Holy! Windows 7 is fasT!

heatlesssun

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I find it funny how people are saying that this phone has to be perfect. It just needs to do what people need and look good for a time and then there's the next big thing. This phone has that in spades.

After having worked with the developer tools it's really just a matter of time, there'll be thousands and thousands of apps in no time, hell it's just .NET and C#, tons of Windows desktop code will ALREADY work on this thing.

This is a work of art. The iPhone and Android are going to lose a few customers, not droves but a few.
 
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Vermillion

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I find it funny how people are saying that this phone has to be perfect. It just needs to do what people need and look good for a time and then there's the next big thing. This phone has that in spades.

After having worked with the developer tools it's really just a matter of time, there'll be thousands and thousands of apps in no time, hell it's just .NET and C#, tons of Windows desktop code will ALREADY work on this thing.

This is a work of art. The iPhone and Android are going to lose a few customers, not droves but a few.

Totally agree. MS is firing on all cylinders with Windows Phone 7. You will see people piss and moan about lack of Copy/Paste (which sucks) and because of that call Windows Phone 7 a failure. Funny how they all said that about iPhone as well. MS has already said that multi-tasking and Copy/Paste will be released in the future.

Only time will tell if this is a game changer though. There's a bunch of cool functionality in it that Android and iOS don't do.
 

Bahamut

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Looks great, as expected, and yes it's damned fast but, one would expect it to be so at this point in the development on that "target" Samsung device Microsoft is giving out to developers.

Let's hope the fire that got lit under Microsoft just as Bill Gates was stepping away doesn't get blown out anytime soon. It's pretty cool to see such changes in their direction - Windows 7 is awesome, Office 2010 kicks ass (talk about fast), and now Windows Phone 7 has some serious *umph* going for it too - so here's to them continuing full steam ahead.
 

heatlesssun

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If the phone fails, and to be honest I just don't see that happening, it wont be for lack of trying this time on Microsoft's part. There's a LOT of good stuff here, and as I've said the development tools might just be the best in the business.

It's not going to displace the iPhone and Android but it does offer a compelling choice. I have Zune Pass so I'm setting this device, pretty much a no brainer for those with Zune Pass.
 

Bahamut

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I did finally get a Zune HD a few months back, had it for what, 3 days then I sold it. Just wasn't "enough" for what I needed I suppose. My trusty Dell Axim X51v is still going strong, nearly 7 years old now, running WM6.5 without breaking a sweat, does everything I require (wish it had 11g wireless but whatever, 11b is everywhere anyway and fast enough for simple browsing on the go), etc etc.

I wouldn't mind replacing it with something with a bit more *umph* at some point but, so far... I have yet to find anything out there in the world of portable digital devices that does the job half as well. It just kicks ass from start to finish, and I firmly hope it lasts me a few more years... ;)

A nice Windows Phone 7 device that can do all the things I'd like done would be a very nice thing indeed.
 

Bohica69

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I think that because of the copy and paste and multi tasking it won't be as adopted as readily as it would be out of the gate. This will cause problems in gaining market share, which is exactly what MS needs to do out of the gate.
 

Vermillion

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I think that because of the copy and paste and multi tasking it won't be as adopted as readily as it would be out of the gate. This will cause problems in gaining market share, which is exactly what MS needs to do out of the gate.

They said the same about iPhone when it was first released. As long as MS doesn't wait an eternity to bring those items to the table in a future update it won't really matter.
 

Sean

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It is pretty fast. I'd can't wait to see a review on a production model with release software.
 

obs

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Looks great. The XNA platform for games development should be nice too. Here's hoping it's done right and gets some marketplace traction.
 

Ocellaris

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They said the same about iPhone when it was first released. As long as MS doesn't wait an eternity to bring those items to the table in a future update it won't really matter.

Microsoft is not Apple though. People will put up with that type of shit from Apple, however with MS they will just refuse to buy the phones. Windows Mobile was a complete wreck for many years and MS did little to improve upon it other than throw their hands in the air and have people wait for the next version. The next versions always came too late, did not bring all the improvements needed, and usually would not be release on whatever particular phone you had at the time (at least if felt like that).

In that time MS had people waiting around for things not to suck, they fell from an impressive 1st place in the smartphone market to last. So it definitely DOES matter that the phone are missing thing people want and not delivering on expected features. With MS launching WP7 already missing important features, it could be a steep uphill battle for them if they fail to gain initial traction.

MS burned a lot of bridges with customers and carriers over the last few years
 
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Bahamut

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Windows Mobile was a complete wreck for many years ...

A little out of context I suppose but, I have to ask: it was a complete wreck? Really? I never noticed, been using Windows Mobile and all its predecessors since the first PocketPC came out and I've never had any issues to speak of.

A complete wreck, eh... ok, if you say so.

NOT. :D
 

heatlesssun

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The multitasking isssue simply isn't one. I've been looking at the development tools and there's support to basiclly make things LOOK like they are multitasking while pervseing performance AND battery life and Driods are starting to run into a lot of battery issues. All a dev has to do is persist data in their app, it just simply isn't something that users will even notice.

Copy and paste I do see as a bigger issue but once again there are some very clean work arounds. I think what Microsoft did to make an end of year date is put those things on hold and do things others DON'T have. I'll take Zune over true multi-tasking all day long and Xbox folks, IF the Xbox integration is good, just haven't seen anything there, but if that's good, yeah, they'll wait on copy and paste. Where lack of copy and paste will hurt the most is with the Office tools, which are pretty good at this point it looks.

But this is just gorgeous and it should have two VERY compelling things that will sell it for at least now, Zune and Xbox, that's enough to get through to multi-tasking (which I don't think is necessary for this phone, there are BETTER ways to a lot of this stuff on a battery powered device) and copy and paste, which I do see as important but not a feature that many use anyway.
 
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heatlesssun

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WinMo 5 & 6 on phones simply wasn't well integrated with the hardware. And look, it had copy and paste AND multitasking YEARS before the iPhone and Android were even around. Look how much good it did.

Microsoft has done its work in this guys. If they REALLY thought that multitasking and copy and paste were critical they'd wait a bit but they simply said we can do these these and screw everything else up or we can get our unique features and capabilities out the door sooner. Really most Droid phones don't TOUCH this thing for UI beauty and speed. That's FAR more important than multitasking which doesn't really matter for well built apps or copy and paste.

They made the call they had to.
 

Neurofreeze

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I think the big factor will be platform homogeneity. MS is already planning significant changes in the first update (copy/paste, 3rd party multitasking), and while that sounds nice, it also creates an issue of getting everyone updated. That's what a lot of developers complain about with Android. You got 1.5/1.6 people either not updating or simply being unable to update due to their manufacturer being lazy, then there's 2.0/2.1, now the upcoming 2.2 Froyo.

Somehow Apple, on the other hand, has gotten its users trained like Pavlov's dog into craving every tiny update as soon as it comes out.

The big difference comes down to consumer perception. Apple customers believe that bug fixes and features that should've been there from the start being added later for free is the greatest boon ever bestowed. WinMo and droid customers believe that the same bug/feature fixes should've been expected from initial release. IE. Apple customers feel grateful for any updates. WinMo/Droid customers feel entitled to updates.
 

Bahamut

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The big difference comes down to consumer perception. Apple customers believe that bug fixes and features that should've been there from the start being added later for free is the greatest boon ever bestowed. WinMo and droid customers believe that the same bug/feature fixes should've been expected from initial release. IE. Apple customers feel grateful for any updates. WinMo/Droid customers feel entitled to updates.

QFMFT. And brilliantly stated, to boot... ;)
 

Ocellaris

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Somehow Apple, on the other hand, has gotten its users trained like Pavlov's dog into craving every tiny update as soon as it comes out.

The big difference comes down to consumer perception. Apple customers believe that bug fixes and features that should've been there from the start being added later for free is the greatest boon ever bestowed. WinMo and droid customers believe that the same bug/feature fixes should've been expected from initial release. IE. Apple customers feel grateful for any updates. WinMo/Droid customers feel entitled to updates.

Consumer perception is not the issue, the problem is fragmentation. Keep in mind that when Apple releases a firmware updates, almost anyone with a current phone can get the update without a problem. For example iOS 4.0.1 is available for iPhone 3G, 3GS, and 4. That covers pretty much everyone under a contract and lets them get the update immediately. This helps make for happy customers, and makes it much easier for developers when you are shooting at less target platforms. Even though the updates do not enable multitasking on some older hardware, people are still happy to get the update.

Now go look at Android where there is a mess of 1.x and 2.x devices on the market which have different form factors and screens. People still running 1.5 or 1.6 are left scratching their heads and wondering why some apps do not work for them and why they cannot get the new version of the OS. Carriers keep selling phones with a mix of old and new OS versions, and Motorola is launching a phone soon (i1) that still runs *1.5*. Developers have to to make some hard decisions on what version of the OS they want to target.

When companies want to sell these things as smart phones, it is important that they can all run the latest apps.

The best thing that MS could do here would be to work out a system where any 7 series phone would be able to install WP7 OS updates.
 

heatlesssun

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When companies want to sell these things as smart phones, it is important that they can all run the latest apps.

This is where Microsoft will do well because of the nature of Silverlight AND .NET. Very much platform agonostic and both very backwards AND forwards compatible. Plus Microsoft is refereing the hardware MUCH better than Google. Microsoft's not going to allow people to just slap Win Mo 7 on a device and call it a day.
 

Bahamut

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The best thing that MS could do here would be to work out a system where any 7 series phone would be able to install WP7 OS updates.

I think that's the general idea behind how they're working with WP7 and OEMs this time out. With previous versions of WM, they'd just create the base ROM image, then offer that to OEMs that would customize the hell out of it but very rarely change the base image, aka they added to it with specific customization for the given device they planned to use it on.

This time, with WP7, Microsoft laid down the law (so to speak) and said if you're planning to do a WP7-based product, here's what it must have and how it must operate (the 3 button thing, etc). They set requirements beforehand and then told OEMs if you can fit these requirements, we'll work with you, but if you're planning some oddball contraption with 5+ buttons, etc etc, forget it, don't waste our time.

It's obvious they've gone back to the drawing board with WP7, and I have high hopes for it. I am somewhat disappointed that there's absolutely no backwards compatibility for all the WM software I've acquired over the years but, that's progress. A clean fresh start has apparently helped this time out. I just finished downloading the WP7 developer tools and installing them, so now let's go play around for a bit and see what's improved since the CTP build...

And I still have my X51v anyway... ;)
 

Daggah

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Hey ocellaris...

It doesn't count when the OS update cripples the phone (iOS 4.0.x and the iPhone 3G)
 

badcaps

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I find it funny how people are saying that this phone has to be perfect. It just needs to do what people need and look good for a time and then there's the next big thing. This phone has that in spades.

After having worked with the developer tools it's really just a matter of time, there'll be thousands and thousands of apps in no time, hell it's just .NET and C#, tons of Windows desktop code will ALREADY work on this thing.

This is a work of art. The iPhone and Android are going to lose a few customers, not droves but a few.

IAWTP. 100%.

This product looks good inside and out. Very exciting addition to the market.
 

phide

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Looks pretty snappy. The performance of pinch & zoom was excellent. I do have some concerns how about readability in what looks like numerous low contrast scenarios where there's a bright background image behind white text — that won't be pleasant to deal with in outdoor lighting. The UI could stand a little color coordination as well, I think, because the simple monochrome icons and text on tiles that are identically colored might be a little annoying (it also looks a little weird).

From a distance, the UI looks solid. I need some hands-on time to get a clearer picture, though.
 

Bahamut

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As heatless pointed out in the News forum thread about what Windows 7 needs to succeed, the developer tools are fun to mess around with even if you're not serious about being a developer. At least you get a look at how things will work or at least what the basis is they're working from.

You can find 'em here:

http://developer.windowsphone.com/windows-phone-7/

And yeah, the WP7 emulator is pretty cool. Kinda wish I did have a tablet again so I could use the touch ability... ;)
 

Bahamut

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And an update on Engadget's review, they've had a chance to sit down with Microsoft's Joe Belfiore, corporate VP of Windows Phone, so...

http://www.engadget.com/2010/07/19/exclusive-interview-with-joe-belfiore-corporate-vp-of-windows-p/

He does touch on multitasking, with an explanation of the hows and whys which is more than enough for me and makes sense in how they're implementing it. 3rd party apps can do some things in the background but they don't implicitly run by default - he mentions Pandora as an example and that it will not work "out of the gate" and then further compares it to how the iPhones didn't allow multitasking till just recently.

He points out:

Joe Belfiore said:
Not having the ability to play Pandora music in the background didn't prevent the iPhone from getting a lot of growth...

And there you have it. Good stuff I suppose, more info is better than nothing at all. ;)
 

Bahamut

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Good interview. Nice to see a little honesty out of a company that works on phones!

As soon as I read that this came to mind:

daffyduckrobinhood.gif


Applicable? Definitely... :)
 

PNut12345

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Hey ocellaris...

It doesn't count when the OS update cripples the phone (iOS 4.0.x and the iPhone 3G)

Thank you.

As has been mentioned, the WP7 hardware requirements are laid out across the board: meet those and you can make a WP7. Don't meet 'em, ya can't. This allows for different manufacturers to all play on a level field.

Apple customer support just earned MS a pre-order for a 7. The fucking bitch laughed at me...:mad:
 

oldpablo

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Having used Windows Mobile for years, the platform was just fine. What wasn't fine was peoples expectation of it. I rely heavily on exchange and office for work and WinMo is the best platform for that. They kept the basics the same for backwards compatibility. It was more a business mans phone and it did very well for that. They are merely going after a different market now after putting minimal effort into the previous platform for the average person.
 

heatlesssun

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Having used Windows Mobile for years, the platform was just fine. What wasn't fine was peoples expectation of it. I rely heavily on exchange and office for work and WinMo is the best platform for that. They kept the basics the same for backwards compatibility. It was more a business mans phone and it did very well for that. They are merely going after a different market now after putting minimal effort into the previous platform for the average person.

Exactly. Microsoft never got WinMo up to consumer level standards and expectations. Since I think 99% of what people do on phones is stupid time wasting and productive stuff anyway, I never felt the urge to get an iPhone or Droid. Indeed the #1 killer feature on my Touch Pro 2 is the speaker phone, which it FAR more important to me than a bunch of mostly time wasting apps, I waste enough time on this forum!

But 7 is almost most toally consumer oriented. I look forward to having Zune on my phone in the coming months.
 

oldpablo

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Exactly. Microsoft never got WinMo up to consumer level standards and expectations. Since I think 99% of what people do on phones is stupid time wasting and productive stuff anyway, I never felt the urge to get an iPhone or Droid. Indeed the #1 killer feature on my Touch Pro 2 is the speaker phone, which it FAR more important to me than a bunch of mostly time wasting apps, I waste enough time on this forum!

But 7 is almost most toally consumer oriented. I look forward to having Zune on my phone in the coming months.

Damn I love the speakerphone on my TP2, I use it for con calls all the time. I'll be honest, I'm skeptical about liking WP7 since I could care less about social networking and pictures and stuff, but I do heavily use business features and listen to audiobooks so hopefully I can set it up the way I like it.
 

SamuraiInBlack

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Moto Q9c user here with WM 6.1, so i'm familiar with the soon to be previous platform somewhat. do I like it? yes. do I like the fact that motorola or sprint won't do a 6.5 update? no.

I like my copy and paste. I use it often. I like multi-tasking. I do it a lot with this phone when the hardware is willing. (seriously motorola, you assclowns neutered the shit out of this phone!)

all I can say is, give me a phone that meets or exceeds the iphone and/or select android phones out of box, or i'm just going with an android phone. at the very least, give me a phone that still does what the previous windows mobile platform was capable of doing.

there's no excuse to lack features that your competition has already implemented via updates, not to mention previous versions of your phone OS have had them. none.

I don't care if it will be more like the zune interface. I don't care if the phone is actually a robot in disguise and can act as my pocket secretary. if it can't do certain things that I make use of that my phone can do now, then why should I buy one?
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heatlesssun

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there's no excuse to lack features that your competition has already implemented via updates, not to mention previous versions of your phone OS have had them. none.

Sure there is, people simply don't use that stuff much on phones. I'm not saying that I it shouldn't be there but its more important to get the phone one the door and in peoples and developers hands than it is to finish a feature that isn't used by as most people and there are better ways to implement some of that functionality anyway.

For me Zune is FAR more important than copy and paste as it's the main reason I'm getting a Win 7 Phone. As long as it doesn't take two years like Apple (and it didn't bother the iPhone did it?) and hopefully a lot less that will be fine for most users. This phone has so many other things going for it that it a minor issue.
 

SamuraiInBlack

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Sure there is, people simply don't use that stuff much on phones. I'm not saying that I it shouldn't be there but its more important to get the phone one the door and in peoples and developers hands than it is to finish a feature that isn't used by as most people and there are better ways to implement some of that functionality anyway.

For me Zune is FAR more important than copy and paste as it's the main reason I'm getting a Win 7 Phone. As long as it doesn't take two years like Apple (and it didn't bother the iPhone did it?) and hopefully a lot less that will be fine for most users. This phone has so many other things going for it that it a minor issue.

people don't need 200k fart apps and similarly useless things, but there's still a crowd that uses them. however I will agree that getting a working product out the door asap is a good idea. I just wish it wouldn't be at the cost of dealbreaking features that I actually make use of. even if it isn't implemented at launch, i'm not going to sit and wait for it to be a reality. it didn't bother iphone users to not have certain features because half are brand whores and shiny-thing lovers, the other half being people who actually use the phone for what they need it for as it fits their needs. (case in point, one of my coworkers has a 3G that is almost full of stupid apps that he hardly uses; he got them because they were ten minutes of amusement at best. ironically, he was frustrated with not being able to copy and paste until the update with it happened, and my mocking of him for it. another coworker is still working on getting everything together to start developing apps with his, and it also has the apps he uses daily as is.)

don't get me wrong. I would love to have a win7 phone myself. from what i've seen and heard, its totally amazing and definitely sounding like something worth waiting for. but not if its going the "we'll get to x feature when we feel like caring" route that seems to be going around the smartphone platform devs. sorry, but I don't put faith in promises.
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heatlesssun

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don't get me wrong. I would love to have a win7 phone myself. from what i've seen and heard, its totally amazing and definitely sounding like something worth waiting for. but not if its going the "we'll get to x feature when we feel like caring" route that seems to be going around the smartphone platform devs. sorry, but I don't put faith in promises.
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Microsoft is simply behind and playing catch up in phones. They simply don't have the luxury right now to wait. I'm sure they figured that text get dogged on copy and paste and multitasking and decided to wait to get that stuff straight wasn't the right call at this point and I don't see how they could've gone past this year and not had 7 Phone out they door.

And sure I understand that you don't trust promises but it's obvious they're going to put copy and paste into 7 Phone it's just a matter of when but I bet it's not later than Q1 2011.
 

hirouter

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i would like to get it ~~ have a try , do not know wheather it is great or not .........
 

oldpablo

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If you watch the video linked earlier, the reason they aren't doing multitasking out of the gate on third-party apps is that they don't want to risk stability till the platform has been out awhile and third-party developers have time to "get it right." The MS components will multi-task out of the gate though, if not all then most. To me, someone that was not happy about the whole multi-tasking thing being "gone", that sounds reasonable and logical.
 
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