Hydrogen-Powered Hybrid Car Does 450+ HP

Terry Olaes

Terry Olaes

I Used to be the [H] News Guy
Joined
Nov 27, 2006
Messages
4,646
Anyone hear of Ronn Motor Company or their debut product, the Scorpion? Neither have I. According to their site, the Scorpion will be a mid-engine, hydrogen fuel injected hybrid. Judging by the debate last time I mentioned a hydrogen-powered vehicle, I’d hazard a guess that some of you would be skeptical.

It will feature the latest in engine technology from Acura®, utilizing the new aluminum and magnesium V-Tech, Type S V-6 motor. This engine produces nearly 300 horsepower stock and with our twin turbo option, over 450 horsepower. The Scorpion will feature our new and exclusive Hydrogen Fuel Injection (HFI) fuel delivery system. The system provides Hydrogen on demand, which is injected directly into the motor.
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Did anyone even notice this:
It's V-tec, not V-tech. V-tech is a phone! Might as well called it VTACK.
There is your sign that this is fake or a scam! They can't even spell the engine technology in the engine they are using.
 
It won't be able to create a lot of H2 with on-board electrolysis and that will not be tremendously efficient. This means there won't be much capacity for hydrogen-only combustion - it will realistically be used for H2 +O2 injection into the air fuel mix. Supposedly, this increases efficiency by accelerating the combustion of the air + gasoline due to the very rapid and high-temperature combustion of the H2. With this combination, NOx and H embrittlement issues are avoided. I don't know what they've done (if anything) about pure H2 combustion problems.

The transit company in my area tested Diesel buses with this kind of hydrogen generator on the engines and are still evaluating the results. I've heard differing views on the real-world efficiency improvements based on this technology. It sounds plausible but...

Mythbusters tested such a rig but they completely misunderstood how it worked and didn't evaluate it properly.
 
I have been thinking about one of the electrolysis add-on for my own use, my car get's such shit gas mileage it would have to help, and according to everyone using them, they seem to get around 40% better mileage (That would bring me close to 20 MPG or so).

The good thing...I don't need the turbo option either, already have over 400 HP. (LS2 TBSS)
 
Michael Daly said:
Mythbusters tested such a rig but they completely misunderstood how it worked and didn't evaluate it properly.
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I was feeling skeptical about their tests as well. I guess we'll see what it does when it's in production or in a dealer near you?
 
I don't mean to double post but I just noticed your post BBA.

BBA said:
I have been thinking about one of the electrolysis add-on for my own use, my car get's such shit gas mileage it would have to help, and according to everyone using them, they seem to get around 40% better mileage (That would bring me close to 20 MPG or so).

The good thing...I don't need the turbo option either, already have over 400 HP. (LS2 TBSS)
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Can you elaborate on this? I heard of these methods but I haven't been sure about where to find a credible source. I have a Chrysler 440 myself, and I wouldn't mind a bump in mileage myself.
 
Actually bring one to market, then we'll talk. Anybody can talk a good game, and Ronn is far from the first. Why am I skeptical? Firstly, no mention of actual engineering feats or specialties. Their big names consist of one guy; Damon Kuhn (Diamondback Engines.) It is very hard to overlook a complete lack of shots that do not appear to be renders rather than real photos of even a clay mockup, or bodywork-only pre-production. In fact, their main marketing photo is rather obviously a render. (The green and black.)
All the news is investor geared. ATG is a legitimate company and a big name, but generally you don't announce that you're announcing that you're looking at starting testing in August when you're saying a 2009 production run. (Also, remember, testing for limited production vehicles is different from mass production. That's why the Shelby Series 1 was crash tested on Cray with no vehicles sent to NHTSA.) It may just be that they're behind schedule, but then there's the H2GO stuff. There's a lot of name-dropping with no real association, and a lot of numbers being thrown about with no real backing.

So put me in the skeptics corner. Doesn't hurt that I can practically go down the road and get a 50-state legal, completely road legal electric three-wheeler for I think it was $30,000 out the door with tax title and license. And they're actually built here, and been in production for several years now. Maybe Ronn's got a good idea, maybe they've got a good prototype system, but without a prototype vehicle it's very hard to believe they have any hope of a 2009 production run - or certification.
 
I saw the renders too, and I was just checking out this stuff for myself when I came across a cited source that's a NASA Technical Note research article: http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19770016170_1977016170.pdf

Which I originally picked up on from this wiki page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_fuel_injection

I was highly skeptical about all of the H2GO stuff too since it seemed like a bunch of marketing-scam globbety-gloop. Since reading a few bits from the research article though, I'm inclined to do some testing myself.
 
I have a lot of problems with fuel cells. Yes they can generate a lot of power for a relatively small storage amount. This is not a new technology either. There are a few problems... Storing a volatile fuel like hydrogen under pressure. An accident that causes a fuel leak on a normal car might make a fire, but a hydrogen leek will go BOOM. The second issue is the completely new infrastructure needed for refueling these things. Hybrid cars can use regular fuel and electric cars plug into standard household outlets. The other thing for the tree-huggers... There is not enough hydrogen naturally to power these things. The easiest way to make hydrogen is by using ... OIL.

What will work... Well Lithium Ion batteries in electric cars are nice, but there is not enough lithium in the world for even the cars in the US. Lithium is also very toxic and can be dangerous.

So what do we do? Well hybrids help, so does adjusting programs in computers for full efficiency instead of power. People put tuner chips in cars for increased horsepower, but really a modern engine can run pretty efficient with reduction of horsepower. So does changing driving habits. I had an 88 Mercury Sable with 150,000 miles on it. It had a trip computer with fuel efficiency monitoring. By accelerating a little slower and costing to stops a bit more and trying to time the lights and traffic better I managed a nice 26MPG from a 3.8L engine. Put on a new air filter, add some fuel injection cleaner, and change your spark plugs. Leave for work a few minutes early and get your foot off the gas pedal.

The government needs to dump research into batteries. One technology that looked nice was using carbon nanotubes for a super efficient capacitor. The thing about capacitors is that that they do not have a memory, they do not get hot, they charge much faster, and they last a VERY long time. The problem is they are 10x bigger than the equivalent batteries. This new technology changes this. They are very safe and completely recyclable. The other technology that sounds nice was sodium-ion battery using sodium nano-tubes. These last longer than LI batteries and hold about 3 times more power. The matterials are in larger supply, are cheaper, and easier on the environment. Add in some solar panels to lengthen battery life and charge while at work and you have some nice electric cars.
 
Oops. Well I thought it was a fuel cell car. Hydrogen is still not a good option as a fuel for in internal combustion engine. You can do pretty much the same thing with propane or natural gas, which is more available than hydrogen.

It is a nice looking car though.
 
^ What? Hydrogen is made from water.. how is anything else more available than that?
 
the-one1 said:
Did anyone even notice this:
It's V-tec, not V-tech. V-tech is a phone! Might as well called it VTACK.
There is your sign that this is fake or a scam! They can't even spell the engine technology in the engine they are using.
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yeah, a typo or maybe an autocorrect in spellcheck may have made this car into a total hoax.
 
inotocracy said:
^ What? Hydrogen is made from water.. how is anything else more available than that?
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That's what the rest of us we're discussing all along. I don't know how you other guys are talking about the dangers of it. This system uses electrolysis to create H2 and O2 on the spot, no pressurized storage involved. It uses Hydrogen as an additive to the gasoline combustion cycle to lean out the mixture more than would normally be possible, drop operating temperatures, and produce much lower emissions, increasing fuel economy in the process.
 
Can anyone explain to me how taking chemical energy (gasoline), combusting it to change it into heat and mechanical energy, then using the mechanical energy usually sent directly into the drive shaft to actually move the car and instead transform it into electricity, then using that electricity to regenerate chemical energy (hydrogen and oxygen), then combusting that to regenerate mechanical energy can possibly result in an increase in efficiency? I can see how maybe injecting hydrogen can smooth out the combustion process, but you'd need a pretty large jump in order to offset the huge reduction caused by all those energy transformations. You'd probably be better off catalytically cracking the gasoline directly to hydrogen, which is how hydrogen is produced anyway. Electrolysis of water is woefully inefficient.
 
" This alternative fuel approach allows us to increase fuel mileage between 20-40 % and reduce CO2 emissions to nearly zero. "

I'm sorry, but if your car is powered by gasoline, you cannot reduce your CO2 emissions to nearly zero without some sort of capture system. Since your hydrogen is being produced from gasoline, you will produce CO2 and probably more of it than if it just ran on gas.

I could imagine that this system could increase horsepower, but I'm extremely skeptical about the increase in efficiency.
 
The most efficient method for producing hydrogen has to do with the heating of methanol, and that was the method used to test out this system in the NASA research paper.

Electrolysis is just an "easier" method, much easier to execute than creating a stove on the exhaust headers and heating methanol. I don't know about efficiencies but apparently it's working for people.
 
Damn not being able to edit posts. I also wanted to mention that heating methanol to produce hydrogen is a method of scavenging the energy created by exhaust heat, instead of just dissipating it.
 
Todd_a said:
So does changing driving habits. I had an 88 Mercury Sable with 150,000 miles on it. It had a trip computer with fuel efficiency monitoring. By accelerating a little slower and costing to stops a bit more and trying to time the lights and traffic better I managed a nice 26MPG from a 3.8L engine. Put on a new air filter, add some fuel injection cleaner, and change your spark plugs. Leave for work a few minutes early and get your foot off the gas pedal.
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I agree with this 100%. You want a cheap, quick, easy way to save gas? This is it. Don't buy anything that promises a cheap and easy increase in mileage; it's a scam. If it worked, GM would have them installed in every car.
Todd_a said:
The government needs to dump research into batteries.
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I don't agree with this. Batteries aren't great now, but that's why we NEED research. You yourself listed several promising battery technologies. You could also list capacitors as "batteries" since most people think of batteries simply as energy storage devices.
 
inotocracy said:
^ What? Hydrogen is made from water.. how is anything else more available than that?
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no, it's not that simple. First of all, yes, hydrogen can be obtained by hydrolysis of water but that requires massive amounts of electricity. Where does that electricity come from? Probably from some sort of fossil fuel (coal or oil).

Second, most of the hydrogen used in industry is not derived from water because it takes way too much energy. Current commercial hydrogen is obtained by decomposing natural gas--which is yet another fossil fuel.

Either way, you're not getting hydrogen "for free," it takes a lot of work and still depends on fossil fuels.
 
Todd_a said:
trying to time the lights and traffic better I managed a nice 26MPG from a 3.8L engine.
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One of the things that a lot of drivers simply don't believe is that traffic lights in many urban areas are controlled by computer and sequenced. The result is that if you drive at or very slightly below (~1-2 kph) the speed limit, you'll get mostly green lights. Of course, you have to be on the road long enough for your car to get synced with the lights, so don't expect magic if you're on a street for only two blocks or if you live in a town with only one traffic light.

Traffic lights are designed to control traffic speed and this is the consequence. The lights are not random - they only appear to be random to those who constantly try to drive above the speed limit.

Driving steady at the speed limit and avoiding the stop and go at the lights will save a lot of gas. It works - I've been doing it for decades.

I've never checked, but matching light sequences is probably a hypermiling technique - I don't know if those web sites mention the design of the sequencing.
 
Since Hydrogen carries 1/22nd the chemical energy by volume of gasoline, that's gonna take a shitload of hydrogen to even get you down the dragstrip, nevermind across state.
 
BBA said:
I have been thinking about one of the electrolysis add-on for my own use, my car get's such shit gas mileage it would have to help, and according to everyone using them, they seem to get around 40% better mileage (That would bring me close to 20 MPG or so).

The good thing...I don't need the turbo option either, already have over 400 HP. (LS2 TBSS)
Click to expand...

It's snakeoil. You wont experience a difference. This website is a lie and that car would make 450 horsepower with or without a useless amount of H2+O2 being slowly pumped into the engine.
 
Also, the website lies and says a fully hydrogen powered combustion car is more efficient than a gasoline powered engine.
 
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx said:
Since Hydrogen carries 1/22nd the chemical energy by volume of gasoline, that's gonna take a shitload of hydrogen to even get you down the dragstrip, nevermind across state.
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Nevermind the fact that a gasoline burning engine is about 35% efficient at best.

Not giving Hydrogen more credibility, but keep in mind that you're not deriving ever last bit of energy out of that gasoline, 65% is already wasted on getting the engine to turn.
 
sigh. hydrogen fuel cells are the answer. and if we cant ever find a way to make them cheap enough then we will just use plug-in battery cars. because surely, someday, someone will figure out a good battery. lead acid is still in every car made to toady, and that technology was developed in the 1800's. there is just one GIGANTIC hole in battery technology that must be filled. it has to be.
 
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