Hd Dvd

J

JOESKURTU

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
234
http://www.hardocp.com/news.html?news=MTc4NjUsLCxobmV3cywsLDE=

I have a feeling that most consumers are going to be too confused to even want to invest in another vhs versus betamax war.

I recently bought an 32" Westinghouse lcd tv that I enjoy. Now I am kinda poed that I did not even hear about HDMI before I bought it. I bought it thinking to myself: 1080i check, Pc connection (dvi) check, Descent price ($1,300) check.

Only a few weeks later they came out with 1080p !! Damn I was kicking myself. And now this (HDMI)!! When will it all end?

Does anyone know if the new HDVD players will support a full signal going through the DVI port using an HDMI cable adapter?

Just think of all those poor plasma adopters stuck out in the cold with no HDMI, no DVI and no chance of ever seeing HD on their tv! What was the point of even buying em in the first place? :mad:
 
Supposedly, and although I haven't seen it in concrete anywhere yet, as long as you have an HDCP-DVI, which most of the newer DVI ports are (check your manual) you should be fine with an adapter.

Thats just what the articles have been saying. If you think about it, it really shouldn't be a big deal. The signal isn't being converted, it's digital, and you are simply changing the connection, not the signal coming across it. So HDMI-HDCP to DVI-HDCP should work, in theory anywho.
 
I think there will be a market for hacked hardware.
 
BBA said:
I think there will be a market for hacked hardware.
Click to expand...

I think you're right and it is unfortunate that most honest people will have to suffer or break the law to be able to properly use thier Tv sets.

I would love to blow off some steam at these "Content Companies" but I guess the best way I can flip them the bird is to not even spend a dime on their restrictive products. They are punishing the wrong people.

I have already made choices based solely on my freedom of use. For example: I will never buy a restrictive CD or any format of digital music that I cannnot freely move around.

These companies are about to get a huge wake up call. All they are doing is for not. I say dvdjohn or someone like him will hack this new CRAP in under a week. :p
 
hdmi has been out for some time, even though the standard is still being modified. hell, I have a tv thats a year and a half old that has hdmi.

hdcp is currently becoming a non issue anyway. Sony, Disney, and Universal have all announced they will not make use of the image constraint token for several years at least.
 
It's the early adopters who will suffer the most. Even then I have tv's that are less than 2 years old, and they both have only DVI inputs. They are both HDCP enabled, but I'm not biting until they get the whole dual format thing under control.
 
isn't DVI just HDMI without audio? i'm pretty sure it's just as good for a 1080p resolution. i doubt anyone will be getting any of the new HDDVD or Blu-Ray component systems except for maybe the PS3. it's far too early to start investing a grand or two into a format that hasn't even come out yet, let alone be supported by much stuff (though blu-ray seems to have over 100 titles under its belt so far...)
 
HDMI has two benefits over DVI - one is you can run longer cables without signal degradation, two, it supports audio. HDMI is also always HDCP, DVI is HDCP sometimes. HDCP has been out for a long time though, I don't have much sympathy for people who didn't do 5 minutes of google research before they bought their sets in the last couple years. My TV is almost 4 years old and it supports HDCP through DVI.

Still, HD-DVD is a bit of a non-issue for me, I am holding out for Blu-Ray.
 
Like (i suspect many) others, I'm just going to hold off buying anything until it all shakes out.
 
NulloModo said:
HDMI has two benefits over DVI - one is you can run longer cables without signal degradation, two, it supports audio. HDMI is also always HDCP, DVI is HDCP sometimes. HDCP has been out for a long time though, I don't have much sympathy for people who didn't do 5 minutes of google research before they bought their sets in the last couple years. My TV is almost 4 years old and it supports HDCP through DVI.

Still, HD-DVD is a bit of a non-issue for me, I am holding out for Blu-Ray.
Click to expand...

as the hdcp spec really just shaped up, youll find your set is not hdcp compliant. simply having a digital connection is not enough. I've gone to sony directly over this, as my Sony KD-34XBR960 has a an hdmi 1.1 port, and is NOT hdcp compliant, the newer model of this same set (I think its designated with an M at the end) IS compliant. You're going to find should any company choose to use the image constraint token youll be left out in the cold along with most other people.
 
NulloModo said:
HDMI has two benefits over DVI - one is you can run longer cables without signal degradation, two, it supports audio. HDMI is also always HDCP, DVI is HDCP sometimes. HDCP has been out for a long time though, I don't have much sympathy for people who didn't do 5 minutes of google research before they bought their sets in the last couple years. My TV is almost 4 years old and it supports HDCP through DVI.

Still, HD-DVD is a bit of a non-issue for me, I am holding out for Blu-Ray.
Click to expand...
There would have been no way of knowing two years ago the TV you bought wouldn't be compatible with HD and Blu-Ray. This is bullshit on the part of hollywood and the manufacturers who kowtowed to them over piracy worries.

Your lack of sympathy is misplaced, and should actually be anger over the restrictive crap that is anti-consumer. There shouldn't be anyone who owns an HDTV set who is made unable to take advantage of this new technology.

These players should output 720p/1080i with component and DVI, and alllow the new purchasers the chance to run 1080p where available over HDMI.

I'm voting with my wallet, F' em for their BS on both camps. If I have a Blu-Ray player it will be because it's built into a PS3, and personally, thats not the reason I'm excited about the damn thing.
 
Tutelary said:
as the hdcp spec really just shaped up, youll find your set is not hdcp compliant. simply having a digital connection is not enough. I've gone to sony directly over this, as my Sony KD-34XBR960 has a an hdmi 1.1 port, and is NOT hdcp compliant, the newer model of this same set (I think its designated with an M at the end) IS compliant. You're going to find should any company choose to use the image constraint token youll be left out in the cold along with most other people.
Click to expand...

Actually, I am positive it is HDCP compliant. I have a 1080i upconverting DVD player which is well documented to only work with HDCP sets, and it works fine with mine.

EDIT:

Kahnvex -

I am not happy that Hollywood is taking the route they are with this, but since they control what comes out, and since those of us who actually understand and care about DRM are in the very slim minority, there is not much to be done. Yes, I guess by buying a Blu-Ray player I will be contributing to the beast, but I see it as pretty inevitable by now. I want to have hi-def DVDs at my disposal. Plus, there is always the hope that a company like Apex will release a blu-ray or HD-DVD player that circumvents the bullshit.
 
NulloModo said:
Actually, I am positive it is HDCP compliant. I have a 1080i upconverting DVD player which is well documented to only work with HDCP sets, and it works fine with mine.

EDIT:

Kahnvex -

I am not happy that Hollywood is taking the route they are with this, but since they control what comes out, and since those of us who actually understand and care about DRM are in the very slim minority, there is not much to be done. Yes, I guess by buying a Blu-Ray player I will be contributing to the beast, but I see it as pretty inevitable by now. I want to have hi-def DVDs at my disposal. Plus, there is always the hope that a company like Apex will release a blu-ray or HD-DVD player that circumvents the bullshit.
Click to expand...

stardard definition DVDs do not use hdcp
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=here0fv.jpg
I've asked sony this particular question on 3 seperate occasions and the answer is always no. There is a newer model of the xbr960 with an N designation at the end which IS hdcp compliant, however.
 
Nullo, I totally understand where you are coming from on the want for HD content, believe you me, I've felt like we've all been standing still when it comes to the networks and hollywood giving us the content we've been waiting years for.

I went with a subscription to Dish with HD, because I'm not waiting for my towns franchised stations to start broadcasting HD any longer. I too plan on owning something with HD capabilities in a next-gen DVD player, and honestly that will probably be a PS3, simply because it will be built in. I'm just not planning on collecting a huge library of titles and supporting the format until something gets sorted out with what I feel to be the punishing of legitimate consumers for a downslump in hollywood profits resulting more from them making tons of shitty movies and the fact that it costs 2 people a minimum of 15 bucks just to get in the door, much less buy a soda, then it is due to piracy.

I'm sure it will all work out, it just sucks that such drastic measures are being kicked about in the first place.

I'll definitely buy some of the big titles like the LOTR and Matrix trilogies, but you won't catch me replacing my 500+ dvd library anytime soon with anything HD.
 
Tutelary said:
stardard definition DVDs do not use hdcp
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=here0fv.jpg
I've asked sony this particular question on 3 seperate occasions and the answer is always no. There is a newer model of the xbr960 with an N designation at the end which IS hdcp compliant, however.
Click to expand...

Standard def and progressive scan DVD players do not use HDCP, that is correct. However, upconverting DVD players do (well, some do, some don't, mine happens to be one of the ones that does).

There are some DVD players that upscale to 1080i with better processing than most TVs before they output to the TV, some will send the signal via component, most require DVI or HDMI. Mine happens to be of the HDMI variety, but it works fine with my TV, plus, Hitachi states HDCP compliance in their documentation for the set.
 
<---will not early adopt..repeat 4 times.
1984cd player 600 dollars
1997dvdplayer 500 dollars
repeat will not early adopt.

...
maybe

Edit: i still have a betamax. I will not farking do this again.
 
NulloModo said:
Standard def and progressive scan DVD players do not use HDCP, that is correct. However, upconverting DVD players do (well, some do, some don't, mine happens to be one of the ones that does).

There are some DVD players that upscale to 1080i with better processing than most TVs before they output to the TV, some will send the signal via component, most require DVI or HDMI. Mine happens to be of the HDMI variety, but it works fine with my TV, plus, Hitachi states HDCP compliance in their documentation for the set.
Click to expand...

I know well of upscanning players, like oppo etc. I just dont understand needing hdcp compliance for non hdcp material, as none of the other upscanning players I've seen require it, and as I've already shown, the set is not hdcp anyway. In the end, I'll believe what I've been told multiple times by Sony, the hdmi port on the set is not hdcp, it would have negated the need for the newly revised model.

I'd like to know which hitachi player this is, as I'm betting its using hdmi for the cleanest signal with no conversion (using component would defeat that purpose.)

feel free to write, call, or hop on down to Sony, and you'll be told the same thing I was.
 
Tutelary said:
I know well of upscanning players, like oppo etc. I just dont understand needing hdcp compliance for non hdcp material, as none of the other upscanning players I've seen require it, and as I've already shown, the set is not hdcp anyway. In the end, I'll believe what I've been told multiple times by Sony, the hdmi port on the set is not hdcp, it would have negated the need for the newly revised model.

I'd like to know which hitachi player this is, as I'm betting its using hdmi for the cleanest signal with no conversion (using component would defeat that purpose.)

feel free to write, call, or hop on down to Sony, and you'll be told the same thing I was.
Click to expand...

If that set doesn't support HDCP, well, that is really bizarre, but if that is what Sony is telling you I guess it is true. Sony had TVs made before that one that did support HDCP, and this is the only time I have ever heard of an HDMI interface that didn't support it, that is really just, bizarre. It sounds almost like somebody on the engineering team botched something with model and that's why it doesn't work, for the life of me I can't figure out another reason Sony wouldn't have included the support, especially on something from the XBR line.

As for the upconverting DVD players - HDCP is on a hardware level, not a content one, though supposedly the next gen-DVD formats will include something on the discs as well to make sure it is enforced... Read around AVSForums a bit, there are a couple upconverting players (an older Samsung, a Zenith, maybe an Apex, some random Chinese/Korean brands) that will do 1080i over component or DVI without HDCP, but the majority of the big names, Panasonic, Sony, Denon, etc, all require that to get the 1080i signal. They will still work with regular inputs and in 480p mode without HDCP, but you need it to get 1080i. My player is a Panasonic DVD-S97s, TV is a Hitachi 57SWX20b .
 
ok. I was still getting "no" out of the online help, and email help, so I called directly and was adamant that whoever I spoke with call around and find out. I am now assured that they DO in fact support hdcp. How I have been told seperately at least 5 times that they do not is beyond me, but there you go.
I'm assuming that either the people who are answering online/email help have bad technical information or someone above them gives them bad information as they always have made me wait while they "check" before I get the no answer.
I'll go with yes for now, as irritating as its been to get a yes out of them.

I'd feel bad about it had I not been assured repeatedly otherwise.
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=here0fv.jpg proof Sony's tech help sucks.
 
Tutelary said:
ok. I was still getting "no" out of the online help, and email help, so I called directly and was adamant that whoever I spoke with call around and find out. I am now assured that they DO in fact support hdcp. How I have been told seperately at least 5 times that they do not is beyond me, but there you go.
I'm assuming that either the people who are answering online/email help have bad technical information or someone above them gives them bad information as they always have made me wait while they "check" before I get the no answer.
I'll go with yes for now, as irritating as its been to get a yes out of them.

I'd feel bad about it had I not been assured repeatedly otherwise.
http://img83.imageshack.us/my.php?image=here0fv.jpg proof Sony's tech help sucks.
Click to expand...

Corporate tech support in general sucks. Actually, the only company that has ever given me decent tech support over the phone has been Sprint, and even then it was a crapshoot whether I would get someone with a clue or not.
 
Tutelary said:
hdmi has been out for some time, even though the standard is still being modified. hell, I have a tv thats a year and a half old that has hdmi.

hdcp is currently becoming a non issue anyway. Sony, Disney, and Universal have all announced they will not make use of the image constraint token for several years at least.
Click to expand...

from what ive read, they said the first wave of movies would do 1080i over component, they def didnt say they wouldnt enable the ICT for years down the road.

The only thing I can say is to raise hell. there's tens of millions of people who well cry bloddy murder if studios downsample because of the lack of hdmi/hdcp video. shit, i have 2 hdmi slots on my tv, and whatever format enables ict first ill boycot. i dont think that they want the backlack from the majority of hd owners.
 
My 55" Mitsubishi is over 5 years old now. It doesn't even have a DVI port. I'm sure that there are many people out there just like me who adopted early and will now get the shaft for doing so.

The story I got back when I bought the TV was that everything was going to be forced to be HD by 2006. As in mandatory. As in there will be no more standard broadcasting. As in if you don't have an HDTV, you will have to buy some sort of converter to make your older TV work. Here it is 2006, and nothing has really changed. I can't say that I'm really suprised.

Now... I have had 5 years to enjoy DVDs in great quality (albeit not HD), so no matter what, I have gotten my money's worth out of the TV.

Here is what I know for now... I will NOT buy another HDTV just to be able to watch something that my current TV is capable of displaying. I think it is rediculous for anyone to expect people like me to do that. So... that leaves people like me two options...

Firstly let me say that from what I understand the HD-DVDs will play in 1080i over component UNLESS the disc is copyprotected. From what I understand, the discs that do contain this copyprotection will be well marked all over the box to let the consumer know (at least they are doing that).

So... folks might get a player if a considerable amount of movies that they want in HD are not copyprotected (yeah right). Otherwise, they are going to have to take other measures (hardware/software) to circumvent this copyprotection so that they can get the discs to do what they should automatically do.

If you ask me, the studios are just begging for pirates to crack their new stuff. If the studios would release products at a reasonable price without crazy restrictions, they certainly wouldn't stop piracy, but they could seriously reduce the amount of people who resorted to it as the only way. Think about DVDs. The kid that cracked CSS just wanted to watch a movie on his linux box. Someone will crack this protection too because they will want to watch HD-DVDs on their TVs that don't have the DVI ports.

It really amazes me that they are creating their own worst enemies.
 
Each movie studio may choose to implement the image-constraint flag on a disc-by-disc basis, which constrains or downconverts the movie's resolution to 960x540 via the component outputs (HDMI output remains at full resolution). However, most major studios--Sony (Columbia/Tri-Star/MGM), Fox, Disney, Paramount, and Universal--have publicly stated that they will not make use of the image-constraint flag, at least initially. If true, movies from those studios will display at full resolution via the component outputs.
Click to expand...
source

if they do enforce HDCP only over HDMI or DVI the component will at max output EDTV+ (960x540) on both blue-ray and hddvd
 
FlipperBizkut said:
My 55" Mitsubishi is over 5 years old now. It doesn't even have a DVI port. I'm sure that there are many people out there just like me who adopted early and will now get the shaft for doing so.

The story I got back when I bought the TV was that everything was going to be forced to be HD by 2006. As in mandatory. As in there will be no more standard broadcasting. As in if you don't have an HDTV, you will have to buy some sort of converter to make your older TV work. Here it is 2006, and nothing has really changed. I can't say that I'm really suprised.

Now... I have had 5 years to enjoy DVDs in great quality (albeit not HD), so no matter what, I have gotten my money's worth out of the TV.

Here is what I know for now... I will NOT buy another HDTV just to be able to watch something that my current TV is capable of displaying. I think it is rediculous for anyone to expect people like me to do that. So... that leaves people like me two options...

Firstly let me say that from what I understand the HD-DVDs will play in 1080i over component UNLESS the disc is copyprotected. From what I understand, the discs that do contain this copyprotection will be well marked all over the box to let the consumer know (at least they are doing that).

So... folks might get a player if a considerable amount of movies that they want in HD are not copyprotected (yeah right). Otherwise, they are going to have to take other measures (hardware/software) to circumvent this copyprotection so that they can get the discs to do what they should automatically do.

If you ask me, the studios are just begging for pirates to crack their new stuff. If the studios would release products at a reasonable price without crazy restrictions, they certainly wouldn't stop piracy, but they could seriously reduce the amount of people who resorted to it as the only way. Think about DVDs. The kid that cracked CSS just wanted to watch a movie on his linux box. Someone will crack this protection too because they will want to watch HD-DVDs on their TVs that don't have the DVI ports.

It really amazes me that they are creating their own worst enemies.
Click to expand...

The thing is, most of the people out there with Component only HD sets would either a) not be interested in blu-ray or HD-dvd anyway (as if they bought back in '01 if they were true gadget and HT freaks, they would have upgraded again by now), or b) won't mind the excuse to upgrade to a bigger better TV anyway. I love my set, but it's a monster (350 lbs or so, RP CRT) and though the image quality is great, some of the new Sony SXRD sets are looking just as good if not better, plus, at 57" it's starting to look a little small (don't you hate it when that happens?). So, Blu-Ray to me is an excuse to upgrade to something new that will support 1080p
 
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