“How About We Just Decide How Not to Repel Women?”

[Plague_Injected]

You're right. It's only an issue to hypersensitive narcissists who demand that every form of media representation bend to accommodate their need for validation in a time where their actual marches for worthwhile causes have long past become unnecessary. Now they seek to impose their demands for equity and parity across all possible categorizations on a goddamn industry that started with two sticks bouncing a dot back and forth.

How do you enjoy White Straight Male Easy Mode? It gives you such insightful perspective, doesn't it?

Why should the majority yield to the minority.

Still waiting for you to contribute something that even approaches being constructive to a thread rather than some stupid one-line troll comment. I feel that I'm going to be waiting a very long time.

 

[Plague_Injected]

Really? There are people in this thread mad we're even talking about it, calling anyone who cares narcissistic somethings or other.

Stop talking about nice things like inclusion you narcissist!

 

[TwistedAegis]

Ok Obama. This "conversation" with all it's "good dialogue" has amounted to no one's opinions changed. I've spoke my mind only to be called a racist piece of shit then told that my free will should not exist, that I'm a horrible person for thinking the things I do.... And that if you can't be right, just throw out a falsehood that a person can waste 5-15minutes proving wrong, only to come back with some white flag waving "lets all be friends". How about no.

Stop talking about nice things like inclusion you narcissist!

You're right. I need to be more helpful like the above poster. Hint: No one in this thread has even come close to saying that about you. And randomly throwing out stupid political statements doesn't lend you to being taken any more seriously, either.

 

[Stiletto]

How do you enjoy White Straight Male Easy Mode? It gives you such insightful perspective, doesn't it?

Yeah, it's real easy being a straight white male, especially with the bags of gold and mithril armor given to my parents when I was born. Nice racist and sexist attitude, by the way.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

The mithril was a nice touch. Thanks Obama!

 

[Stiletto]

Still waiting for you to contribute something that even approaches being constructive to a thread rather than some stupid one-line troll comment. I feel that I'm going to be waiting a very long time.

I was just thinking the same about you.

 

[Plague_Injected]

I was just thinking the same about you.

Yeah, it's real easy being a straight white male, especially with the bags of gold and mithril armor given to my parents when I was born. Nice racist and sexist attitude, by the way.

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate your complete lack of ability to sustain an intellectual argument. I now know you're not worth communicating with, so thank you for showing me that.

 

[Stiletto]

Stop talking about nice things like inclusion you narcissist!

Hey guys! Let me play basketball with you! You aren't including me! What do you mean I can ask to play any time I want? But I don't like the way you play! I want to play my music! I want to wear a snowsuit and boots when I play! I want you to wear them, too! I WANT THE BALL! GIVE ME THE BALL, YOU BIGOTS!

*walks away*

Those people are so insensitive.

 

[Plague_Injected]

Hey guys! Let me play basketball with you! You aren't including me! What do you mean I can ask to play any time I want? But I don't like the way you play! I want to play my music! I want to wear a snowsuit and boots when I play! I want you to wear them, too! I WANT THE BALL! GIVE ME THE BALL, YOU BIGOTS!

*walks away*

Those people are so insensitive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

 

[Stiletto]

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate your complete lack of ability to sustain an intellectual argument. I now know you're not worth communicating with, so thank you for showing me that.

So stereotyping someone because of their race, gender, and sexuality is an "intellectual argument"? As usual, people like you break the very politically correct rules with which you attempt to bludgeon others.

 

[Plague_Injected]

So stereotyping someone because of their race, gender, and sexuality is an "intellectual argument"? As usual, people like you break the very politically correct rules with which you attempt to bludgeon others.

Are you seriously offended by being called a straight white male? How fucking precious are you?

You don't or won't understand the issue. You have no idea what we are talking about. Please bow out before you make yourself look any more uneducated than you already have.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate your complete lack of ability to sustain an intellectual argument. I now know you're not worth communicating with, so thank you for showing me that.

Straight white males don't always have an easy mode. It's an unfair stereotype. I don't know why we can't judge these things case by case, instead of smearing one group over another due to apparent bias. That's the same basic thinking that you're saying you don't condone.

 

[Plague_Injected]

Straight white males don't always have an easy mode. It's an unfair stereotype. I don't know why we can't judge these things case by case, instead of smearing one group over another due to apparent bias. That's the same basic thinking that you're saying you don't condone.

When it comes to gaming, which is the scope of this discussion, it is easy mode.

 

[Stiletto]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Hyperbole, applied to the argument people like you are making. You claim that people want to game, but are turned off by the fact that the protagonists are not diverse enough to satisfy their desire for validation on the basis of their belonging to a demographic. You want stories, characters, and motivations changed in order to meet your desired blend of gender identities, ethnicities, sexual preferences, etc.

Let me clue you in on something: none of that will add anything to any game. The only purpose it will serve will be to pander to groups that will just end up bitching about something else as soon as they've gotten what they wanted. The endless cycle of "I'm a member of a group, do something for me, or I'll label you something bad".

 

[Tudz]

When it comes to gaming, which is the scope of this discussion, it is easy mode.

Yeah, we need to make harder games to appeal to women and blacks...

...or something.

 

[Plague_Injected]

Hyperbole, applied to the argument people like you are making. You claim that people want to game, but are turned off by the fact that the protagonists are not diverse enough to satisfy their desire for validation on the basis of their belonging to a demographic. You want stories, characters, and motivations changed in order to meet your desired blend of gender identities, ethnicities, sexual preferences, etc.

Let me clue you in on something: none of that will add anything to any game. The only purpose it will serve will be to pander to groups that will just end up bitching about something else as soon as they've gotten what they wanted. The endless cycle of "I'm a member of a group, do something for me, or I'll label you something bad".

You want the gaming industry to continue its refusal to reflect diversity in western culture and continue excluding any who doesn't fit into the Straight White Male paradigm. You do not accept that gaming is not the domain of white males anymore. Yet you call me the bigot because I asked you how Straight White Male Easy Mode works for you. You are privileged, the industry tailors everything to you.

I suppose you oppose projects like this as well, because it's a website that only includes fiction that has protagonists from minority groups: http://visibilityfiction.com/

You are threatened by something that is completely benign, which reveals a lot about you. You post a lot of conservative bullshit in the Front Page News forum, so I already know a fair bit about where you stand on things. Continue fighting against the big evil changes that make everybody feel included and relevant to society instead of just the privileged catered-for manchildren of western society...it shows what kind of values and morals you consider valid.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

When it comes to gaming, which is the scope of this discussion, it is easy mode.

Maybe so. I wouldn't blame all straight white males for it, though. Like I said before, I think we should buy the games we like, buy the games we support and buy the games that have a message that we agree with. Most people, however, don't want to be burdened with making a political statement every time they click BUY on Steam. The only way to truly change the market is to put your money where your mouth is. I'm all for good games with good stories and strong female characters, and my purchasing history agrees.

 

[Stiletto]

Are you seriously offended by being called a straight white male? How fucking precious are you?

Your hypocrisy is appalling. It's okay to stereotype straight white males as being on "easy" mode...but any generalizations applied to other groups would(rightly) be met with calls of racism, sexism, etc. You have no problem acting in the exact racist and sexist ways you berate others for supposedly harboring. You have your own hatreds, and you project onto others to hide them.

 

[Plague_Injected]

Your hypocrisy is appalling. It's okay to stereotype straight white males as being on "easy" mode...but any generalizations applied to other groups would(rightly) be met with calls of racism, sexism, etc. You have no problem acting in the exact racist and sexist ways you berate others for supposedly harboring. You have your own hatreds, and you project onto others to hide them.

...You didn't pass comprehension exercises in "elementary" school, did you?

The only person who is preaching racist and sexist values in here (through advocating for the continued discrimination and alienation of minority groups in videogames) is you, fella.

 

[Stiletto]

You want the gaming industry to continue its refusal to reflect diversity in western culture and continue excluding any who doesn't fit into the Straight White Male paradigm.

Prove it. I haven't once said anything of the kind. I want the gaming industry to focus on gameplay, putting out games that aren't crippled at release, and preferably not ruining games with onerous online-connectivity requirements. Sorry if I see that as more valuable than some nitwit feeling validated by a palette change or hair swap on their non-speaking avatar(which they'll barely see if it's not a third-person perspective). Apparently, you don't. Hence, I think your opinion is useless. And it is. It's taken you post after post just to provide something with substance, and you still had to follow it up with a pile of abuse.

 

[Stiletto]

...You didn't pass comprehension exercises in "elementary" school, did you?

The only person who is preaching racist and sexist values in here (through advocating for the continued discrimination and alienation of minority groups in videogames) is you, fella.

So now video games are outright discriminating against minority groups?

No no...you're the one that's precious.

 

[LeninGHOLA]

...You didn't pass comprehension exercises in "elementary" school, did you?

The only person who is preaching racist and sexist values in here through advocating for the continued discrimination and alienation of minority groups in videogames is you, fella.

I must be reading something else. I don't see him being racist or sexist.

 

[Stiletto]

YYou are privileged, the industry tailors everything to you.

Fine. I want more representation in hip-hop and cosmetics.

They're dominated by all those "privileged" people.

 

[Plague_Injected]

I must be reading something else. I don't see him being racist or sexist.

He is arguing for the status quo to remain, and that the issue of inclusion is not important. It is certainly racist and sexist, because the gaming industry IS racist and sexist by continuing to focus on white male protagonists and not acknowledging the diversity of the audience.

The only question is how direct or indirect the racism and sexism is. It is not as overt as using racial/sexist slurs, but the element is definitely there and is quite pervasive. If it were not, this issue wouldn't be raised or be discussed.

 

[Tudz]

You want the gaming industry to continue its refusal to reflect diversity in western culture and continue excluding any who doesn't fit into the Straight White Male paradigm.

No, what I want (and I'm guessing most people arguing here) is for game developers to make the games THEY want to make and for the market for which THEY want to make them.

I have no problem with game developers who want to make a game about an islamic black woman if that's what some game developer wants to do and I have no problem with a game developer who wants to make a game where women with over sized breasts prance around in tiny bikinis.

I also have no problem with the standard shit talking that goes on in online video games and I have no problem with people who want to create servers/groups/clubs of people who don't tolerate such things.

If a white male developer wants to make a game about a white male protagonist and market it to white males, that's their prerogative. If a black woman wants to make a game about a black woman protagonist, that's perfectly fine by me. If a white male wants to make a game about a black woman protagonist, fine by me too, though they're probably more likely to step on toes of black women if the black women feel misrepresented.

At the end of the day, what matters to me, and I'm sure most people, IS THAT THEY MAKE GOOD GAMES.

 

[Plague_Injected]

No, what I want (and I'm guessing most people arguing here) is for game developers to make the games THEY want to make and for the market for which THEY want to make them.

I have no problem with game developers who want to make a game about an islamic black woman if that's what some game developer wants to do and I have no problem with a game developer who wants to make a game where women with over sized breasts prance around in tiny bikinis.

I also have no problem with the standard shit talking that goes on in online video games and I have no problem with people who want to create servers/groups/clubs of people who don't tolerate such things.

If a white male developer wants to make a game about a white male protagonist and market it to white males, that's their prerogative. If a black woman wants to make a game about a black woman protagonist, that's perfectly fine by me. If a white male wants to make a game about a black woman protagonist, fine by me too, though they're probably more likely to step on toes of black women if the black women feel misrepresented.

At the end of the day, what matters to me, and I'm sure most people, IS THAT THEY MAKE GOOD GAMES.

That's fine. The point I take issue with is that minorities who do not feel represented in games (as well as other forms of mass-media) should not be told to be silent and be accused of hidden agendas.

If developers are denied their artistic freedoms, I would argue it is done by the gaming industry itself and not by advocacy groups or people like Sarkeesian. This is evident by the story behind the game Remember Me and studios like Epic Games saying that female protagonists are not financially viable. So if developers do choose to go in a certain direction with a protagonist, they can be denied that by the publisher or executives because of an unsubstantiated fear that it won't bring in as much money.

Fine. I want more representation in hip-hop and cosmetics.

They're dominated by all those "privileged" people.

The music and cosmetic industries are run by white men...

 

[Stiletto]

The only question is how direct or indirect the racism and sexism is. It is not as overt as using racial/sexist slurs, but the element is definitely there and is quite pervasive. If it were not, this issue wouldn't be raised or be discussed.

Bull. Shit.

 

[Stiletto]

The music and cosmetic industries are run by white men...

And targeted towards...?

First you're talking about who video games are geared towards(implying racism)...then when it comes to two other industries, you suddenly switch to who runs them...like a red herring, to distract away from the parallel.

But you wouldn't bitch about straw men and then employ red herrings...would you?

 

[LeninGHOLA]

He is arguing for the status quo to remain, and that the issue of inclusion is not important. It is certainly racist and sexist, because the gaming industry IS racist and sexist by continuing to focus on white male protagonists and not acknowledging the diversity of the audience.

The only question is how direct or indirect the racism and sexism is. It is not as overt as using racial/sexist slurs, but the element is definitely there and is quite pervasive. If it were not, this issue wouldn't be raised or be discussed.

I think it more boils down to the fact that we consumers will decide if it works, regardless of idealism. Trust me, we will make it work, more women are drawn to game playing and game development every day. Some people just feel that we don't really need to pander and push the ideology so much as make games that are fun to play. If a good game comes out that helps draw more women into the industry, that's definitely a bonus. You can't force everyone to give up Call of Duty because it doesn't help further your beliefs.

Look at it this way; I didn't buy a game like The Longest Journey because I thought it was about time they made a game about strong and deep female leads, I thought "Hmm, this game looks cool" and it was, it was also well writen and had the bonus of having a really interesting main character.

 

[Plague_Injected]

I think it more boils down to the fact that we consumers will decide if it works, regardless of idealism. Trust me, we will make it work, more women are drawn to game playing and game development every day. Some people just feel that we don't really need to pander and push the ideology so much as make games that are fun to play. If a good game comes out that helps draw more women into the industry, that's definitely a bonus. You can't force everyone to give up Call of Duty because it doesn't help further your beliefs.

Look at it this way; I didn't buy a game like The Longest Journey because I thought it was about time they made a game about strong and deep female leads, I thought "Hmm, this game looks cool" and it was, it was also well writen and had the bonus of having a really interesting main character.

But that's not the argument, though.

The argument is about not excluding women and minority groups. Developers may want to include these groups but are prevented in doing so by publishers. The only publisher that seems to be bucking this trend is - amazingly enough - EA, with games such as Mass Effect 3, The Sims and Dragon Age: Origins.

If what you say and I agree with is true, then I would argue that having a female lead in Call of Duty - a completely simple and non-invasive way of including almost half of the audience - would not negatively impact sales at all.

 

[BravO)))]

Crash and burn.