Huawei Ousted from Associations That Create Global Standards

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by cageymaru, May 24, 2019.

  1. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    I totally second that. This is a no-brainer, only for people who refuse to admit what Mao has done and the Soviet have done, counting more than 100 million innocents killed and and so many tortured ans having their good life put in jeopardy. All this is protected and glorified by the CPC at the head of China. Don't even understand why we do business with this country without forcing our terms to turn it into a true democracy. On the contrary, they are going the opposite way. So should we ! I think Russia is treated much much worse than China when it shouldn't. While it's not good, they should be treated much better. After all the Russian regime has turned to be much better and Putin however wicked he is, can lose the elections.
    First responsible for that situation : GW Bush. One should have expected better than unconditional business and status of Most Favored Nation with super-confidence and closing eyes on Tibet. Then came Obama. It was all on fire with a one way business all favoring China while China was pressuring its neighbors with its army and going more and more totalitarian like how it was during Mao time. Obama just did nothing mostly admitting any Chinese decision as a fact, put some quiet words against chinese policy in Tibet only out of any talk with China that would be "unpleasant" to the Chinese rulers. Trump may seem over-reacting but he's only adding to the job Obama had left undone.

    Oh yes... Europe. In EU all politicians are speaking today against the US and praising China. This is just crazy. But Europe has no future and most of the Europeans are aware of that, don't even care. Better sell what has still value today and flee elsewhere when everything will go wrong. That's the idea.
    Xi Jiping, chinese president, chosen by the CPC for life, convoked a reunion with the Europeans leaders in Europe for the 2nd century of the birth of Karl Marx and offered a statue. All EU leaders, including conservatives (!), came and praised the statue and praised Marx and Jiping as their spiritual leader. Who do you want EU people to vote for ? They are trying some noxious extremist movement as they have no other way to know for sure others are not some anti-european puppets.

    Good to know the US is still the US and wants to stay that way. Maybe I'll join my family already there and with US citizenship, one day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
  2. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Opening trade with China distracted them from their ideological goals and essentially diverted the world away from the path toward another global conflict. One with thermonuclear warfare.

    That may still come to pass; the geostrategic balance is in constant flux. China's game, which is being stunted by these economic and IP moves, wouldn't have been fruitful for another decade or two- now that may be pushed back further.

    The only real long-term solution would be for China to join the rest of the world- or- for the CPC to cease to exist.
     
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  3. gigatexal

    gigatexal [H]ardness Supreme

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    I don't buy into the general Chinese xenophobia but the Chinese firms steal IP like I steal breaths. They can all go jump off a bridge. AND don't get me started on how close these "firms" are to the Chinese state -- get those commie's out of our infrastructure and the infrastructure of our allies.

    That being said I have nothing against the Chinese people or the culture but the Chinese government and these quasi-private companies that work for them I have no sympathy for at all.
     
  4. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'll say that I have nothing against the Chinese people, and that I'd love to visit them someday. My words have been for the CPC.
     
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  5. Joust

    Joust 2[H]4U

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    I think that's probably true of all the criticism that's being directed that way. I would hope so.
     
  6. ZodaEX

    ZodaEX 2[H]4U

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    What is the CPC?
     
  7. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    GIYF
     
  8. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    I'd even say that the evolution of removing the CPC and that false idea of a monolithic China, like all the people together with one common goal would be a great evolution for the people living in China.
    Actually the big argument of the CPC is that it permitted that every chinese would eat at the level of his needs.
    This kind of behaviour is so obsolete... the chinese would be eating well for many decades without the CPC ruling China. Only scare and global surveillance keeps CPC at the top of the power.
    The western leaders who comply with the CPC leaders are like those of the kind who bowed to the nazis. Exactly the same behaviour. They must know they will be judged in time and their children will hide their family name to avoid feeling disgraced.
     
  9. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    Communist Party of China.
     
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  10. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    While China's treatment of their Muslim minorities has been horrific, we're not seeing the extermination campaigns that defined Nazi rule, at the very least.

    Now, we have seen them and they were part of consolidating the CPC's power, and they made the Nazis look like rank amateurs by sheer comparison of scale, but we also can't really compare the China then to the China now, despite continuous party rule.
     
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  11. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    Fact is China was forced to let things go more freely part of deals we made in, the 90s and years 2000, but they are coming back from this and especially new rulers are now expressing very strong views against democracy, freedom of speech and free behavior, and communism everywhere all over the world as in the good old days. The reversed thing began with Obama because he was weak against them. So we know why this happens now.
     
  12. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't doubt that Obama's projection of weakness emboldened adversaries, but I think the CPC cracking down on individualism was bound to happen when the people started to gain power. The burgeoning Chinese middle class is a direct threat to their rule.

    Which was basically the plan all along- hundreds of thousands of Chinese have not starved to death due to the US opening up trade and transferring technology that has helped China become more relevant, such that the Chinese people may move up Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and start thinking for themselves. Now the leadership wants to tamp down on that. We'll see how it plays out.
     
  13. Jandor

    Jandor Limp Gawd

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    Ok. Now let's be clear about this. It seems what you say is so and the history that's been made up by the CPC would be so. I insist on the fact that the Soviet Union fabricated such stories around the people being without morals in Eastern Europe while destroying those countries bit by bit.

    The behavior of stealing, lying vanishes in no time under the rule of law because a large majority of people will very soon see the advantage in this and will help. For instance under communist rule, if you are close to CPC you have rights over other people because of the other people scared of you who will comply with you stealing and lying, ans as you know property is not respected by communism so one odd behavior and you will be removed from your position in the CPC. So the system maintains itself. This is very complicated but communism in power will favor stealing and lying as part of the system, even if some free trade is allowed provided CPC members are in charge. This is even worse of any cartoonish feudal system. It's completely wicked.
     
  14. Ranulfo

    Ranulfo [H]ard|Gawd

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    Go look up the Great Leap Forward.
     
  15. IdiotInCharge

    IdiotInCharge [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Long march, cultural revolution?

    These did happen in China's past. They could happen again, but what I'm saying is that they're not happening right now and that China has changed even if the party hasn't.
     
  16. Ranulfo

    Ranulfo [H]ard|Gawd

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    Perhaps but do note, China was stealing/copying IP back in the 20s and 30s. Namely guns.
     
  17. Laowai

    Laowai Gawd

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    How much has it really changed? Perhaps not as much as some would like to think. Most changes are a thin veil covering the same ugliness. You can cover a pile of shit with gold leaf but it's still a pile of shit. Just marginally less repulsive at first glance.

    The movement of citizens is still tightly controlled. As tightly as during Mao's time...no. Though they are making a strong push to make it as close to that nightmare as possible with their new social credit system + the surveillance state.
    Births are still controlled and require approval by the government.
    SoE's still control all major industries. The gov't sets prices for numerous commodities.
    The rule of law does not yet exist. Rights are still the thing of dreams.
    All land and natural resources still belongs to the State.
    No media is made available to the public without CPC approval.
    Public schools are little more than propaganda dissemination points and their education system creates unthinking automatons who will be loyal to the CPC by design.
    The current president has a degree of power not held by a single individual since Mao. Zero checks and balances remain against said power.
    Wrongthink still gets met with various forms of gov't initiated punishment.
    Wrongspeak still gets met with various forms of gov't initiated punishment.
    Religion is still heavily restricted and regulated.
    Privacy does not exist on any level. Every single bit of information about you is available to the gov't and its agencies with zero limitations on its use or protections or recourse.
    In most cases, you won't even have the opportunity to choose what you study at University.
    ....etc...

    While I certainly cannot say China has not changed, I am not nearly as optimistic as some. My blinders have been slowly removed in the near decade I've spent living on the Mainland.
     
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  18. Flexion

    Flexion [H]ard|Gawd

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    Wonder if Lenovo is next...
     
  19. Jinto

    Jinto [H]ard|Gawd

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    The halt in production is to be expected. Many of their lower end phones still use Qualcomm. Their plan B likely involved using older Kirin chips on lower end phones instead and it would take some time to get those online.

    Huawei will likely pare down its peripheral and low profit business to ensure that all R&D is focused on getting 5G out the door smoothly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
  20. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    They may never publish them, depends on the source. If the DoD found exploits/vulnerabilities it may be classified. In fact, it's possible that an inside source in HuaWei provided information about intentions to engineer future exploits not yet in the software/hardware and that this is all a reaction to that information.

    Not everything is "observable" yet risks can be real.
     
  21. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You really think this is all just about Trump?

    You don't think the military identified real issues with Chinese based products and that these issues are not going to just go away with a new president?
     
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  22. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Perhaps ...... but I have to wonder why you would fear your own government more than an rival nation?

    Don't get me wrong, I understand the risk of a totalitarian government, but I also recognize the risk of potential enemy nations gaining a position of control over our communications networks. Specially knowing that this country has stolen classified technology from the US in the past.

    So I get that you think of the NSA working in methods of access to CISCO and Microsoft sounds terrible. But when CISCO and Microsoft are used throughout the world ....... you have to admit, the NSA, as a DoD Agency, has a hell of a lot of other interests acrossed the globe and it just may not be about you.
     
  23. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    None of it is new. China is China. China traded Emperors for Chairmen but the CPC is just a new form of Dynasty no different than the Han or Ming. But mentioning the Han let's me remember that the descendants of the Han are the South Koreans and that is an entirely different picture all together. And while today, China fears a middle class knowing that money is power, loath to relinquish power, there remains hope. If South Korea can do it, can China?
     
  24. Joust

    Joust 2[H]4U

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    South Korea and China aren't even remotely comparable. South Korea might break into two factions. China breaks into probably at least 23.
     
  25. Jim Kim

    Jim Kim 2[H]4U

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  26. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I'm not talking about anyone "breaking into factions". I'm talking about whether or not China can follow South Korea into a new age of prosperity, middle class development, and economic freedom.
     
  27. Joust

    Joust 2[H]4U

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    In Korea there are two main parties, and several minority parties. DPK, LPK, then the rest. So, two main voices to hash out whether to move in a direction. In China, there is one party. And 28 geopolitical subdivisions. 28, more or less, views - after breaking the one party.
     
  28. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Edward Snowden?

    He's a laugh and a self-made idiot.

    He didn't finish high school, got a GED later, worked as a security guard on a collage campus and claims it was security for the NSA. Joined the Army to be a Green Beret and somehow breaks both legs for a medical discharge in Basic Training which he never completed. The only guys that break both legs in Basic are the ones who tried to jump out of a second story window. Basic training just isn't that dangerous anymore. He claims he worked for the NSA in Japan but he worked for Dell at a US Army Field Station and all Dell ever does at such locations is hardware support, fans and motherboards for servers, and desktop hardware. Lied about his masters to BAH to get the juicy job in Hawaii and when they were going to catch him he decides to try and snatch victory from defeat and run with some hard drives to fucking China where the Russian's talk him into giving everything to them in exchange for asylum.

    Still, none of this changes what he took. And many of us have seen a lot of it, the stuff the media thought was juicy and damning. The only problem is, these people don't know what they are looking at and consistently misunderstand and come to incorrect conclusions due to their ignorance. FFS they posted a training slide depicting how the Agency leverages a compromised ISP, and claimed the NSA hacks Google because Google was the name used to depict the ISP. That training slide would have been so much more effective as a training tool if they had given it a more authentic name like Mauk-Al-Awarizon :facepalm:

    The media gave him a pass on all this stuff and tried to make him into a saint or a martyr because if they called him on it and told us what he really is it would have weakened their message about the evil NSA.
    But no matter. Everyone is experts today, and know all about these things that they actually don't know the first thing about.

    Now I'm not saying the US is a Saint as you put it. But I challenge all media when it comes to their conclusions or claims of intent. This article you linked too claims US Companies prevented any action but if you really read it carefully, you'll see the problem here. The Cutler woman says "Looking back on it, in retrospect, I think we probably should have been more active and more responsive." Does this sound like it was all on the US Companies or is there room here for a little Government complacency ?

    And when this Attorney General, Hickton, "went to the companies, eager for them to become plaintiffs, he ran into a problem. None of the companies wanted any part of it. Hickton says they had too much money on the line in China." as plaintiffs, he's talking about Law Suites as if that is the only tool that the US Government has at it's disposal. Yet today, we see the Trump Administration dipping into their tool belt to an entirely different effect.

    Look, business are what they are, and big ones have very narrow minded people at the top and yes, their bottom line is profits, it's why it's called the bottom line. But the Government should have done something more a long time ago. The fact that they didn't is just a sign of how ineffectual our government can be at times.

    So while I disagree with you on the skeletons in the American closet, (they are there, I just think they aren't the ones you are focused on), it's possible that we agree that the US Government has let this situation get far worse for far too long and what is being done today is fully justified. I can't be sure by your statement because I think we disagree about who was really responsible for this failure to protect our nation.

    So please, if I misunderstand you by all means let me know. If we disagree, all's well. Nothing says we have to agree at all.
     
  29. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I just don't understand what you are trying to say. All I am saying is that South Korea is a good example of a goal for China if they want to head that way. I don't give a rat's ass how difficult the road might get trying to get there. Never said it would be easy, or that they even want to try. There is no crystal ball in my comments.
     
  30. Jinto

    Jinto [H]ard|Gawd

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    If there is indeed such information, we would have shared it with our allies and they would have all banned Huawei. Do we have so little trust in our NATO partners? We are asking our allies to trust us when we obviously do not trust them.
     
  31. Laowai

    Laowai Gawd

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    Short Answer: No.

    What happened in S. Korea could not have happened without a degree of freedom (personal, economic, and otherwise) that the CPC will not allow its citizenry.
    If the CPC ever got their filthy boots off of the collective neck of the Chinese people...amazing things would be possible. Their power depends on that very thing not happening though. Anything positive MUST be the direct result of CPC action or 'Winnie the Pooh(Xi Jinping) Thought'.

    For it to be remotely possible, the CPC would have to go poof and China would need to be broken down at least to the provincial level. A number of cities would likely have to become independent as well. There would need to be some massive oversight because I would predict countless 'strongman thugs' popping up. All branches of the military, the police, State Security, gangsters big and small, former CPC members, and a bunch of folks I can't think of atm would all be vying to put that boot back where it was.

    I don't believe any of this is possible tbh.
     
  32. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wow, you really think you get to decide who we do and don't share information with?

    What we share depends on the source of the information and who we trust with knowledge of that source. The ones we trust most are our 5-Eyes Intelligence partners, most of the EU isn't on that list.

    You know, these relationships are not new. Things are the way they are for very good reasons and decades of experience. This is not at all the first time that the US has given our allies in NATO recommendations without the source information as proof.

    Frankly they can accept it as is, or they can take their chances. You asked, the answer is NO, we don't trust them with everything and we never have.

    This is why I said watch what our 5-Eyes partners do, the ones that we do trust with more information. Instead of doing like some people do, and write them off as shills for the US, try giving them a little credit for being sovereign nations that have the power and freedom to make up their own damned minds when presented with the information.

    The UK, Australia, Canada, and New Zealand all share a special relationship with each other and the US. Then there are the others and that's just the way it is today, and the way it's been for at least 80 years. The rest are not equal partners in our eyes like you seem to think they should be.
     
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  33. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Wait, let me get your circular thinking straight in my mind .............. You are saying that the CPC can't decide to change how they do things ........ because they won't allow themselves to change ?

    You are arguing this point, even after I said "There is no crystal ball in my comments."

    I never ever proposed the China will do this. But you keep driving in that direction as if I did.

    What I said was " ....that South Korea is a good example of a goal for China if they want to head that way."

    Please stop insisting that I am arguing for it, think it will happen, or anything else of the sort because I didn't.

    This is like an argument I had with a guy about a Youtube video where the author asked the question, "Will "Mech-Like" vehicles replace the tank?"

    A host of guys came in with all the reasons why it wouldn't ever happen. I came out and said, "If it happens, it'll be because it is a feasible course of action, the the conditions in which such decisions are made, make them a good choice." It's sort of like saying, "Pigs may fly someday. If you happen to see some flying, then you'll get to learn why it happened." And then we get to hear all the arguments from people insisting that pigs will never fly, it's impossible. Just like I had to hear over and again why Mechs would never happen.

    Well I never said Mechs would happen, or that Pigs will fly, just like I didn't say China would adopt economic systems similar to South Korea. So why are you arguing with me over it?
     
  34. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Gawd

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    Because your own government has access to you and can use local laws against you, lock you up, conspire against you, and use information against you or to manipulate you, and can instantly understand your transmitted information... while a foreign government can't.

    And the US in particular is a bad-faith actor with basically no regard for laws and the rights of whoever its government and agencies seek to harm, or view as convenient to their goals to harm.

    Why would you at all fear a foreign government that has no reach to you, and which can't even translate your information to understand it apart from lots of effort and time, and skilled translation specialists? It's your own government that has means to harm you and at against you, and which is capable to process more of your information and far more quickly.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  35. lcpiper

    lcpiper [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Oh but this is where you are soooo wrong. Foreign governments do have "reach to you". The individual is extremely vulnerable to manipulation by foreign powers. The reason you don't see it is because frankly, you probably don't have anything they want. Other people, people in positions of authority, trust, etc, they are all targets of foreign powers. They are the ones that become targets of foreign spies who seek to manipulate them for the foreign government's gain. Did you forget about those Russian spies not that long ago? Everyone focuses on the spy and forgets that the spy works through co-opted persons. The Colonel who was sexually blackmailed, the Congressman's Aid who was bribed, etc. These people are citizens that foreign powers targeted because they had something to offer. No, Joe Smoe from Pocono doesn't have much to fear from Boris and Natasha because Joe ain't got nothing that they want. But there are hundreds of thousands that do have something they want.

    Let me throw out a possible that's current. There is a chance that Jullian Assange is actually an agent for a foreign power. It's entirely possible that China, through an Agent of their own, first compromised Assange, helped put Assange into a position that would establish a solid cover for their operations (Wikileaks), and used him and Wikileaks to attack Western Governments. It's possible that they helped Assange by providing him, and therefore Manning, a means to break those encrypted military passwords and gain access to accounts he otherwise would never have had. A stooge of a stooge, all convinced that they are only doing what is right, while they actually do great damage to Western Governments not realizing that a chain of compromised people have brought them to where they are today. Not a single Chinese face was seen because they remained so far removed from direct contact.

    Just because this is a fabrication, it doesn't mean it isn't representative of the threat that is out there.

    And while you claim the US
    Who can you name that they have mistreated?

    I don't think you can come up with a single innocent person other than those who were killed as a result of being too close to an enemy target. You talk about the US having a goal to cause harm to individuals as if they just get a kick out of hurting innocent people and that's sort of low to suggest. I am looking forward to the names or links you might provide.

    And while you dig around for some link to news article from questionable sources to justify your comments, I know from first hand experiences several instances where foreigners in other countries I have been too, who have expressed great gratitude to the USA is what we have done for them, through me. A farmer in Korea, who I have just happened across while in a local convenience store, inviting several of us to his modest home for dinner. A bus driver on a base in Iraq thanking me for getting rid of Saddam Hussein. News flash, I didn't have anything to do with getting rid of Saddam Hussein, but the US did.

    But you don't come from any of these countries do you? You are from Canada right? One of our trusted allies, a country we share most of our greatest secrets with, who's proximity allows you great protections and considerations. Do you imagine that you do not benefit from this situation?

    I'm going to name a country, and I want you to imagine what your life would be like today, if the US became like that country used to be ....... Cambodia, under Pol Pot.

    Man, if you think the US is evil, I say that you don't know what evil is. You should find out.
     
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  36. Jinto

    Jinto [H]ard|Gawd

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    Canada and U.K. hasn’t banned Huawei yet and they’ve had whatever intelligence we’ve shared for a year...

    As for the rest of your point. I never said anything about “equal partners”. It is pretty simple that if we don’t show our “less reliable allies” the proof, they may not take our word as is...and most haven’t.
     
  37. Laowai

    Laowai Gawd

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    I'm not insisting anything, you're being unnecessarily defensive.
    We're not in any form of disagreement that I see. Misunderstanding perhaps.
    My post did not disagree with yours, in fact, in the post of yours that I replied to you didn't state anything to argue or disagree with. /shrug
    I'll highlight exactly what I responded to since it evidently wasn't clear somehow.
    I hope you and your windmills have a great day.
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
  38. Joust

    Joust 2[H]4U

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    This.
     
  39. Delicieuxz

    Delicieuxz Gawd

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    Assange. Martin Luther King. Also, all the countries the US has illegally invaded, the millions of the US' own citizens who've been tested on unknowingly in harmful ways, all the people extrajudicially assassinated, the people living in countries targeted by US sanctions and propaganda campaigns, all the people in the US targeted by a for-profit prison system in which black people are disproportionately sentenced, people in Guantanomo Bay and CIA black sties, indigenous peoples who had their land stolen, themselves killed... The US has killed around 30 million people since WW2. How many has China killed in that time?

    What I talked of is people the US has sought to harm. You added the "as if they just get a kick out of hurting innocent people" part. You also can't say "as if they just get a kick out of hurting innocent people" of China, and so it's of no point go there.

    And had Nazis won WW2, white, non-Jew populations living in the sphere of the Nazis would benefit from that.

    That's not to compare the US to Nazi Germany. It's to point out that having one's personal circumstances benefit from something isn't an argument that that something is a model of justice and virtue.

    I didn't say the word evil. But, to assert that the US hasn't done evil things, I think you either have a whitehashed idea of what evil is, or a whitewashed perception of things that the US has been responsible for.

    If countries just don't count the evil things they do, then no country will consider itself of having done evil. I'm sure lots of people in all kinds of countries you'd call evil don't consider their countries evil.

    The point is, the US acts outside of the law wherever it wants, it spies on people at will and in disregard of laws, and it targets individuals without respect for human rights and laws. Why would you want to expose yourself to any risk of having any of that done by your own government?
     
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019