boondoggle that puts a train in freaking Bakersfield!

This is a giant money grab from the State. Hey Jerry Brown, the 1800s called and they want their tech back! Why would I pay MORE to ride a train and then have to rent a car at my destination instead of flying for less and the flying takes less time?

Yeah the initial talks to bring it through Fresno and a couple other central valley locations should have been a huge wakeup call that this is simply what politicians do, they push and "negotiate" to get a piece of the pie. No one from the major areas (Sac, SF Bay, Los Angeles) wants to go anywhere near the central valley except maybe to just fly through it at top speed, but oh yeah, lets make sure Fresno has a stop.

 

[Spidey329]

They should have one end of it in Las Vegas and then the other ends in other states, I bet Vegas would be happy to fund something like that for additional vacationers.

There's a company doing a high-speed rail between LA/Vegas and Phx/Vegas. If I recall.

http://www.xpresswest.com/

Now, it would be a good place to test the hyperloop idea, as it is a lot of vacant desert land. Easy to build until you get to the mountains.

 

[J So]

Yeah the initial talks to bring it through Fresno and a couple other central valley locations should have been a huge wakeup call that this is simply what politicians do, they push and "negotiate" to get a piece of the pie. No one from the major areas (Sac, SF Bay, Los Angeles) wants to go anywhere near the central valley except maybe to just fly through it at top speed, but oh yeah, lets make sure Fresno has a stop.

The current cost of the project is 67.6 BILLION dollars for a train that cost more a plane ticket and takes longer! The State would have been better off giving Southwest the 67.6 billion to increase flights and subsidise airfare.

Seriously who is going to take a 4 hour train ride to Southern California at the cost of 242.00 round trip. From San Jose to Hollywood it takes 5 hours to freaking DRIVE there and you have a car with you once you get there!

Flying takes 1.5 hours and we usually get 180.00 round trip tickets. There should be much more outrage over this than there is.

 

[icemunk]

I think the difference here is, if they CAN build such a working transportation system; that would boost America on the world stage again. The USA has fell behind in many aspects, especially modern transportation. Japan/China/Europe all have high-speed rail. Japan with it's maglev tech. Europe with its high-speed network, and even China has just recently been finishes the touches on 18,000km of highspeed rail (capable of 300-350km.h (190-220mph). It's time for the USA to step up and show they're innovative, strong, and able to lead the way in technology again.

 

[Jagger100]

Not possible, it's so big they'd need economies of scale to make it make any sense. If you read up on this they're not planning on sending one car at a time, they can send them every 100 meters or so, the capacity could be huge.

Operating costs would be pretty cheap. There's enough billionaires and near billionaires in the area that would pay for that part of it. Its Building the Tube that is expensive, but if he can sing & dance this as something mass transit and green, he will likely get it subsidized.

When these cars are moving at 300m a second, they won't have a 100m spacing. One car has a snafu, next thing you know 10 cars have match boxed each other before anyone can react and another 10 cars pile up before anything shutsdown. Even if that part was automated. People aren't going to unload at 3 cars a second and they're moving too fast for a switched track. And once they slow down to 1/100th of their speed (3m/s) which is still too fast for final approach, their spacing becomes 1m (front to front, not back to front). They would matchbox. Their rate would be the rate of a reasonable loading or egress of the car. About 4-5 minutes. 8 people at 5 minute intervals is 96 people/hr. Elon just wants to be able to hop between work in LA and home or night life in SF in 20 minutes and will get California to pay for it.

 

[Tweak42]

Really lame BI article void on any details. For all the naysayers and skeptics you should read the first part of the PDF for http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/hyperloop

Much of the *concept* is explained, however since there really is nothing even close to equivalent technology existing today, so alot of the ideas really needs to be built in small scale and tested 1st. One cannot go from concept to full scale construction of a completely new/untested travel concept.

I for one would love to see this built in something like a 20 mile loop test track to see if it fly inside of the low preasure tube.

 

[mrpc9886]

And the elephant in the room is...security. Pylons are vulnerable to terror attacks. Perhaps if the ROW was fully enclosed by high security fencing with ground sensors and monitoring and how much would all that add to the cost.

All it would take to shut this down forever would be one successful or even partially successful attack. Imagine a capsule in free-flight through a breach.

 

[FndTheRver]

If anyone is actually paying attention they would know it's NOT a bullet train and it's not going from San Jose to Hollywood. It's a giant boondoggle that puts a train in freaking Bakersfield!

This is a giant money grab from the State. Hey Jerry Brown, the 1800s called and they want their tech back! Why would I pay MORE to ride a train and then have to rent a car at my destination instead of flying for less and the flying takes less time?

You sound like a politician or farmer from the Central Valley who's butt hurt because the planners didn't put a stop right next to their front door or that someone wants to build something that's not a water canal near your house.

Let's not think about our future but keep using something that was invented 100 years ago to get around. Why do you think a huge portion of the children who grow up there have asthma? Because a shit ton of cars drive up and down the interstates all day and night.

 

[Jagger100]

Let's not think about our future but keep using something that was invented 100 years ago to get around. Why do you think a huge portion of the children who grow up there have asthma? Because a shit ton of cars drive up and down the interstates all day and night.

They use this 'tech' in my bank every day. Being scaled up to person size is like something out of Jules Verne.

And those kids don't have Asthma from any car built in the past 30 years.

If they have asthma from pollution, its either factory/industrial or from exempted cars like grandfathered cars from the 70's or beaters that need an emissions inspection, but most likely large trucks. But trucking companies have a viscious lobby, so its easy to blame cars.

 

[Ducman69]

And the elephant in the room is...security. Pylons are vulnerable to terror attacks. Perhaps if the ROW was fully enclosed by high security fencing with ground sensors and monitoring and how much would all that add to the cost.

All it would take to shut this down forever would be one successful or even partially successful attack. Imagine a capsule in free-flight through a breach.

How is blowing up a pylon easier than installing a simple train derail and painting it matte black? Train derails at 290mph or whatever these bullet trains go at would likely kill the majority of passengers.

The question would just be how quickly can a hyperloop decelerate, at which point you just build in some type of sensors that can automatically slow or emergency stop the train if a problem is detected ahead. *shrugs*

 

[blade52x]

Here is one word...

earthquake.

I'm thinking articulated buses. I'm sure the tubes will have some freedom to move relative to each other around if needed.

 

[Dildonose]

700 miles per hour is indeed impressive but it looks claustrophobic to me.

 

[sfsuphysics]

People aren't going to unload at 3 cars a second and they're moving too fast for a switched track. And once they slow down to 1/100th of their speed (3m/s) which is still too fast for final approach, their spacing becomes 1m (front to front, not back to front). They would matchbox. Their rate would be the rate of a reasonable loading or egress of the car. About 4-5 minutes. 8 people at 5 minute intervals is 96 people/hr.

I could envision a loading/unloading system that has a separate trackway than transportation track, branching off with a long stretch so that you could get unloading/loading done independently of how fast cars are moving along the mainline. Upside is that would be something that would make choosing where it stops a whole lot less of a hassle, it'd be along the lines of building a long freeway across the state, then as towns actually get large you can build exits/onramps as necessary.

Although that itself would bring in a whole different set of problems due to the nature of a sealed tube. Like I said, rather than throwing down theoretical models of how it'll work, just build a small scale version of this in a warehouse. Proof of concept is so much of a better sell than engineering plans.

Problem is this is bound to fail just like the high speed rail, the east coast corridor is somewhat feasible because people do commute up and down. People are not going to commute from San Jose to LA.

 

[Jaymzkerten]

And the elephant in the room is...security. Pylons are vulnerable to terror attacks. Perhaps if the ROW was fully enclosed by high security fencing with ground sensors and monitoring and how much would all that add to the cost.

All it would take to shut this down forever would be one successful or even partially successful attack. Imagine a capsule in free-flight through a breach.

Terrorists don't tend to attack something so small that it causes mostly property damage and only a few casualties, they tend to go big to make headlines. As someone else already mentioned a terrorist would be far more likely to want to derail a bullet train as there are more lives at stake and the destruction from the momentum of that train would be far more tremendous than a couple of pods getting lobbed out of the tubes. While it would be true that any nearby pods would likely not have enough time to stop, you have to figure that they will likely have sensors in the tubes that, when they detect even the tiniest anomaly in the system, would send a signal to all of the pods to immediately slow down or full stop.

Even if someone did bomb a pylon or a massive earthquake occurred nearby I could have sworn I read somewhere in that massive PDF on their site that the system is designed to withstand some pylons going out as well as having give for earthquakes.

 

[nutzo]

If anyone is actually paying attention they would know it's NOT a bullet train and it's not going from San Jose to Hollywood. It's a giant boondoggle that puts a train in freaking Bakersfield!

This is a giant money grab from the State. Hey Jerry Brown, the 1800s called and they want their tech back! Why would I pay MORE to ride a train and then have to rent a car at my destination instead of flying for less and the flying takes less time?

Exactly. This is more about paying off politically connected people than actually building anything.

Anyone who thinks rail is a good solution needs to actually take a long trip by rail. I took a trip from Orange County California to Seattle Washington a few years ago. It takes 34 hours (not including drive to/from the stations). Driving time is less than 18 hours. I won't even go into the high priced food, limited selection, the fact that they ran out of almost everything half way through the return trip, or that they couldn't check luggage through the connecting train on the way back.

 

[FndTheRver]

They use this 'tech' in my bank every day. Being scaled up to person size is like something out of Jules Verne.

And those kids don't have Asthma from any car built in the past 30 years.

If they have asthma from pollution, its either factory/industrial or from exempted cars like grandfathered cars from the 70's or beaters that need an emissions inspection, but most likely large trucks. But trucking companies have a viscious lobby, so its easy to blame cars.

So it's not okay for trucks to pollute but cars are just fine because they don't pollute as much? Do you work for a petrol lobby or something? If there's going to be something polluting the air, then it should at least move more than 1 person at a time.

 

[FndTheRver]

Anyone who thinks rail is a good solution needs to actually take a long trip by rail. I took a trip from Orange County California to Seattle Washington a few years ago. It takes 34 hours (not including drive to/from the stations). Driving time is less than 18 hours. I won't even go into the high priced food, limited selection, the fact that they ran out of almost everything half way through the return trip, or that they couldn't check luggage through the connecting train on the way back.

When there are faster trains, you won't have all these troubles. Sure at the beginning there'll be some adjustments that need to be made, but the problems you list here are pretty easy to fix.

 

[THRESHIN]

Here is one word...

earthquake.

What exactly would happen to a train going 220Mph.. much less 700Mph if an earthquake happened close enough while it was in operation? It would take quite a while for either to come to a stop.

The tube thing.. while it sounds cool, is a disaster waiting to happen. Any failure of the tube anywhere on the line would cause a disaster.

humans have been building earthquake resistant structures very well for many years now. it would be a challenge, yes. i don't think its impossible. as far as reliability, that's part of the technology Musk is trying to develop here. that's where innovation and all that fun stuff comes in.

if this is built, we may have a better way to travel. if it isn't, i can say for sure that we won't get that.

 

[EchtoGammut]

Since the bullet train will never get completed anyway, I would rather the billions go towards Elon's R&D project. At least some interesting tech might come out of him trying to figure out how the Hyperloop will work. Then in a couple of years, I can use his hyperloop or something similar in another country. I say this as a Californian who has seen this high speed train issue float around since the eighties.

 

[raz-0]

Good. Cost, safety, cost! That's what matters more than speed. To be effective, you need high speed rail connecting every major city, not just hippies in one town with metrosexuals in a neighboring one. To achieve that, it has to be cost effective, and it only would take a couple disasters to deter people from using it, so safety is also important.

So if Elon wants to impress realists, he needs to elaborate more on exactly HOW his hyperloop is so much less expensive to implement than traditional rail, otherwise it just looks like he pulled a number out of his ass.

He has previously. Basically by being elevated and covered in solar panels, a big chunk of savings comes form not having to eminent domain right of ways and other easement deals. He also factors in the fact that the tubes will be covered in solar panels to offset the operating costs. It's not unsound reasoning as the majority of cost is about making the real estate work for either project.

The real issue is what, if any, levels of improvement would you make on the existing, proven technology. There's also the secondary issue of will you be able to snag the footprint to make either of them work as intended, and which one is easier to do that. We got high speed rail here. No property for it, so they used exisitng rail lines. Whoo that 20mph boost form 60 to 80 was like being teleported to the future I tell you. It shaved nearly 30 minutes off the same train trip I took nigh on 30 years ago. And they say it couldn't be done.

 

[nutzo]

When there are faster trains, you won't have all these troubles. Sure at the beginning there'll be some adjustments that need to be made, but the problems you list here are pretty easy to fix.

Except they have already dumbed down this so-called high speed train to use existing rail lines, and of course run a lot slower.

If they where to build what was promised, i.e. a real high speed train, it would be fast enough to be competitive. The problem is the cost would be so high that it would never make money.

 

[arthur_tuxedo]

High speed rail in California has become everyone's favorite whipping post because conservatives have torn into it as government encroachment, boondoggle, etc. and the pro-rail people have done almost zero public outreach to counter the offensive. Unless something like Hyperloop pans out (IIRC they still need to solve the heat buildup issue), we will absolutely need HSR by the time it is complete, and if the project gets killed we will be majorly screwed in 20-30 years due to population growth. We will either need to spend ~$400 billion expanding the highway system (vs $68b estimated for HSR) or build new airports, as the SF<->LA air corridor is already at capacity and cannot accommodate a significant increase in travelers. Either alternative will cost many times the price of HSR, and both are significantly inferior (or will be by the 2030's).

Car travel is much slower and less efficient, while air travel will become significantly more expensive as fuel prices continue their long upward trend. Trains are also much quicker than planes to board and prepare, and a train station with its smaller footprint can be affordably located much closer to population centers than an airport, so an SFO->LAX plane's 1:10 hour flight time turns into a doorstep-to-doorstep travel time of 4-5 hours, while a HSR train's 2:20 hour travel time turns into 3-4 hours total. If Hyperloop pans out, that would be fantastic. If not, HSR is the only good option.

 

[TwistedAegis]

As a proponent of HSR, I still don't know where I stand on the "HSR" in California. It's been so dumbed down, and costs so inflated, not sure where I stand. Plus, the fed gov't demanded that in order to receive the fed matching funds, construction had to start within some shorter period of time. So due to the property/right of way issues, the first line is going from bumfuck nowhere to bumfuck nowhere in the Central Valley, aka the armpit of California.

Having ridden real HSR from Beijing to Shanghai, it's freaking amazing. That being said, if we muck it up here in the states and add airport style security, lines and queuing, we'll fuck it all up again.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Except they have already dumbed down this so-called high speed train to use existing rail lines, and of course run a lot slower.

If they where to build what was promised, i.e. a real high speed train, it would be fast enough to be competitive. The problem is the cost would be so high that it would never make money.

Ah... it wasn't a "dumbing down" it was a "bait and switch" voters put money on a high speed rail project connecting (etc etc)... but they decide to funnel money to those other transit agencies. It's the same as the local bus or subway municipalities getting a piece of all the transportation infrastructure money, on the surface people expect money to fix roads and have things run smooth, reality is union bus drivers get raises.

 

[nutzo]

High speed rail in California has become everyone's favorite whipping post because conservatives have torn into it as government encroachment, boondoggle, etc. and the pro-rail people have done almost zero public outreach to counter the offensive.

Car travel is much slower and less efficient, while air travel will become significantly more expensive as fuel prices continue their long upward trend. Trains are also much quicker than planes to board and prepare, and a train station with its smaller footprint can be affordably located much closer to population centers than an airport, so an SFO->LAX plane's 1:10 hour flight time turns into a doorstep-to-doorstep travel time of 4-5 hours, while a HSR train's 2:20 hour travel time turns into 3-4 hours total.

Sounds like you have never taken a trip on a US (Amtrak) train before.
While it's nice they don't have the TSA (yet) you still need to get there early enough to check your bags (if you need to). Travel to the station takes just as long as to the airport depending on where you live. The trains also have a number of stops that slows them even more.

As for space, these small stations are only handling 2-4 trains a day. If you had the passenger volume of even 1/10 of a local airport the train stations would be a mess.

If they where really going to build what they promised (an actual high speed rail line up the middle of California that could compete with the airlines, and they could do it for close to what they promised, I'd be in full support.
The problem is that the cost is already 3-4 times as much as promised, and it's no longer high speed rail. It is going to use existing rail lines in many places. It will also run through many existing town, which will limit the speed (due to noise).

The real problem is that unlike the east coast, there is no large volume of people going from one place to another (like from the suburbs downtown New York). Travel in California is largely from many to many points. Trains and light rail just don't work in most cases, as there at not enough people taking the same trip every day.

 

[sleepeeg3]

You sound like a politician or farmer from the Central Valley who's butt hurt because the planners didn't put a stop right next to their front door or that someone wants to build something that's not a water canal near your house.

Let's not think about our future but keep using something that was invented 100 years ago to get around. Why do you think a huge portion of the children who grow up there have asthma? Because a shit ton of cars drive up and down the interstates all day and night.

Trains are newer than 100 years ago? Lol!

I'm sure he is as pissed as me that California is spending 3/4 of a year's revenue to fund a train that has all of the problems he just said ...and I can almost guarantee will never get built. I watch Amtrak roll by my place every day carrying no more than 12 passengers and costs $48 taxpayer subsidized dollars and 3 1/2 hours to shuttle passengers from Orange County to San Diego. On top of that, you have no car. My average efficiency Ford Mustang would do the trip in less time for $23.77. Why would anyone take the train?

A bullet train has the same problem, it is just competing with airplanes.

If there's going to be something polluting the air, then it should at least move more than 1 person at a time.

They're called "cars." Lol!

Musk's idea is stupid for many reasons, most of which revolve around the inevitable natural and man-made disasters with the whole concept. Too many things could go wrong, earthquakes derailing, bodies baking in the desert or suffocating in an enclosed capsule. Dumb idea.

 

[Grahamkracka]

Engineering something like that to stand up to an earthquakes or other natural disasters is definitely feasible, nor do I think such a system would be inherently unsafe. I'm more curious as to how they would handle the forward pressure inside the tube. The airflow is bound to be supersonic and at those speeds, the density of the air would be approaching that of a liquid. Add in an enclosed tube then you would need really, really strong materials, an exceptionally precise constructed tube (likely with some unique geometry as well) and a very aerodynamically sound vessel to make it even feasible. Something of this nature would not cost $7.5 billion to construct as there would be a lot of unproven tech (at least in this setting). I doubt it'd even be cheaper than the HSR as currently proposed.

 

[mrpc9886]

File the story under "Everything Old Is New Again". A similar concept was presented in 1953 with R.A. Heinlein's "Starman Jones":
https://plus.google.com/photos/116637781725296267499/albums/5322177425613322177?banner=pwa