A point most of those people miss, is that if these cars are that complicated to service, what does that say for assembling them? There are plenty of people right here on these forums that never miss an opportunity to denigrate (union) auto line workers as overpaid, stupid, lazy people only fit to use a screwdriver.
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High-tech Cars Pose Trouble for Some Mechanics
- Thread starter HardOCP News
- Start date
They are built by robots. I watched a guy get paid 50 bucks an hour to grab a robotic arm a point it in the general direction of the vehicle chassis. The robot moved forward, grabbed something, and screwed in 4 or 5 bolts all at the same time. A monkey could do this job. Or a few extra sensors and the robot could do it itself.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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Whats your point? Assembly is easier than diagnosing and repairing.
This part is easy to solve. Show videos of Chinese cars in crash tests. I gaurantee that even the stingiest cheap ass will change his mind about buying that Chinese part when he sees how well a Chinese car holds together in a crash.
f00k that. I'm a cheap bastard and will often buy the cheapest item I can find, but that's because I don't reply on those things for the safety of my children and myself.
And on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have GM "Docker Days" where they take the engineers that designed these cars and put them on the line so that they can get feedback from the guys putting them together. More often than not, those engineers come out and immediately change the way certain components are tied together for assembly to bring down assembly time, complexity, and cost. Robots and/or monkeys would not be able to give feedback to said engineers to help make things better, would they?
For every "I saw Bubba Dipshit gittin' paid $50/hr just to hit a button!" story there is a highly skilled, highly trained, highly educated person on that same line making sure that everything is going together so that Soccer Mom can roll aimlessly down the road on her cell phone, popping DVD's into the head unit while her kids try to disassemble the car with a spork all while forgetting that she hasn't changed her oil in 25K and never understanding why her vehicle makes all kinds of weird rackets while driving.
The times when cars were made by robots is gone. Toyota showed the entire industry that robots can not diagnose and fix problems on the line. It's even worse, when a robot is making a mistake it just keeps making the same mistake over and over. The specialized workers are necessary. I personally think the union bashers are just bitter because they don't have any loyal co-workers who have their backs. Combine that with a gross misunderstanding of free trade, where they somehow believe that letting corporations do anything they want and break any law they want is free trade, and we have the tea bagger troll.
You can make a cogent argument that car manufacturers are a type of monopoly due to the "barriers of entry". It costs a lot (understatement) of money to start a car manufacturing / dealership network and this creates a closed (not free) market. Because the market is not free we have to have regulation to free it up. It's funny that the same people that will harp on about capitalism and free trade really just use these words to mean "let corporations do whatever they want even breaking already existing laws".
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Not to get too far of topic, but there is not one single UAW worker in the USA making $50.00 per hour. ...none...not one
The average wage is $28 and change, with the high end being $32.00..and the $32.00
is for the machine repair techs
Starting wage as we speak is still about $15.00 per hour.
Total compensation cost to the employer is another story, and is easily over $50.00 per hour.
But that compensation number includes pension and benefits for old retired employees and should never be added into the current employees numbers. Just saying, if we're going to try to correct the massive amounts of misinformation about unions being spoon-fed to us by the very people who want to kill all the unions.
wow
just think for a minute, that makes absolutely no sense
the complexity of the system has practically no relation to the skill needed for working on the assembly line to manufacture it
Manaknight
Supreme [H]ardness
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and with that... i weep for the tuning community. Looks like i'm stuck to 2000 and older honda/toyota cars.
i like being able to look at an engine and know what everything does.
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I agree 100%....just didn't want to stray too far of topic..
I gave up trying..
xX_Jack_Carver_Xx
2[H]4U
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You can't have an argument with a dinningroom table.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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$28 / hr is too much for that kind of skillset/labor.
sweetreddyd
Limp Gawd
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This is complete BS. When I took my SRT - 4 to the dealership, it came back with the turbocharger wastegate unhooked, two heat shields missing, AN OIL LINE DISCONNECTED FROM THE TURBOCHARGER, the windshield wiper sprayers broken, and of course, they 'couldn't find the problem' which ended up being a broken downstream O2 sensor. Thanks 'tech' but I'll go ahead and state I'll be doing my own car work from now on, you couldn't pay me to bring my vehicle to one of you mongloids, and the government DOES need to crack down on the BS you pull.
'Highly trained' to rip people off maybe.
How do you come to that conclusion?
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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Common sense?
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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thats about 60K a year. more than cops and most teachers. Yeah, too much.
Well, you should make plenty of money then with that "common sense" of yours. Probably overpaid as well.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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When my company goes out of business from all of us overpaid employees unionizing and demanding pay/benefits beyond the value we bring to the company, then we can talk. Until then, ill assume im paid what I am worth because my company can fire me at any time.
I bet you just another white collar worker who nurses a hatred of unions and any non-college educated person making more than minimum wage. Unfortunately there seems to be quite a few here with your attitude.
I'd wager that it's not that he hates union workers but that he recognizes the problems the Unions themselves have caused.
As far as the problems new cars are causing...it sounds like mechanics should think about changing their business models.
Monkey God
Mangina Full of Sand
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I dont have a college education. Ive worked blue collar jobs. Ive worked plenty of shit jobs for minimum wage or not much better. $28/hr is a FAR cry from minimum wage. Over dramatize much? Now I hate ordinary workers? NO. And I'm sorry if you get all butt hurt because I dont think manual labor/easily trained jobs aren't worth $28 an hour. Its called an opinion. Re: unions, I dont hate them, but they do more harm then good. The 19th century called, it wants your engine of social justice back.
Yes, and we all know that people can live confortably on minimun wage. I would bet you haven't spent much time on an assembly line. I am not tring to put you down But there is alot of specialized training that goes into the training of assembly workers.
Sure you can look at assembly workers and say wow it sure is easy to do their job. But that is in my opinion a big misconception. It's easy to say the job is easy when everything is running smoothly or when you think that all they do is push a button. I know that companies spend alot of money on training and keeping their employees up on new machinery when it comes out, computer training, and the most important in my opinion Quality Standards.
Training costs make the employees valued. You have good workers that can recognize quality concerns, how to fix things, and keep the machines running and producing product making the company money. 28/hr is change compared to downtime and training costs to get a new employee up and going and to the level of a experienced worker.
Sure I don't agree with all the things unions do and stand for. But I do realize that just because your on an assembly line doesn't mean you should be overlooked in terms of pay because someone thinks your job is easy because it doesn't require a 4 year degree. I seen to many people with an education that can't do the simplest of jobs effficiently.
cocheese256
Gawd
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There are many forms of education out there. Just because one does not have nice piece of paper that says they have been "educated" does not imply they do not have the ability work properly and efficiently. I graduated from college. To say that I did not learn and grow from that experience would be an out right lie. However, when it comes to my job and becoming a more efficient worker in all situations, I learned much, much more with experience than I did from a text book. I am still learning and will be until the day I die. I have worked with many people that did not even finish high school but they are excellent at what they do and they make good money. Do not get me wrong I am not knocking "formal education", I still think it is important. I am suggesting that the education taken from a classroom is merely the starting point to knowledge not the ending.
An idiot that graduates from school,
is only an educated idiot.
An idiot that graduates from school,
is only an educated idiot.
I worked for Polaris on the engine lines for about 3 years. If you have a 2 stroke Polaris engine from 2000-2001 or a Victory motorcycle from 2002, more than likely I worked on the engine. I worked in the seats department in 2004 for about 6 months also.
I know that it isn't identical to cars, but we were non-union and wanted to stay that way. Most of us on the line knew that if we unionized the both the company and the workers would lose. When you are trying to stay competitive in the world market, all of the bullshit that a union brings is enough to stop a company from being able to keep costs down and stay price competitive. On top of that, paying union fees and going on strike, fuck that crap.
With assembly line work, every worker has to pull their own weight. The line can only move as fast as the slowest worker. So when someone isn't pulling their weight anymore, the company needs to be able to fire that person. Or if a person has a higher than normal fuck up rate.
I'm sorry, but in this day and age most unions (including the automotive unions) are nothing but a joke. All they do is slow things down and IMHO make the hard workers suffer to benefit the bad workers. The big 3 need to pack up and move to "right to work" states. As long as they are bogged down by the unions, they won't be able to be able to be as cost competitive as they could be.
BTW, working on the Polaris engine line back then you would make $11.50-$14.50+ an hour. Way above minimum wage at the time. IMHO $28 an hour is too high to be the average pay for working on the line. I highlighted average pay for a reason, there is nothing wrong with paying some of the line workers that much, some of the people are the good and are worth it; but that as an average pay is insane.
I know that it isn't identical to cars, but we were non-union and wanted to stay that way. Most of us on the line knew that if we unionized the both the company and the workers would lose. When you are trying to stay competitive in the world market, all of the bullshit that a union brings is enough to stop a company from being able to keep costs down and stay price competitive. On top of that, paying union fees and going on strike, fuck that crap.
With assembly line work, every worker has to pull their own weight. The line can only move as fast as the slowest worker. So when someone isn't pulling their weight anymore, the company needs to be able to fire that person. Or if a person has a higher than normal fuck up rate.
I'm sorry, but in this day and age most unions (including the automotive unions) are nothing but a joke. All they do is slow things down and IMHO make the hard workers suffer to benefit the bad workers. The big 3 need to pack up and move to "right to work" states. As long as they are bogged down by the unions, they won't be able to be able to be as cost competitive as they could be.
BTW, working on the Polaris engine line back then you would make $11.50-$14.50+ an hour. Way above minimum wage at the time. IMHO $28 an hour is too high to be the average pay for working on the line. I highlighted average pay for a reason, there is nothing wrong with paying some of the line workers that much, some of the people are the good and are worth it; but that as an average pay is insane.
hardware_failure
[H]ard|Gawd
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- 1,370
Yes, I meant it as a joke, particularly as an "indicator of public perception."Profound statement.
Im sure with your uber skills of slapping together PCs in 30 mins
If someone were to start from square one, car mechanics are greatly underrated and PC hardware is greatly overrated (difficulty wise) especially when you compare todays standards to 20 years ago.
Personally, I kinda miss the old hardware days where a certain level of social darwinism applied and not just any 10 year old could put a PC together.
Please don't encourage big corporations to pack up and move to "right to work" states. They'll fail in a couple of years of moving here due to the lack of qualified employees, no tax incentives for business and greedy politicians who demand palms greased for any major undertaking. Ask GM about that back 10 years ago when Mesa wanted backdoor bucks for a huge Tech Center they planned out here. Would have meant 1000 well paying jobs (relatively)...oh well.
Lower wages equals lower personal and sales tax revenues which starve public services such as schools which in my state consistently come in near or at the bottom of the list. We already have too many WalMart employees and empty houses nobody can afford to buy. That's what you get when you have no bargaining power and a work force that puts up with abuse because it's the norm.
The highest paid employees in my state, AZ are...wait for it....
Lawyers!
Ahead of Doctors and everyone else at an average of 65/hr (REMEMBER it's an AVERAGE and I pulled it from the preliminary jobs report for AZ 2009) median income is less than 30K per person/year for everybody else right now.
That's what right to work does for you. BTW the correct term is (At Will) it's in the state constitution and all it means is that you DON'T have to join a union to get a job in this state.
So for god's sake, let the independent shop have access to the same stuff the dealers do. Everybody has a right to make money off their talents without a corporate tax or bogus trade secret argument attached. Especially when the alternative is the quality of most of the dealer techs out here who start at 12/'hr BTW.
Wrench
[H]F Junkie
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- Sep 9, 2004
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- 10,853
Ok 1st off indies have access to all equipment, knowledgebase, and programming, and training that dealerships do. Again the problem is they don't want to pay for it. Dealers also have to pay for all the same things nothing is provided for free.So for god's sake, let the independent shop have access to the same stuff the dealers do. Everybody has a right to make money off their talents without a corporate tax or bogus trade secret argument attached. Especially when the alternative is the quality of most of the dealer techs out here who start at 12/'hr BTW.
As to green unexperienced fresh out of trade school techs yes $12 an hour is going to be roughly the norm. They aren't worth much they have no experience and require hands on training still. Sr techs make more. Our pay scale sucks ass google automotive flatrate pay. The reason this industry lacks many goood techs is the pay.
Posted via [H] Mobile Device
Unions are a joke now, they only care about protecting their bottom line by increasing their membership and covering the good and bad employees in an army of rules. I've had plenty of direct experience there.
My first professional job the engineers were non-union and the techs were union. If the engineers needed something moved from one lab to another they'd have to wait for a union tech to show up and do it. To carry a damn part. You'd have a whole team of engineers standing around doing nothing while waiting for a tech to be available to move a part.
How does that help anyone but the union? The company gets screwed, they pass the costs on the to customer.. yah works great huh?
I've also seen plenty of people that needed to be shown the door sit around and do crossword puzzles all day.
On topic, the car companies are just screwing everyone with these proprietary systems. For the dealer tech who said only his training could allow him to do this work, I call bull. I've known plenty of well trained techs at independent shops that could do the work (I've also known plenty that employee the idiots with no education either). I would never take a vehicle to the dealer for work I had to pay for. I took in my pathfinder to the dealer for a recall repair last year. They wrote up $3,000 in work they said HAD to be done, including such crap as $60 to change the air filter. I took care of that for $6 then took the care to my mechanic to check for the rest, only one thing actually needed to be done and it cost $80. Trust dealer techs? Never, they're almost as much of a scam as the salespeople.
My first professional job the engineers were non-union and the techs were union. If the engineers needed something moved from one lab to another they'd have to wait for a union tech to show up and do it. To carry a damn part. You'd have a whole team of engineers standing around doing nothing while waiting for a tech to be available to move a part.
How does that help anyone but the union? The company gets screwed, they pass the costs on the to customer.. yah works great huh?
I've also seen plenty of people that needed to be shown the door sit around and do crossword puzzles all day.
On topic, the car companies are just screwing everyone with these proprietary systems. For the dealer tech who said only his training could allow him to do this work, I call bull. I've known plenty of well trained techs at independent shops that could do the work (I've also known plenty that employee the idiots with no education either). I would never take a vehicle to the dealer for work I had to pay for. I took in my pathfinder to the dealer for a recall repair last year. They wrote up $3,000 in work they said HAD to be done, including such crap as $60 to change the air filter. I took care of that for $6 then took the care to my mechanic to check for the rest, only one thing actually needed to be done and it cost $80. Trust dealer techs? Never, they're almost as much of a scam as the salespeople.
I don't even know where to start with this train wreck of a postPlease don't encourage big corporations to pack up and move to "right to work" states. They'll fail in a couple of years of moving here due to the lack of qualified employees, no tax incentives for business and greedy politicians who demand palms greased for any major undertaking. Ask GM about that back 10 years ago when Mesa wanted backdoor bucks for a huge Tech Center they planned out here. Would have meant 1000 well paying jobs (relatively)...oh well.
Lower wages equals lower personal and sales tax revenues which starve public services such as schools which in my state consistently come in near or at the bottom of the list. We already have too many WalMart employees and empty houses nobody can afford to buy. That's what you get when you have no bargaining power and a work force that puts up with abuse because it's the norm.
The highest paid employees in my state, AZ are...wait for it....
Lawyers!
Ahead of Doctors and everyone else at an average of 65/hr (REMEMBER it's an AVERAGE and I pulled it from the preliminary jobs report for AZ 2009) median income is less than 30K per person/year for everybody else right now.
That's what right to work does for you. BTW the correct term is (At Will) it's in the state constitution and all it means is that you DON'T have to join a union to get a job in this state.
So for god's sake, let the independent shop have access to the same stuff the dealers do. Everybody has a right to make money off their talents without a corporate tax or bogus trade secret argument attached. Especially when the alternative is the quality of most of the dealer techs out here who start at 12/'hr BTW.
I'd love to see your proof that greedy politicians demand greased palms. Also, to say there's a lack of quality employees is laughable considering a greater freedom from undeserving employees. By ditching unions the auto manufacturers won't be burdened by the very thing that is dragging them down.
GM's Tech Center has been in Mesa for much much longer than 10 years. They moved because of increased urban sprawl and the availability of better environments to test their HVAC systems by eliminating downtime during the winter months. It had NOTHING to do with backdoor bucks. GM also wanted to take advantage of the housing boom to recoup the vast amount of money they were hemmoraging every year.
http://subscribers.wardsauto.com/ar...scribers.wardsauto.com/ar/gm_proving_arizona/
GM May Sell Arizona Proving Ground Property
By Scott Anderson
WardsAuto.com, May 2, 2006 9:42 AM
General Motors Corp. is shopping around its 3,200-acre (1,295-ha) Phoenix-area proving grounds to real estate brokers as the cash-strapped auto maker looks to take advantage of the regions lucrative real estate prices.
With 130 employees and 70 miles (113 km) of test track, GMs Desert Proving Ground in Mesa, 20 miles (32 km) east of Phoenix, is the second-largest proving site GM operates in North America.
Milford Proving Ground, about 50 miles (80 km) outside of Detroit, is GMs other main testing facility, with 4,000 acres (1,619 ha), 4,500 employees and 140 miles (225 km) of vehicle test roads.
GM's Desert Proving Ground
A GM spokesman tells Wards residential and commercial construction continues to flourish in the Phoenix metro area, with some development brushing up against the property lines of the proving grounds. As a result, Arizona property values are going in the same direction as the states exploding population.
The price of the property has really increased over the years, thats why we wanted to tell employees we were looking at the potential of selling it, says the spokesman, adding GM has been ramping down operations at the site since 2000.
In fact, GM originally announced plans to close the Mesa site in 2000 because the climate was not considered warm enough. Initial plans to move to Mezcala, Mexico, were scrapped two months later.
The spokesman did not venture an estimate on the potential value of the property.
Three years ago, GM sold an 1,800-acre (728-ha) slice of the Mesa proving ground property to a developer, which continues to lease the land back to GM.
Related Stories
Not Hot Enough for GM
The proving grounds, used by GM since 1953, contain traditional test tracks, as well as rougher off-road courses to challenge vehicles under extreme heat conditions.
Even if GM sells the property quickly, it could take at least two to three years to relocate the testing operations.
The spokesman says GM hasnt settled on a new location but most likely will retain a presence in a more rural portion of the arid Southwest.
In addition to Mesa and Milford, GM operates major testing centers and proving grounds in Canada, the U.K., Germany, Brazil, Australia and South Korea. It also is developing a new proving ground site in China.
GM is nott the only OEM unloading desert real estate.
DaimlerChrysler AGs 5,500-acre (2,226-ha) proving grounds, also in Arizona, fetched $312 million from a consortium of developers that bought up the property in January. The transaction made for the largest real estate deal in Arizona history, developers said at the time.
A spokeswoman for the German auto maker says selling the Phoenix-area property and moving those operations elsewhere will help keep a lid on confidential product testing and development, which was growing more difficult given the encroachment of residential and commercial growth.
Chrysler Group, which employs about 100 people at the Arizona grounds, will continue to operate there through 2008. The company has not selected a new site for desert testing but does have test facilities in Texas. Chryslers other large proving site is in Chelsea, MI, with 3,850 acres (1,558 ha) and more than 600 employees.
Volkswagen of America Inc. announced last fall it was evaluating alternative sites for its Arizona Proving Grounds, in Maricopa, as urban sprawl is encroaching on the 1,500-acre (648-ha) site.
A spokesman says it was not so much an issue of size but the need to be more isolated that has sparked a search for a new home for the high-speed oval, road course and off-road track and office space for 150 personnel.
A new site also would need a cold-weather facility, room for components to bake in the sun, the ability to test for water and salt damage, laboratory space for analysis and a maintenance area.
VW has used the Maricopa site since 1993.
Ford Motor Co. last year invested $10 million to re-launch its 3,400-acre (1,376-ha) Volvo Arizona Proving Grounds, and renovations are under way to the Dearborn Proving Ground.[/quote]
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0327goldwater0327.html
Really? Because census data says otherwise:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/elections/keyraces/census/az/
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/04000.html
New census data will come out next year but according to the last data Lawers were NOT the highest paid in employees. On average dentists made $30k more as did most of the rest of the medical field and I know for a fact that software engineers now leaped to the top of that list:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call2azboth.html
Actually, all shops DO have access to the same stuff dealers do. The big question is whether or not they want to invest in the software and tools. The man who does all of my car's tuning has access to everything Ford does and he works out of a shop on his private property. It's not that small shops don't have access to this software it's that they don't want to invest in it.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/0327goldwater0327.html
Really? Because census data says otherwise:
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/elections/keyraces/census/az/
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/04000.html
New census data will come out next year but according to the last data Lawers were NOT the highest paid in employees. On average dentists made $30k more as did most of the rest of the medical field and I know for a fact that software engineers now leaped to the top of that list:
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/earnings/call2azboth.html
Actually, all shops DO have access to the same stuff dealers do. The big question is whether or not they want to invest in the software and tools. The man who does all of my car's tuning has access to everything Ford does and he works out of a shop on his private property. It's not that small shops don't have access to this software it's that they don't want to invest in it.[/QUOTE]
Oh goody, we have a lobbyist on the forum.
[Ignore]...
Ok, maybe not an immediate [Ignore]
I pull my figures from the Federal employment data for last month.
The Census data you cite is dated.
The GM proving grounds was not the same as the tech center they wanted to develop and the hangup to it happening came from Mesa demanding extra property tax and fees from GM.
If you want proof of crooked politicians take a look at the handout they gave Gaylord (a developer) in the form of tax rebates to build a luxury hotel on the proving grounds once GM vacates http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/255922
Of Course if you want an AZCentral quote..
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/09/20090309gaylord0309.html
Initially the council resisted the public vote option on tax rebates and other huge public fund outlays until they got called on it in 2004.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/09/20090309gaylord0309.html
They claim quality jobs. I guess maids,janitors and hotel clerks are quality jobs.
I guess it's in the same pool as all those other "quality" jobs like working at WalMart or flipping burgers.
Quoting anything from AZcentral.com is like quoting from a comic book most of the time. I'd suggest you don't rely on it.
Train wreck? Only if you try to pull up the rails. I live in the damned city, I watch the city council and P&Z meetings and have watched the corruption and disdain for the public and small business. Let's not forget the outright land grab in the Bailey brake service case where the city tried to use eminent domain to grab land for a private purpose..
http://www.ij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=990&Itemid=165
And no, there are restrictions on what the independent shop can get from the manufacturer which is a big part of the article in the first place.
Now I'm done..
[Ignore]...for real this time...
I pull my figures from the Federal employment data for last month.
The Census data you cite is dated.
The GM proving grounds was not the same as the tech center they wanted to develop and the hangup to it happening came from Mesa demanding extra property tax and fees from GM.
If you want proof of crooked politicians take a look at the handout they gave Gaylord (a developer) in the form of tax rebates to build a luxury hotel on the proving grounds once GM vacates http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/byauthor/255922
Of Course if you want an AZCentral quote..
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/09/20090309gaylord0309.html
Initially the council resisted the public vote option on tax rebates and other huge public fund outlays until they got called on it in 2004.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2009/03/09/20090309gaylord0309.html
They claim quality jobs. I guess maids,janitors and hotel clerks are quality jobs.
I guess it's in the same pool as all those other "quality" jobs like working at WalMart or flipping burgers.
Quoting anything from AZcentral.com is like quoting from a comic book most of the time. I'd suggest you don't rely on it.
Train wreck? Only if you try to pull up the rails. I live in the damned city, I watch the city council and P&Z meetings and have watched the corruption and disdain for the public and small business. Let's not forget the outright land grab in the Bailey brake service case where the city tried to use eminent domain to grab land for a private purpose..
http://www.ij.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=990&Itemid=165
And no, there are restrictions on what the independent shop can get from the manufacturer which is a big part of the article in the first place.
Now I'm done..
[Ignore]...for real this time...
Amen brother, amen!
Gideon
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2006
- Messages
- 3,541
My words may seem harsh, but sadly there are many people that call themselves mechanics that cant even fix a toaster. Sadly some of these winners are at dealerships too. But most good dealerships do have master certified techs, that do know the systems.
Only way to know the system is to get training, having the tool only shows you information. If you don't know what it means, then it does you no good.
I could give you the tools the service manual and chuckle as you follow the trouble tree in the book. After watching you chase everything they tell you to check and realizing that it all tested fine and says to return the vehicle to the customer. I can then show you why training is important and show you what you should check, as the engineneer that wrote the book missed a few.
Also my favorite in a book, is replace with a known good part. Good luck with asking a parts house to borrow a part. If you got the skill then you dont need me and thats fine, but dont come cry on my shoulder if you fry half your cars electronics, then want me to fix it up for cheap.
Only way to know the system is to get training, having the tool only shows you information. If you don't know what it means, then it does you no good.
I could give you the tools the service manual and chuckle as you follow the trouble tree in the book. After watching you chase everything they tell you to check and realizing that it all tested fine and says to return the vehicle to the customer. I can then show you why training is important and show you what you should check, as the engineneer that wrote the book missed a few.
Also my favorite in a book, is replace with a known good part. Good luck with asking a parts house to borrow a part. If you got the skill then you dont need me and thats fine, but dont come cry on my shoulder if you fry half your cars electronics, then want me to fix it up for cheap.
Average idiot? I guess anyone who's not a tech like you are is an idiot. Nice
Knowledge IS key here. I know people who aren't even certified mechanics, and they can fix problems that "highly trained" ones couldn't(or wouldn't). I don't know what that says about the caliber of the mechanics they had the pleasure of asking help from..
So what sets the trained mechanic apart from the average joe with service manual/experience/correct information and the right tools?
Gideon
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So I assume you complained to the dealer for all this damage and have them repair it? I mean the car wouldnt even had made it to ya without a huge oil trail. Also a broken o2 sensor would have set a code for that o2 sensor, all he had to do is look.
I'm sorry but your story is bullshit, your just bashing cause you think you look cool. If my car was returned like that I would have made them fix it right away made them refund me for the damage to my car, if they didnt I would have filed a complaint with the bureau of automotive repair and got it handeld.
Go troll elsewhere.
I'm sorry but your story is bullshit, your just bashing cause you think you look cool. If my car was returned like that I would have made them fix it right away made them refund me for the damage to my car, if they didnt I would have filed a complaint with the bureau of automotive repair and got it handeld.
Go troll elsewhere.
Your post is almost laughable. First you mock the AZ republic as comical and you post two links from it and a third that says the same thing the other two did. Not to mention that you ramble on about corruption causing the GM to take a hike yet none of your links say anything about it. You're making all of these outlandish claims and posting nothing proving them.
The parts to fix these cars are available to the public because if they weren't the hoards of people who do specialized tuning and installs wouldn't be able to function.
"Opponents of the bill counter that the information and tools to repair the vehicles are available to those willing to buy them."
You lost all credibility after the word Dodge....
Dodge is (and has been for the past 10 years) the crap car maker in America. Even their Chrysler division has suffered significantly.
I'd rather buy a GM over a Dodge vehicle... and I hate GM.
There is no difference between the divisions, both were owned and operated by Mercedes Benz.
And I can assure you Americans had very little input as to how things were run, the Germans always got thier way.
Gideon
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Well Chrysler was bought by a german ran company, so of course we built what they wanted. Sadly it was the left over junk they didnt want to use and forced down our throats. They actually forced us to lower the quality of several vehciles so it didnt outclass their cars.
But I'd rather not talk about what DBAG did to Chrysler. I know my 98 neon and my 05 ram both run just fine with next to no hassle for me. Oh and on a side note 98 was the last year of the original Chrysler corp, it had record profits.
But I'd rather not talk about what DBAG did to Chrysler. I know my 98 neon and my 05 ram both run just fine with next to no hassle for me. Oh and on a side note 98 was the last year of the original Chrysler corp, it had record profits.