Homelessness Tax Would Target Rich Tech Sector in San Francisco

nutzo

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The more comfortable you make being homeless, the more folks will just say screw it and become homeless. The homeless lifestyle may have a higher risk but responsibility for anything goes way down. My guess is only a small percent of the homeless in SF are homeless because of mental issues. I think most chose the lifestyle because free food, mostly temperate climate and a city that pretty much tolerates anything they do.

We've had some major problems with homeless camps down here in Southern California.
Most these people are homeless due to drug problems or are people recently released from jail due to our over crowded prisons.
Areas near these homeless camps have major problems with petty crimes like stolen bikes, etc.

I know people who work at some of the food pantries that give out free food to the poor.
While there are some people who really appreciate the help (usually not homeless, just poor), most of the homeless types tend to be demanding and threatening.
They are told that when they arrive to volunteer, they should not talk to or even make eye contact with the people waiting in line, for their own safety.
 

DooKey

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Oh please, don't go around making sense like that, you're killiing the "they're all lazy bums anyway" squad!

People here act as if the homeless are there because they don't want to work.

I've lived on my car for a few days. And trust me, it snowballs. Shit happens, you have nowhere to go. Then, you stink and your clothes are dirty and beaten. If you have a job, it's in danger; if you don't, how are you getting one?

But it's always easier to just dismiss every single one of them as "lazy" and keep going through life pretending you're the hot shot that has all figured out... you guys have absolutely no clue at all.

Some people do fall on hard times. Regardless, there is always a church or shelter where you can go and wash your clothes and take a shower. All it takes is effort most times to get where you need to be. I know because I've helped people out before. Not total strangers, but I did find them help and even gave them money to keep them out of a car. It can be done. I also spend time at a food pantry and this is food donated by good people.
 

Hagrid

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We've had some major problems with homeless camps down here in Southern California.
Most these people are homeless due to drug problems or are people recently released from jail due to our over crowded prisons.
Areas near these homeless camps have major problems with petty crimes like stolen bikes, etc.

I know people who work at some of the food pantries that give out free food to the poor.
While there are some people who really appreciate the help (usually not homeless, just poor), most of the homeless types tend to be demanding and threatening.
They are told that when they arrive to volunteer, they should not talk to or even make eye contact with the people waiting in line, for their own safety.
Why? Cali has some of the toughest guns laws. People are safe there.
 

cyclone3d

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Considering that $117k a year is considered poverty, I'd say there are plenty of people whom are educated enough to make in that ball park range and are still living in their cars...

Not every one who lives on the streets are straight bums.

In that case, they should scrape enough money together and MOVE to a less retarded state.
 

Donald Bell

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While everyone here fights, I want to make a point for you all to ponder.

Just because the tax rate is X%, does not mean that an individual/household is paying X% of their income. This is especially true of the wealthy who have many more tools and resources available to them to avoid the taxman.

I know this won't compute for some, but affluency doesn't make someone a good person and poverty doesn't make someone a bad person. Just because someone is homeless doesn't mean they are serving some sort of punishment of cosmic justice.

Extra Credit - Learn and understand what "poverty trap" means
 

filip

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Those high tax rates in the mid 20th century are very misleading. Almost nobody paid them and there were numerous ridiculous exceptions put in that would exempt many of the rich.

Everyone keeps saying that "rich" people are exempt from taxes. Where is this magical exemption? While I agree that no one pays the full tax rate on all of the income they make, they still pay taxes let me list a few forms of tax: Property tax, sales tax, medicare, social security, state taxes (unless you are fortunate to live in a state that doesn't have this tax) federal taxes (which included taxes on investments), other taxes your state or city wants to impose other than sales tax, taxes when you die. Everyone pays taxes or has someone that pays them on their behalf.
 

HeadRusch

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You're over paranoid.. enough said.


You're entitled to your opinion, Sir or Madam.

Instead of talking about it, do something.

I pay my taxes, when they ask for more I pay those, too. Why? Because I can, and it's the right thing to do as, you know, a responsible citizen of this Country.
I also hold doors for people....just cuz.

As I don't like to boast, fuck it...
I donate over 100 hours a year of my time to feeding those in need of food. The biggest day coming up is on Thanksgiving where I donate a 8a to 11p shift in one of the local soup kitchens. I always throw a good grand or so on this day as it feeds roughly 700-800 people. How about you? Be a keyboard warrior all you want, it isn't doing anything in the real world.

Yep, I got's nothing. I don't volunteer.

Roughly 8-10% of my income goes to charitable causes, specifically to those relating to homeless shelters. How about yours?
And none of this goes on my taxes for write off purposes.
I've been very blessed with my life out in California and I've never taken it for granted. Don't assume shit until you know the facts.

Strugging a bit trying to decipher your meltdown here, but I didn't assume much of anything and certainly nothing about you specifically, I thought we were speaking but disagreeing.
Also, not for nothing but absolutely none of your self-proclaimed accomplishments/sacrifices up there means anything to the problem, you're basically an Aspirin to a cancer patient,
which is still noble but...let's not over sell it, huh....

If I can do it, many others can too.
Oh the horror! One less 1080ti a year to buy, just to place food on someone elses plate..
Please....

Whatever friend, I still applaud you for volunteering, which is something I don't do, but I think perhaps treating the symptoms of the problem...while ignoring the causes of the
problem, is not much of a recipe for success.
 
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Donald Bell

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LOVE this example
I'll put this as nicely as I can to avoid being banned again.

The video is a complete mischaracterization of taxes in the United States. Maybe the tax code is that simple in Australia, where they made the video. If the rich guy's accountant was letting him pay $59 out of $100 in the US, assuming a 59% tax rate, that accountant would likely end up sued for malpractice. Income is transferred into assets, investments, holdings, etc to avoid paying that high personal tax rate. Tax accountants do everything they can to minimize a client's tax bill, using all legal remedies available. I've personally seen someone make $300k in personal income and have it transformed into $120k of taxable income, legally. Like I said earlier, the tax rate does not give you the full story, even when explained in beer money.

Math:
Assuming a tax rate of 59%, the taxes due on $300k is $177k. Let's say your accountant gets your taxable income down to $120k. 59% of $120k is $70,800.

Let's see how that looks compared to the original taxable income.
$70,800 is 23.6% of $300k.
 
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Youn

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What I learned was, drinking beer at your local pub is stupid, especially when you can afford to hop on a plane and drink wine in thailand, then have a fun night afterwards and screw those poor bastards in US they never gave good head anyways...
 

NKD

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LOVE this example



LOL just like Jared Kushner who paid 0 taxes hahaha. Its not really the rich that are working rich, like lets say you making 200k or what not. I think there are too many loopholes for some businesses and investors that they need to close. I am all good with Trump. But lets be real, the dude ain't going to show no one his taxes.

I never would complain if you paid fair taxes on what you made. But if you made millions and then devalued your properties by that much that's just some fucked up shit. HAHA.

Now its the fuckin congress. I think they have too many loopholes. I mean if you make millions you shouldn't be able to 0 that shit out. Common!
 

Burticus

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Plenty of Cali is empty desert and mountain region. Perfect low/no incoming housing. Conscript the homeless to build their own homes and infrastructure? Give them jobs and purpose and a place to live? No, it won't be in SF, deal with it. I'd also say Nevada has tons of empty real estate ready for development, but NV might not love having a couple million Cali homeless pop up overnight.

Throwing money directly at the homeless in terms of free food, temporary shelter, etc just grows the problem.

Look, I'm not an expert on how to deal with this problem. But if my current household income isn't enough to live in a place... I'm going to move to a different place. Not just throw up my hands and say "Aw shucks, kids, we tried. But we can't afford to live here, so on the streets we go". No, you move to where you can afford to live. Not rocket science. Only millionaires can afford to live in the Bay Area unless you have 8 roommates.
 

filip

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I'll put this as nicely as I can to avoid being banned again.

The video is a complete mischaracterization of taxes in the United States. Maybe the tax code is that simple in Australia, where they made the video. If the rich guy's accountant was letting him pay $59 out of $100 in the US, assuming a 59% tax rate, that accountant would likely end up sued for malpractice. Income is transferred into assets, investments, holdings, etc to avoid paying that high personal tax rate. Tax accountants do everything they can to minimize a client's tax bill, using all legal remedies available. I've personally seen someone make $300k in personal income and have it transformed into $120k of taxable income, legally. Like I said earlier, the tax rate does not give you the full story, even when explained in beer money.

Math:
Assuming a tax rate of 59%, the taxes due on $300k is $177k. Let's say your accountant gets your taxable income down to $120k. 59% of $120k is $70,800.

Let's see how that looks compared to the original taxable income.
$70,800 is 23.6% of $300k.

And there is still someone that gets a $9000 refund every year, you pay federal taxes they don't, they actually get money back from the government.
So the video is a little wrong, the guys that drink for free actually get paid to drink.

And you don't 0 out unless you have a business loss, meaning you lost money doing business.
If you are referring to corporations, they are owned by shareholders and get taxed twice, once on actual profits and then the shareholders pay tax on the investment they made.
 
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HockeyJon

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I do find it a bit bizarre that these tech CEOs seem to be fervently about wealth redistribution while simultaneously ensuring their accountants manipulate their tax base to dodge any resulting increases in their tax liability, going so far as to “relocate” to Ireland. Seems a bit disingenuous.
 
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Burticus

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OK let me put my drinking/thinking hat on for a moment. (drinks)

Forget the government. The richest people in America throw 1 or 2% of their total worth into a pot. Create a huge non-profit (tax deductible, of course), sort of like the Peace Corp, but more like Homeless Corp* (someone else come up with a better name, please, that one is terrible). Create missions for said people. Building infrastructure / low income housing. Provide aid to places that need it (hurricanes, famine, etc). Buy old Navy / cargo / cruise liner ships and ship these people to where the action is. Those that can work, will. Those that can't (disability, etc) can do administrative tasks, etc. Turn our nation's homeless into a huge working force for good!

I'm not un-serious, why couldn't this work? Take the government out of the loop, it's not the solution.

(drinks more)

Take the government out of the equation and why can't we solve this problem? Universal welfare doesn't seem like a great idea.

Edit - I said "richest people in America". Maybe we just narrow that down to everyone who makes over $5 Mil a year. And after that it should be open to anyone that WANTS to, after all it's tax deductible.

(drinks again) I think I said "government" too many times and now I will be targeted by NSA assassin drones.
 
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OpenSource

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My brother-in-law started a fairly large charity/organization to help with homeless problem with a large southeast metro area. I volunteered and help ran the events one weekend every month for 4 years. Every weekend we had groups go out give food, socks, hygiene products to those that were homeless.

One of the biggest things we noticed, is that a large portion of "homeless" are voluntarily homeless. We have had them be candid with us about it as well, they have plenty of places to sleep, plenty of food, some kept quite a bit of cash as well. In most urbanized areas, it wasn't that bad (to them) to be homeless.

I will also say that when giving out food having people constantly say, "I don't want PB&J sandwiches what else you got in there?" When giving out clothes.. they wanted to pick and choose... and rife thru the boxes we had because they don't like "this color"

Many were such ungrateful fucks vs the few that broke your heart about how appreciative they were.

For the area that we have served, it would be a waste for put most of these people up since you would be doing it until they're dead. Unless you put them in work programs where they only get free housing if they are completing strict requirements with job training, drug testing, etc this would be a huge waste of tax money.
 

NKD

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LOVE this example



yea only if the tax code was that simple. That is an example for the lazies lol! You think Jared Kushner had no taxes? ROFL! The system is broke. I don't even blame the people. I know someone who made 250k one year and paid 10k in taxes lol! Do I blame them? No! If someone knows they are going to have to pay legit taxes and they can't find any loopholes then they will simply pay the fair taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if congress has loopholes so they can use it themselves rofl!
 

Rob94hawk

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I'd comment but this whole topic falls under the 'Soap Box' forum & I don't feel like getting the ban hammer from Kyle again...
 

filip

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yea only if the tax code was that simple. That is an example for the lazies lol! You think Jared Kushner had no taxes? ROFL! The system is broke. I don't even blame the people. I know someone who made 250k one year and paid 10k in taxes lol! Do I blame them? No! If someone knows they are going to have to pay legit taxes and they can't find any loopholes then they will simply pay the fair taxes. I wouldn't be surprised if congress has loopholes so they can use it themselves rofl!

I am an accountant I do taxes, there are no loopholes there is a tax law, it is extensive and goes over every excruciating detail. You can check the IRS web site if you ever want to be bored out of your mind. Can you use the tax law to your advantage? Yes. There are many correct ways to file one tax return, one of them will give you the most benefit while the others wont but they will all be excepted by the IRS unless the IRS does not like something you did then regardless of the law you have to change what you have done to what they want.
So when they make new tax laws to collect money like they do in San Fransisco, they will get their money from whoever has it.
 

seanreisk

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I like to deal in rational truths.

1) The homeless problem needs to be solved (for the good of our communities).
2) Homelessness is a regional problem (it affects different cities differently).
3) Homelessness has direct ties to unemployability (whether by disability, mental illness, laziness, or even being too poor to seek employment).
4) Most areas that have a homeless problem have a cost of living that is burdensome (homelessness often exists in areas where the cost of living is high and the weather is temperate).
5) No one has a proven idea how to solve the problem (they really don't).

Agree or disagree with the points above, but in my opinion the starting point revolves around 5). You need to find out what will solve the homelessness problem in your area before you start trying to figure out how to gather a big pot of cash. Many people believe that money can solve a social problem*, but this is unproven if not false.



* On the other hand, if a person arrives at a social services center and says, "My family needs food and a place to live. I will accept whatever work you can find for me," we should always do our humane best to accommodate them.
 

haz_mat

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Many were such ungrateful fucks vs the few that broke your heart about how appreciative they were.

This is where I think you have your priorities mixed up. Are you helping to help or to just make yourself feel better for helping?
 

sirmonkey1985

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The median price of a single family home in SF is $1.61 million.

https://sf.curbed.com/2018/4/5/17201888/san-francisco-median-home-house-price-average-2018

For comparison's sake, my house is 1/10 the cost (built for a family of 4, so single family) and I make 1/2 the amount considered poverty in SF.

SF is it's own worst enemy.. there's no more land to build on there so the only way to add more housing to control prices is to build up, but most of the city is built on landfill and along with earthquake risks it's not possible to built up thus prices just continue to sky rocket..
 

rudy

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First note that sales force is one of the forces
Dude this isn't about generosity, it's about this equation: "When you help someone, how do you keep 10 others from showing up the next day asking for more help AS WELL as the first person who, more often than not, will simply ask...for more help".

That's the problem. Its not turning on the tap, it's knowing when to turn it off...and then that person becomes a Nazi to half of San Fransicso.

Yep this is true you have to think about what services you offer and how that compares to other places. There was a long time in Michigan where Michigan was known as the place to go to get all sorts of free shit. Bums would hitchhike or get on rail cars and move all the way across the country to live in Michigan and take advantage of the generosity.
 

Verge

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Good.

It's pretty damn awful right now in SF. Every day I'm there it seems someone else has moved on to the streets. And while the big SF tech companies continue to thrive, the poorer get screwed even more.

A few years back, SF even tried to fine all people living on the streets, and some times immediately arrest anyone caught snoozing on the side walks. This law was eventually disregarded.


I have a few friends who have owned mom and pop shop restaurants nearby some of these tech companies. Before they used to make a good buck from all the employees billowing on the streets for lunch time. And many times, employees would hand out cash to those in need. Now they've got these in house buffets, we are seeing less and less of these daily good deeds.


SF needs this assistance badly. But so does many other cities/areas.

Probably different here, but every single homeless person i've ever met was choosing to be homless(most had warrants or wanted to do drugs).

Shelter is at 1/3rd capacity.
 

wizzi01

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TLDR - Screw every one else but me!!

You're over paranoid.. enough said.

Instead of talking about it, do something.

As I don't like to boast, fuck it...
I donate over 100 hours a year of my time to feeding those in need of food. The biggest day coming up is on Thanksgiving where I donate a 8a to 11p shift in one of the local soup kitchens. I always throw a good grand or so on this day as it feeds roughly 700-800 people. How about you? Be a keyboard warrior all you want, it isn't doing anything in the real world.

Roughly 8-10% of my income goes to charitable causes, specifically to those relating to homeless shelters. How about yours?

And none of this goes on my taxes for write off purposes.

I've been very blessed with my life out in California and I've never taken it for granted. Don't assume shit until you know the facts.

If I can do it, many others can too.

Oh the horror! One less 1080ti a year to buy, just to place food on someone elses plate..

Please....

Lol last year I donated over $800 in coats and $300 to toys for tots. Oh yeah I had zero income last year. You can always live off of a lot less.
 

jedijeb13

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I just don't get $117k being low income or poverty, here that would be in the Rich category. A nice 3 or 4 bedroom house sells for $90-150k.

Higher property values are mostly set by the government assessing the value for tax purposes, so the high cost of housing there is mostly on the government's head and then they want to tax people to solve the problem they are mostly responsible for.

Hold elected officials responsible for spending the money they receive in taxes efficiently and responsibly and half the problems in society will be solved.
 

DukenukemX

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I would like to see them use that tax money to provide government supplied housing, to avoid the fuckery that is the housing market. I do expect the housing market to crash again, probably sometime in 2019, which would hit SF the hardest. But apartments and other rental property needs regulation to try and avoid the price gouging that's occurring as well.
 

NKD

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Probably different here, but every single homeless person i've ever met was choosing to be homless(most had warrants or wanted to do drugs).

Shelter is at 1/3rd capacity.

We all know homeless are the easiest to fall victim to drugs. That's not really hard news. There is always beginning to every story. I feel like that just another way to saying who cares lol.
 

jevans64

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I can only have a comfortable living in the South, so that's where I live. It seems like The Soylent Corporation ( from SciFi ) can start up a good program to combat homelessness in San Francisco.
 

pavementeater

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Unbridled capitalism is what gave us this problem. We need to operate our society on something other than greed. As long as we worship the almighty dollar as our God, this will continue to be a problem.
This is true with SF and now Oakland.
When you have rentals that were filled with middle class families and average person already paying a hefty price for their place and when their lease is up they find their selves facing a triple and in some cases X5 increase to keep their place.. This is why we are finding a lot of people out on the streets.
In 1996 I had a 3 bedroom Apartment in SF < Outer Richmond District> and it cost me $1150 a month . I had the place for 4 years but due to no rent control on my place the owner decided in one blow to jack up the rental price to 3500k that was in 2000 and now the unit is going for a bit over 6,000 a month.
SF is the best example of Capitalism running amok.
Sad thing is SF actually has a shit load of rentals & it has always had a lot of them , the main issue has been the lack of affordable rentals.
The rental laws in SF are more a smoke and mirrows and in other area's in the bay renal laws are non existent .

Anyone that says just move away and find a new job or place to live ... The cost to move from one location to another. Just to move from SF to Oakland or Sacramento will cost you 4-8k that's when you are doing it yourself . Most places here require first and last months rent + cleaning fee deposit . No normal person can just up and move.
 

NKD

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I would like to see them use that tax money to provide government supplied housing, to avoid the fuckery that is the housing market. I do expect the housing market to crash again, probably sometime in 2019, which would hit SF the hardest. But apartments and other rental property needs regulation to try and avoid the price gouging that's occurring as well.
housing market isn't crashing. can we go in recession sure! But this thing about housing market crashing is nonsense. The loans aren't the same loans anymore. Housing market crashed because of bad loans and shitty loans that lenders knew people couldn't afford 4-5 years down the road on shitty income.

I was right in the middle of it. Lenders approved anything and everything, it was a fire sale on loans. Now you don't see that.

Average income in my town is 75k vs 45k in 2006.

There are more jobs available then there are people to fill it.

Could the prices go flat? and not boom that high? Sure! But almost every research I have read says they will likely increase in California in major areas by 7 to 10% here.

The recession was caused by the mortgage crisis. That ain't happening anytime soon. These aren't the same bad loans. But I do know a lot of people wish for it though because they didn't get in on it when it crashed.

Problem with SF Is not housing prices, problem is they can't make anymore so they are only going to go up. And people have been hoarding them for ages. I know someone who bought a house there for 150k and sold it for 875k. lol.

Only thing they can do is rent control like new York does. But the thing is most of the people working in bay area especially for tech companies make bank though.

Its building more that they can't really do much of that is the real problem. So lot of people are buying in the valley, where I live and prices aren't bad for those people who are willing to commute to bay or have remote jobs.
 
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Decibel

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I have good friends that work with the needy in SF. The vast majority of the problem is not the working homeless, or even the capable of working but unemployed homeless - it is those that are incapable of working.

We owe this problem to the gutting of institutional care in the US.

These are people that should be in long term full time care, not people that should be scorned because they don't have jobs. They can't keep jobs. We are talking severe unmedicated and self medicated mental disease.

Then there are the cities and towns all over the country that give people one way bus tickets to Cali...
 

capt_cope

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So I'm confused. Are there people stupid enough to be making $117,000 a year (for a family of 4) who are homeless in SF? Because those people don't need money, they need a swift kick in the ass. If you're talking about people with legitimate mental health issues (IQ so low they can't be trained, PTSD, etc.) I agree they need help, but a tax refund (or even some stupid shelter) isn't going to cut it. We need to lose the stigma surrounding mental health in this country and start serving those who can't help themselves. That doesn't include the people capable of getting a job who are lazy, or (apparently) the people who have a damn good salary in most other parts of the country that want to live in a car where the weather doesn't suck. Pardon my french, but fuck those people. The AVERAGE household income in my state is ~$66,000. Ship the lazy fuckers here, they can probably afford to buy a house and quit shitting on the streets. Anyone else is going to be shitting on the streets whether or not SF taxes the rich.
 
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