“How About We Just Decide How Not to Repel Women?”

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cageymaru

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BioWare’s David Gaider asked this during GDC 2013, “How about we just decide how not to repel women?” He goes on to relate how Bioware censored themselves in Baldur's Gate, why the industry still thinks that only white males aged 18 - 25 play games, why when you see a minority character in a game you immediately know that it's the bad guy without even thinking about it. He then talks about sexual orientation in gaming and angry fans, why women can't be the lead character in the eyes of developers, etc.

Very good read! If someone can find the video from GDC 2013 of his speech I would add it to this post. Guess since GDC just ended it's not up just yet. PC Gamer has an article about this also.
 

Plague_Injected

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If gaming has to be dragged kicking and screaming into the land of inclusiveness, then so be it. Gaming has a truly massive audience now, so developers and publishers won't be able to afford to apply 90s-demographic models onto today's gaming market forever.
 

socK

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I can really give less of a fuck what gender a character is as long as they are A GOOD CHARACTER.
 

Dome

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I can really give less of a fuck what gender a character is as long as they are A GOOD CHARACTER.

do you mean you "can't" care less? because it means the exact opposite thing
 

socK

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Yup, thanks man, knew I could count on you to get my back, that is the thing that was meant
 

cageymaru

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I can really give less of a fuck what gender a character is as long as they are A GOOD CHARACTER.

What you're saying I agree with 100%. But unfortunately that's not what the game developers think you want. They think that if they include a minority or woman in a game, then they have to fit a typical stereotypical role or you won't buy it. For them it's like betting on a 10,000 to 1 odds horse. Would you risk a $150 million dollar budget on a Hispanic female character that's portrayed as a savior? Or would you rather have Rambo as the lead and have her as the carrot on a stick dangled in front of you?

I remember when Bioware wanted to include same sex romance in SWTOR and many people posted that they were white, male, and straight on their forums. They were the people who buy games. They wanted Bioware to realize that only their demographic could afford a PC anyway so why cater to anyone else. Everyone else was not smart enough to even cut the thing on! This went on for months on the forums where mods would remove these posts and someone else would put them back up and try to get signatures to boycott Bioware games. I though I was watching the Presidential campaigns again. If you weren't White and male then you were an Illegal Immigrant as far as they were concerned.

In the game world we would have heated discussions about this in General chat. For hours stereotypes would get flung around as we didn't have much end game content concentrate on. So these discussions would break out and we'd debate if a woman was only smart enough to play Facebook games or was the White male demographic that gaming was shooting for dissuading them from wanting to play. These discussions would break out on the forums hourly.

Then Bioware announced that they wanted to add in same sex romances in the game and all hell broke loose then. We had religious people praying for the players. We had atheists insulting any religious person even if they were open minded. It was crazy! As mentioned before the worlds were kinda boring as far as end game goes with only 1 instance to run, so more people were chatting rather than questing.

So I completely understand where he is coming from as I witnessed it first hand and took part in some of the discussions. If you pay any attention to Twitch.tv you'll see these same ideals passed around in any large chat group. Some of the broadcasters that have been partnered cut on "Sub only" chat to stop the asinine comments about can women hold a mouse as well as something else and it starts to degrade further. It's ridiculous what people will say when they think they are anonymous. It's like they spew out what they've been thinking and holding back for years. And it's emotionally refreshing for them to do so like a weight has been lifted from their backs. My niece cancelled her XBOX Live account the other day because she was getting too many stalkers in her games asking for "favors", and insulting her play even though she was at the top of the leader board. The hate she experienced just because they heard a female voice attached to the ass kicking they received is ridiculous!

I guess what I'm saying is do you stick your head in the sand or do something about it? This guy wants to do something about it and I think it's a great idea to have more Tomb Raider type women as lead characters in games. And well written minority characters also. Being more inclusive in gaming should be a hot topic as it would cure companies going out of business due to a lack of sales. I would think that more people buying your product is a good thing. Or maybe it will run the 18 - 25 age White male age group away if they are presented with other choices in character design?

Debate! :)
 

lilbabycat

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And it's emotionally refreshing for them to do so like a weight has been lifted from their backs. My niece cancelled her XBOX Live account the other day because she was getting too many stalkers in her games asking for "favors", and insulting her play even though she was at the top of the leader board. The hate she experienced just because they heard a female voice attached to the ass kicking they received is ridiculous!

The thing is, guys like me, either don't believe or outright laugh at this story. She was either not very good at the games and not at "the top of the leaderboards", but terrible at the game... or she was unable to handle the kind of shit talking that goes on between EVERYONE male and female alike. Feminine voice? Get made fun of for being a girl (or a 12yr old boy). Have a redneck voice? Get called white-trash cross burner. Sound black? You're getting the N-bomb thrown at you. Geeky? Nerd-Basement dweller shit-talk. That's the difference between men and women. Men can handle competition / insult, and women (in the majority) cannot. You could rewrite history on every game ever released, switching male and female roles, and the demographics of the games would largely be the same. And yes, it is all ridiculous. But in an EXTREMELY politically correct world, those guys sitting down to play a game, to have fun, they WANT to be ridiculous, they want to be unhinged, they want an "anything goes" environment.
The moment you start taking that away, and start homogenizing the experience, start making it have the same rules as work, that's when it stops being fun. That's when it's ruined. And that's why men blame women for ruining everything.
Now tell your niece to stay out.
he-man-woman-haters-club-little-rascals.jpg
 

Pez

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Just play Scarlet Blade where all characters are female. Problem solved.
 

Azureth

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The thing is, guys like me, either don't believe or outright laugh at this story. She was either not very good at the games and not at "the top of the leaderboards", but terrible at the game... or she was unable to handle the kind of shit talking that goes on between EVERYONE male and female alike. Feminine voice? Get made fun of for being a girl (or a 12yr old boy). Have a redneck voice? Get called white-trash cross burner. Sound black? You're getting the N-bomb thrown at you. Geeky? Nerd-Basement dweller shit-talk. That's the difference between men and women. Men can handle competition / insult, and women (in the majority) cannot. You could rewrite history on every game ever released, switching male and female roles, and the demographics of the games would largely be the same. And yes, it is all ridiculous. But in an EXTREMELY politically correct world, those guys sitting down to play a game, to have fun, they WANT to be ridiculous, they want to be unhinged, they want an "anything goes" environment.
The moment you start taking that away, and start homogenizing the experience, start making it have the same rules as work, that's when it stops being fun. That's when it's ruined. And that's why men blame women for ruining everything.
Now tell your niece to stay out.
he-man-woman-haters-club-little-rascals.jpg
That is an absolutely horrible excuse. We shouldn't accept harassment of any kind because "that's just the way it is and has always been like that". You obviously aren't fully aware of the way the patriarchy has conditioned men and women to view/respond to things in a certain way. Just like the "women in the kitchen" jokes that guys say should never be acceptable. It's just a slight towards women and not at all appropriate.

Women most definitely need to be better portrayed in videogames, only then will more willingly play them. But currently being as the vast majority of influence and power comes from men in our society of course they are just going to stick to their sexist ways.

And men like you aren't helping by making excuses for it!
 

cageymaru

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The thing is, guys like me, either don't believe or outright laugh at this story. She was either not very good at the games and not at "the top of the leaderboards", but terrible at the game... or she was unable to handle the kind of shit talking that goes on between EVERYONE male and female alike. Feminine voice? Get made fun of for being a girl (or a 12yr old boy). Have a redneck voice? Get called white-trash cross burner. Sound black? You're getting the N-bomb thrown at you. Geeky? Nerd-Basement dweller shit-talk. That's the difference between men and women. Men can handle competition / insult, and women (in the majority) cannot. You could rewrite history on every game ever released, switching male and female roles, and the demographics of the games would largely be the same. And yes, it is all ridiculous. But in an EXTREMELY politically correct world, those guys sitting down to play a game, to have fun, they WANT to be ridiculous, they want to be unhinged, they want an "anything goes" environment.
The moment you start taking that away, and start homogenizing the experience, start making it have the same rules as work, that's when it stops being fun. That's when it's ruined. And that's why men blame women for ruining everything.
Now tell your niece to stay out.
he-man-woman-haters-club-little-rascals.jpg

You're the face of racism that hurled insults on the Bioware when they added in same sex romances. You're the anonymous troll that stalked my niece when she would play games and breath at her, call her names, tell her that only men can play. My niece is 32 and in management for a company; she's not 12. Doesn't mean that she wants to pay $50 a year to get called bitch, I'm coming to rape you after the match like Steubenville, Ohio, etc. You're exactly the person this article was written about.

You're whom video games are developed for. What this guy is talking about is changing that atmosphere and making it so that others have fun also. So they can sell more software, reach more demographics. etc. I think it's a great idea and I want to foster this type of debate. Glad to see you stand up and take credit for your actions. Elaborate more please. :)
 

Azureth

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You're the face of racism that hurled insults on the Bioware when they added in same sex romances. You're the anonymous troll that stalked my niece when she would play games and breath at her, call her names, tell her that only men can play. My niece is 32 and in management for a company; she's not 12. Doesn't mean that she wants to pay $50 a year to get called bitch, I'm coming to rape you after the match like Steubenville, Ohio, etc. You're exactly the person this article was written about.

You're whom video games are developed for. What this guy is talking about is changing that atmosphere and making it so that others have fun also. So they can sell more software, reach more demographics. etc. I think it's a great idea and I want to foster this type of debate. Glad to see you stand up and take credit for your actions. Elaborate more please. :)

Bravo! You are right on the mark. It's sad how we value masculinity over femininity. If a woman wants to do something that a man does it's considered acceptable and even cool, yet turn that around and a guy doing anything feminine would be ridiculed and harassed.

Sadly, this has caused sexism to be so ingrained within our society that few actually take a real good look at it. I have a friend that says it doesn't matter how good the game is, he just can't play a game with a female character.

Sexism in the gaming industry as well as most others is rampant. Women have to work twice as hard just to get a medium of respect men do. Yet so many men think it's as simple as women just "adapting" to the sexism that pervades all of society.
 

Derangel

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I think Gaider hit something really perfectly in his talk:

“Privilege is when you think that something’s not a problem because it’s not a problem for you personally,” he said. “If you’re part of a group that’s being catered to, you believe that’s the way it should be. ‘It’s always been that way, why would that be a problem for anyone?’

“I want you to indulge me for a moment, imagine that since video games were first made, all major characters are black. Every hero. Everyone who does something virtuous, they’re all black. Good white characters? Few and far between. Mostly minor—the white guy on the team. White female characters? Unheard of…If your response to that is, ‘Actually I wouldn’t mind,’ I’m pretty sure if you talked to somebody who is in that position, they could tell you that you would. You don’t have the context to understand what someone’s going to…you have to recognize that, because that’s privilege. Because you have the privilege to not have to understand.”

There is a huge amount of privileged reactions coming from the gaming community. Not just from gamers, but the game's press, developers, and publishers are all giving the same reaction.
 

drako

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There have been a number of stories recently about developers who were told by their pubs that they were not allowed to have a female lead in their game. So I don't think Gaider is off base here, and I think this "shit" is neither overblown nor asinine.
 

Revdarian

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Problem is with the shareholders & big execs, in the form of "studies show that female lead games generate less profit", and that is all at the moment.

The developer may get pissed with reason, but all the money people has to do is deny the cash.

What they could do is start showing that there may be a market with leads where you choose the sex, and well do look at actual women when creating the 3d models.

BTW a real sidepoint, i take offense of him using Dragon Age's II gay character as something to point out homophobes, as that character was actually offensive to gays. My gay pals aren't trying to get in my pants all the time and getting pissy and considering me less of a friend if i say no ;).
 

DeathPrincess

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Just make it so people have to play themselves in games. Would be weird watching 3 slightly podgy neckbeards and a bunch of 12 year olds trying to hold an objective. :D

The depictions of all people in games are weird, I mean how many fat people do you see in games, especially as the lead role?
 

Revdarian

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Lol i actually do have fun trying to make my characters fat if the rpg allows it... makes for interesting "Roleplays" :D
 

Derangel

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BTW a real sidepoint, i take offense of him using Dragon Age's II gay character as something to point out homophobes, as that character was actually offensive to gays. My gay pals aren't trying to get in my pants all the time and getting pissy and considering me less of a friend if i say no ;).

DA2 is actually a good example of what happens when you're too inclusive. As I recall, every party member besides Hawk's brother/sister is romancable no matter what gender you are.
 

Climber

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....
Debate! :)

It is the internet. What the fuck do you think is going to happen when you don't have to be civil. See Penny Arcade's fuckwad theory.

You know what happens when you let a bunch of people not involved in a project chime in on said project? You get different opinions from each one and the majority of said opinions are wrong. You make a great game with a female lead, ala Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, they'll sell well. You make a shitty ass game or a niche game they won't sell well regardless of who the lead is. See numerous shitty games with male lead.

Grow a pair of balls, tell people to grow up, and make your fucking project and if the Westborough Baptist Church wants to come protest it, fuck em let them protest it. Free advertising. If the bean counters don't way to pay for said game find another pair of mean counters, if you are unable to fuck said bean counters by showing them stats from said games where bean counters run shit and games turn out bad. Still won't work, quit, go indie, and start a kickstarter. That seems to be all the rage today.

And yes I am an ultra religious conservative.
 

Derangel

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It is the internet. What the fuck do you think is going to happen when you don't have to be civil. See Penny Arcade's fuckwad theory.

You know what happens when you let a bunch of people not involved in a project chime in on said project? You get different opinions from each one and the majority of said opinions are wrong. You make a great game with a female lead, ala Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, they'll sell well. You make a shitty ass game or a niche game they won't sell well regardless of who the lead is. See numerous shitty games with male lead.

Grow a pair of balls, tell people to grow up, and make your fucking project and if the Westborough Baptist Church wants to come protest it, fuck em let them protest it. Free advertising. If the bean counters don't way to pay for said game find another pair of mean counters, if you are unable to fuck said bean counters by showing them stats from said games where bean counters run shit and games turn out bad. Still won't work, quit, go indie, and start a kickstarter. That seems to be all the rage today.

And yes I am an ultra religious conservative.

Except Tomb Raider didn't sell well. It underperformed.
 

cageymaru

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Problem is with the shareholders & big execs, in the form of "studies show that female lead games generate less profit", and that is all at the moment.

The developer may get pissed with reason, but all the money people has to do is deny the cash.

What they could do is start showing that there may be a market with leads where you choose the sex, and well do look at actual women when creating the 3d models.

BTW a real sidepoint, i take offense of him using Dragon Age's II gay character as something to point out homophobes, as that character was actually offensive to gays. My gay pals aren't trying to get in my pants all the time and getting pissy and considering me less of a friend if i say no ;).

I see the video game industry in the same light as the movie industry leading up to the 1960's. To that point movies were strictly for an all white audience, even though minorities went to view them occasionally. Someone in Hollywood took notice, stirred the pot, and started casting minorities in them. Took Hollywood losing customers from 1880 to the 1930's to cast the first minorities in "monkey shine" roles. Gone with the Wind was one of the first big time roles for a minority woman. That was in 1939 and she was a house servant in the film. This lead to Sidney Poitier winning an Oscar in 1964 for "Lilies of the Field".

The point is that the time leading up to 1964, execs in Hollywood were saying the same thing as the video game execs are now. That minorities don't watch our product. Why should we try to sell to that group by including them in films and run the risk of alienating our customers. So we won't include them in our films to protect our fan base. The fact is that when they did, they started making more money than they ever did previously as they had more diverse a group coming to see the films.

Diversity wins. It's what America was founded on. It works. Everyone needs to stop hating and get along. As far as your Dragon Age character being portrayed in a bad light, it's the same as when the movie industry portrayed African Americans in 'monkey shine" roles. History repeats its self.
 

cageymaru

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It is the internet. What the fuck do you think is going to happen when you don't have to be civil. See Penny Arcade's fuckwad theory.

You know what happens when you let a bunch of people not involved in a project chime in on said project? You get different opinions from each one and the majority of said opinions are wrong. You make a great game with a female lead, ala Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, they'll sell well. You make a shitty ass game or a niche game they won't sell well regardless of who the lead is. See numerous shitty games with male lead.

Grow a pair of balls, tell people to grow up, and make your fucking project and if the Westborough Baptist Church wants to come protest it, fuck em let them protest it. Free advertising. If the bean counters don't way to pay for said game find another pair of mean counters, if you are unable to fuck said bean counters by showing them stats from said games where bean counters run shit and games turn out bad. Still won't work, quit, go indie, and start a kickstarter. That seems to be all the rage today.

And yes I am an ultra religious conservative.

Climber just wondering and not calling you out; trying to foster good debate. :) Do you as an ultra religious conservative have issues with a game design where at some point in the plot there is a gay character that you meet. That character latches onto your party and assists you in defeating evil. This npc saves you and others from a no win situation. After hours of play with this this npc in tow and tons of meaningful conversations, a dialogue pops up that asks if you would like to pursue a relationship with this character. You can choose yes or no. If you choose no then you're still cool with the character as before and you continue fighting crime together. If you choose yes, then you can pursue them as a love interest just like a female character in the game.

Would such a scenario infuriate you that they put that option there? Or would you just choose the straight route and think it was neat that they had the option there for someone else's enjoyment. Would you let the gay character die later on in the game if you had the choice to save them as they had saved you earlier? Or would you skip the game entirely because there is a question in the game that asked do you want to pursue a relationship with a gay npc within the game.

Like I said not calling you out. Just want some perspective.
 

BladeVenom

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After Dragon Age II, he should concentrate on making a good game instead of political correctness.
 

Climber

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Except Tomb Raider didn't sell well. It underperformed.

The original tomb raider was one of the all time best sellers in the 90's and spawned numerous sequels

And the 2013 reboot of the franchise is the best selling of the franchise already selling more than 6 million copies so while square enix may believe it underperformed it has already surpassed expectations of Crystal Dynamics and is a contender for GoTY.

In regards to the topic of females as leads, the game sold more than 1 million copies in 48 hours and without DD sales is over 4 million sales after a month. Good games sell regardless of a male or female lead. Silent Hill, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil. Metroid, Diablo, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Myst, Syberia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of others but all of those had strong female leads and excellent gameplay and sold well.

I find it hard to believe someone looks at a great game with great graphics, great gameplay, an intriguing storyline, and an amazing atmosphere and goes well crap, can't play this because the main character is a girl. I've honestly never met a single person in 30 years of playing PC and Console games that has said that. Are there people that have, I'm sure there are but morons, idiots, and other morlocks of society shouldn't count in normal people polls.
 

LeninGHOLA

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I think crowdfunding will help show what the industry wants. I presonally have no issue with supporting games with strong female characters. I liked games like The Longest Journey, and even FemShep in ME wasn't bad. I don't think most people are turned off by including women in gaming, I blame epic lolbro energy drink murder it out explosion marketing from out of touch publishers, not the gaming community.

I enjoy playing games with women and I think most of us guy gamers would agree on that.
 

Derangel

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The original tomb raider was one of the all time best sellers in the 90's and spawned numerous sequels

And the 2013 reboot of the franchise is the best selling of the franchise already selling more than 6 million copies so while square enix may believe it underperformed it has already surpassed expectations of Crystal Dynamics and is a contender for GoTY.

In regards to the topic of females as leads, the game sold more than 1 million copies in 48 hours and without DD sales is over 4 million sales after a month. Good games sell regardless of a male or female lead. Silent Hill, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil. Metroid, Diablo, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Myst, Syberia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of others but all of those had strong female leads and excellent gameplay and sold well.

I find it hard to believe someone looks at a great game with great graphics, great gameplay, an intriguing storyline, and an amazing atmosphere and goes well crap, can't play this because the main character is a girl. I've honestly never met a single person in 30 years of playing PC and Console games that has said that. Are there people that have, I'm sure there are but morons, idiots, and other morlocks of society shouldn't count in normal people polls.

The thing is publishers won't see it as selling "well" they will ONLY see that SquareEnix says it underperformed.
 

cageymaru

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The original tomb raider was one of the all time best sellers in the 90's and spawned numerous sequels

And the 2013 reboot of the franchise is the best selling of the franchise already selling more than 6 million copies so while square enix may believe it underperformed it has already surpassed expectations of Crystal Dynamics and is a contender for GoTY.

In regards to the topic of females as leads, the game sold more than 1 million copies in 48 hours and without DD sales is over 4 million sales after a month. Good games sell regardless of a male or female lead. Silent Hill, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil. Metroid, Diablo, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Myst, Syberia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of others but all of those had strong female leads and excellent gameplay and sold well.

I find it hard to believe someone looks at a great game with great graphics, great gameplay, an intriguing storyline, and an amazing atmosphere and goes well crap, can't play this because the main character is a girl. I've honestly never met a single person in 30 years of playing PC and Console games that has said that. Are there people that have, I'm sure there are but morons, idiots, and other morlocks of society shouldn't count in normal people polls.

Well said sir. Well said. :) But the truth is that there are people that say that, and the publishers think they are the majority. If the money says they are the majority then that's who gets catered to.
 

cageymaru

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I think crowdfunding will help show what the industry wants. I presonally have no issue with supporting games with strong female characters. I liked games like The Longest Journey, and even FemShep in ME wasn't bad. I don't think most people are turned off by including women in gaming, I blame epic lolbro energy drink murder it out explosion marketing from out of touch publishers, not the gaming community.

I enjoy playing games with women and I think most of us guy gamers would agree on that.

I think that male gamers are fine with women gamers until they become guild master, put up a higher dps number on a boss fight, outheal them in a raid, snipe them from across the map, etc. Most will still be cool with them and accept them as an individual, but others will start hating. That testosterone filled rage where you can get drunk and beat your wife comes out in them and they can't hold it in. Since they can't physically hit them they rage quit or start hurling insults. When publishers see passionate players they see dollar signs and try to cater to them more. That's why we're here in a nutshell.
 

Climber

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Climber just wondering and not calling you out; trying to foster good debate. :) Do you as an ultra religious conservative have issues with a game design where at some point in the plot there is a gay character that you meet. That character latches onto your party and assists you in defeating evil. This npc saves you and others from a no win situation. After hours of play with this this npc in tow and tons of meaningful conversations, a dialogue pops up that asks if you would like to pursue a relationship with this character. You can choose yes or no. If you choose no then you're still cool with the character as before and you continue fighting crime together. If you choose yes, then you can pursue them as a love interest just like a female character in the game.

I wouldn't choose him as a love interest. Very rarely do I ever pursue the love options in a game. 300 hours into Skyrim and I just decided on doing the marriage option and adopting kids. Regardless of sexuality those avenues of games don't interest me unless it is forced and I need to choose.

Would such a scenario infuriate you that they put that option there? Or would you just choose the straight route and think it was neat that they had the option there for someone else's enjoyment. Would you let the gay character die later on in the game if you had the choice to save them as they had saved you earlier? Or would you skip the game entirely because there is a question in the game that asked do you want to pursue a relationship with a gay npc within the game.

Like I said not calling you out. Just want some perspective.

I treat my actions in game as I would in real life. Gay people neither infuriate me or make me upset nor do I mind working with or hanging out with them. Got a co-worker at work who I've worked with for years who flirts with me the same way many of the men and women flirt with each other. It doesn't bother me one bit and I treat it the same as if a women flirts with me.

If I had to choose the gay or straight option in the game I would choose straight and not think anything negative or derogatory about the other option. I would think it neat that the developers added the option for various playstyles, similar as adding the option to play as male or female.

Would I let the gay character die? Yes, but not because he was gay or female. If a choice needed to be made, ala Mass Effect, to save someone I would save the most prudent for the success of the mission. In real life I hope I would never think twice about laying my life down to save someone regardless of race, gender, creed, or sexuality.

Would I skip a great game because it had sexual or homosexual overtones to the game. Not if it was fun. For example, I've never played GTA. Not because it was violent, allowed prostitution, or anything like that I just never got into the original due to MMO's and the series never got a chance to take root. My sandbox games are fallout and skyrim and as I'm older, married, father, and a business owner my time to play games is extremely limited. I've got a great wife who understands it is a hobby and she accommodates me playing games still, but I'm more selective and picky now. I just knocked out Tomb Raider because I loved that series growing up. I skipped on Resident Evil 6 because reviews are poor across the board, if the reviews had been better or shown some sign of promise I would have picked that up, instead I'm going to go back to Skyrim and finish off some of the new content and mods I installed.

Now while this all sounds like someone who is exactly the opposite of a conservative religious nut I'm not bi-polar or schizophrenic I just understand a very simple concept. Christ never forced anyone to believe on him and he accepted anyone and everyone. The only people whose wheaties he shit in were the religious nuts who should have known better. Am I or will I treat them a homosexual differently than anyone else? No. I'm just as screwed up in the eyes of God as anyone else regardless of sexuality. I don't need anyone running around pointing out my flaws so I'm not going to do that to anyone else.

Unless of course you're EA or Activision then I'm going to point out every single flaw I can! :D
 

demingo

Trump is My President!
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
2,702
The original tomb raider was one of the all time best sellers in the 90's and spawned numerous sequels

And the 2013 reboot of the franchise is the best selling of the franchise already selling more than 6 million copies so while square enix may believe it underperformed it has already surpassed expectations of Crystal Dynamics and is a contender for GoTY.

It's actually only sold 3.4m not 6. Don't mess up your numbers.

In regards to the topic of females as leads, the game sold more than 1 million copies in 48 hours and without DD sales is over 4 million sales after a month. Good games sell regardless of a male or female lead. Silent Hill, Tomb Raider, Resident Evil. Metroid, Diablo, Heavenly Sword, Parasite Eve, Myst, Syberia, and I'm sure I'm forgetting a ton of others but all of those had strong female leads and excellent gameplay and sold well.

I find it hard to believe someone looks at a great game with great graphics, great gameplay, an intriguing storyline, and an amazing atmosphere and goes well crap, can't play this because the main character is a girl. I've honestly never met a single person in 30 years of playing PC and Console games that has said that. Are there people that have, I'm sure there are but morons, idiots, and other morlocks of society shouldn't count in normal people polls.

100 best selling games of 2012.

I looked it over. Not one game with an exclusive female lead on the list. The numbers do not lie. The majority of the games you listed have a select-able lead. In games where you can select a lead character the majority of players choose male. In ME3 80% of characters were created male.

You can rant all you want but not having a single female led game in the top 100 is all publishers need to see.

To really send the point home, here is the top 200 of all time . First game with a female lead is Cooking Mama at 133, Tomb Raider 2 is at 147. Stats don't lie.
 

cageymaru

Fully [H]
Joined
Apr 10, 2003
Messages
21,195
@Climber thank you very much for your input. I agree with you 100% and I wish more people like you existed.

@Demingo That 3.4 number only includes physical copies sold. Digital downloads are tracked but I'm not sure where you can get those numbers. Once again your top 100 games list is basically a console only list as most PC gamers buy digitally.
 

demingo

Trump is My President!
Joined
Feb 22, 2003
Messages
2,702
@Climber thank you very much for your input. I agree with you 100% and I wish more people like you existed.

@Demingo That 3.4 number only includes physical copies sold. Digital downloads are tracked but I'm not sure where you can get those numbers. Once again your top 100 games list is basically a console only list as most PC gamers buy digitally.

Absolutely you are right. But I severely doubt you would see a huge shift in market tenancies on the PC. Remember, if you increase TR numbers due to digital download, there are a ton of games on that list who would also need their numbers increased. Relatively the positioning would remain the same.
 

GuyClinch

Gawd
Joined
Feb 4, 2006
Messages
544
Deveoping computer games is hardwork and they only have limited budget. So the more time spent on developing 'inclusiveness' the less time that can be spent on making the game rock.

The pay off for the inclusion of more romance/lead character options doesn't seem to match the downsides - especially in this competitive market. Some of the people that would play DAII are just going to play Witcher 2 instead. Witcher 2 doesn't seem to have 'any' inclusiveness -- but many people liked it better then DA II despite its pathetic budget in comparison.

I think of gaming more like skiing. The ski resorts looked at the massive expensive involved with skiing and for the most part have long ago 'given up' on getting everyone to ski. They instead concentrate on making sure the people that already ski - have a good time. That's sound business strategy.

Likewise the game designers need to worry about making excellent games not creating a giant FBI like crime chart of romance options. Even the white heterosexual players don't often care about that..
 

Godmachine

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Apr 7, 2003
Messages
10,472
I can really give less of a fuck what gender a character is as long as they are A GOOD CHARACTER.

Agreed. I don't get why the industry thinks I care. I loved the female lead in Beyond Good and Evil. I loved the female lead in Mirror's Edge. Two great games I just pop'd off the top of my head and I'm sure I could think of more.

I would think that as a business you would want to MAXIMIZE your audience appeal to maximize profits. I guess the gaming industry just works ass backwards on that one.

Good thing Kickstarter is around to help fund projects where developers can stand up for females and present a good character that may or may not convince dollars out from pockets from the masses.

This will blow over. The gaming industry will make more games with female leads , its only a matter of a few bone heads seeing the potential.
 

lilbabycat

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 21, 2011
Messages
3,810
You're the face of racism that hurled insults on the Bioware when they added in same sex romances. You're the anonymous troll that stalked my niece when she would play games and breath at her, call her names, tell her that only men can play. My niece is 32 and in management for a company; she's not 12. Doesn't mean that she wants to pay $50 a year to get called bitch, I'm coming to rape you after the match like Steubenville, Ohio, etc. You're exactly the person this article was written about. You're whom video games are developed for. What this guy is talking about is changing that atmosphere and making it so that others have fun also. So they can sell more software, reach more demographics. etc. I think it's a great idea and I want to foster this type of debate. Glad to see you stand up and take credit for your actions. Elaborate more please. :)
As far as Steubenville goes, i could nitpick a whole myriad of issues on that one, but basically it is a radically different argument than this one and why you continue to bring it up every chance you get I simply don't understand.

Back to the subject at hand, you and Azureth continue to have this idea that woman are specifically insulted and that is an exclusive situtation for them, when as I said in my original post, is as far from the truth as it comes. The insults might be specific, but EVERYONE gets shit-talking to. EVERYONE. Guys like to do that. We don't always like getting it thrown at us, but guess what, we'd rather have it than be preventing from doing it in all cases, all scenarios. But that's not what you're after, that's not what you're looking at. You're looking at the specific scenario of WOMEN being insulted. You don't bother to think that "hey, if we ban this type of talk, what else do we ban?". You start censoring people to the degrees that you want, you inherently also censoring a whole myriad of other things that you might think are perfectly innocent.

Sexism in the gaming industry as well as most others is rampant. Women have to work twice as hard just to get a medium of respect men do. Yet so many men think it's as simple as women just "adapting" to the sexism that pervades all of society.
"most" others? you are stretching far there. Women are at a disadvantage in manual labor jobs because...guess what... women are genetically weaker. They need to work 2x as hard to equal work, hence the disparity in respect. So that's what, half of all jobs? 1/3? How about the field of medicine / sciences? If there is any set of fields where women are equal and treated as such, I see this one. I work at a hospital, I should know. Nurses, Doctors, Specialists EQUAL. I could go on, but what it comes down to is that male-created and therefore male-dominated fields are the ones that women are considered unequal. But why? Because the key qualities that make a man, a man, ones that are genetically ingrained in them are what produced those whole industries...These qualities that don't necessarily exist in most women. Those things that are natural to them aren't necessarily good for the industry.
And that is why I argue for things staying the way they are... but you know, I don't want them to stay absolutely the same, I want better stories, i want better characters, I want more diversity in games; but I also want to curse, spit, and holler obscenities. If losing the latter means a delay in or regressive of the former, then sorry, no deal. But I don't see that as what you're pushing. I see you/this as pushing for special treatment because of gender. I don't see the industry "growing up" by having all of these rules and measures made, I see it as one being ultimately being stunted.
I could go on, and I want to, but me writing this has gone much longer (and I physically have leave and do something)....I just want to press the idea that "guys like us" won't budge on our mindsets if this is the avenue that you approach it as. Men won't being assholes, and women won't stop being bitching about it. It's simply not going to happen, and until you accept that, you will get no where in changing this industry for the better. You might change it; but it won't be equal, it won't be progression, it won't be a net "positive".
 

LeninGHOLA

Vladimir Hayt
Joined
Aug 26, 2009
Messages
18,416
I think that male gamers are fine with women gamers until they become guild master, put up a higher dps number on a boss fight, outheal them in a raid, snipe them from across the map, etc. Most will still be cool with them and accept them as an individual, but others will start hating. That testosterone filled rage where you can get drunk and beat your wife comes out in them and they can't hold it in. Since they can't physically hit them they rage quit or start hurling insults. When publishers see passionate players they see dollar signs and try to cater to them more. That's why we're here in a nutshell.

We had a female guild leader in one of the top raid guilds in EQ for quite a while. No trouble was caused. Some of our very best players were (actual) women, too. It wasn't 50/50, but that's due to demographics. You can't raid at a bleeding edge level and not have respect for other players and their abilities.
 
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