Help building new PCs for design department!

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imgneevrythng

Weaksauce
Joined
Jun 5, 2008
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Hey guys! I've come to you guys before for help with a build, so I'm hoping you can pull through for me again! This time, I have a pretty awesome request..

I currently work in the design field in a medium sized corporate setting. We're looking into getting new hardware for our designers because we seem to be having big issues with Adobe Creative Suite crashing a lot, and the system generally running pretty slow. We currently use PC for all of our design work. One suggestion has been to simply go right for the new Mac Pros. However, we would like options to bring forward, as we feel PC might be the better option in regards to cost to performance.

Our design department uses Illustrator heavily. Probably 85%-90% of our work is Ai. The rest is a mixture of Photoshop and InDesign. Some of our designers use 3D programs like SolidWorks and rendering programs like Keyshot (this makes the Mac route difficult).

So, here are my list of demands!


1) What will you be doing with this PC? Gaming? Photoshop? Web browsing? etc
Heavy Adobe Illustrator work, and general Adobe Creative Suite use. Also frequent use of 3D modeling and rendering using SolidWorks and KeyShot.

2) What's your budget? Are tax and shipping included?
Max budget is $5,000. If possible, show one other option with a max budget of $3000.

3) Which country do you live in? If the U.S, please tell us the state and city if possible.
USA, New Jersey

4) What exact parts do you need for that budget? CPU, RAM, case, etc. The word "Everything" is not a valid answer. Please list out all the parts you'll need.
This would be a PC from the ground up, excluding keyboard/mouse:
CPU, GPU, RAM, HDD (SSD), CD drive, motherboard, PSU, case, monitor

5) If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Please be especially specific about the power supply. List make and model.
No parts would be reused. Complelely new PC.

6) Will you be overclocking?
No.

7) What is the max resolution of your monitor? What size is it?
Monitor will be new, as well. It's a design environment where we currently use two monitors (24 and 21). One large 27in similar to the newest Mac monitors would be great.

8) When do you plan on building/buying the PC?
ASAP

9) What features do you need in a motherboard? RAID? Firewire? Crossfire or SLI support? USB 3.0? SATA 6Gb/s? eSATA? Onboard video (as a backup or main GPU)? UEFI? etc.
USB3.0 would be great. The build would be used primarily and probably entirely for design use. Things like Crossfire/SLI will never happen nor are needed. I'm not too sure how things like SATA 6Gb/s would be a benefit.

10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
Yes. Windows 7 64bit.
 
What hardware are you working on at the moment? You're looking to build only one system correct?

Since this is a professional machine, are you looking for workstation parts like the Mac Pro? or will consumer parts be satisfactory? If you have no preference, I will spec out a workstation build since the budget should allow for one.

Also, will you need monitor calibration hardware/software or is that something you already have? or is color not mission critical?
 
A better option for grpaphics would be the FirePro W7000. It outperforms the K4000 in Solidworks, is more power efficient, and costs significantly less. Only downside is a pretty poor cooling solution.

A brand new R9 295X2 can be had for a bit more than the W7000 (which is similar to a 4GB 7870), but let's see what the OP has to say on workstation parts first (including Xeons).
 
This build will potentially be for the whole department (20 designers).

The hardware we are on now varies by designer. Unfortunately there is no mold to cast from. The PC I work on has a Xeon 5640, Quadro (not sure the model, not in the office right now, but it's older valued around 300), 12gb of ram and a 7200rpm hdd. Not sure about the motherboard. It's a Dell build.

I'm not sure about your second question. However, I will share this. We received a MacPro to test it out. The value is around $5k, hence the budget for this build. So parts that perform comparably to the MacPro would be good.

Monitor calibration I think IT has software for. We typically don't handle that. Although our monitors now are garbage. We use regular LG monitors the same you'd use for gaming. Color on them isn't the greatest.
 
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I'm fairly certain that the W7000 is the optimal 3D card. As for the main platform, however, I think the best choice will depend heavily on usage. I've looked into how "threaded" your programs can get, and the answers for Ai seem to vary, Solidworks scales better with clockspeed than thread count, and Keyshot scales well with thread count.

What do you expect the longevity of this system to be? If 5+ years, I would go with a 6 core 12 thread Xeon E5 v2 at 2.6GHz at minimum. That would be the E5-2630 v2 (80W, 15MB L3 cache) at around $600. The next steps up would be:
E5-1660 v2 (3.7 GHz, 6 core 12 thread, 130W, 15MB L3) - about $1100
E5-2650 v2 (2.6 GHz, 8 core 16 thread, 95W, 20MB L3) - about $1200

For reference, the Mac Pro tops out with a E5-2697 v2 (2.7 GHz, 12 core 24 thread, 130W, 30MB L3) which is about $2600 at Intel's tray price. I don't think you necessarily need that many cores since your primary usage is Ai. If you did need that much compute power, you can pretty much match it with a 2P Xeon setup for a bit cheaper. Apple likely went the 1P route to save space in their trashcan, I mean, chassis. Note that the E5-26xx chips are 2P capable, and the E5-16xx chips are limited to single socket.

Does anyone know if a 2P 2011 board can operate on a single processor? If it can, that could be a good option to reserve some upgrade path, but my gut feeling is that this is not possible (I really don't have much experience with workstation hardware).

The next top priority is the PSU. A 400-550W 80 PLUS Gold or Platinum PSU with active cooling would be ideal. Unfortunately, there are not many units that fit this criteria. I'm probably going to get shit for recommending this brand, but I'm going to go with the Rosewill Fortress 450. Anandtech had a favorable review for it and the rest of the Fortress series (ATNG is the ODM behind all of them) received good reviews on JonnyGuru and HardwareSecrets. It also comes with a 7 year warranty, which I think is a terrific value at $100.
 
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rastaban said:
Does anyone know if a 2P 2011 board can operate on a single processor? If it can, that could be a good option to reserve some upgrade path, but my gut feeling is that this is not possible (I really don't have much experience with workstation hardware).
Click to expand...
AIUI they can run with one processor but because of the way the memory and PCIe controllers are integrated into the processors running with a single processor means you lose a load of ram slots and PCIe slots.
 
rastaban said:
I'm fairly certain that the W7000 is the optimal 3D card. As for the main platform, however, I think the best choice will depend heavily on usage. I've looked into how "threaded" your programs can get, and the answers for Ai seem to vary, Solidworks scales better with clockspeed than thread count, and Keyshot scales well with thread count.

What do you expect the longevity of this system to be? If 5+ years, I would go with a 6 core 12 thread Xeon E5 v2 at 2.6GHz at minimum. That would be the E5-2630 v2 (80W, 15MB L3 cache) at around $600. The next steps up would be:
E5-1660 v2 (3.7 GHz, 6 core 12 thread, 130W, 15MB L3) - about $1100
E5-2650 v2 (2.6 GHz, 8 core 16 thread, 95W, 20MB L3) - about $1200

For reference, the Mac Pro tops out with a E5-2697 v2 (2.7 GHz, 12 core 24 thread, 130W, 30MB L3) which is about $2600 at Intel's tray price. I don't think you necessarily need that many cores since your primary usage is Ai. If you did need that much compute power, you can pretty much match it with a 2P Xeon setup for a bit cheaper. Apple likely went the 1P route to save space in their trashcan, I mean, chassis. Note that the E5-26xx chips are 2P capable, and the E5-16xx chips are limited to single socket.

Does anyone know if a 2P 2011 board can operate on a single processor? If it can, that could be a good option to reserve some upgrade path, but my gut feeling is that this is not possible (I really don't have much experience with workstation hardware).

The next top priority is the PSU. A 400-550W 80 PLUS Gold or Platinum PSU with active cooling would be ideal. Unfortunately, there are not many units that fit this criteria. I'm probably going to get shit for recommending this brand, but I'm going to go with the Rosewill Fortress 450. Anandtech had a favorable review for it and the rest of the Fortress series (ATNG is the ODM behind all of them) received good reviews on JonnyGuru and HardwareSecrets. It also comes with a 7 year warranty, which I think is a terrific value at $100.
Click to expand...

wow thanks for the thorough reply!

In terms of longevity, these are system that should ideally last us at least 5 years, if not longer. Of course we will upgrade in the future if need be. That's one thing the MacPro doesnt offer us.
 
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imgneevrythng said:
10) Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? If yes, what OS? Is it 32bit or 64bit?
Yes. Windows 7 64bit.
Click to expand...

Just as a CYA measure, that's not Windows 7 Home Premium, correct?
 
plugwash said:
AIUI they can run with one processor but because of the way the memory and PCIe controllers are integrated into the processors running with a single processor means you lose a load of ram slots and PCIe slots.
Click to expand...

I was really curious myself and took a look in one of the Supermicro board manuals for 2P 2011 Xeons. It appears there is a 1 CPU, 4 DIMM configuration allowed on the 2P board (in the memory installation chapter).

This is pretty good news. You can reserve a socket to fill 3-4 years later when the CPU should cost less. However, who knows what corresponding memory prices will be like then, with DDR4 becoming mainstream. The other thing that needs to be changed with this route is the PSU. Not only would you be in the 520-600W range (assuming 2x 130W Xeons), but you need a PSU with 2x 8-pin CPU power connectors. The best PSU then would probably be the Seasonic 660XP2. It is fully modular and comes with a 7 yr warranty as well. (Newegg just sold out because of a recent $100 promo price)

How much RAM are you currently working with? If more than 32GB is needed per CPU, the motherboard will have to be EATX, otherwise the ATX form factor will do.

Also moving onto storage, how much space is needed? will you need redundancy or do you have some kind of backup infrastructure at your workplace already?

My proposal would be a 240/256GB high endurance primary drive with a 480/512GB low endurance drive for Ai scratchwork. These will take advantage of the two SATA III ports on the chipset. A pair of 2TB HDDs in RAID 1 (chipset RAID should be good enough) can serve as media storage and backup for the two SSDs.
 
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Gonna post this down before I forget...

The 2P boards with PCIe x16 slots are all E-ATX. Supermicro only has a couple options that bundle in USB 3.0. Since this is a workstation and not a server requiring a fancy drive configuration, I think the best fit is the X9DAi. ($450 on Amazon)
 
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How much is the ability to get manufacturer repair/service worth? Is it even part of the equation? If you build them yourself, make sure you have extras ready as hot spares. Your designers aren't going to want to hear that they can't use their computer for a week because it failed, you don't know why, and you need to order parts and build a replacement from scratch. If you go with Apple or another pre-built vendor, you'll get same-day replacement for your hardware if it fails. I'd definitely factor the cost of building spares into your cost-benefit analysis.
 
Deezus said:
I'm look at this card as well. Newegg has it for $799.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814133485
Click to expand...

The OP's usage suggests that the 3D card will primarily be used for Solidworks. From benchmarks, the W7000 clearly beats the K4000 in this scenario. The W7000 can be had for $750 on Amazon. The OP lives in NJ, so avoiding Newegg can save some sales tax. The K4000 is $760 on Amazon. You should look into application specific benchmarks for your use, the W7000 may be a good choice for yourself as well.

CEpeep makes a good point about serviceability. The build should only be feasible if there are people inhouse who can confidently maintain the system when needed. It would be wise to keep an extra 3D card, PSU, fans, and a second set of RAM in stock at all times. However, this is a workstation so perhaps it won't be subject to as much stress as a 24/7 server. A capable IT department shouldn't have trouble with it.
 
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CEpeep said:
How much is the ability to get manufacturer repair/service worth? Is it even part of the equation? If you build them yourself, make sure you have extras ready as hot spares. Your designers aren't going to want to hear that they can't use their computer for a week because it failed, you don't know why, and you need to order parts and build a replacement from scratch. If you go with Apple or another pre-built vendor, you'll get same-day replacement for your hardware if it fails. I'd definitely factor the cost of building spares into your cost-benefit analysis.
Click to expand...

I'm actually one of the designers :)

The IT department is pretty good when it comes to repairs. I'm not too sure how they feel about a manu repair service.

The reason for this entire thread is because we were tasked with coming up a system that is built to our needs. The common thought around our department, some agree and some disagree, is that new hardware will fix the issues we've been having with programs crashing and all that jazz.

It's probably time for an upgrade, any way, as our department is growing and as such our needs are growing.

Looking at the posts so far, I'm loving the look of the Xeon E5-2630 v2. Looking up benchmarks and reviews it seems it would be great for our needs. Looks like it can handle KeyShot like a pro. Also the W7000 gpu looks awesome. Seems to do great for SolidWorks.
 
As an aside, if you're looking at $5000/unit, consider setting aside about $150 or so to get battery back-ups.

I have seen hardware get flaky, (crashing, freezing) before it died. On the other hand, I've had builds that have lasted upwards of 10 years (4 years as my primary computer, another 6 as a file server) and I generally credit their longevity to always having them on APC battery back-ups.

Also since noone has mentioned it, MacPro availability is 4-6 weeks, and it may be advisable to take a pass on that because Apple sometimes has more issues than usual with a "revision A" product.
 
Something else to consider: off-siting your rendering jobs to a 3rd party render farm
 
Maybe look at HP Z820 machines?
I checked with our graphics dept, they have 3 machine types..
the 'design animation' seats are Z820, 32gb, Quadro K4000, 4x 300gb 15k SAS (with additional cards)
the 'playout' seats are Supermicro X8DAL, 24gb ram, 2x250gb vraptor, K4000 and an AJA card
the render farm is x50 HP DL380 servers
 
tdowning said:
As an aside, if you're looking at $5000/unit, consider setting aside about $150 or so to get battery back-ups.

I have seen hardware get flaky, (crashing, freezing) before it died. On the other hand, I've had builds that have lasted upwards of 10 years (4 years as my primary computer, another 6 as a file server) and I generally credit their longevity to always having them on APC battery back-ups.

Also since noone has mentioned it, MacPro availability is 4-6 weeks, and it may be advisable to take a pass on that because Apple sometimes has more issues than usual with a "revision A" product.
Click to expand...

I'll suggest the battery back-ups to IT as an option. thanks. considering our building has had a fair share of incidents, it helps..
 
I'll echo the suggestion of something like the HP boxes rather than BYO - it's important business-wise to have the warranty and the support system. And find competing systems from Dell and Lenovo. HP, Dell, and Lenovo can get you an engineer or a replacement box the next day, whereas with BYO it's a lot more difficult.

And if these systems are business-critical, you should have a spare anyway. You want to compare the cost of downtime with the cost of a hot spare.
 
I'm not sure if I mentioned this earlier or not, but we have actually received a MacPro to test out for our needs. It has a Xeon 3.5ghz 6core processor, 16gb ram, 256gb ssd, and dual firepro d500s.

We're making sure we check all options instead of going with just one straight away, so I've been researching other hardware.

Titanus seems to put together solid builds, and using the information you guys have given me, I've come up with these two configurations:

Option A (within budget)
Intel Xeon E5-2690 3GHz 25mb cache 10 core
32GB 1866mhz DDR3 memory
256GB SSD
FirePro W7000
Total: $4625

Option B (slightly over budget)
2x Intel Xeon E5-2650 2.5GHz(3.4GHz TB) 20mb Cache 8-core
32GB 1866mhz DDR3 memory
256GB SSD
Quadro K4000
Total: $5655

So my thought process here was that our needs in Adobe CS6 won't fully utilize the hardware we get, regardless of what platform. The real resource hog will be SolidWorks and KeyShot (on top of running Ai, PS, Outlook..etc at the same time). Option A I feel is pretty balanced, and looks to me like it beats the MacPro hardware. Option B would, imo, be our best option, as the dual Xeon's would handle modeling and rendering in SW and KS without blinking an eye.

What I'm not liking about the MacPro hardware compared to the other options I've shown are the dual FirePro's which I feel are unnecessary for our needs and more needed for video editing and the such (which we don't do), and the CPU. The low level of cache and cores just isn't appealing.

One thing about the MacPro that I see it as beating my options, is that for the $5000 price tag, it comes with the monitor. Both of my options do not include a monitor, which would be $500-$700 more. I haven't done enough research there to include them in my options.

What do you guys think?
 
Quartz-1 said:
You already have monitors.
Click to expand...

We do, but we would get monitors that are better for our needs.

The monitors we use now do not show full RGB color. Other monitors like the MacPro monitor or the Asus PB278Q better represent color and are better for our needs
 
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