Godmachine
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Doesn't mean anything really , just means the HP has an extended color range or wide color gamut. For most people it makes zero difference so don't worry about it honestly.
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HP ZR24w
- Thread starter odindusk
- Start date
72% NTSC vs 97% sRGB, no?
NTSC is wider than sRGB, so that comparison is meaningless.
Anyway the Dell U2410 has a wide gamut and the HP ZR24W has a standard gamut. Wide gamut is only useful in colour-managed applications like Photoshop. Using a wide-gamut monitor with any non-colour-managed application will give over-saturated colours, that's why I'd avoid the Dell U2410.
As CutterX just pointed out, this is not true.
The HP ZR24w is not a wide gamut display, but the Dell U2410 is.
For people like me who want to avoid advanced color and calibration issues, it makes a difference: the HP ZR24w is a better choice.
Makaveli6103
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Ok great thanks guys.
I'm new on this forum but has been following this thread for a while. I ordered a u2410 that I think I will return due to the tinting issues. However, the HP zr24w I can not consider an alternative before we have some more info about the input lag. I simply must know the input lag of the screen and the tests this far has not been good enought, thou I do appreciate the effort. What would be awesome for a test if to have a splitter with the HP and a CRT connected on and then with high speed camera have it photographed several times. That way we'd know the input lag. It would be of high value to me and a lot of others I'm sure.
Erasmus354
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Thought I would add that I ordered 1 on Friday from Costcentral and my order has disappeared into the ether. It doesn't show up in their system on the website, they say the order doesn't exist. I would steer clear of them for now.
Is it on your front porch?
I ordered one from cost central last week and tried to go into "track order" on their website, and it couldn't find it.
However, i went into "my account" --> "recent orders" and was able to navigate to tracking info from there - it's apparently arriving tomorrow
However, i went into "my account" --> "recent orders" and was able to navigate to tracking info from there - it's apparently arriving tomorrow
It means you'll see more colors.
This is usually only useful if you're into photoshop or graphics design or photography (where you edit in photoshop) because you want to make sure what you edit is what you'll see in print...I'm in this category.
For hardcore gamers, it's generally not useful because IPS monitors usually have display lag so when you play a game, what you see is a few millisec after the computer has rendered it.
No.
There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.
Dell and NEC are 72% of NTSC. ~= Standard sRGB.
The HP is 97% of sRGB. ~= Standard sRGB.
These are NOT WIDE GAMUT , they are all aimed at being normal gamut monitor which will give natural looking colors in all your applications. Which is a DAMN GOOD THING for 99% of us.
BrunoPuntzJones
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Cost Central policy is DOA only. You open it and it turns on, it's yours.
This article had some useful suggestions relative to input lag:
http://www.pcworld.com/article/183928/find_and_fix_input_lag_in_your_hdtv_or_monitor.html
Unfortunately, I cannot find any OSD functions that might reduce input lag that are not already "OFF" by default. (All my prior tests and pics were at default settings.)
However, as the article mentions, if you really need to reduce input lag, try the VGA input because he said that some manufacturers limit the pre-processing that affects lag to the digital inputs. (Of course, why would you buy such a monitor and then use VGA? I guess for occasional hardcore gaming you could just switch the cables around, so this suggestion may be useful to some people.)
Also, he said there may be some settings in the specific applications that may help reduce input lag.
I did more input lag tests of the HP vs. BOTH my Samsung 204B monitors. The first tests I posted the other day were against one Samsung. However, when I ran the tests against the other Samsung, the HP was between 1/2 and 1 bar ahead consistently. So I ran the test of Samsung vs. Samsung, and yes, the one Samsung is also that much faster than the other.
In rerunning the tests against the HP and the faster Samsung (the one I initially posted here), they are almost identical, as we would suspect given the results the other day.
Hopefully this indicates that the HP may be at least a bit faster than the Samsung. And hopefully it is closer to the monitor it is replacing, the LP2475w which I think is around 25ms.
Edit: Also, remember that I am not testing the HP at its native resolution because the test requires using clone mode, and my Samsungs are only 1600x1200. ToastyX said this usually does not matter, but may with this monitor.
Anyway, I can post the pics of the above tests if anyone wants, but my summary is probably sufficient - and as people have noted, at least somewhat inconclusive.
Last night I actually dreamed that I had a CRT monitor and could run the lag tests properly - I never thought an old CRT would become the monitor of my dreams.
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
P.S. Is there a better place on this Forum than this thread to post this, as yet, unanswered question:
In the following screen I took a pic of this thread expanded to all 3 screens:
Eyefinity of HardForum
Is there a way to get the horizontal lines aligned better, or is this just the way it is when two of the monitors are 20" and the middle one is 24"? The overall resolution is 4800x1200, or 3x1600 by 1200.
In other words, is there a way to have the middle monitor display the same size as the Samsung, at least horizontally? It can do that vertically via the option "Fill to Aspect Ratio", but I want the black bars running horizontally, not vertically. I didn't see anything in Catalyst relative to this, but then again, I am a noob.
Thanks!
http://www.pcworld.com/article/183928/find_and_fix_input_lag_in_your_hdtv_or_monitor.html
Unfortunately, I cannot find any OSD functions that might reduce input lag that are not already "OFF" by default. (All my prior tests and pics were at default settings.)
However, as the article mentions, if you really need to reduce input lag, try the VGA input because he said that some manufacturers limit the pre-processing that affects lag to the digital inputs. (Of course, why would you buy such a monitor and then use VGA? I guess for occasional hardcore gaming you could just switch the cables around, so this suggestion may be useful to some people.)
Also, he said there may be some settings in the specific applications that may help reduce input lag.
I did more input lag tests of the HP vs. BOTH my Samsung 204B monitors. The first tests I posted the other day were against one Samsung. However, when I ran the tests against the other Samsung, the HP was between 1/2 and 1 bar ahead consistently. So I ran the test of Samsung vs. Samsung, and yes, the one Samsung is also that much faster than the other.
In rerunning the tests against the HP and the faster Samsung (the one I initially posted here), they are almost identical, as we would suspect given the results the other day.
Hopefully this indicates that the HP may be at least a bit faster than the Samsung. And hopefully it is closer to the monitor it is replacing, the LP2475w which I think is around 25ms.
Edit: Also, remember that I am not testing the HP at its native resolution because the test requires using clone mode, and my Samsungs are only 1600x1200. ToastyX said this usually does not matter, but may with this monitor.
Anyway, I can post the pics of the above tests if anyone wants, but my summary is probably sufficient - and as people have noted, at least somewhat inconclusive.
Last night I actually dreamed that I had a CRT monitor and could run the lag tests properly - I never thought an old CRT would become the monitor of my dreams.
****************************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
P.S. Is there a better place on this Forum than this thread to post this, as yet, unanswered question:
In the following screen I took a pic of this thread expanded to all 3 screens:
Eyefinity of HardForum
Is there a way to get the horizontal lines aligned better, or is this just the way it is when two of the monitors are 20" and the middle one is 24"? The overall resolution is 4800x1200, or 3x1600 by 1200.
In other words, is there a way to have the middle monitor display the same size as the Samsung, at least horizontally? It can do that vertically via the option "Fill to Aspect Ratio", but I want the black bars running horizontally, not vertically. I didn't see anything in Catalyst relative to this, but then again, I am a noob.
Thanks!
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Mine's arriving today! I'll post my thoughts because I lack the technical prowess to write a review. Someone earlier mentioned that input lag from IPS is from long ago and that recent technology (h2-ips?) has compensated for this. It's rated at 5ms...only 3ms shy of the 25.5" ASUS. What gives? Wiki says the same thing, but also states that these were more symptoms of old technology.
I am so close to picking up one of these. I can get it through work and get a discount too . God damn tax and fees...
Just waiting on some input lag numbers!
. God damn tax and fees...
Code:
PRODUCT DESCRIPTION QUANTITY PRICE/EA TOTAL
===============================================================================
HP3000460 HP PROMO ZR24W-LCD MONITOR 1 432.07 432.07
MFG Part#: VM633A8#ABA
Note: ETA 2-3 WEEKS
-----------------------
Subtotal 432.07
OES ECO FEES + 12.03
Shipping Via PUROLATOR GRND + 7.00
G.S.T. + 22.56
P.S.T. + 36.08
-----------------------
GRAND Total 509.74
=======================Just waiting on some input lag numbers!
The response rate of 5ms is relative to the pixels' responsiveness to change, whereas input lag is more about the speed that the video signal takes to even get to the pixels. (I am a monitor noob, but this is my lay person's understanding of this difference.)
Regarding compensating for input lag, I also read that it can be reduced by turning vsync off within an application. Does this make sense?
Decivox - HP sells them for $425 with a return guarantee and got mine here in two days - with free shipping IF YOU CALL.
http://h71016.www7.hp.com/dstore/Mi...=2953&BaseId=32987&oi=E9CED&BEID=19701&SBLID=
(They still have the wrong spec sheet there - I think it is the spec sheet for the ZR22w.)
Oh yeah, you may have to give them a business name - I just gave them my name and added the word "Consulting" at the end. No problem with that.
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Here is what Dell says about the U2410's color gamut: 110% color gamut (typical)
http://www.dell.com/us/en/dfo/peripherals/monitor-dell-u2410/pd.aspx?refid=monitor-dell-u2410&s=dfo
That would seem to indicate it is a "wide gamut" display according to this guide:
http://forums.overclockers.com.au/showthread.php?t=723315
If you are referencing the Dell U2410, it absolutely IS wide gamut.
Yea for the American site... the screen isnt even listed on the Canadian store yet.
Unfortunately, I don't think that's possible, but you can always play around with this pixel pitch calculator. The screens will only be perfectly aligned if you find a resolution that results in exactly the same pixel pitch on all three monitors. Since your Samsung monitors have a pixel pitch of 0.2553 and your HP monitor a pixel pitch of 0.2692, the middle screen, your HP monitor, will always be slightly bigger or magnified, despite all three monitors having the same resolution.
That's true for total system input lag, but it will not decrease monitor input lag. Total system input lag can further be decreased by increasing the mouse polling rate by the way; that is, if your mouse is USB connected. The polling rate is normally 125Hz and some programs can increase that to 1000Hz. That results in more CPU utilization, but at the same time, it will decrease input lag somewhat.
Just to clarify, since your response could lead to further confusion - The U2410 is not 72% of NTSC. The U2410 is rated by Dell themselves as 102% NTSC in its native wide gamut mode.
A 100% sRGB colour space is approx 72% of NTSC which means a wide gamut screen like the U2410 (at 102% NTSC) goes way beyond an ordinary sRGB screen in terms of colour gamut. Just thought I'd clarify..
Sorry about my assuming you were in the US. Kind of silly of me.
Thanks for the answer - at least now I know. So the real resolution is to get two more of these 24" monitors over the coming months. The current set up is not bad for gaming because your eye is mainly on the center screen - e.g., on Dirt 2 I have to be very focused on the center screen, and the side screens just let me see what is going on peripherally and adds some real depth and immersion, though not as well as I would like ultimately.[X]eltic;1035521014 said:
It also works fine for most of my work and is ergonomically much better because now I am draggging windows over to the left monitor as much as I do the right monitor - so I am not always just looking center and right, but left, center, and right now. This is the main reason I got interested in a displayport monitor in the first place.
I see. I am using a steering wheel, so I will check this option out for that too.[X]eltic;1035521014 said:
Much appreciated - a virtual beer to you!
What tends to slow IPS panels down is they often come with more image processing options, and these often increase the input lag unless a through mode is provided to bypass this. Although the through mode on something like the U2711 seems to make very little difference for whatever reason, the through mode (aka game mode) does tend to nudge the U2410 below an average of 1 frame of lag, which is fairly usable for gaming. So there's no huge reason IPS panels can't be pretty close to TN panels in terms of input lag.
Secondly, a wide gamut does not mean you will see more colours. It is often precisely the opposite. What it means is you will see more intense colours. What determines the amount of colours you can see is the native bit depth of the panel. 8 Bit panels can have 256 values for red, green and blue. (256 x 256 x 256 = 16.7 million colours), so you are seeing the same amount of colours as long as the panel is the same bit depth.
The difference is, on a wide gamut screen, Red 255 produces more intense red than Red 255 on a non wide gamut screen. In comparison an ordinary sRGB screen's red looks slightly orange, and its green is more yellow. Blue looks much the same, although there's a small difference there too. Sounds good so far right? The wide gamut screen produces better greens and better reds. Well, here's the BIG problem AND why even colour management does not provide a good answer in most cases..
First of all, almost all content out there is produced for ordinary sRGB standard gamut screens. So, when you look at a picture, a movie, or a game, it expects this colour space. When you draw those colours on a wide gamut screen we've already established above that a full value red or green 255 look different. So, unless you back off on the values, your reds will literally glow like they're radioactive on sRGB content, and your greens will look darker because it usually expects greens which contain more yellow etc.
So, what do you do about this? Well, people suggest colour managed applications are the answer. That is when, for example, people load an .ICM file into the Windows Colour Management settings in the control panel of Windows. This ICM file instructs colour management aware applications that this device is a wide gamut screen and, if the application is going to draw a red with the full value of 255 then, if the content is designed for sRGB screens, it should really turn that Red 255 value down to, for example, Red 231 so that it looks like a "normal" sRGB red 255 value. Since most content is designed for sRGB screens many applications will also assume that images untagged with any specific colour information are also sRGB, so they will probably be loading most content as sRGB.
So where's the problem? Well, think about it for a minute. Here you are thinking colour management is great - it's auto converting content to the correct colours so they look like a normal sRGB screen when they need to. What's wrong with that? The problem is that Red 255 on an sRGB screen is now Red 231 on the wide gamut screen when viewing sRGB content. This means that the application just threw away about 10% of the unique possible red values in sRGB content in order to approximate what would look like normal sRGB colours on your wide gamut screen. Now do the same for green or blue. You've hopefully realized that what was once a wide gamut screen with 16.7 million possible colour values is now a screen which shows literally millions of fewer unique colour values for sRGB content than an ordinary sRGB screen viewing the same image.
In reality this isn't as bad as it sounds because the actual range of colours are now quite similar. But it still means that the wide gamut screen has several million less unique values in the image than the sRGB screen does, because the sRGB screen gets to keep all 256 RGB values, whereas the wide gamut screen can't use some of those values without making the content look wrong. It literally has to squeeze the colour values into a smaller space.
The only way around this is to use a native 10 bit panel which provides 1024 RGB values, since then you can simulate all 256 RGB values inside a colour managed application without having to throw a few million values away in order to have the colour look right, which is what must be done on 8 bit wide gamut panels.
Personally I think you can see this difference between simulated sRGB and a real sRGB screen, probably because the reduced amount of values in turn means less contrast, leading to a slightly more washed out appearance than would otherwise be the case. Hands up how many have noticed that with the U2410?
Of course, you can opt not to use ICM files. But then you lose the ability to automatically handle things without being forced to change modes. Plus, if you look at a fairly wide gamut (102% NTSC according to their engineering department) screen like the U2410 in its factory menu (at least on hardware A00 screens) even there you'll see the possible range of values has likely been dialed back to 220-something in order to achieve accurate sRGB in its SRGB mode.
Had I known all this personally I'd have avoided wide gamut screens until 10 bit panels were common place and make all of this stuff more of a non-issue. Hopefully, if you've read the above, you'll also realize why wide gamut screens are generally a bad idea for most people - at least until 10 bit panels and colour management of the whole Windows desktop and maybe even Direct X are common place so consumers don't have to be annoyed by all this crap.
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richierich
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Just pulled the trigger. Now the waiting game begins.
Wait a sec...the Dell U2410 are 72% of sRGB? How can it be wide gamut then?
And for photoshop/graphics applications, wouldn't you want it to be slightly over 100% sRGB coverage to make sure you can cover all of it? Meaning the Dell U2410 should be better?
I couldn't find the 97% number for the ZR24w...looked at the HP web site's specs and the manual...
Look in the spec sheet for it.
The Dell u2410 has sRGB and adobeRGB emulation modes that do a good job of emulation each.
Thanks...most informative post I've seen in a while. So, net result is if you want to get a wide gamut screen, make sure you have a 10-bit panel (doesn't exist AFAIK until you get into the $600-800 range w/ the new Dell U2710 or the Eizos at much higher cost)?
Otherwise, it's a lot better to get something that is as close to 100% sRGB coverage as possible which this ZR24w seems to be?
I was so close to ordering the Dell U2410 but after reading this thread,
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19302919.aspx
I quickly closed the window.
I just ordered 2 of the HP's, hopefully they are good monitors!
I have been watching this thread for a while and trying to wait for people to review them. Last night before I went to bed there were 22 in stock, when I woke up there were 20. I caught up reading the thread, refreshed costcentral, and there were only 7 left. Glad I got my order through. Now only 4 left guys, hurry up!
http://en.community.dell.com/forums/t/19302919.aspx
I quickly closed the window.
I just ordered 2 of the HP's, hopefully they are good monitors!
I have been watching this thread for a while and trying to wait for people to review them. Last night before I went to bed there were 22 in stock, when I woke up there were 20. I caught up reading the thread, refreshed costcentral, and there were only 7 left. Glad I got my order through. Now only 4 left guys, hurry up!
richierich
Weaksauce
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3 in stock now
I never said anything about the U2410. I was responding to your post indicating that Makavelis post contained info about wide gamut.
Nothing in that post says wide gamut. Nothing says anything about the U2410 either. And there is a mistake that 72% should be of NTSC. Which makes all those values essentially equal.
You essentially responded to this post saying something in there was wide Gamut. Nothing is.
Yes the U2410 is wide gamut, but neither I nor the originator of this chain mentioned the U2410. It could be the Dell 2209 and NEC EA231, both of which are standard gamut.
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Just received the ZR24W ordered from HP on Friday. There was a bit of a foul-up in my order so they sent it FedEx priority with free shipping. Am in Texas (high sales tax) so had to pay about $35 on top of the $425 from HP but well worth it. Have had several followup e-mails from HP to see how things are going. They have really been super. Sorry they don't make the high end stuff I use or would buy more from them! Set up was almost too simple and it works great OOTB. Have it hooked up via display port to XFX 5870. The viewing angle is so much better than the Samsung T240 I was using and text is much sharper. The color is just a bit less saturated than I would like but will take care of that either with CCC, Windows or the handy HP Wizard thingy included on the CD. Haven't installed anything from the CD so far, just playing with it at stock settings. Don't notice any granularity on the screen, colors appear uniform up, down and across. Response time same or better than the T240--don't notice any type of lag with mouse/cursor. First monitor I have had that is fully adjustable through all the angles and that is a wonderful thing! My only beef is that the little strip of plastic across the top of the frame is a bit pushed down and makes the monitor appear to sag a tad at the top--have been lifting up on it to try and get it straight and hoping once it gets warm it will straighten out. Not a bad thing but just a bit of an annoyance. Don't see any dead or bright pixels. Sorry I don't have a camera to take any pictures but so far I couldn't be more pleased. The T240 is a great monitor and I have two but was looking for something with a sharper image and better viewing angles. The old eyes don't get better with time. Am about to do some playing with the stuff from the CD and see where that leads.
Wow. That is enough reason for me to order any future ones from HP again.
Edit: Very nice summary tordogs. Yeah, the adjustability is great too. I explored the CD hoping to find something more about a Gaming option like the Dell has, but didn't find anything. If you do, please let us know. The CD does have some calibration software I will probably try later once I figure I am done with OOTB pics and tests.
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Thanks for clarifying that.
We assumed you were talking about the U2410, when you said "the Dell".
another-user
Gawd
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im not sure what peoples problem is with costcentral. i just looked over their warranty stuff and it looks fine to me.
*Please note that due to manufacturer requirements, there are some items that are not returnable for any reason. Some examples would be items from the following companies or categories; APC, IBM, Lenovo, Compaq, Hewlett-Packard, Primera, Xerox, Lexmark, Polycom and all Printers/Photocopiers. Defective items will be serviced or replaced by the manufacturer.*
*Please note that due to manufacturer requirements, there are some items that are not returnable for any reason. Some examples would be items from the following companies or categories; APC, IBM, Lenovo, Compaq, Hewlett-Packard, Primera, Xerox, Lexmark, Polycom and all Printers/Photocopiers. Defective items will be serviced or replaced by the manufacturer.*