how to avoid W/C mixed metal corrosion (copper blocks, but non-copper fittings)?

[echn111]

I've decided to go back to watercooling after many years.

This time I'm using distilled water and dyes rather than all-in-one pre-mix. I'd like to avoid corrosion resulting from mixed metals coming into contact with water. There are many threads on the topic but they almost all simply say that distilled water is great and you'll be fine if you simply avoid mixed metals and it's a waste of cash to get anti-corrosives. Seems reasonable, but how do you avoid mixed metals?.

My blocks are all copper as is my radiator, but the fittings I'm using aren't copper. Seems to me that the fittings are exposed to the water just as much as the water blocks, meaning my loop is mixed metal. In fact, given that few fittings are copper as it's a fairly soft metal, this means almost everyone with copper blocks is going to have a mixed metal loop. Yet there are many threads saying just go with distilled water with your copper blocks and you'll be fine, and none mention what to do about your fittings, which are unlikely to be copper.

So if you use normal copper blocks, how do you avoid a mixed metal loop and having to use anti-corrosives with distilled water? Or perhaps the fittings are safe - if so, would appreciate someone explaining why my loop is safe.

p.s. and what about silver coils? It's a different metal and any mixed metal should contribute a bit to corrosion, yet the assumption seems to be that it's safe. Any ideas why putting yet another different metal type in your watercooling loop is safe? Or should pure distilled water (without anti-corrosives/anti-bio) be avoided?

 

[Bluesun311]

Copper brass and nickel don't react with each other much so everyone mostly uses plastic or nickel plated brass fittings with copper blocks. It's pretty clear that nickel/brass/copper are similar enough and stable enough elements not to corrode very fast while in contact with water in a closed loop.

Now what you doooo need to worry about is tin solder particles from your radiators. The Tin will definitely react with the other metals you find in loops because it is dissimilar from them. So you want to spend a lot of time flushing out your radiators.

 

[geok1ng]

avoid dyes.
you want color, use colored tubing. dyes precipitate and become gunk.
i trust brass more than nickel after a plated EK waterblocked leaked and killed $1500 worth of hardware

 

[magoo]

First of all, the biggest culprit in cooling is aluminum.
Simply stay away from it unless everything is aluminum.

Secondly, copper blocks and radiators will exist together just fine with limited corrosion.
Connectors are pretty much all coated brass or nickel, something you can't avoid and they have limited reactivity.

Silver kill coils are generally the standard algaecide in most loops....while not 100% inert, silver has limited reactivity with the loop and is by far the easiest method to use for algae control.

Dyes and other additives are not necessarily corrosive as they more simply add viscosity to the fluid and over time will form solids on the tubes, fittings and pumps.This fine solid debris also settles in the block channels and will degrade performance.

For more specific information, I suggest goning to RealRedRaider.com and read some of the excellent threads they have. There's a member there who is a chemist-engineer and really goes in depth on metals and their characteristics.

 

[magoo]

avoid dyes.
you want color, use colored tubing. dyes precipitate and become gunk.
i trust brass more than nickel after a plated EK waterblocked leaked and killed $1500 worth of hardware

The EK blocks in question didn't leak.
The nickel plating was defective (please refer to RealRedRaider.com for the full story) and the nickel essentially flaked off during operation.

EK tried to blame the problem on the user and additives to the fluids used, including silver coils; which was proven incorrect.

 

[Erasmus354]

Copper brass and nickel don't react with each other much so everyone mostly uses plastic or nickel plated brass fittings with copper blocks. It's pretty clear that nickel/brass/copper are similar enough and stable enough elements not to corrode very fast while in contact with water in a closed loop.

Now what you doooo need to worry about is tin solder particles from your radiators. The Tin will definitely react with the other metals you find in loops because it is dissimilar from them. So you want to spend a lot of time flushing out your radiators.

Ummmm no....

Tin is closer to copper than nickel is in terms of electrode potential source, and neither is really much of a risk of galvanic corrosion with copper. You flush your radiator to get rid of the stuff that you don't want in the loop (flux, particulates, general gunk) not because the solder would cause corrosion.

The main metals you need to worry about are primarily aluminum and secondarily steel (some fittings are plated steel). Most other metals used in watercooling parts (mostly brass/bronze--both copper alloys) aren't of much concern for corrosion.

 

[Bluesun311]

Ummmm no....

Tin is closer to copper than nickel is in terms of electrode potential source, and neither is really much of a risk of galvanic corrosion with copper. You flush your radiator to get rid of the stuff that you don't want in the loop (flux, particulates, general gunk) not because the solder would cause corrosion.

The main metals you need to worry about are primarily aluminum and secondarily steel (some fittings are plated steel). Most other metals used in watercooling parts (mostly brass/bronze--both copper alloys) aren't of much concern for corrosion.

Do you think I just pulled these ideas out of my ear?

No one uses aluminum in blocks anymore. Didn't figure we needed to warn anybody about it.
But yeah read this:
http://martinsliquidlab.org/2012/01/24/corrosion-explored/
And don't think you're too smart to learn new things. Tin will cause corrosion and people get it in their loops from the Tin solder in the radiators used to attach the fins to the water channels.

 

[echn111]

Had a look around the internet on this and it's pretty consistent:

The suppliers/manufacturers pretty much all say to use fluid containing anti-corrosives and anti-bio to protect your investment.

The more vocal old timers on those WC sites on this subject seem to be mostly "distilled water and silver coil is the only way to go" and if anyone says otherwise they're trying to rip you off, end-of.

Not much of a middle ground.

The truth is probably somewhere in the middle, and they're probably both right in their own way. Distilled water is indeed cheaper where I live by $2/liter. I understand the corrosion risk is low with certain combinations like silver and copper and brass and nickel. But it's not zero risk.

I'm going for peace of mind and low maintenance, and other than not being able to call myself a water cooling purist, I don't see any reason to take a risk. So I'm just going to pay an extra $2 to get a standard pre-mix with anti-corrosives and not worry about it any more.

 

[Bluesun311]

I don't really like to talk about silver coils because it's one of those things that can't really be proven to work on everything but does work on algae. I am not doing any silver coil because I personally don't think it's necessary, although I don't think there's any significant risk at all from adding a coil. Silver isn't going to react with water + copper/Ni/brass very readily.

I'm using Primochill Liquid Utopia and distilled water based on a good amount of research and recommendations from folks who've been doing this a while.

I start to roll my eyes when people try to segway from silver's antimicrobial effect to its supposed "healing powers".

 

[magoo]

I don't really like to talk about silver coils because it's one of those things that can't really be proven to work on everything but does work on algae. I am not doing any silver coil because I personally don't think it's necessary, although I don't think there's any significant risk at all from adding a coil. Silver isn't going to react with water + copper/Ni/brass very readily.

I'm using Primochill Liquid Utopia and distilled water based on a good amount of research and recommendations from folks who've been doing this a while.

I start to roll my eyes when people try to segway from silver's antimicrobial effect to its supposed "healing powers".

Metal ions have been used quite a bit in microbiology over the years as antimicrobials, silver IS a very good antimicrobial/antifungal, but it's expensive compared to alcohol; so isn't universally used anymore for that reason.

No it's not magical, but it works very well in watercooling.

I prefer it because I just add it in and forget it.
If I change out my system.....wipe the coil down with an alcohol swab and reuse it.

 

[phillyboy]

If you are really concerned about galvanic corrosion then you can get a corrosion inhibitor that has ethylene glycol in it. Feser makes a corrosion blocker that I am currently using in my loop: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/febafbcobl.html. They also list it as having anti-algea properties as well.

But for the typical mixed-metals used in a loop (nickel, copper, silver) at the lower temperatures that we usually run the water at any galvanic corrosion is going to be a long, slow process.

 

[phillyboy]

Ehh, now that I've torn my loop down I'm going to silver coil in there as well, as the Feser Base didn't quite cut it on the anti-algae side. Those tubes got some green tint to them...

 

[magoo]

Ehh, now that I've torn my loop down I'm going to silver coil in there as well, as the Feser Base didn't quite cut it on the anti-algae side. Those tubes got some green tint to them...

For a while a long time ago I used Swiftech Hydrx solution.....what a scam.....essentially selling you watered down automotive antifreeze (ethylene glycol).......

and yes, it does turn any tubes green over time and if used too long you will start to notice precipitate.

 

[phillyboy]

Yeah I'd rather not have any floaties in my loop either . I had noticed some bigger green spots on the tubing too, thankfully this loop has only been up for a month or so.

I'll just stick to distilled and the kill coil then when I rebuild, thanks for the heads up.

 

[failwheeldrive]

I love the arguments against dyes in a loop... flat out hilarious.

Adding a few drops of liquid dye into 1.5+ liters of coolant will somehow result in enough solid mass formation to clog a loop. Please, that's violating the laws of physics lol. Mayhems products have been proven to be nearly bulletproof at this point, with the main exception being the Aurora line, which was developed as a show coolant for temporary (read: a few days) use in simple loops. Even that has been vastly improved with the new Aurora 2 series. Pastel and X1 are excellent coolant choices for their stability and antimicrobial/anticorrosive properties. I (along with hundreds of others) have used Pastel in multiple loops without a single issue. There's no way I'd contaminate a loop with plain distilled and a kill coil. Even if it's a tiny amount of silver, it's still far enough away from copper and nickel in the galvanic index that it can cause corrosion, especially given the lack of an anticorrosive.

 

[Bluesun311]

It's hard to say. Giant chemical reactions can occur from adding a tiny amount of a substance to a given mixture. I find it peculiar that so many people claim to have zero issues with premixed colored coolants but so many people talk about dyes turning into "goop".

 

[magoo]

I love the arguments against dyes in a loop... flat out hilarious.

Adding a few drops of liquid dye into 1.5+ liters of coolant will somehow result in enough solid mass formation to clog a loop. Please, that's violating the laws of physics lol. Mayhems products have been proven to be nearly bulletproof at this point, with the main exception being the Aurora line, which was developed as a show coolant for temporary (read: a few days) use in simple loops. Even that has been vastly improved with the new Aurora 2 series. Pastel and X1 are excellent coolant choices for their stability and antimicrobial/anticorrosive properties. I (along with hundreds of others) have used Pastel in multiple loops without a single issue. There's no way I'd contaminate a loop with plain distilled and a kill coil. Even if it's a tiny amount of silver, it's still far enough away from copper and nickel in the galvanic index that it can cause corrosion, especially given the lack of an anticorrosive.

Although I have no experience with the solutions you speak of, I'd venture there are more folks using silver ion and distilled water than there are using pre-mixed solutions. I have seen the pre-mixes advertised, but have never used them aside from Hydrx.

You hear essentially no problems from people that use silver.

I have been using silver exclusively for 10 years or more and I've not had a single issue.

Granted I upgrade my GPUs and blocks about every 18 months......but before I sell them they are completely broken down and inspected......not a single case of corrosion.

 

[geok1ng]

about someone that claimed that EK plated water block did not leak: mine had a corroded screw and leaked tons of water over the mobo, killing both the 4870x2 and the mobo.

about colored dye: of course dozes of pictures of gunk inside dyed loops must be fake and in no f way using colored tubing would be safer.

i would add that there are numerous reports of respected technical sites of the effectiveness of adding 3 drops of copper sulfate to plain distilled/tap water as a biocide solution.

unless you are adding sensors for leaks, i doubt you could detect a leak before damage is done to your system, so why choose the riskier alternatives when safer, proved and tested solutions are out there?

about gunk: if you dismounted and check your system on a regular basis, you can detect gunk before it damages the pump, but who does that??

colored tubing
distilled ( or tap) water
3 drops of copper sulphate
copper blocks
brass fittings

nothing fancy, nothing expensive, but it will keep your up and running without hiccups for years.

 

[Erasmus354]

about someone that claimed that EK plated water block did not leak: mine had a corroded screw and leaked tons of water over the mobo, killing both the 4870x2 and the mobo.

about colored dye: of course dozes of pictures of gunk inside dyed loops must be fake and in no f way using colored tubing would be safer.

i would add that there are numerous reports of respected technical sites of the effectiveness of adding 3 drops of copper sulfate to plain distilled/tap water as a biocide solution.

unless you are adding sensors for leaks, i doubt you could detect a leak before damage is done to your system, so why choose the riskier alternatives when safer, proved and tested solutions are out there?

about gunk: if you dismounted and check your system on a regular basis, you can detect gunk before it damages the pump, but who does that??

colored tubing
distilled ( or tap) water
3 drops of copper sulphate
copper blocks
brass fittings

nothing fancy, nothing expensive, but it will keep your up and running without hiccups for years.

I agree with this for a loop. However I am curious about your EK waterblock, which waterblock was it?

1) The screw doesn't keep the water out, the O-rings do.

2) The screw shouldn't be corroding because it isn't in contact with any water. Just about any waterblock I have ever seen has the screws outside of the O-ring. Even if the screw does corrode, it likely won't loosen to the point where the O-ring loses its seal.

I think it is much more likely you had a bad O-ring and are attributing it to something else.

 

[Bluesun311]

I'm going to live really dangerously and run some UV blue EKoolant in this loop I'm waiting on. First were going to use distilled for a few days and then I plan to drain the loop, run some hot distilled through it to clean it up, and then I'll run the EKoolant for as long as I can and see how it goes.

 

[tikiman2012]

I use your basic automotive antifreeze mix of 50/50 distilled water and antifreeze. Haven't had a problem. It also has the added benefit of lubricating the pump. Could probably use less antifreeze but I like the color, nice & green.

 

[Tsumi]

I doubt the antifreeze does anything to lubricate the pump. If it did, it's not necessary. My MCP655 is getting near 10 years old now with no issues.

 

[failwheeldrive]

The vast majority of "gunk" in loops is caused by plasticizer leaching into the coolant, not dyes. Plasticizer buildup in a loop full of deionized water will range from clear to off white; plasticizer buildup in a loop with dyed coolant will get dyed the color of the coolant, becoming significantly more visible to the naked eye. Users tend to see colored gunk in their loop and then blame it on the dye because it's the same color as their coolant. I can't speak for the efficacy of older dye products like primochill dye bombs, but I can guarantee you won't see any gunk issues caused by using a dye from Mayhems. Mayhems Pastel can have issues with plasticizer tubing, as well as turn funky colors if the user fails to properly flush their loop. It's mostly user error caused by using the wrong type of flexible tubing or improper radiator maintenance. Their other products like X1 and XT1 are bulletproof, and will work fine with any tubing on the market.

There are hundreds of people successfully running dyed and premixed coolant from Mayhems and EK on OCN. The arguments against them today are mostly hearsay and misinformation. I feel much safer running a thoroughly tested nanofluid from Mayhems than filling a loop with deionized and a kill coil and letting my parts rot over time. The vast majority of loops have mixed metals in electrical contact. Even if you're only running copper blocks, your radiators probably contain tin solder. Check out martinsliquidlab for results on what happens to a radiator running plain deionized water over time. Martin lost an SR1 in a matter of months by leaving plain distilled in it. And before you assume that Martin is some Mayhems fanboy, he always runs distilled in his loops. He also understands the risk involved and appreciates the value of anticorrosives in a loop. Even if you can't see the corrosion, it'll be there.

 

[W.Feather]

One of the issues is dye on the blocks, and discoloration, its not a performance thing, its a cosmetic thing mainly though

 

[failwheeldrive]

Most dyes won't stain blocks. Only certain colors ( dyes containing red and UV red mainly) will stain blocks. This is only a problem if you plan on switching coolant colors in the future, and most of the time your blocks can be cleaned with a simple disassembly.

 

[tikiman2012]

I doubt the antifreeze does anything to lubricate the pump. If it did, it's not necessary. My MCP655 is getting near 10 years old now with no issues.

Antifreeze is most certainly a lubricating fluid, it is an intentional part of its properties. It works great with my H220 loop.

 

[geok1ng]

I agree with this for a loop. However I am curious about your EK waterblock, which waterblock was it?

1) The screw doesn't keep the water out, the O-rings do.
.

one of those black screws around the acrylic leaked, i can search my mountain of pc junk and post pictures for your forensic analysis; but, AFAIK nothing went wrong with my fittings/o-ring.

 

[Jorona]

snip...
one of those black screws around the acrylic leaked, i can search my mountain of pc junk and post pictures for your forensic analysis; but, AFAIK nothing went wrong with my fittings/o-ring.

None of those screws are in contact with water.

 

[Bluesun311]

Would have had to have been something else first before the coolant could even get to the screws. They don't even nickel plate or use copper/brass for the screws because they don't ever come into contact with the coolant.

 

[Erasmus354]

Yep as people have stated, the O-ring keeps the water inside, and it never reaches the screws. This is logical really, because screws aren't watertight. The only way for you to have water leaking around the screw is for the water to first leak past the O-ring, and therefore the O-ring is/was your point of failure. You can clearly see the O-ring in the picture is between the screws and the water.