HTC hinting at Ver 2?

sharknice

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but samsung Odyssey still has SDE.

This one will too, it just won't be as bad as the current Vive.

Even if it was 8k there would still be a screen door effect to some extent. If you look hard you can see it on LCD and OLED monitors and TVs because there are spaces between the pixels, you just get used to it.
 

Hakaba

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To be honest the SDE of the Vive only bothers me initially when playing games, or when I focus on it. But when I am immersed in a game like Elite Dangerous, I do not really notice it anymore.
 

Iratus

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Shame that they haven't done anything about the weight and thickness of the pad. It's summer here in Australia, 46 degrees (113) the other day. Too f'ing hot for VR.

It'll still be a day 1 purchase for me. Hopefully it'll be high enough res to read the labels on DCS and I suspect that the menu bluriness issues in Elite will finally be properly sorted (it's better but still not ideal)
 

Dayaks

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Shame that they haven't done anything about the weight and thickness of the pad. It's summer here in Australia, 46 degrees (113) the other day. Too f'ing hot for VR.

It'll still be a day 1 purchase for me. Hopefully it'll be high enough res to read the labels on DCS and I suspect that the menu bluriness issues in Elite will finally be properly sorted (it's better but still not ideal)

You can get different pads but I don't think that'll help.

There's been a recent invention... it's amazing. Like god's hand. It's only like $200 to go with your $3,000-4,000 VR setup!! Makes it the perfect temp ALL the time!

download.jpg
 
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dr.stevil

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So rumors currently indicate $350 for the stand alone headset in Q1 and $799 for a bundle with 2.0 lighthouses and wands later in the year. I could stomach upgrading at that price point, but wish they offered some sort of trade-in/upgrade program. The OG Vive without the wands and lighthouses is pretty much worthless :\

 

jbc029

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I usually run it with super sampling turned down but I guess what I'm asking is if I can't Max out the graphics now, what's the point of getting something with higher resolution? Get Volta first? Vive pro later?

Because SS is only for anti-aliasing. If the native resolution of the display is high enough that you don't need software to guesstimate what a pixel should look like, then you should turn down the SS. Keeping it at the same 8x is absolutely getting into diminishing returns territory because the amount of visual information conveyed by an individual pixel, as density increases, becomes less and less.
 

swiftwind

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Because SS is only for anti-aliasing. If the native resolution of the display is high enough that you don't need software to guesstimate what a pixel should look like, then you should turn down the SS. Keeping it at the same 8x is absolutely getting into diminishing returns territory because the amount of visual information conveyed by an individual pixel, as density increases, becomes less and less.
That makes sense. I'll try to play with other settings first before using SS.

As for my question though - do you recommend getting the headset upgraded or the GPU first?

Thanks!
 

jbc029

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A lot of it depends on what you're playing now. If you're playing titles now that you can't run 2xSSAA because it's too taxing, then you'll probably need to upgrade your gpu first. I say that because if you can run everything with 2xSSAA, then after the display update, simple running native resolution with no SSAA will be about the same aliasing quality. If you can only run native resolution with no SSAA *now* in something you enjoy, then you won't be able to run native after the upgrade. You'll most likely have to upscale a lower resolution (like Vive 1.0 resolution) to keep your stable framerate or rely on dynamic resolution scaling.

It's like when you upgrade your physical desktop monitor from 1080p to 1440p or 4k. You can still run 1080p on the higher resolution monitor, and the image *is* clearer and more detailed. However, the "greater detail", due to the lower render resolution, basically ends up clearly showing you the limits of geometry detail at 1080p. It's not a matter of the image being worse. It isn't, because it's exactly the same as it was. The difference is now you'll be able to actually tell that it could be so much better.

Removing or minimizing the "screen door" effect is going to reveal how simple the geometry is in a lot of VR titles. That's not a bad thing either, just evolution of the platform.
 

swiftwind

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A lot of it depends on what you're playing now. If you're playing titles now that you can't run 2xSSAA because it's too taxing, then you'll probably need to upgrade your gpu first. I say that because if you can run everything with 2xSSAA, then after the display update, simple running native resolution with no SSAA will be about the same aliasing quality. If you can only run native resolution with no SSAA *now* in something you enjoy, then you won't be able to run native after the upgrade. You'll most likely have to upscale a lower resolution (like Vive 1.0 resolution) to keep your stable framerate or rely on dynamic resolution scaling.

It's like when you upgrade your physical desktop monitor from 1080p to 1440p or 4k. You can still run 1080p on the higher resolution monitor, and the image *is* clearer and more detailed. However, the "greater detail", due to the lower render resolution, basically ends up clearly showing you the limits of geometry detail at 1080p. It's not a matter of the image being worse. It isn't, because it's exactly the same as it was. The difference is now you'll be able to actually tell that it could be so much better.

Removing or minimizing the "screen door" effect is going to reveal how simple the geometry is in a lot of VR titles. That's not a bad thing either, just evolution of the platform.
So currently I use a GTX1080 and play most VR games on high. The SDE is definitely there but it only bothers me when trying to look at small objects, text or trying to look at anything at a distance. That's why I mentioned using SS because it seems to really help with that stuff.

That's why I was asking if it's worth upgrading to Volta first so I can run at higher resolutions or if the GTX 1080 will perform just fine on the Vive pro with better VR visibility.
 

Iratus

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You can get different pads but I don't think that'll help.

There's been a recent invention... it's amazing. Like god's hand. It's only like $200 to go with your $3,000-4,000 VR setup!! Makes it the perfect temp ALL the time!

View attachment 49465

Steel roof, shit insulation, underpowered aircon. There’s a 3.6kw wall unit literally blows in my face while I play but the room will still be 34 degrees+ on a hot day. Tried it with the ceiling and a pedastal fan blowing as well but I still sweat the pad through.

Saving to remodel, put in ducted air and extend the house when i’ll fix it all. That’s a ways more than $200 sadly.

Back on topic if it really is $350 that’d be awesome
 

LurkerLito

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Personally I look forward to about this level of SDE change:
https://www.hardocp.com/news/2016/11/26/pixelrich_vr_display_eliminates_screen_door_effect
The current Vive is around 456ppi the new one should be around 615ppi so that article link with the image should be a close approximation as to the quality you will see in the new Vive pro headset. I think for me if it is $350 I'd go for it first over a new Volta card. Though the Ti version of the Volta card won't be released till 2019 most likely and I think I'd go for that rather than the regular 1180 version they release this year?

I don't see it mentioned but I am guessing it doesn't have the eye tracking feature?
 

noko

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$350 - buy as soon as I can get it! Should hold over until next generation sets hit, hopefully next year.
 

Dayaks

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$350 - buy as soon as I can get it! Should hold over until next generation sets hit, hopefully next year.

$350 is an instant buy for me too...

I imagine this is probably the "next gen"
 

swiftwind

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According to upload VR - "An HTC representative told us the system should have the same minimum specifications as the current Vive". Whew.
 
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Personally I look forward to about this level of SDE change:
https://www.hardocp.com/news/2016/11/26/pixelrich_vr_display_eliminates_screen_door_effect
The current Vive is around 456ppi the new one should be around 615ppi so that article link with the image should be a close approximation as to the quality you will see in the new Vive pro headset.
Pixels per area on it's own has very little to do with how apparent SDE is. It's the size of the gaps between physical (sub)pixels that's important. And that's harder to improve AFAIK.
 

Youn

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can't they diffuse the lenses to close any visible gaps though? seems at a certain point that would be effective enough, at least until pixel density/fill is high enough that it's not needed...

also, retinal projection... is it not the future and does it not have zero screen door effect? what's the problem using that tech over 2d cellphone screens?
 

sharknice

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can't they diffuse the lenses to close any visible gaps though? seems at a certain point that would be effective enough, at least until pixel density/fill is high enough that it's not needed...

also, retinal projection... is it not the future and does it not have zero screen door effect? what's the problem using that tech over 2d cellphone screens?

You can't evenly diffuse the entire screen through a lense, but you could probably add a layer on the screen that does something.

I remember reading about a headset meant for movie watching that did something to remove the screen door effect, but it didn't use oled.
 
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I remember people experimenting with films on Rift dev kits. Not sure what they used, but some were very pleased with the results. The downside was that it made things look even fuzzier. With some tweaks, perhaps a film made specifically for the display, I'm sure a good trade-off can be found.
 

sharknice

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I remember people experimenting with films on Rift dev kits. Not sure what they used, but some were very pleased with the results. The downside was that it made things look even fuzzier. With some tweaks, perhaps a film made specifically for the display, I'm sure a good trade-off can be found.

Yeah it's going to be either blurrier or have more of a screen door effect. The only way to get rid of both is higher resolution.

Unless they come out with some new panel tech that allows them to stack the sub pixels.
 

Etherton

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Considering this HTC announcement... what would the going rate for a used Vive go for? Might pick one up.
 

Krazy925

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Considering this HTC announcement... what would the going rate for a used Vive go for? Might pick one up.
Somewhere between $450-$500 currently in the Bay Area of California (Craigslist).

Surprisingly we only have 2 for sale.
 

Etherton

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Don't suppose anyone [H] is considering selling theirs? PM me.
 

bobzdar

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Don't suppose anyone [H] is considering selling theirs? PM me.

I don't know that you'll get much use out of just the headset - most that have one and are upgrading will keep the lighthouses and the controllers. You'd have to find somebody that's selling the whole system, not somebody upgrading.
 

heatlesssun

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I don't know that you'll get much use out of just the headset - most that have one and are upgrading will keep the lighthouses and the controllers. You'd have to find somebody that's selling the whole system, not somebody upgrading.

I've been thinking about this as well. I looks like the only benefit of the new lighthouses is a larger tracking area so I'm guessing most people will keep theirs and just get the new headset and the headsets are useless without the controllers and lighthouses so I wonder how much market value a used headset would be. Of course a lot of that will be driven by the cost of the new headset which the rumor above in this thread is saying $350, so a used V1 headset would probably be tough to sell for more that a couple hundred if that I'm guessing.
 

bobzdar

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DLP is ideal tech for this (same with projectors) as the inter pixel gap is tiny compared to lcd or oled. 1080p chips are common and cheap, so I could see using 2 of those (one per eye) for decent iq with zero screen door without having to push 2x 4k pixels.
 
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SBSuperfly

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DLP is ideal tech for this (same with projectors) as the inter pixel gap is tiny compared to lcd or oled. 1080p chips are common and cheap, so I could see using 2 of those (one per eye) for decent iq with zero screen door without having to push 2x 4k pixels.
Not very ideal when you consider the heat generated by DLP
 

bobzdar

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Not very ideal when you consider the heat generated by DLP

The heat is from the light source, and something that small won't need too much, could probably use led like pico projectors that are out there. Look how much smaller the avegant glyph system is compared to those using screens.
 

LurkerLito

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The problem with the DLP is going to be the alignment. If you have ever seen a DLP projector that got it's alignment screwed up it's a horrible thing and that happened on a unit that was just sitting on a stand whose only source of vibration was the subwoofer in the room. The Avegant Glyph style is probably going to be fine for sitting down and watching a movie, but they will run into problems once the head is constantly moving and dodging left, right, up, and down rapidly over time. Still I like how they solved the glasses problem. I'd love to be able to adjust the focus of each lens in my vive without some fixes like buying a other pair of prescriptions lenses then getting some mounting device to use it, or squeezing in glasses to the headset. Yeah contacts are an option for some but for me I am really uncomfortable with contacts so that isn't an option.
 

bobzdar

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The problem with the DLP is going to be the alignment. If you have ever seen a DLP projector that got it's alignment screwed up it's a horrible thing and that happened on a unit that was just sitting on a stand whose only source of vibration was the subwoofer in the room. The Avegant Glyph style is probably going to be fine for sitting down and watching a movie, but they will run into problems once the head is constantly moving and dodging left, right, up, and down rapidly over time. Still I like how they solved the glasses problem. I'd love to be able to adjust the focus of each lens in my vive without some fixes like buying a other pair of prescriptions lenses then getting some mounting device to use it, or squeezing in glasses to the headset. Yeah contacts are an option for some but for me I am really uncomfortable with contacts so that isn't an option.

It's the same thing with current screen based headsets, if things get out of alignment it's going to cause blurry optics. Look how small the sweet spot is on some of them. I have 2 dlp projectors and they've been fine - one ran for 10 years with only a colorwheel replacement before the bulb finally went, still works with a new bulb. Now I use it for travel, no issues. They're pretty robust but of course it depends on the maker. Zero burn-in issues as well. If you've ever seen an LCD projector next to a dlp one, the dlp is usually much sharper across the image with much less visible pixels given the same resolution. That sounds ideal for a headset. I'm not sure what the technical challenges are but it sounds like at least one maker has solved them enough for a headset to be built in a much smaller form factor than we currently have, though they just had 720p chips. Dual 1080p chips would probably make for a tremendous image, and even if the headset is twice as big as the Avegant, it'll still be a lot smaller than current OLED and LCD based headsets.
 

sharknice

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It's the same thing with current screen based headsets, if things get out of alignment it's going to cause blurry optics. Look how small the sweet spot is on some of them. I have 2 dlp projectors and they've been fine - one ran for 10 years with only a colorwheel replacement before the bulb finally went, still works with a new bulb. Now I use it for travel, no issues. They're pretty robust but of course it depends on the maker. Zero burn-in issues as well. If you've ever seen an LCD projector next to a dlp one, the dlp is usually much sharper across the image with much less visible pixels given the same resolution. That sounds ideal for a headset. I'm not sure what the technical challenges are but it sounds like at least one maker has solved them enough for a headset to be built in a much smaller form factor than we currently have, though they just had 720p chips. Dual 1080p chips would probably make for a tremendous image, and even if the headset is twice as big as the Avegant, it'll still be a lot smaller than current OLED and LCD based headsets.

I think it's hard to do low persistence with DLP because of the color wheel.
 

nomas

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Definitely need higher rez for VR. I had a DK2 for a while. Skyrim was amazing in VR (using Vireio Perception adapter) . Even with the screen door effect, I found myself reaching out to try to touch items. Once we reach 4K per eye, get ready to be mind blown 24x7 haha.

The difference between VR and 3D gaming is in VR you aren't just playing a game, you are in the game! (;
 

noko

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Playing The Talos Principle, man that game is good in VR - good game anyways but VR makes it come to life. Also fell in love with teleporting - just a faster way to get around vice trucking it. I guess I got over the ghost floating to locations.
 

admiralperpetual

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Playing The Talos Principle, man that game is good in VR - good game anyways but VR makes it come to life. Also fell in love with teleporting - just a faster way to get around vice trucking it. I guess I got over the ghost floating to locations.

is it worth buying the game twice for..? i played through it already and own the DLC as well.. are the puzzles all the same?
 

Creig

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I think it's hard to do low persistence with DLP because of the color wheel.
DLP doesn't necessarily require a color wheel. LED or laser can be used as a light source instead. I'm still using an LED based DLP Samsung HLT-5087 television in my living room. It looks just as good today as it did when I bought it nearly 10 years ago. No possibility of burn in, no dead pixels to worry about, etc. It just keeps working great. People who come over ask why I haven't upgraded to a nice thin LCD TV yet. I tell them that I'm usually looking at the front of it, not the sides.
 

noko

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is it worth buying the game twice for..? i played through it already and own the DLC as well.. are the puzzles all the same?
Yes, the same, just feels much different in VR. I never did finish the first edition so once I get to the parts I've have not played it will be new.
 

Bravo25

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I was not happy with my Vive and the crappy screen. Just sold it for 380 dollars and will put it towards the next Vive or other VR headset that offers much better screen.
 
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