Help with Sony GDM FW900 - Ghosting like trail effect

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melibond

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
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Hello again :).

I am experiencing something with my FW900 that I'm not familiar with. Whenever I move a white image on the screen or scroll down some white text, it seems to leave a ghost trail behind that then fades away when the image stops moving or when I stop the scrolling.
I wanted to play some horror games today, but this is really making dark scenes confusing and hard to see because of all the ghosting going on on screen when moving the camera around.

Is anyone familiar with this ? If so, is there an explanation to it, or a way to fix it that you might know ?

Anything helps, since I'm pretty much clueless.

Thank you!

Thanks for the help on my last post too by the way. I really appreciate all the input I received with the issues I had.

P.S. If this doesn't sound familiar, let me know and I'll record the monitor doing it.
 
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It's because the light output doesn't decay instantaneously from the phosphors that it causes trailing. It's only really noticeable if you calibrate your monitor for pitch black. If you go by the sRGB standard with elevated black level and calibrate for contrast >5000:1 it still looks good under typical lighting conditions. I've done that since I dedicated my FW900 primarily to console gaming. The guys in the studios doing all the art and graphics are using that standard anyway, even when they use OLEDs to master movies and TV it is no longer with CRT gamma. It is one of the actual disadvantages of the display however along with the aperture grille wires, etc., etc. but I wouldn't chuck it out for an OLED for that case only since OLEDs still have issues albeit different ones at low light levels themselves. The perfect pitch black "hologram" experience is still a crapshoot sort of (the late Kuro plasmas did it overall the best in terms of pure black level, motion quality, spectral output, even compared to OLED in some estimations). If you really want to max out the contrast get a bias light so your eyes aren't so sensitive at lower light levels, but this is still a "trick" so to say.
 
Well, I returned to CRTs, among other reasons, after a brief time away, so I could chuck the bias light. I like it dark. :)

The trail of the phosphor, I don't notice it much, but it's a thing. Maybe the OP is particularly sensitive to it. Or something with the tube if it's really that bad? I don't know.
 
SH1 said:
Well, I returned to CRTs, among other reasons, after a brief time away, so I could chuck the bias light. I like it dark. :)

The trail of the phosphor, I don't notice it much, but it's a thing. Maybe the OP is particularly sensitive to it. Or something with the tube if it's really that bad? I don't know.
Click to expand...
If you calibrate the tube to a super dark black level things like bright white lamps and other objects in dark scenes will trail visibly. The bias light helps keep your eyes adapted to the brightest part so you notice it less, but any Mk. 1 eyeball system will detect it especially if there is no other light in the scene.
 
aeliusg said:
It's because the light output doesn't decay instantaneously from the phosphors that it causes trailing. It's only really noticeable if you calibrate your monitor for pitch black. If you go by the sRGB standard with elevated black level and calibrate for contrast >5000:1 it still looks good under typical lighting conditions. I've done that since I dedicated my FW900 primarily to console gaming. The guys in the studios doing all the art and graphics are using that standard anyway, even when they use OLEDs to master movies and TV it is no longer with CRT gamma. It is one of the actual disadvantages of the display however along with the aperture grille wires, etc., etc. but I wouldn't chuck it out for an OLED for that case only since OLEDs still have issues albeit different ones at low light levels themselves. The perfect pitch black "hologram" experience is still a crapshoot sort of (the late Kuro plasmas did it overall the best in terms of pure black level, motion quality, spectral output, even compared to OLED in some estimations). If you really want to max out the contrast get a bias light so your eyes aren't so sensitive at lower light levels, but this is still a "trick" so to say.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. I don't have my monitor specifically calibrated for pitch black, although the blacks are pretty black on the normal setting of the monitor at 6500k on the expert settings.
Unless very bright, and botheringly so, the lighting conditions in my room don't really help remove the effect.

What kind of bias light would you recommend ? Or would anything do ?
 
SH1 said:
Well, I returned to CRTs, among other reasons, after a brief time away, so I could chuck the bias light. I like it dark. :)

The trail of the phosphor, I don't notice it much, but it's a thing. Maybe the OP is particularly sensitive to it. Or something with the tube if it's really that bad? I don't know.
Click to expand...

It's very noticeable for me.
 
aeliusg said:
If you calibrate the tube to a super dark black level things like bright white lamps and other objects in dark scenes will trail visibly. The bias light helps keep your eyes adapted to the brightest part so you notice it less, but any Mk. 1 eyeball system will detect it especially if there is no other light in the scene.
Click to expand...

So, would you say that it's natural for the monitor to show this much trailling ? The trails on my monitor are around half as clear as anything else on screen (actually, more than that*).
 
melibond said:
So, would you say that it's natural for the monitor to show this much trailling ? The trails on my monitor are around half as clear as anything else on screen (actually, more than that*).
Click to expand...
Yeah, you're fine though you may be a bit disappointed. Eyes are very sensitive and the phosphor is very bright so you're going to see it if you calibrate for complete black with the guide.
 
melibond said:
Thanks for the reply. I don't have my monitor specifically calibrated for pitch black, although the blacks are pretty black on the normal setting of the monitor at 6500k on the expert settings.
Unless very bright, and botheringly so, the lighting conditions in my room don't really help remove the effect.

What kind of bias light would you recommend ? Or would anything do ?
Click to expand...
melibond said:
It's very noticeable for me.
Click to expand...
melibond said:
So, would you say that it's natural for the monitor to show this much trailling ? The trails on my monitor are around half as clear as anything else on screen (actually, more than that*).
Click to expand...

You gotta use that multi-quote button mang
 
aeliusg said:
Yeah, you're fine though you may be a bit disappointed. Eyes are very sensitive and the phosphor is very bright so you're going to see it if you calibrate for complete black with the guide.
Click to expand...

I am a bit dissapointed, although, I will try the bias light.
 
Phosphor trails are one of those CRT effects which were always there but people did not notice. Kinda like when you see especially old PAL TV with its 50Hz flickering are wonder how you did not notice it in the past when the flickering is just completely ridiculous. I always saw these effects and kinda knew about its existence but only after using LCD for a long time and going back to CRT I really noticed them.

Thankfully like in the past you get used to them and after some time do not really notice them anymore and/or just ignore them.
 
XoR_ said:
Phosphor trails are one of those CRT effects which were always there but people did not notice. Kinda like when you see especially old PAL TV with its 50Hz flickering are wonder how you did not notice it in the past when the flickering is just completely ridiculous. I always saw these effects and kinda knew about its existence but only after using LCD for a long time and going back to CRT I really noticed them.

Thankfully like in the past you get used to them and after some time do not really notice them anymore and/or just ignore them.
Click to expand...

I agree :). Although, I gotta say, the phosphor effect on my GDM FW900 seems a lot more than other CRT monitors. Could it be that it's because of the hardware's age ?
 
melibond said:
Although, I gotta say, the phosphor effect on my GDM FW900 seems a lot more than other CRT monitors.
Click to expand...

My LaCie also has longer-persisting trails.

Look on the bright side. 60hz-locked games have less noticeable flicker thanks to the slower fade time on these phosphors. So grab Mega Man 11 on Steam and enjoy that smooth 60hz animation.
 
My CRTs have plenty of use at this point, but probably have had relatively easy lives compared to many. If wear of the phosphors is a factor in this. I mean I can certainly see, detect, the phosphor decay effect, but it just doesn't bother me.

Actually, I'm not even sure how much sample and hold blur bothers me. Certainly, it's much more obvious to me if I'm actually A/B'ing an LCD and CRT then if I'm just seeing one tech by itself. Not that I don't appreciate that CRT doesn't have that, but it's been most about the blacks and richness of picture CRT offers. (Before OLED came to town anyway.)

Maybe folks are just different to some extent. Some people can't use Aperture Grill displays, for example, because they can't not see the stabilizer wires.
 
SH1 said:
My CRTs have plenty of use at this point, but probably have had relatively easy lives compared to many. If wear of the phosphors is a factor in this. I mean I can certainly see, detect, the phosphor decay effect, but it just doesn't bother me.

Actually, I'm not even sure how much sample and hold blur bothers me. Certainly, it's much more obvious to me if I'm actually A/B'ing an LCD and CRT then if I'm just seeing one tech by itself. Not that I don't appreciate that CRT doesn't have that, but it's been most about the blacks and richness of picture CRT offers. (Before OLED came to town anyway.)

Maybe folks are just different to some extent. Some people can't use Aperture Grill displays, for example, because they can't not see the stabilizer wires.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is necessarely up to subjective experience differences. My FW900 simply leaves a lot of trail. It leaves so much so in dark images that it is not just bothersome. It downright makes it hard to see what I'm trying to see. The trails I see I would say are around 60-70 percent as white and bright as the white object in the image, and the trails alongate to 10-20 times the object in the screen. So, imagine a big white line on the screen everytime you move your camera in a dark first person game for example. Now, imagine if this is a horror game, the lines last around half a second to a second in each camera turn, and it's a lamp in a room and the rest is dark, and you're trying to look at things in the dark, but what you can see most of the time when you move the camera around is the white lines on the screen.

Throughout the day, it isn't as intrusive, although, when CRT is most enjoyed, which is in the dark, at night, that's where I see this the most as well, and for horror games, daytime playing is a nono for me.

My conclusion is that my monitor simply has a lot more of a phosphor effect than others do. Wether it's from age or wear, I don't know. If you're interested in seeing how much of a trail it leaves, and compare that to your own CRT monitors, let me know and I can record the monitor in action.
 
SH1 said:
My CRTs have plenty of use at this point, but probably have had relatively easy lives compared to many. If wear of the phosphors is a factor in this. I mean I can certainly see, detect, the phosphor decay effect, but it just doesn't bother me.

Actually, I'm not even sure how much sample and hold blur bothers me. Certainly, it's much more obvious to me if I'm actually A/B'ing an LCD and CRT then if I'm just seeing one tech by itself. Not that I don't appreciate that CRT doesn't have that, but it's been most about the blacks and richness of picture CRT offers. (Before OLED came to town anyway.)

Maybe folks are just different to some extent. Some people can't use Aperture Grill displays, for example, because they can't not see the stabilizer wires.
Click to expand...

Nonetheless, thanks for reaching out :)
 
Dude, I remember my CRT in the 90's leaving trails on World 8 in Mario Bros 3. Your monitor is fine, you're just noticing it more in horror games.

I noticed it a lot in Alien Isolation. I just stopped thinking about it and had fun.
 
Enhanced Interrogator said:
Dude, I remember my CRT in the 90's leaving trails on World 8 in Mario Bros 3. Your monitor is fine, you're just noticing it more in horror games.

I noticed it a lot in Alien Isolation. I just stopped thinking about it and had fun.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but you're not here with me to see the effects my monitor has.

I have nothing against some trailing. I have other CRT screens at home, and none of them have as much as my FW900 does.

The trailing my monitor does is to the point where not thinking about it is not enough. I tried.

I'm not the type to mind small issues, I'm no OCD guy. This is different.
 
Enhanced Interrogator said:
My LaCie also has longer-persisting trails.

Look on the bright side. 60hz-locked games have less noticeable flicker thanks to the slower fade time on these phosphors. So grab Mega Man 11 on Steam and enjoy that smooth 60hz animation.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Bright or colourfull games are fine, thankfully.
 
melibond said:
I respect your opinion, but you're not here with me to see the effects my monitor has.

I have nothing against some trailing. I have other CRT screens at home, and none of them have as much as my FW900 does.

The trailing my monitor does is to the point where not thinking about it is not enough. I tried.

I'm not the type to mind small issues, I'm no OCD guy. This is different.
Click to expand...

Do you see any trails on static images? I want to be sure you’re not seeing signal issues in addition to the natural ghosting.
 
Would tube age play a factor? The light we see from the phosphor is just a chemical reaction no? Assuming the tube still has a vacuum the phosphor should not have changed (except for burn-in, which would be decay, aka lowered brightness).
 
Also, this is why I stated that the Samsung CFG73 (24 inch at least) is a decent substitute for CRT (except for no brightness control on ULMB mode). The GDM-FW900 had the longest persistence phosphors of any monitor I have ever used. All of my other monitors, including the smaller GDM's (Artisan and F520) had shorter persistence. All that to say, the FW900 ghosts like a mother compared to other monitors. But I never found it to be THAT bad. But yes, because of its ghosting, that's why the CFG73 isn't a bad substitute. It has some cross-talk that resembles the ghosting of a CRT. It's just more "digital" in appearance and not as "analog" if that makes sense, so it still takes a back seat.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Do you see any trails on static images? I want to be sure you’re not seeing signal issues in addition to the natural ghosting.
Click to expand...

I don't see any trails on an image that doesn't move. I do see some scanline wobbl9 know if the wobbles comes from my DAC adapter or if it's the monitor. I'm buying a GTX 980 Ti soon, and will go back to analog. Once that's done, I will let you know. I may receive it within next week.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Also, this is why I stated that the Samsung CFG73 (24 inch at least) is a decent substitute for CRT (except for no brightness control on ULMB mode). The GDM-FW900 had the longest persistence phosphors of any monitor I have ever used. All of my other monitors, including the smaller GDM's (Artisan and F520) had shorter persistence. All that to say, the FW900 ghosts like a mother compared to other monitors. But I never found it to be THAT bad. But yes, because of its ghosting, that's why the CFG73 isn't a bad substitute. It has some cross-talk that resembles the ghosting of a CRT. It's just more "digital" in appearance and not as "analog" if that makes sense, so it still takes a back seat.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reaching out, I appreciate the relativity. I'm personally a bit annoyed by it too, and am honestly considering maybe selling the monitor. Although, three things are still keeping me here : Response Time, Colour Depth and Support for any Resolution to display as it should be displayed. I can play games at 1280x800 and still have an awesome image quality for a lot less performance needed from my computer ( And also 140hz refresh rate, coupled with the Response Time, my previous Asus PG279Q that's 1440P 165hz can't beat the smoothness of 100hz on the FW900.).

I will think it over though. Because it would be nice if I could get a good sum of money for the monitor. How much do you reckon I could sell it for ? If the phosphor effect is a thing for all FW900 monitors, then in general, my FW900 is in good condition.
 
melibond said:
Thanks for reaching out, I appreciate the relativity. I'm personally a bit annoyed by it too, and am honestly considering maybe selling the monitor. Although, three things are still keeping me here : Response Time, Colour Depth and Support for any Resolution to display as it should be displayed. I can play games at 1280x800 and still have an awesome image quality for a lot less performance needed from my computer ( And also 140hz refresh rate, coupled with the Response Time, my previous Asus PG279Q that's 1440P 165hz can't beat the smoothness of 100hz on the FW900.).

I will think it over though. Because it would be nice if I could get a good sum of money for the monitor. How much do you reckon I could sell it for ? If the phosphor effect is a thing for all FW900 monitors, then in general, my FW900 is in good condition.
Click to expand...

I have no idea what you could sell it for. Maybe PM me. I may want another one depending on where you live.
 
Oh there are definitely other people in Germany who want it. I saw a 21" NEC sell for $1,000 there.

Melibond, post about it in the buy/sell sticky thread on r/CRTgaming, and you'll have no problems getting rid of it.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Well there goes that then. :). You can also just live with it and understand that not even the venerable FW-900 is perfect. No display is.
Click to expand...

I know, and I'm still not decided on wether I'm gonna sell it. Although, I'm not that well economically, and don't use my computer anywhere near as much as I used to, so if I can get a good sum I'll gladly sell it.
 
Enhanced Interrogator said:
Oh there are definitely other people in Germany who want it. I saw a 21" NEC sell for $1,000 there.

Melibond, post about it in the buy/sell sticky thread on r/CRTgaming, and you'll have no problems getting rid of it.
Click to expand...

I'm not really gonna sell it, unless I get around 2000 or so for it. And to be honest, I'm still not sure even then.

Thanks for letting me know though. I'll open a thread just to see what happens.
 
melibond,

can you please tell me if the trail your fw900 produces and its duration while in motion, is similar to the one in the following video, which is seen in the 4 lights at top of the screen when moving the camera? i recorder that one from my fw900 on a dark game (resident evil 2 remake) im just curious to know, if you are definitelly too sensitive to that trail or your hardware definitelly has an issue with it, because i have seen poor quality video signal adapters or vga cables making that ghosting situation worse. to me eyes, on my fw900 and other crt monitor and tvs i have seen the trail vanishes fast enough and is not that badly notable to feel it such an anoyance, even on dark games.

(ensuse you play the video at 1080p 60fps normal speed to match what i see live on my screen

jbltecnicspro said:
that's why the CFG73 isn't a bad substitute. It has some cross-talk that resembles the ghosting of a CRT.
Click to expand...

to my eyes, the ghosting trial of crts i have seen, including fw900 vanishes fast enough and is only notable in bright moving objects on darker images situations. i wonder if the crosstalk is permanently notable on CFG73 during its strobing mode while in motion or just in some situations as the trail ghosting is on crts?
 
3dfan said:
melibond,

to my eyes, the ghosting trial of crts i have seen, including fw900 vanishes fast enough and is only notable in bright moving objects on darker images situations. i wonder if the crosstalk is permanently notable on CFG73 during its strobing mode while in motion or just in some situations as the trail ghosting is on crts?
Click to expand...

Permanent unfortunately.
 
3dfan said:
melibond,

can you please tell me if the trail your fw900 produces and its duration while in motion, is similar to the one in the following video, which is seen in the 4 lights at top of the screen when moving the camera? i recorder that one from my fw900 on a dark game (resident evil 2 remake) im just curious to know, if you are definitelly too sensitive to that trail or your hardware definitelly has an issue with it, because i have seen poor quality video signal adapters or vga cables making that ghosting situation worse. to me eyes, on my fw900 and other crt monitor and tvs i have seen the trail vanishes fast enough and is not that badly notable to feel it such an anoyance, even on dark games.

(ensuse you play the video at 1080p 60fps normal speed to match what i see live on my screen



to my eyes, the ghosting trial of crts i have seen, including fw900 vanishes fast enough and is only notable in bright moving objects on darker images situations. i wonder if the crosstalk is permanently notable on CFG73 during its strobing mode while in motion or just in some situations as the trail ghosting is on crts?
Click to expand...


I just switched from the Adapter to Analog today, after receiving the GTX 980 Ti I was waiting for, the response time is much better and the image quality is overall more pleasant. As for the trail, compared to the video you showed me, the trails my FW-900 leaves are about twice the length and remain on screen for more than twice the time. They are also much brighter on my screen.
 
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