“How About We Just Decide How Not to Repel Women?”

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GuyClinch said:
Deveoping computer games is hardwork and they only have limited budget. So the more time spent on developing 'inclusiveness' the less time that can be spent on making the game rock.

The pay off for the inclusion of more romance/lead character options doesn't seem to match the downsides - especially in this competitive market. Some of the people that would play DAII are just going to play Witcher 2 instead. Witcher 2 doesn't seem to have 'any' inclusiveness -- but many people liked it better then DA II despite its pathetic budget in comparison.

I think of gaming more like skiing. The ski resorts looked at the massive expensive involved with skiing and for the most part have long ago 'given up' on getting everyone to ski. They instead concentrate on making sure the people that already ski - have a good time. That's sound business strategy.

Likewise the game designers need to worry about making excellent games not creating a giant FBI like crime chart of romance options. Even the white heterosexual players don't often care about that..
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The big publisher's budget aren't for game development. It's for advertising on TV, the press, website, more advertising at trade shows, etc. It's for the huge megatron screens to demo the game. I would be surprised if DAII's actual development budget was more than 2x the size of The Witcher 2. DAII didn't keep up the game play from the first game is why people were critical of it.

Also I would argue that there are no downsides to including branching story lines to a game to attract more demographics into your game. Did the movie industry start losing money when minorities started appearing and having prominent roles in film? Don't think so. What about women? Did they scare away the audience? No. Is the movie industry that much different from the games industry? Not in my opinion. Plus there are lots of indie movies that cater to tough subjects. Eventually the larger movie studios catch on and follow suit. As long as the studio plans for it from the beginning then they should be fine budget wise.

As far as skiing goes the expense of getting into the sport keeps most social groups away. I bet they could reduce the cost of the skis, but the areas where ski communities are located are expensive also. So most social groups are going to be excluded unless there are wholesale changes to their business models.

Thx for your opinion also. Hope our differing views inspire someone to do something in the future.
 
I'm sure this isn't something that hasn't been said before, but I don't think that it's an issue of having or not having a female lead.

Most people in these polls don't really care either way.

Someone mentioned Tomb Raider and how it was very successful. Guys played it and didn't care that the protagonist was a female.

The lead isn't the problem. The problem is that games like that don't really appear to a majority of females.

I think they have these surveys where they ask random girls, "would you be more likely to play this game if it featured an non-big boobed smart female lead?" and they say, "yes". Of course, that doesn't mean that they're going to want to play the game, just that they're slightly more likely to play.

It's like football... would a girl be more likely to watch if the players were all females? Maybe, but it's still something whose subject matter is more appealing to guys; like making a game about shopping or gossip that featured a badass army dude that's a smooth pimp who gets all the pussy isn't going to make guys want to play the game.

Hollywood found the right formula... Action movies are marketed towards men, romantic comedies are marketed toward women, and black people get movies like Soul Plane. You couldn't get an all white cast and put them in Soul Plane and make it be popular with white people.

Accept that you can't please everyone and if you try you're just going to alienate everyone.
 
Mayson said:
I'm sure this isn't something that hasn't been said before, but I don't think that it's an issue of having or not having a female lead.

Most people in these polls don't really care either way.

Someone mentioned Tomb Raider and how it was very successful. Guys played it and didn't care that the protagonist was a female.

The lead isn't the problem. The problem is that games like that don't really appear to a majority of females.

I think they have these surveys where they ask random girls, "would you be more likely to play this game if it featured an non-big boobed smart female lead?" and they say, "yes". Of course, that doesn't mean that they're going to want to play the game, just that they're slightly more likely to play.

It's like football... would a girl be more likely to watch if the players were all females? Maybe, but it's still something whose subject matter is more appealing to guys; like making a game about shopping or gossip that featured a badass army dude that's a smooth pimp who gets all the pussy isn't going to make guys want to play the game.

Hollywood found the right formula... Action movies are marketed towards men, romantic comedies are marketed toward women, and black people get movies like Soul Plane. You couldn't get an all white cast and put them in Soul Plane and make it be popular with white people.

Accept that you can't please everyone and if you try you're just going to alienate everyone.
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Well said.
 
LeninGHOLA said:
We had a female guild leader in one of the top raid guilds in EQ for quite a while. No trouble was caused. Some of our very best players were (actual) women, too. It wasn't 50/50, but that's due to demographics. You can't raid at a bleeding edge level and not have respect for other players and their abilities.
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I've had female guild leaders and officers, and concur what you've just said. But when we'd do some boss before everyone else on the server, they would catch all types of flack from the player base. It's like these few jerks would come out of the woodwork to troll as hard as they could. It got to the point where they would log into our ventrilo and say nasty things in the middle of the night. I remember having to stand up against a group of jerks in Aion on the forums and that started such a big fight where I ended up getting censored. My guild was progressive enough that we had the ear of the developers, so things like account locks were done to stop the trolls. But it was just terrible what some people would say and do.

Our top dps was a Chinese female, our top tank was a Korean female. I could argue that our top pvp healer was a Thai female also. All the macho stuff went out the window the first week within the guild because we were winning and everyone respected them. Sometimes I'd fall asleep during the runs they made it so easy. Guess it didn't help that my guild was entirely foreigners with 5 Americans maybe. Still shouldn't have happened.
 
I have plenty of female friends that are also avid gamers, more so than I am these days. She's gearing up to play the latest God of War, even has a damn T-shirt celebrating the third game on PS3. To be quite honest, I haven't picked up a game since Diablo 3, and I'm debating whether or not to get into the new bioshock, but I digress. People just want good games, I don't care what race/gender my protagonist is, it just doesn't make a bit of difference. Pretty sure CJ from San Andreas wasn't white, also pretty sure about gay tony. I haven't played the latest Tomb Raider, but I loved the originals when I was a kid, so I played through the anniversary, Legend, and Underworld. When I'm immersed in the game play, what my character looks like almost completely disappears. I'm focusing on the objective, not the character. The whole thing seems absurd to me, and if people are racist and won't buy your game, fuck them, they're in the minority and have been for a long time. This isn't the 19th century, it's the goddamn 21st. As for objectification/sexuality of characters, it's time to get over that hang-up as well. Women find handsome men attractive, nice arms, back, chest, ass, ect. turn them on, just like men. We're all sexual beings, we live in a world filled up with 7 billion god-damn people, that's a whole lot of fucking. Men are probably the more guilty party and are too vocal/obvious about it, but women like sex too, grow up and get over your puritanical hang-ups.
 
lilbabycat said:
The thing is, guys like me, either don't believe or outright laugh at this story. Sound black? You're getting the N-bomb thrown at you. Geeky? Nerd-Basement dweller shit-talk. That's the difference between men and women. Men can handle competition / insult, and women (in the majority) cannot.
he-man-woman-haters-club-little-rascals.jpg
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You got that right I think somewhat about men and women handling insults different. In the nearly 15 yrs of online gaming It has been a circus at times. LOL at the "sound black" comment. I have been a minority in the so called "black community" for my whole life and I know no other way to sound than the way I do. I don't speak like I'm illiterate. I have a really deep voice and hell maybe I scare some of these white folk online? LOL.

I have went to school with and worked with white folk. I do not know how to sound "nasal" when I speak. I always know it's coming when I decide to get on the mic and communicate in a game.. You here someone say "hey, are you black?" or you get dude I never knew you were black!".

I like to say yeah we black folk have pc's and electric and internet just like you do or some funny comment to lighten the mood. P

For the idiots that like to take it to another level with the N words. Well I just continue to kick their rear end in game.. No better feeling than that.
 
Meh, I think the "problems" are exaggerated a bit. Online gaming can be an unfriendly place, it's not specifically a sexist place, it's just unfriendly. It attracts unfriendly people and encourages them to be unfriendly. If you actually want to play with people who aren't unfriendly, you have to play with people you know or develop a group of regulars you play with.

As far as the actual game content being sexist, there's no denying certain games are more targeted at men because men are more likely to be basement dwelling nerds who want to play with toy guns and perfect their speed clicking skills to beat some other basement dwelling nerd. I don't think it's the responsibility of games developers to market to a market that is currently small. If you look at things like mobile gaming, they are clearly designed to be more gender neutral because they are trying to market to a more gender neutral market.

The hardcore PC and console gaming markets aren't gender neutral, they are male dominated, I won't blame them for marketing to the market they have.

I'm not convinced more neutrally marketed action/adventure/RPG PC games would actually attract more female gamers anyway. It does seem to me that the genres that are targeted more to men are targeted more to men because they inherently don't appeal to females to the same extent.

Is it a cultural thing? Maybe. The other day I was in the shop and a little girl ran up and picked a foam sword out of a box and started playing with it and the Mum came along and said "put that back, that's a toy for boys" which I thought was a bit sad. But then on the other hand, I have 3 older sisters and my Dad always tried to encourage them to be interested in cars and work on their own cars and appreciate mechanical things, yet I'm the one (the only boy in the family) who ended up interested in mechanical things (though I will say they all do like cars, none of them know anything mechanically speaking).

As to the earlier comment that feminine things are looked down upon, everything is looked down upon by someone. Be too feminine as a guy and you'll lose the respect of many men, be too masculine and suddenly you're a misogynistic pig. At the end of the day, games are marketed to whoever the publisher thinks will buy it, it's not like there aren't gender neutral games, they just tend to not be the games we [H]ers consider our core gaming experience.
 
Where do I even start.

Derangel said:
“Privilege is when you think that something’s not a problem because it’s not a problem for you personally,” he said. “If you’re part of a group that’s being catered to, you believe that’s the way it should be. ‘It’s always been that way, why would that be a problem for anyone?’
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Having a product made for a certain group doesn't mean they are privileged. In a capitalistic society, having a product made for a certain group means that a business is looking at market and designing a product to reach maximum profit.

How dare Lamborghini make sports cars for millionaires, and not us IT folk. Always catering to the rich, people, those jerks over at Lambo!


Derangel said:
I think Gaider hit something really perfectly in his talk:
“I want you to indulge me for a moment, imagine that since video games were first made, all major characters are black. Every hero. Everyone who does something virtuous, they’re all black. Good white characters? Few and far between. Mostly minor—the white guy on the team. White female characters? Unheard of…If your response to that is, ‘Actually I wouldn’t mind,’ I’m pretty sure if you talked to somebody who is in that position, they could tell you that you would. You don’t have the context to understand what someone’s going to…you have to recognize that, because that’s privilege. Because you have the privilege to not have to understand.”
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The rational person in me would want to know why it's like this. Is there an untapped market for a new product? What's the real interest in this alternate product? What are the development costs to get a prototype and get public feedback from my intended market segment. Is the payoff worth taking the risk.

Bottom line, if the product you have in mind doesn't exist, create it. If many before you have discussed it, and it doesn't yet exist, it's probably for a damn good reason.
 
canna said:
The rational person in me would want to know why it's like this. Is there an untapped market for a new product? What's the real interest in this alternate product? What are the development costs to get a prototype and get public feedback from my intended market segment. Is the payoff worth taking the risk.

Bottom line, if the product you have in mind doesn't exist, create it. If many before you have discussed it, and it doesn't yet exist, it's probably for a damn good reason.
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Specifically with that comment (black people as protagonists) it comes down to who is making the game?

If I was writing a story, it'd probably be about a white guy. Not a black woman, because I'm not a black woman, I'm a white guy (well, I'm half and half, but for arguments sake lets say white). I think the same thing happens in games. If the writers of the games tend to be white males, the protagonists will probably be dominated by white males (assuming there's no "race" and "sex" sliders).

I don't think it's some evil form of racism or some system of excluding people of other races, it's just a fact of life in how people tend to write.

Now, if you told me there was a high proportion of black persons writing video games and yet there was almost no black protagonists in games then I'd start to think "hrm, maybe there's something to this" or if there are barriers preventing black persons from entering the video game market *if that's what they want to do* then that's something separate that I think should be addressed.
 
lilbabycat said:
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Un..fucking..believable that I still have to read this garbage in 2013. I'm literally sitting here with mouth agape at how disappointing most of the shit I'm reading here is.

Also, why are some people here mentioning Tomb Raider's good sales as if it's evidence that sexism (etc) isn't real? The whole point is that its good sales demonstrate that it's OK for a group of developers to think outside the box (even if it's only a little bit outside the box) and it's time for more to follow suit and keep pushing the envelope. It doesn't demonstrate that everything is hunky dory, "move on, nothing to see here." :rolleyes:
 
Colonel Sanders said:
Un..fucking..believable that I still have to read this garbage in 2013. I'm literally sitting here with mouth agape at how disappointing most of the shit I'm reading here is.
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Wait, did you actually have a counter argument, or is your argument simply to be dismissive? :rolleyes:
 
canna said:
The rational person in me would want to know why it's like this. Is there an untapped market for a new product? What's the real interest in this alternate product? What are the development costs to get a prototype and get public feedback from my intended market segment. Is the payoff worth taking the risk.

Bottom line, if the product you have in mind doesn't exist, create it. If many before you have discussed it, and it doesn't yet exist, it's probably for a damn good reason.
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Not only does such a product exist, it was one of the biggest hits of its decade, and got tons of mainstream media attention:

GTA_San_Andreas_Box_Art.jpg
 
Well some people are flabbergasted that others still think the way that Lilbabycat does. And Tudz here in the South you're considered Black. Doesn't matter how much money you have, who you're related to, If you're 1/2 or 1/16th. You're still the guy that steals bicycles, robs innocent people, won't get a job to take care of your kids, sells crack on the street, is milking the welfare system to death, and pretty much worthless in the eyes of most. That's public perception from the majority rule that you and others enacted earlier.

That's why debates like this about equality for women, minorities, poor people in general regardless of race lead to good discussions and laws were enacted. This is because the majority in general doesn't give a damn about anyone else, but the majority, unless it makes them look bad to the rest of the world. If you think I'm being "out in left field" look up the way Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc were treated at the turn of the century. They were 1/4 inch up the social totem pole from the Black slaves. Later on they would get acceptance from the majority, but not until world leaders such as Hitler dropped propaganda on the radio waves asking the minorities fighting in WWII why were they there when their own country enslaved them back home. Those types of embarrassments coupled with the willingness of minority leaders to resist led to the Civil Rights Movement.

And Tudz I am not insinuating that you are any of those things. But that's the way the majority sometimes thinks until someone speaks up like the guy from Bioware did, to change things. I hope this came out in a constructive way to foster debate, and not in a negative way to bring out hate.
 
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The big publisher's budget aren't for game development. It's for advertising on TV, the press, website, more advertising at trade shows, etc. It's for the huge megatron screens to demo the game. I would be surprised if DAII's actual development budget was more than 2x the size of The Witcher 2. DAII didn't keep up the game play from the first game is why people were critical of it.
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*citation needed.

I think you are wrong on this. Game making nowadays is like movie making. Sure they spend alot more on marketing the Batman movie. But they also spend a ton more money then they did on the the Hurt Locker.

Also I would argue that there are no downsides to including branching story lines to a game to attract more demographics into your game. Did the movie industry start losing money when minorities started appearing and having prominent roles in film? Don't think so. What about women? Did they scare away the audience? No. Is the movie industry that much different from the games industry? Not in my opinion. Plus there are lots of indie movies that cater to tough subjects. Eventually the larger movie studios catch on and follow suit. As long as the studio plans for it from the beginning then they should be fine budget wise.
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It's just opportunity cost. They could say reshoot bat-man with a woman as a lead - ya know batwoman. And maybe that would in fact broaden the audience some. They could then reshoot it with a black man in the lead. And so on and so forth. But no movie making company would actually do that because it's a waste of money. If your core audience is white men - then a white male lead is smart. I

If you shot batman 3x and split your movie making budget 3 ways it would be much crappier. This is part of what happend to DAII. Too much money spent on the romance options and not enough on making the game awesome.
 
cageymaru said:
You're the face of racism that hurled insults on the Bioware when they added in same sex romances. You're the anonymous troll that stalked my niece when she would play games and breath at her, call her names, tell her that only men can play. My niece is 32 and in management for a company; she's not 12. Doesn't mean that she wants to pay $50 a year to get called bitch, I'm coming to rape you after the match like Steubenville, Ohio, etc. You're exactly the person this article was written about.

You're whom video games are developed for. What this guy is talking about is changing that atmosphere and making it so that others have fun also. So they can sell more software, reach more demographics. etc. I think it's a great idea and I want to foster this type of debate. Glad to see you stand up and take credit for your actions. Elaborate more please. :)
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So, she's a woman and management at her job, therefore she deserves special treatment. Got it.

Next, player characters in SP games should look, act, and generally play different depending on the real-world profile of the person playing it.
 
cageymaru said:
And Tudz I am not insinuating that you are any of those things. But that's the way the majority sometimes thinks until someone speaks up like the guy from Bioware did, to change things. I hope this came out in a constructive way to foster debate, and not in a negative way to bring out hate.
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I think it's unnecessary BS. If it is a good game, no normal person cares if the main character is male, female, black, white...And I believe the vast majority of gamers are normal, at least PC gamers. Console playing loud mouth kid retards...who cares. I don't think anyone in Europe even registers this, it seems like too many Americans are overly sensitive to anything that even resembles race/sex issues that they see problems where there aren't any.
 
Colonel Sanders said:
Un..fucking..believable that I still have to read this garbage in 2013. I'm literally sitting here with mouth agape at how disappointing most of the shit I'm reading here is.

Also, why are some people here mentioning Tomb Raider's good sales as if it's evidence that sexism (etc) isn't real? The whole point is that its good sales demonstrate that it's OK for a group of developers to think outside the box (even if it's only a little bit outside the box) and it's time for more to follow suit and keep pushing the envelope. It doesn't demonstrate that everything is hunky dory, "move on, nothing to see here." :rolleyes:
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I'm sorry it's unbelievable that people are allowed to have free speech and think their minds on the internet in 2013, thankfully laws are being passed to make that illegal too. :rolleyes:

And what exactly is "thinking outside the box" with Tomb Raider (which is the Nth in a series with the same premise as previous games)?

GuyClinch:
They could then reshoot it with a black man in the lead. And so on and so forth. But no movie making company would actually do that because it's a waste of money. I
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Has been done before, though I'm not sure why...That Lannister Imp...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0795368/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1321509/

And San Andreas is the best GTA.

Cagey:
That's public perception from the majority rule that you and others enacted earlier
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This is sidebarring quite a bit but...statistically (that would be actual facts, figures that exist and are reality) african americans commit more crimes than any other minority in relation to their population. That isn't up for debate. I know you want to deny that, but that is the truth. (The real debate is WHY those numbers are like that).\
If you think I'm being "out in left field" look up the way Irish, Italians, Chinese, etc were treated at the turn of the century. They were 1/4 inch up the social totem pole from the Black slaves
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And look at the way they are treated today. Going back to the ()'d question above.

p.s. Virtually every race, creed, and color, whatever has been enslaved at some point in time in history. To include the "white anglo-saxon male".
 
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Tudz said:
Specifically with that comment (black people as protagonists) it comes down to who is making the game?

If I was writing a story, it'd probably be about a white guy. Not a black woman, because I'm not a black woman, I'm a white guy (well, I'm half and half, but for arguments sake lets say white). I think the same thing happens in games. If the writers of the games tend to be white males, the protagonists will probably be dominated by white males (assuming there's no "race" and "sex" sliders).

I don't think it's some evil form of racism or some system of excluding people of other races, it's just a fact of life in how people tend to write.

Now, if you told me there was a high proportion of black persons writing video games and yet there was almost no black protagonists in games then I'd start to think "hrm, maybe there's something to this" or if there are barriers preventing black persons from entering the video game market *if that's what they want to do* then that's something separate that I think should be addressed.
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I think this is a valid point.
 
cageymaru said:
Well some people are flabbergasted that others still think the way that Lilbabycat does. And Tudz here in the South you're considered Black. Doesn't matter how much money you have, who you're related to, If you're 1/2 or 1/16th. You're still the guy that steals bicycles, robs innocent people, won't get a job to take care of your kids, sells crack on the street, is milking the welfare system to death, and pretty much worthless in the eyes of most. That's public perception from the majority rule that you and others enacted earlier.
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Yes but my point was mostly that I don't think a low proportion of black protagonists is inherently an industry problem, as you allude to it may be a CULTURAL problem that black persons are made to feel early on that they shouldn't go in to a certain field or are raised in such an environment to not have a great of a desire to go in to that field. I could be wrong as I didn't grow up in the US, but I think in this day and age if a number of black women wanted to go in to video games development there would be little in the education side or the industry side to stop them. My general observation in higher education has been that minorities are encouraged more than anything and if the capability is there anyone can do damned near anything these days, in fact if you come from a minority and lack the capability you're more likely to get exceptions made for you to encourage the minority.

Hell, take the race and sex thing out of the equation, when I went through university I sure as hell noticed a lack of people from poor areas or rural areas. Most everyone was a city dwelling private school kid from schools that a single semester cost more than my entire education did. It did make me kind of annoyed, but at the same time it wasn't the university's fault that was the case, they even had programs targeted at people in rural and poorer areas.

Now, when it comes to the issue of gender equality, I do feel it's a slightly different kettle of fish than race because I DO feel that men and women are inherently different. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's purely cultural, but I do feel that there's something different in the brain of a man that attracts them to guns and shooting and killing and weapons and the roar of overpowered engines and even the competitive desire to dominate others even if it's just by pressing buttons to watch their virtual brains explode on a screen. Can women enjoy those same things? Yeah, of course, but I do feel men have a natural propensity to be more inclined down that path and hence why those sorts of games are marketed in such a way as to draw in men. Games which aren't like that do tend to be more neutrally marketed to either gender.

In this day and age I do think there's little reason why someone, anyone, can't pursue the field they are interested in and when there's a lack of X people in a field I do think there's a too much of a tendency to jump on the "sexism!" "misogyny!" "racism!" bandwagons without looking at the underlying reasons of "well, why aren't X people in this field? Are they being neglected or do they simply have no interest? If they have no interest, why do they have no interest?"
GuyClinch said:
*citation needed.

I think you are wrong on this. Game making nowadays is like movie making. Sure they spend alot more on marketing the Batman movie. But they also spend a ton more money then they did on the the Hurt Locker.
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Games definitely cost a lot to make, but a lot of the "big budget" games the budget does go heavily to advertising rather than development.

http://www.industrygamers.com/news/call-of-duty-modern-warfare-2s-launch-budget--200-million/

http://bf3blog.com/2011/07/battlefield-3-marketing-budget-to-top-50-million/

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_costs#Video_game_costs_and_budgets

Someone earlier mentioned TW2 compared to another game, a thing to keep in mind there is that TW2 is going to have a much lower development cost because it was made in Poland by Polish people and wages are far less. The actual time put in to development may not actually be that much lower on TW2 than any other AAA game made in the USA.
 
es but my point was mostly that I don't think a low proportion of black protagonists is inherently an industry problem, as you allude to it may be a CULTURAL problem that black persons are made to feel early on that they shouldn't go in to a certain field or are raised in such an environment to not have a great of a desire to go in to that field
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Also, the proportion if anything, should be more or less 1:1 with their total population. If White make up 80% of the total population, Black 15% and All others 5%, then one would expect protags in all kinds of media to be similar. I have personally seen quite the opposite, an elementary school in my area that I've been to has 6 "got milk" and "eat healthy" posters up in their cafeteria, and there was one white person represented out of the ~10 people on the posters. Should I be proclaiming that whites are being under-represented to our youth?
 
I read some of the posts and literally laughed out loud.

Macho stuff going out the window? Gaming is macho? It really shows that gaming and those who take it seriously is a little bubble. People inside are trolling women, black people, etc while those outside are just laughing at all the nerds who give a fuck in the first place.

Raiding? LOL - People outside of gaming think it's for losers and people inside think a woman can't push buttons in a certain order. It's hilarious. Gaming should be the first medium to welcome women because there is no physical requirement.
 
big_aug said:
I read some of the posts and literally laughed out loud.

Macho stuff going out the window? Gaming is macho? It really shows that gaming and those who take it seriously is a little bubble. People inside are trolling women, black people, etc while those outside are just laughing at all the nerds who give a fuck in the first place.

Raiding? LOL - People outside of gaming think it's for losers and people inside think a woman can't push buttons in a certain order. It's hilarious. Gaming should be the first medium to welcome women because there is no physical requirement.
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Very true. Unfortunately, here we have many beta males that just don't understand the extent that society plays with the way men and women view each other and themselves. Growing up men are used to being competitive and being rude to each other so it's no surprise it's rampant in the videogame industry. Yet women are taught to be docile, that it isn't "lady-like" to be competitive and even enjoying sex is looked down upon.

It's really sad how many men will defend the status quo just because they of course don't see an issue with the way things are and haven't truly tried to understand it from a woman's point of view.
 
Azureth said:
even enjoying sex is looked down upon.
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No, not it isn't, and hasn't been for a long time. Where are you getting this? That girls that sleep around are called sluts? Men have a term for it too, it's called "man-whore"...
 
@Tudz Grand Theft Auto San Andreas is a perfect example of a cops and robbers testosterone filled game that women and minorities loved to play. The game's director was Navid Khonsari, an Iranian, thus the main character was a minority. In a PBS documentary that for the life of me I can't find, he went to Iran and shot film of female and male reactions to his game. Those kids and adults treated him like a "Rockstar" literally because he brought their world to life in a way that nobody else in the gaming industry cared to. The female gamers in Iran were gushing about how they could make CJ eat, drink, sleep, etc. The game went on to become the #1 greatest selling game for the PS2.

Female gamers loved it. My 56 year old sister played the game. Her daughter played it. My 32 year old niece bought it on PS2, PC, and Mac multiple times. My great nieces love it to this very day. Some of them are 5 y.o. and can relate to the character. I think everyone now owns the game on Steam in my family that enjoys games. And that's before we even discuss what the males in my community and family thought of the game. I was just playing it not even 2 days ago with my current guild.

So, like I said. Why is it that some studios get it and some studios don't? I could get into why I see some minorities not in certain places of influence, even though there is plenty of opportunity provided to them by the actions of their grandfathers and others further down their family tree. But if you have games that sell that many copies and blur the lines of race, then why aren't more studios trying to harness that momentum. Or is it that they think that the GTA series was a fluke repeated over and over with mass sales?

Maybe I'm not as smart as those decision makers, but it seems to me that when a game bridges cultural differences and sells 20 million copies just on one platform alone, I'd want my guys trying to be inclusive to that demographic also.
 
big_aug said:
I read some of the posts and literally laughed out loud.

Macho stuff going out the window? Gaming is macho? It really shows that gaming and those who take it seriously is a little bubble. People inside are trolling women, black people, etc while those outside are just laughing at all the nerds who give a fuck in the first place.

Raiding? LOL - People outside of gaming think it's for losers and people inside think a woman can't push buttons in a certain order. It's hilarious. Gaming should be the first medium to welcome women because there is no physical requirement.
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Thank you very much Big_Aug. :)
 
Why can't I just play a fucking game and not care about who I'm playing as. Look at Saints Row 3 or Dante's Inferno just as 2 examples.

Saints Row 3: Right in your face with sex and the ability to be male or female with very stereotypical features enhanced with a "sex appeal" bar. Great fucking game and I wouldn't change a thing about it.

Dante's Inferno: Pretty graphic with sex and violence to the point where one boss has little demon babies coming from her nipples... Wtf. Good game, could have been longer but whatever.

The most annoying part is that all the things that people bitch about game content are people that don't even play them. It's always some activist group yelling that I shouldn't be play a game with this content.
 
lilbabycat said:
No, not it isn't, and hasn't been for a long time. Where are you getting this? That girls that sleep around are called sluts? Men have a term for it too, it's called "man-whore"...
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Never read "The Scarlet Letter"? Now link me a man version where a guy is forced to be publicly humiliated for 3 hours because he is accused of adultery.
 
This is one of the most pathetic threads I've read through since joining [H] many moons ago...

Is there sexism in video games, YES.

Is there sexism in movies, YES.

Is there sexism in books, YES.

Is there sexism in comic-books, YES.

Is there sexism in reality, YES.

Will you ever rid humanity of sexism, NO.

I'm so tired of all of these all-inclusive debates, it's just people turning in endless circles about how to make everyone happy, which you will NEVER do.

Make games that target guys, and make games that target the ladies, 'nuff said. You can even take it farther and make games that target gays of either gender. Just don't expect to make a game that targets guys, girls and gays without making somebody not want to buy it.

Do I want to play a game that promotes the virtues of feminism, NO.

Do I want to play a game that promotes homosexuals, NO.

Do I want to play a game that extolls the virtues of kick-assery machoism, YES. But then again, I'm a guy and making females any less buxom or less attractive is not going to get me to buy your game.
 
cageymaru said:
Never read "The Scarlet Letter"? Now link me a man version where a guy is forced to be publicly humiliated for 3 hours because he is accused of adultery.
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I would like to point out the fact lil said "and hasn't been for a long time".

"The Scarlet Letter... Set in 17th-century Puritan Boston, Massachusetts during the years 1642 to 1649"

That's my definition of a long time.
 
You know what? I don't give a shit about women who don't want to play video games. I know many that do, and they never bitch about gender shit. They just want to play the same games guys do, because...get this...they like video games. They play them for fun and enjoyment. They don't sit around and overanalyze the attitudes or roles played by pixelated fictional characters whom they don't take seriously one bit.

Please, games industry...shut the fuck up about politics and focus on gameplay, control, and graphics. Stop giving attention to a bunch of hypersensitive douchebags who really don't give a shit about video games. Nobody cares whether the protagonist is white, black, male, female, gay, straight, macho, feminist, or anything else. They should all be like Gordon Freeman: skilled, effective, and fucking silent.
 
cageymaru said:
Never read "The Scarlet Letter"? Now link me a man version where a guy is forced to be publicly humiliated for 3 hours because he is accused of adultery.
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Disclosure, by Michael Crichton.

I love how every member of some fucking group likes to think they're the only "victim". Every gender, every race, every religion, every GROUP has, at some time, suffered. Stop thinking you're special because you've had your share, and stop demeaning/ignoring/diminishing the suffering of others just to make yourself Victim Rank 10.
 
Rusty4560 said:
Agreed!

I miss GTA with a silent protagonist.
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What, you no like Nico talking to COUSIN about bowling and giving his analysis of modern American society? He so smart! You listen to him, you learn something.
 
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