HWUB/Techspot adds more games, 5700XT falls further behind 2070 Super.

Discussion in 'Video Cards' started by Snowdog, Aug 27, 2019.

  1. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  2. SeymourGore

    SeymourGore 2[H]4U

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    That should help narrow that price advantage a bit.
     
  3. defaultluser

    defaultluser [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yeah, Tech Power Up (which also tests around twenty video games) has noted from day 1 that the 2060 Super is 5% behind the 5700 XT, while the 2070 Super is 10% faster at 1440p:

    relative-performance_2560-1440.png

    Given the stable state of the drivers, and the capable RTX support, it's a hard sell for the 5700 XT at $400, and really need another price cut. But AMD would lose money at $350 for this uncut silicon plus 8GB GDDR6.

    Even the 5700 s a tough sell, now that most 2060 cards have had a $20 price cut. Only the Asrock 5700 card is priced anywhere near sanity.

    The only people who find value in Navi are the folks who only play a single video game, and see no future in RTX.
     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2019
  4. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    wow, 6% faster.

    The 2070super is 25% more expensive (or the 5700xt is 20% cheaper depending on how you look at it)

    Seems like the 5700xt is still a better value.
     
  5. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    And the 2070 Super is a better value than 2080 super, which is a better value than the 2080 Ti. Notice a trend?

    That gap is likely very similar between the 2060 Super and the 5700XT So you can pay the same price and come out a little behind with some bonus features, TWO included games, one of which just released to VERY good reviews (Control).
     
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  6. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    You like nvidia, we know.

    AMD has the xbox gamepass currently, so meh.

    If you like nvidia, the 2060 super is a good choice. If you like AMD, the 5700xt is a good choice.
     
  7. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    Gamer X

    didn't you say 5700xt was getting faster with each driver release? :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
     
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  8. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    Yep, thank you...!
    Now compare them to an aftermarket $499 Radeon 5700XT and a stock $499 RTX2070S..... The sheer fact that he chose an aftermarket 2070s completely dismisses the fact that these cards are $100 apart. And to make it "fair'er"... you should compare with the price being the close as possible. As would any sane shopper.


    Also, People paying $349 - $399 aren't gaming at 4k and nobody is talking about 4k cards. Reviewers use that to show the scaling capable on the said GPU, against others. Not as a point of gaming for these. Even the RTX2080 doesn't play games at 4k consistently. Just make is easy on yourself and stick to 1440p in your arguments, because that is where the mainstream is headed.

    $540 RTX2070 SUPER against a $440 5700xt and it wins by 6% while paying $100 more..



    It's like a 4th grade math problem.
     
  9. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    from what I"ve seen, even the rtx 2070super is capable of 4k gaming in several recent games. The 5700XT is also capable of some 4k gaming but somewhat less than the 2700super.
     
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  10. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    Navi doesn't do well with increasing resolution, further evidence it is handicapped by bandwidth
     
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  11. purple_monster

    purple_monster Gawd

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    why wouldnt you buy a 2070 super if they cost the same then????
     
  12. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    Just so you know, there are integrated graphics that are CAPABLE of 4k... heck, my Raspberry Pi is capable of 4k graphics.



    So Stoly, did you buy your card yet? Did you get a new 4k monitor too..?
     
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  13. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    Do you have your 5700xt yet?
     
  14. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    Stoly is that you?
    My $800 2080 barely pushed 3440x1440p @ 80 frames, so I need more power to push 4k. Funny how Nvidia wants me to spend $1400 on a GPU to play widescreen games (at consistent frames over 100Hz). The 2080 is entry level into 4k Gaming and is not worthwhile (buyer remorse), because the playing experience is nothing like the performance I had before upgrading.

    AMD's soon to be released 5800 Series will have "more power" than my $800 RTX. So it is a no brainer for anyone who is entering the 4k gaming arena..... and why EVERYONE is excited and holding out for the new gen cards.




    Also worth noting, that AMD consumer's don't have to pay the Jensen tax either...
     
  15. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Found the paid so called "influencer" for AMD!
     
  16. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Just some push-back reaction to certain over the top AMD fanboys around here.

    A couple of months of gamepass is negligible. You get 3 months for $5 right now. So the monetary value is $5. Control alone is brand new and selling for $60. I never mentioned Wolf:Youngblood, because it looks kind of lame. But control seems like a really good game.


    Sure. I just think, the 2060S is an overlooked comparison to the 5700xt. For the same price, you get similar performance, a richer features set, and at least one good current pack in game, and ultimately I am a value buyer. The 2060S looks like more for the money to me.
     
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  17. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    Sorry dude, I have a job and a career. Would you like to meet at a pub and discuss it..?

    All your attacks on me are fruitless. Funny how the (same) people attacking me, have no sense of money, or work, or anything logical... just keep coming at me with nvidioit trash. So I keep mocking them with more facts and points of logic, that they can't overcome, so they try and mock me.

    What is your point...? You don't like the message, because you are trained to cheerlead for Nvidia, or do you want to have a logical discussion without any bias, or pretense..?



    I am all game... and as you can see, my game is better than yours because I don't have to hide.
     
  18. GoldenTiger

    GoldenTiger [H]ard as it Gets

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    Wrong.
     
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  19. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    That is your answer...?

    epic fail...
     
  20. Bankie

    Bankie [H]ard|Gawd

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    No one's going to mention how the 5700XT's 1% low numbers are sometimes WAY slower than the 2070S in some games? That seems like an important data point also.
     
  21. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    Still haven't sold the GTX1070Ti, so no. Already have a 50" 4K tv for gaming. Not playing any recent games mind you. I still have a huge catalog of games I haven't even played yet.
     
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  22. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Limp Gawd

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  23. thebufenator

    thebufenator [H]ard|Gawd

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    Interesting conclusion:

     
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  24. Face2Face

    Face2Face Limp Gawd

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    I know my opinion won’t be a popular one, but if I had $400 to spend on a GPU today, I’d probably reach for the RTX 2060 Super. Yes, it’s not quite as fast as the RX 5700 XT, but nothing a simple OC wouldn’t fix. The main reason why I would choose the 2060 S is because of the larger feature set. DXR compatibility and the dedicated hardware specifically for it is the main one. Also, Turing is compatible with VRS, has parity with Anti-lag and the Sharpness filter. DLSS is a neat idea, but does fail on many fronts, that’s why it’s nice to now have the ability to drop the res scale and use the sharpness filter as an alternative. Having played Metro Exodus with RTX enabled made me a believer and the games releases are not slowing down.


    In no way am I trying to downplay RDNA, as I’m personally very happy with how Navi has turned out. While GCN had a great run, it didn’t scale very well the more CUs you add. It lives on with its ISA, but now Navi is very close with NVIDIA in gaming performance with equal the amount of SPs. How long has it been since that was the case? I also don’t think Navi will suffer from the same scaling issue GCN did, meaning an 80 CU beast should dominate performance wise, but not in features. Navi with DXR support will be an awesome thing to see.
     
  25. sabrewolf732

    sabrewolf732 2[H]4U

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    But that doesn't line up with Snowdog 's conclusion
     
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  26. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    Value is subjective. If you had said: "The 2070 Super is cheaper than the 2080 Super, which is cheaper than the 2080 Ti. Notice a trend?" your statement would have been accurate, but when you bring value into the mix, the argument is entirely subjective. I was on a pair of GTX 1080 Ti's at 4K. Therefore, no card outside of the RTX 2080 Ti held any value to me as they'd have been a side grade or a downgrade in performance. When you want maximum details and higher frame rates at 3440x1440 or higher, the RTX 2080 Ti is the best choice. With the 2080 Super being a more entry level propostion for 4k, you generally go with if you can't afford the Ti, or are unwilling to spend the money for your own reasons. That makes the RTX 2080 Super, a value in the eyes of some.

    Frankly, I couldn't give two squirts of piss about included games. I never let software of that nature dictate my buying practices or choices. It's a cherry on top, but ultimately I wouldn't add too much weight to that in my buying decision.

    Capable doesn't mean ideal. Everything short of an RTX 2080 Ti will be a compromise with regard to performance at 4K. Sure, you can use any of these cards for 4K gaming, but you'll sacrifice details and settings in any modern titles to achieve playable frame rates.

    No, it does not. It really isn't a viable option for 4K gaming.

    Agreed. More power is definitely needed at 4K.

    Don't dramatize. RTX 2080 Ti's can be had for around $1,100. Most of the AIB cards with factory overclocks, massive VRMs, and custom cooling aren't even that expensive.

    I couldn't agree more. I used a pair of GTX 1080 Ti's for 4K gaming and when SLI didn't work, I wasn't too far off the RTX 2080 performance wise. It was far from adequate in some titles. Where SLI worked, they provided a solid experience.

    Citation needed. This is entirely speculative.


    The "Jensen" tax wouldn't be so high if AMD were actually more competitive. NVIDIA charges what it does because it can get away with it.

    Calm down there Mr. Internet Toughguy.

    How do you know what your "attackers" finances or professional lives are like? You aren't mocking people with facts and logic. While you do make some valid points, you also make statements which are either entirely speculative or are untrue as noted above. It's not hard to overcome that.

    Unsubstantiated accusations: Check.
    Accuses others of bias while demonstrating bias of their own: Check

    Got it.

    Says the guy hiding behind a username and the anonymity of the internet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  27. cybereality

    cybereality [H]ardness Supreme

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    Why are they comparing the 5700 XT to the 2070 Super, when they are not in the same price class?

    The 2060 Super would be a more fair comparison, since they are both around $400, though looking at NewEgg it's hard to find one for that price.
     
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  28. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That is what their Patreon Supporters voted for.
     
  29. Stoly

    Stoly [H]ardness Supreme

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    And that's why I said capable. Actually I'm kind of surprised of how many games you can play at 4k with high/ultra quality at close to or even over 60fps on the 2070Super (and some of them on the 5700XT). On a freesync/gsync monitor they should run butterly smooth.
     
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  30. Cr4ckm0nk3y

    Cr4ckm0nk3y Gawd

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    I have read a bunch of your posts and I believe people are "attacking" you because you don't present facts. Almost every post of yours is full of conjecture.

    It seems to be less of an attack against you and more calling you out for not posting anything substantive. Just rumor mill speculation.

    So don't get bent out of shape when a large group calls you out or doesn't take you seriously. Calling them "nvidiots" or saying they are cheerleading also adds nothing to the conversation and only fuels their contempt for you. They could also just keep replying to your posts that you sound like an AMD shill. This also adds nothing to the conversation.

    Maybe tone down the unsupported rhetoric and people might actually listen to you.
     
  31. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    I don't demonstrate bias.

    That is how far out of whack some people are. Because I don't care what brand, but if I am joining into this conversation of -VERSES- (in choosing either / or) then I will apply logic and reasoning, in combating those who are applying marketing speak.

    That simple^



    I can afford and do own both Nvidia and AMD GPUs. In the last few years I have spent over $3k in GPUs. I don't give a rat's ass about who makes my GPU, but I am not led-around by piss poor marketing and gimicks. So (once again) when on these forums, it is not hard to ruffle the bias cheerleader's feather... with some easy logic. That they can never overcome, other than to have them qualify with some obscure need, etc.

    Has anyone ever (here) proven why RDNA is so bad..? When elsehwere in the rest of the world, people are stumped at what RDNA can & will do..? RDNA is a specific built GPU for Games. Nvidia does not have that. Nvidia might be Premium branding in the Ai world & Enterprise…. , but for us gamer's it is clear that RDNA own mainstream gaming at 1440p @ 252mm^2. (In other words, it takes a $500 Nvidia GPU to beat little navi.

    Don't be fooled by Navi's price... AMD is making a KILLING @ 251mm^2 a chip. (ie: Nvidia is making it easy for AMD to overcharge for their Navi10.)



    And yes Dan, everyone here knows that the AMD Radeon 5800 Series GPU are coming. Don't pretend to not of heard of "big navi", or the even bigger RDNA2 chip called "nvidia killer" ..? I can link you to many articles about these "rumors"..
    But they are not rumors:
    • -Because Dr Lisa Su (CEO of AMD) also told us that Navi10 was delayed and had ben sent back for a respin 4 months before it's release. And in doing so, "other teams gained an advantage" before their own tape-outs. And that in the end, it (the delay & respin) was a benefit to AMD.
    • -Dr Su has also said many times that they have several teams working on separate GPUs in parrellel along side other GPU teams. And there is much crosstalk and sharing so each team benefits from what the other's learn.

    These teams were rumored to be 7 months apart, in their tick-tock cadence. If navi10 just dropped a month ago... instead of when it should've been released (see Radeon Vii). Which also means the OTHER GPU Teams are not far behind.... as we are already getting reference to Navi21 and Navi24..?

    Essentially Vega20 size, without HBM and 16GB/s GDDR6 using Navi10's new RDNA architecture, instead of Vega's. The concept and speculation kinda goes out the window when it makes 100% logical in doing so. Seems odd, that I am pointing out the obvious here... and it's like some don't get outside of these forum.


    All you have to do is watch AMD's key notes addresses over the last 2 years and understand that AMD is not lying. Does anyone have reason to doubt Dr Su..? She seems understated and always holds back. I don't find her a braggart. So given her subtle statements as of late.... you think I am off my rocker for suggesting she isn't lying..?

    And that if true.. not hard to speculate on. Is it..?

    Problem is people don't want to speculate on the probability, because they will be confronted with when..? When is the 5800 Series coming out..? <---- isn't that... what many here do not want to discuss?
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  32. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    I understand that. And that is EXACTLY what they want you to see. They want me to stoop to their level and defending myself and sling mud back at them. So they can attack my character more. Notice how they keep on me, but have no facts. They have disdain for me, because I mock them with facts all the time. Those facts are riddled in other threads, in which they were unable to argue/rebuttal and just skip over them, unable to quote or debate those facts.

    They instead (like you), are attacking the delivery of my message. Yes I serve it up with extra spice, but that is only to mock their pseudo ignorance... and over-biased hatred for AMD. They are actually angered that Navi10 is so good. Imagine that... how warped a mind that is. Upset that a GPU is good, but unable to explain why they don't like it...

    That is what I experience when I arrived here a few months ago. Blind people with all the knowledge.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2019
  33. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    We know Big Navi is coming. We do not know what its specs are, performance will be, nor what it will be called. 5800 is likely, but unconfirmed. Specs making sense to us without confirmation is still speculative.

    Perhaps you need a little history lesson. AMD says a lot of things that end up not being true, or at the very least grossly exaggerated. Speculation is fun, but don't get emotionally invested in it. Sometimes the rumors turn out to be true and sometimes not. The problem is you are acting like unconfirmed rumors are facts and at this point they are not.
     
  34. Gamer X

    Gamer X Limp Gawd

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    Dan, do you understand RDNA's architecture... or how the CU's work, etc.. People make a living at speculating such things, but "big-navi".... and what it is ? Is not hard to speculate on. Matter of fact there is not much to speculate about. History has also taught us Dr Lisa Su has only been CEO for a short while and her tenure proves my point, while dismissing yours.

    Their specs are utterly obvious... given the perfect templet we have for specs. Both Nav10 & Vega20 exist at 7nm. We already know how much more powerful Navi10 is at gaming, now plug RDNA into the transistor count that is Mi50... and what do you get under RDNA..?

    Can you guess at the % of Gaming performance, given the die space..? Given solid math..?




    If you can't^.... then I suggest you take your 50K post and look in the mirror.
     
  35. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Nor when it is coming. Basically we know nothing other than a higher performance Navi will be here someday. We don't even know if it will arrive before NVidia 7nm parts start arriving.
     
  36. MangoSeed

    MangoSeed Limp Gawd

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  37. stashix

    stashix Limp Gawd

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    The arrogance is astounding.
     
  38. Dan_D

    Dan_D [H]ard as it Gets

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    You make a ton of assumptions about how well Navi will scale. The fact of the matter is, these things do not always scale in a perfectly linear fashion. Semi-conductors reach a point where they require exponentially more power to reach higher clocks. They reach a point where their efficiency tanks. If you look at the actual data, the 5700's clocks and power consumption are pretty low all around. The performance is good for what it is. When you move up to the 5700XT, the clocks go up a mere 300MHz or so and the power consumption shoots through the roof.

    5700xt_clockspeed.png
    5700_clockspeed.png

    power-1.png

    This is over an 80watt increase in power consumption for a mere 300MHz of clock speed. Keep in mind these have to remain within a certain power envelope to remain PCI-Express compliant. You have to understand that Navi is less efficient at 7nm than NVIDIA is at 12nm. If you think AMD can just simply increase the number of CU's and not be in trouble, I've got some ocean front property in Arizona for sale.

    You can't just add transistor count, CU's, CUDA cores, physical cores, or whatever and expect a perfectly linear increase in performance due to power consumption, heat and clock speed constraints. At some point things become less efficient and at that point its a balancing act. You can see that in the graphs above. RDNA is interesting but so far the two cards we have are ultimately well behind several NVIDIA offerings. AMD can call a card "NVIDIA killer" all they want behind closed doors but that doesn't make it true. Even if Big Navi comes out soon enough to dethrone the current RTX 2080 Ti, NVIDIA isn't sitting still either, it never has. For AMD to actually have an "NVIDIA killer", they have to compete with NVIDIA's next architecture. It's next major product iteration and not just what we have today.

    Lastly, I'm going to caution you about the personal attacks. If you persist with them, you won't make it to 400 posts, much less the 50k+ I have.
     
  39. Cr4ckm0nk3y

    Cr4ckm0nk3y Gawd

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    :wideyed: - Holy shit dude!

    Who is they? Some large pro Nvidia group trying to keep AMD down? Some large conspiracy to hide amazing AMD GPU's from us normies? WTF ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT! Comments like that are why no one will take you seriously.

    OK, I'll bite.

    Post a reply with one known and verifiable fact that the RX 5800 will be the "Nvidia killer" an unknown internal AMD source called it and it will unseat the 2080 or 2080ti. Today. Post one verified benchmark to prove your "facts." Prove your RX 5800 facts aren't conjecture.


    How did I attack you? I only called you out for never actually posting facts and only using conjecture. That is hardly an attack.

    You are saying their bias, have you ever read one of your posts?

    BTW, Dan is 100% correct. NV and AIB partners (both are responsible) are charging $999-1400 for the 2080ti because for generations AMD has not provided any competition. If you want halo performance you will pay for it. Supply and demand.

    Who is angered that Navi actually performs well? I have seen posts commenting on the 5700XT's potential heat issues and that performance is still slower than NV but I haven't seen hate at AMD. Can you post someone who is actually pissed AMD launched a good card?


    What I have seen is people cautioning you on your over joyous celebrating of a GPU that doesn't even exist. Posting comments by Su to validate some imaginary, yes its imaginary at this point, performance is ridiculous. Half if not more of a CEO's job is marketing by primarily using hype.

    Dan's cautioning you to not believe AMD's hype is very well founded. Since Hawaii AMD has claimed to have NV killers and it never happens. Wait for the benchmarks...it is that easy. It has been a fundamental belief on [H]ard since I first came here in the early 2000's. Don't believe shit until you see the review.
     
  40. Face2Face

    Face2Face Limp Gawd

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    Navi isn't just built for games. From the RDNA white paper - We will see variants that are purpose built to accelerate machine learning using mixed precision, similar to NVIDIA's tensor cores.

    upload_2019-8-29_16-26-14.png

    upload_2019-8-29_16-29-4.png
     
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