“How About We Just Decide How Not to Repel Women?”

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cageymaru said:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/0...-burning-alive-woman-for-witchcraft-in-papua/

Not so long ago.
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2 charged for allegedly torturing, burning alive woman for witchcraft in Papua New Guinea

but the brutal killing was met with outrage across the South Pacific island nation, drawing condemnation from the prime minister, police and diplomats.
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Clearly you have zero interest in actually discussing the subject matter, as every time you are rebutted you jump to the next best thing you can google to distract from the subject. Teaching equality in 3rd (or close to) world countries is a big difference from "women in videogames / VG industry".
 
cageymaru said:
We were discussing if women were held to double standards in comparison to their male counterparts.
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Of course they are, just like men are held to double standards.

A choice few taken from: http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/double-standards-the-sine-qua-non-of-misandry/

- We happily remove male role models from our sons’ lives, then when our sons behave badly, we blame patriarchy;

- When girls were behind boys in educational achievement, people said the girls were just fine, the problem was with the schools. Now that boys are behind girls in every facet of educational achievement, people say the schools are just fine, the problem is with the boys;

- If a man wants sex more often than his wife is willing to give, he’s selfish. If a woman wants sex more often than her husband is willing to give, he’s selfish;

- It is the mission of feminism to unshackle women so they can express their femininity in whatever manner they desire, and to shackle men so they can express their masculinity only in the manner feminists approve;

- Women insisted on having equal access to every place men congregate, then after they gained admittance, they insisted on having “women-only” spaces because they say they are afraid of the men;

- When women commit domestic violence, it’s called “self defense.” When men act in self-defense, it’s called domestic violence;

- When a woman accuses a man of rape and he denies it, there are conflicting claims of criminality, yet only one is arrested; only one’s name is reported in the news for the world to titillate to his humiliation; only one is likely to be imprisoned if he’s convicted; and only one will have the accusation trail him like a ghost for the rest of his life even if it is false. Can you guess his gender?

- A teen girl who is statutorily raped can have an abortion if her rapist impregnates her. A teen boy who is statutorily raped will be forced to pay child support to his rapist if she decides to have the child. And if the boy doesn’t pay, he likely will receive a punishment his rapist did not receive — he will be jailed;

I guess there aren't any double standards, eh?
 
I believe the topic was video games, someone rolled the topic to women are treated fairly in the workplace even if that workplace included sexist jokes and other ill treatment of others. I was simply saying that there is a double standard that we hold others to as we wouldn't expect men to pander to disparaging treatment.

When we're more caring towards others they will buy your product is the point I'm trying to get across. Yes, I agree the subject did switch too many times but discussing society's ills has a tendency to do that. You can't correlate one ill to another without understanding what the underlying problem is in the first place. That's very hard to do when the majority think that everything is working as intended (for them at least) in the first place.

@LeninGhola You do know there was cannibalism in Jamestown and other colonies. They aren't so far behind America in time. :)
 
mavrocket said:
Of course they are, just like men are held to double standards.

A choice few taken from: http://www.avoiceformen.com/men/mens-issues/double-standards-the-sine-qua-non-of-misandry/

- We happily remove male role models from our sons’ lives, then when our sons behave badly, we blame patriarchy;

- When girls were behind boys in educational achievement, people said the girls were just fine, the problem was with the schools. Now that boys are behind girls in every facet of educational achievement, people say the schools are just fine, the problem is with the boys;

- If a man wants sex more often than his wife is willing to give, he’s selfish. If a woman wants sex more often than her husband is willing to give, he’s selfish;

- It is the mission of feminism to unshackle women so they can express their femininity in whatever manner they desire, and to shackle men so they can express their masculinity only in the manner feminists approve;

- Women insisted on having equal access to every place men congregate, then after they gained admittance, they insisted on having “women-only” spaces because they say they are afraid of the men;

- When women commit domestic violence, it’s called “self defense.” When men act in self-defense, it’s called domestic violence;

- When a woman accuses a man of rape and he denies it, there are conflicting claims of criminality, yet only one is arrested; only one’s name is reported in the news for the world to titillate to his humiliation; only one is likely to be imprisoned if he’s convicted; and only one will have the accusation trail him like a ghost for the rest of his life even if it is false. Can you guess his gender?

- A teen girl who is statutorily raped can have an abortion if her rapist impregnates her. A teen boy who is statutorily raped will be forced to pay child support to his rapist if she decides to have the child. And if the boy doesn’t pay, he likely will receive a punishment his rapist did not receive — he will be jailed;

I guess there aren't any double standards, eh?
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You stated exactly what I'm talking about. Thank you for enlightening us as to what the problem is. BBL. Real life calling. :)
 
Funny they bring up Baldurs Gate the only series they havent fucked up in recent years. I wont play a game with a women as the lead. I really dont give a shit about their view of the world or how it would change the dynamic of the story being told. Only story that should be told involving a women is the epic sammich maker during her journey to the kitchen,
 
Stiletto said:
Nobody cares whether the protagonist is white, black, male, female, gay, straight, macho, feminist, or anything else. They should all be like Gordon Freeman: skilled, effective, and fucking silent.
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So you didn't like Brothers in Arms: Road To Hill 30?
 
evilsofa said:
So you didn't like Brothers in Arms: Road To Hill 30?
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I liked the game. I didn't pay any attention to the cutscenes after the first couple. Few video games have ever produced characters with depth that were interesting. Recently finished Spec Ops: The Line. Fantastic story...but each individual character in it was washed-out and cliche. The Call of Duty MW and BO series? Couldn't name you a single character other than "Soap", and I really don't remember anything else about him other than that he might have been the SAS character. I do remember CJ from GTA: San Andreas...and ultimately remember that he cared about his mom, his sister, himself, and nobody else. The rest of the time he's embracing a violent, criminal lifestyle, leaving no room for relation with the player. Scarface did it better 20 years before.

The only games I've ever remembered characters from have usually been RPGs like KOTOR or Fallout, and those were games designed first to tell a story. Most games are usually a basic premise with a story tacked on after the fact to suit level design.
 
The reactions in this thread are hilarious. "Oh noes, the wominz are stealin' our video games!"
 
TwistedAegis said:
The reactions in this thread are hilarious. "Oh noes, the wominz are stealin' our video games!"
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Are they, though? Outside of a handful of personality types, I doubt there would be any major butthurt over the industry being more inclusive to women. As a guy gamer, I'd be more inclined to say bring 'em on. Women are fun to game with.
 
Tudz said:
Wha? No one is saying anything of the sort.
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Of course they are. Anyone who expresses discontent at stupid political bullshit being brought into video games clearly is a misogynist who needs sensitivity training.
 
One thing I will say is that I'm glad I don't play on xbox Live anymore. Those kids may give a skewed perspective on the prevalence of misogyny.
 
Stiletto said:
Of course they are. Anyone who expresses discontent at stupid political bullshit being brought into video games clearly is a misogynist who needs sensitivity training.
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And until the re-education camps are up and running we'll continue to need it!

The next generation already has it in the form of public school...
 
Stiletto said:
Of course they are. Anyone who expresses discontent at stupid political bullshit being brought into video games clearly is a misogynist who needs sensitivity training.
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They're just having a conversation. No one is saying you can't have characters that we've always had, just that perhaps we should have more options than just white males. And this isn't the government, this is game developers themselves responding to feedback from other people in the community. The only reason it's perceived to be "political" is because you disagree with it because it doesn't effect you.

And it isn't just Xbox live, Counter-Strike was and is a bastion of that crap as well.
 
TwistedAegis said:
They're just having a conversation. No one is saying you can't have characters that we've always had, just that perhaps we should have more options than just white males.
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WHY does this matter? As has already been pointed out, we have had many non-white-male protagonists in hit games. Names like CJ and Lara Croft are gaming icons. For how many years has Samus been a female?

This is not an issue, and it contributes nothing to video games whatsoever. This is nothing more than culture engineering by a bunch of victim fetishists who sit around whining, "help help, my demographic is under-represented in (fill-in-the-blank)". The problem is not the gender or race of the protagonist. The problem is that some asshole starts up a game, says "goddammit, I don't want to be a white male"...and then has the balls to call OTHER people sexist or racist if they don't agree. Then they write on some stupid blog nobody cares about, Kotaku picks it up, HardForum links it, and we get another one of these threads.

TwistedAegis said:
The only reason it's perceived to be "political" is because you disagree with it because it doesn't effect you.
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Second iteration of "shut up, you will endure our political and sociological hand-wringing until your medium meets our demographic insecurities".

And it isn't just Xbox live, Counter-Strike was and is a bastion of that crap as well.
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And you still don't understand that what is said over anonymous microphones in games is the height of juvenile idiocy and has nothing to do with the mindset of adults.
 
Stiletto said:
WHY does this matter? As has already been pointed out, we have had many non-white-male protagonists in hit games. Names like CJ and Lara Croft are gaming icons. For how many years has Samus been a female?

This is not an issue, and it contributes nothing to video games whatsoever. This is nothing more than culture engineering by a bunch of victim fetishists who sit around whining, "help help, my demographic is under-represented in (fill-in-the-blank)". The problem is not the gender or race of the protagonist. The problem is that some asshole starts up a game, says "goddammit, I don't want to be a white male"...and then has the balls to call OTHER people sexist or racist if they don't agree. Then they write on some stupid blog nobody cares about, Kotaku picks it up, HardForum links it, and we get another one of these threads.
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It's not an issue...to you. And at least in earlier versions initially, I wouldn't say Lara Croft is some shining beacon of what females in games should look like; she was a ridiculous caricature with boobs that probably would have equated to 1/5 of her body weight. Female gamers are coming up, and are pushing for better representation.
 
People who have the mindset to sit around pondering the racial, sexual, religious, or other needless debates about video games are the type of people who create these situations. They are obsessed with political correctness, and it is destroying our sanity.
 
TwistedAegis said:
It's not an issue...to you. And at least in earlier versions initially, I wouldn't say Lara Croft is some shining beacon of what females in games should look like; she was a ridiculous caricature with boobs that probably would have equated to 1/5 of her body weight. Female gamers are coming up, and are pushing for better representation.
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Exactly! More women would play if they weren't represented so badly. But all the constant T&A that so many games constantly shove in your face is, understandably, quite a deterrent for women.

And LOL at all the "But...but tomb raider is a good game with a female protagonist!" yeah....and for every Lara Croft you have 10-20 awesome male characters.
 
TwistedAegis said:
It's not an issue...to you.
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You're right. It's only an issue to hypersensitive narcissists who demand that every form of media representation bend to accommodate their need for validation in a time where their actual marches for worthwhile causes have long past become unnecessary. Now they seek to impose their demands for equity and parity across all possible categorizations on a goddamn industry that started with two sticks bouncing a dot back and forth.
 
Stiletto said:
People who have the mindset to sit around pondering the racial, sexual, religious, or other needless debates about video games are the type of people who create these situations. They are obsessed with political correctness, and it is destroying our sanity.
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That's not PC, that's expecting people to be respectful. Can you imagine how upset men would get if women made jokes about small penis' and the like? That kind of "joking" is uncalled for.

Men REALLY need to get out of their "boys club" mentality, and fast!
 
cageymaru said:
@Tudz Grand Theft Auto San Andreas is a perfect example of a cops and robbers testosterone filled game that women and minorities loved to play. The game's director was Navid Khonsari, an Iranian, thus the main character was a minority. In a PBS documentary that for the life of me I can't find, he went to Iran and shot film of female and male reactions to his game. Those kids and adults treated him like a "Rockstar" literally because he brought their world to life in a way that nobody else in the gaming industry cared to. The female gamers in Iran were gushing about how they could make CJ eat, drink, sleep, etc. The game went on to become the #1 greatest selling game for the PS2.

Female gamers loved it. My 56 year old sister played the game. Her daughter played it. My 32 year old niece bought it on PS2, PC, and Mac multiple times. My great nieces love it to this very day. Some of them are 5 y.o. and can relate to the character. I think everyone now owns the game on Steam in my family that enjoys games. And that's before we even discuss what the males in my community and family thought of the game. I was just playing it not even 2 days ago with my current guild.

So, like I said. Why is it that some studios get it and some studios don't? I could get into why I see some minorities not in certain places of influence, even though there is plenty of opportunity provided to them by the actions of their grandfathers and others further down their family tree. But if you have games that sell that many copies and blur the lines of race, then why aren't more studios trying to harness that momentum. Or is it that they think that the GTA series was a fluke repeated over and over with mass sales?

Maybe I'm not as smart as those decision makers, but it seems to me that when a game bridges cultural differences and sells 20 million copies just on one platform alone, I'd want my guys trying to be inclusive to that demographic also.
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What do any of the things you've mentioned have to do with the gender, race or ethnicity of the main character? Isn't it just a good game, period?

mavrocket said:
Make games that target guys, and make games that target the ladies, 'nuff said. You can even take it farther and make games that target gays of either gender. Just don't expect to make a game that targets guys, girls and gays without making somebody not want to buy it.
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Why does there have to be any targeting on those basis? And that last sentence, uh...

Azureth said:
That's not PC, that's expecting people to be respectful. Can you imagine how upset men would get if women made jokes about small penis' and the like? That kind of "joking" is uncalled for.

Men REALLY need to get out of their "boys club" mentality, and fast!
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Oh, jeez, what a crybaby. A joke about small penises, oh, the horror!!! How not PC/respectful at all, lord have mercy on us and our normally proportioned reproductive organs.

+1 for everything Stiletto wrote.
 
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Azureth said:
Misogny is VERY prevelant from the lowest levels to the highest levels of govt and business.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q
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Misandry (hatred of boys/men) is VERY prevelant from the lowest levels to the highest levels of TV/Movie Entertainment and Education (K-12 and College). So what's your point?

Just because it's not pointed out (or bitched about) so loudly by the media to the TV-watching zombie herd it doesn't exist?

Darn feminists need to grow a pair and stop complaining about EVERYTHING... oh wait...
 
Azureth said:
That's not PC, that's expecting people to be respectful. Can you imagine how upset men would get if women made jokes about small penis' and the like? That kind of "joking" is uncalled for.

Men REALLY need to get out of their "boys club" mentality, and fast!
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-.-

-9000 points for this post, as this shows that you didn't take the time at all to research what happened there.

They were using technical terms, and she misunderstood and applied the sexual meaning.

And btw, she did small penis jokes all the time on twitter and worse. She also is a racist.

This thread is down the crapper.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Really? There are people in this thread mad we're even talking about it, calling anyone who cares narcissistic somethings or other.
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Meh, Stiletto just likes logical debate more than he should ;) Trust me, he enjoys the conversation, just not the methods and tone of it.

Anyway; I do think the vast majority of guy gamers would absolutely like to see more women in the industry. The truly biased are just a wailing minority. If you pull the issue out of the progressive guilt and cynical conservative oven, I think most people are on the same page.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Really? There are people in this thread mad we're even talking about it, calling anyone who cares narcissistic somethings or other.
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Err, no, there's not. No one gives a shit if the make more games for girls or more girls are gaming. You misconstrue the arguments if that's what you think. What people are griping about is being labeled misogynistic if they don't give preferential treatment to women (note: not "equal"), if they don't change their evil ways because otherwise they're gonna scare off the women and if developers don't try and pump feminine advertising and protagonists in to games.

I think you'll find most people here would be more than happy to have more women in gaming at all levels (as both gamers and developers). The argument comes in when people feel either like women are being singled out and shunned from gaming or when they feel like they're being told they're misogynistic for not rolling out a red carpet and making exceptions for any girl who might want to get in to gaming.
Azureth said:
That's not PC, that's expecting people to be respectful. Can you imagine how upset men would get if women made jokes about small penis' and the like? That kind of "joking" is uncalled for.
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What are you on about? Women and men alike make small penis jokes all the fucking time. I've seen TV ads where a guy rolls up in a nice car and a woman on the side of the street wiggles her little finger implying he has a small penis, in fact I'm sure I've seen more than one ad that uses that gesture.

You can't drive a nice car without getting some overcompensation jokes thrown your way.

People need to stop looking to be offended at every fucking thing that happens so we can reserve claims of sexism/racism/ageism/whatever-ism for when it's actually merited instead of just polarising the community for and against everything.
 
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Where in the OP does it state we're looking to give preferential treatment? Gaider is talking about player feedback, from female players, of what they would like to see more of, and how that isn't represented very much in the industry right now.

Also, it is easy to misconstrue "preferential" when this is the beginning of greater representation of women in gaming, via playable characters or focus, whatever. Greater focus than there was in the past, and an honest conversation about what has been a male dominated and focused industry for a long time (seriously, can you really argue otherwise?), does not equal preferential.
 
TwistedAegis said:
Where in the OP does it state we're looking to give preferential treatment? Gaider is talking about player feedback, from female players, of what they would like to see more of, and how that isn't represented very much in the industry right now.

Also, it is easy to misconstrue "preferential" when this is the beginning of greater representation of women in gaming, via playable characters or focus, whatever. Greater focus than there was in the past, and an honest conversation about what has been a male dominated and focused industry for a long time (seriously, can you really argue otherwise?), does not equal preferential.
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Yes, and people are giving their honest opinions, not saying "omg, keep dem wominz away from mee gamez" like you suggested.
 
TwistedAegis said:
He stayed at a Holiday Inn Express once. With a few hookers.
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I think a lot of what is perceived as misogynistic these days is anything but. Often, a lack of empathy is called misogyny, which it is not. Feminists and whiteknights alike will alienate and attack any opinions with even a slight variance from their own. It's become a situation where if you are a white male, you need to feel guilty just because. That's its own form of hypocritical bigotry.

I've myself been called misogynistic several times on these forums and others, even though not a single one of my ex girlfriends would ever say that, including the ones that may hold a grudge. Not JUST because I would beat them, but because I actually feel women are equal in value to men. I've never once been upset that a game had strong female characters, hell, I've never even thought about the fact that maybe someone somewhere might be until recently.
 
Well regardless of your stand, I'm glad people are interested in the topic. Good dialogue leads to change that everyone can agree on regardless if you currently think it's ok. Worst case scenario it makes you think which is always good. Thanks for keeping it civil to this point so the thread can stay open.
 
cageymaru said:
Well regardless of your stand, I'm glad people are interested in the topic. Good dialogue leads to change that everyone can agree on regardless if you currently think it's ok. Worst case scenario it makes you think which is always good. Thanks for keeping it civil to this point so the thread can stay open.
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Ok Obama. This "conversation" with all it's "good dialogue" has amounted to no one's opinions changed. I've spoke my mind only to be called a racist piece of shit then told that my free will should not exist, that I'm a horrible person for thinking the things I do.... And that if you can't be right, just throw out a falsehood that a person can waste 5-15minutes proving wrong, only to come back with some white flag waving "lets all be friends". How about no.
 
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