HardOCP's ATI CrossFire Evaluation

Mr_Evil said:
The tech preview gave me high hopes for Crossfire, but once again the [H] comes through with an honest assessment of the finished product. It also appears from what Brent wrote in the article that Crossfire has NO multi-monitor support. Sorry ATi, but I MUST HAVE MY DUALLY MONITORS! I'm glad to know my money went to the NF4 SLI Setup.

Crossfire does merit a revisit provided ATi can get rid of those nasty 60hz refresh limits, and the lack of multi monitor support.
Uh...what? SLI does not support multiple monitors. This is a long known fact.
 
I have never been as dissapointed with an [H] review as I am with this one... it seems like you purposefully set out to find problems with the ATI setup.

Here are my gripes:
1) I appreciate the inclusion of the 7800GTX benches, but that is an apples to oranges comparison. the 8XX series of cards were meant to compete with the 68XX series of cards - and ATI's Crossfire betters NV's SLI as far as performance in this area. I agree that a 7800GTX is a better buy, but that is no reason to dismiss crossfire.

2) A very real benefit of the ATI system - being able to mismatch vendors - is dismissed because of upcoming changes from NV. Why? In the past [H] has always been good about not counting something until it actually arrives, but in this review you are dismissing an ATI benefit because "NV will have that in the future".

3) You point out that crossfire will only work as well as the slower card - but did you actually test to see what benefits this has on the slower card? [H] is better than dismissing something merely on theory. What is the difference between using a PRO versus an XT PE as the slave card??? Maybe crossfire is in fact cheaper (if there is almost no differences) - show us the benches, not assumptions.

There are some serious problems with crossfire - resolution limitations and installation difficulties. BUT I was expecting a review comparing crossfire to SLI, and I didn't get that. Your review basically said: "7800GTX in single mode is faster than 850XT in crossfire. Any end user benefits crossfire currently offers will be addressed by nvidia in a future release. Crossfire sucks".

Sad to say, I'm not impressed.
 
Doodle said:
2) A very real benefit of the ATI system - being able to mismatch vendors - is dismissed because of upcoming changes from NV. Why? In the past [H] has always been good about not counting something until it actually arrives, but in this review you are dismissing an ATI benefit because "NV will have that in the future".
As of this post you still can't buy a crossfire setup and there is no mention of "crossfire" drivers on the ATI site. So it's valid to compare unreleased drivers from NVIDIA with unreleased product from ATI.

Since Crossfire is the newest product from ATI, it's also fair to compare it to the latest product from NVIDIA. Most people looking at dropping cash on a dual card setup want to look at the best card from both vendors that would be the x850 and the GTX.

You should be more upset at ATI for releasing this product so late, not a [H] for doing a review that compares it to products that came out during that delay.
 
Not sure why everyone compares the 7800 to what ATI has to offer ATM. People forget their are a lot of AGP motherboards left out there. And some of those guys will not want to upgrade their motherboard. Theire is more then just the elite computer market. More then likely everyone here knows more people with non PCIe non 7800 machines. Most people I know of buy semi new tech, but almost never stuff that has just left the buiding.

Just have to wait and see what is availble come christmas time.
 
PRIME1 said:
As of this post you still can't buy a crossfire setup and there is no mention of "crossfire" drivers on the ATI site.

Techincally you can as I found 3 venders with just a few secs on google that will sell you an master card today...however when that card ships different story..but you said BUY and as I said techincally you can buy :)


PRIME1 said:
Since Crossfire is the newest product from ATI, it's also fair to compare it to the latest product from NVIDIA. Most people looking at dropping cash on a dual card setup want to look at the best card from both vendors that would be the x850 and the GTX.

Again techincally your 100% right. But with ATI next gen due out with in 10 days, then that arguement because a bit more hard to use as anyone in the right mind would be waiting...at least any one that is a SLI/xfire customer to begin with....would wait till they see what ATI has then make a choice.
 
Trepidati0n said:
When I first read the article I kept thinking "to little, to late"....but then after thinking about it and reading again it was just "to late". Honestly, nVidia cheated from a competition point of view since they borrowed the technology from 3dfx indirectly. Would I do the same thing...you BET! It is all about making money to them. So in this round...nVidia wins.

However, ATI has shown that they can do it another way and they can do it competitively (based upon equal tech aka. excluding 7800GTX). So...I'll wait and see.

-tReP
??

What about ATI and ArtX? Acquisition of another company's technology isn't cheating, it's just smart business!
 
I think ATI's attempt is too little, too late. It seems they attempted to rush the Crossfire technology to market in response to nVidia's SLI, but ran into many problems which is why we are just seeing it now. Their motherboards will also need to be a bit more feature-rich if they want to compete with the NF4 platform. With the X1800 right around the corner, no one in their right mind would shell out $$$ for an X850 master card. Maybe if the Crossfire platform with two X1800's under the hood gives people goosebumps, then they may have something to bring to the fair.

[soapbox] Personally, I don't think there is enough value in SLI or Crossfire to begin with. Getting customers to buy TWO video cards to put in their systems was a financial windfall for nVidia. Whoever came up with the idea must be getting paid pretty well these days. When the time comes that you need two video cards in your computer totalling around $1,000.00 well, that will be a sad day IMHO.
[/soapbox]


...........also, with all the reviews I read about Crossifre, seems like EVERY reviewer is recommending that people WAIT for the X1800. This tells me that the card may be a pleasant surprise for those of us waiting to upgrade to PCI-Express in anticipation of this card.
 
I read this review and asked myself (self?) two questions.......in the conclusion, the guys talked about "dumbed down" if you use a lesser card with the master....say an 800 blend.Why werent there any actual benchmarks with that combination????? Just for completeness sake?????
Most of all I kept asking myself why the guys that are clearly behind the 8 ball in this technology would screw with this when they have a brand new product line to release in about a week???? Who is gonna buy this...."almost as good as the 6800 Ultra SLI"????
Will the 1800 series cards run with this Crossfire MB???? If so, showing it off now aint such a bad idea, but tell people that.
Can you buy one of these set-ups today??????
Also.....to just pick a nit......In the part where Brent was discussing drivers.....when I loaded my second GTX for the first time and connected everything for SLI, it was NOT recognized. I had to go back into device manager and manually load the driver to the "new,second card" before the nVidia control panel would recognize/allow me to set up SLI.......the drivers did not automatically recognize my second card.
I also am experiencing very slow load times today, especially pictures......
I enjoyed the review very much....looking forward to the 1800 series and its crossfire reviews. :D
Oh yeah, Im really getting fatigued of hearing the ATI camp constantly saying....wait, just wait for our magic R520 or whatever......meanwhile Im really enjoying SLI ;)
 
You mention that image quality on the 7800 is much better.
Could you please post comparison screenshots.

My experience with the 7800:
TRAA doesnt work in most games - the IQ difference is ZERO with this feature - you need SSAA.

Textures shimmer like crazy (especially on the modes and games you tested with). Try just walking forward and backward in HL2, BF2 etc. Its really bad - when compared against a RADEON.

Thx
 
PRIME1 said:
As of this post you still can't buy a crossfire setup and there is no mention of "crossfire" drivers on the ATI site. So it's valid to compare unreleased drivers from NVIDIA with unreleased product from ATI.

Other poster's have addressed this one already, suffice to say crossfire is available.

PRIME1 said:
Since Crossfire is the newest product from ATI, it's also fair to compare it to the latest product from NVIDIA. Most people looking at dropping cash on a dual card setup want to look at the best card from both vendors that would be the x850 and the GTX.

Here's where I have problems... why did [H] not say "Buying either crossfire or 6800U's in SLI is silly because the 7800GTX whoops their butt"? IIncluding the 7800 told me one thing - neither NV or ATI's dual card setup is capable of beating the hottest single card on the market.

PRIME1 said:
You should be more upset at ATI for releasing this product so late, not a [H] for doing a review that compares it to products that came out during that delay.

ATI came out with a product that does things that NV currently does not do. It also came out with a product that was late to market and that had problems that NV did not have.

The [H] review did a good job of pointing out the problems and the late to market. The review did a lousy job of:
pointing out the benefits of Crossfire over SLI (yes there are benefits).
making assumptions without actual testing (i.e. a slower slave card).

On a personal level I found the inclusion of the 7800GTX beneficial, but the wording used misleading. According to [H]'s benchmarks, Crossfire was FASTER than the cards it is supposed to compete against, but this was glossed over. While it was sated that a single 7800GTX is a better deal than the ATI setup, what was glossed over is it is also a better deal than the 6800u setup.

Me.
 
JBark said:
Like you said in your conclusion, there really isn't a point to purchasing the current gen CrossFire cards, when a single 7800GTX is just as fast/faster, is cheaper overall, and has more features.
REALLY?

A 7800GTX is cheaper than an X800XL master card and mobo less ATI's $100 coupon?

Can you link me in on that deal, 'cause it sounds good to me!

IE - Please keep in mind when discussing price, nobody is buying an ENTIRE Crossfire system FROM SCRATCH. (At least, if they are, they are crazy). People interested in Crossfire are interested in it because they ALREADY HAVE an X800-series GPU and have the "$100 off Crossfire" coupon from registering their X800-series card on ATI's site.

That makes it QUITE A BIT cheaper than a 7800GTX, by my admittedly hasty calculations.
 
dderidex said:
REALLY?

A 7800GTX is cheaper than an X800XL master card and mobo less ATI's $100 coupon?

Can you link me in on that deal, 'cause it sounds good to me!

IE - Please keep in mind when discussing price, nobody is buying an ENTIRE Crossfire system FROM SCRATCH. (At least, if they are, they are crazy). People interested in Crossfire are interested in it because they ALREADY HAVE an X800-series GPU and have the "$100 off Crossfire" coupon from registering their X800-series card on ATI's site.

That makes it QUITE A BIT cheaper than a 7800GTX, by my admittedly hasty calculations.

Me thinks u right. With that scenario, the only Crossfire solution that would be more expensive than a single GTX would be the X850XT PE. You would need to buy one of those vid cards and a new mobo. Subtract that $100 coupon and it would still be more spendy than a 7800GTX. Problem is... that's a "coupon" so no one counts that in the actual price comparisons. Reviewers almost alwasy use retail prices. Generally speaking it's too difficult to keep up with all the deals and coupons floating around for any particular piece of hardware.

Anyway... I ain't gettin' Crossfire and I ain't gettin' SLI. Pointless for me.
 
im POSSIBLY intrested in getting the X-fire setup. since i already have an x850xt. if its worth it then i probably will. right now theres no need for it i think. i can play games fine at the settings i prefer. why fix something that isnt broken?

i cant wait to hear what other people have to say about the product when its out. i wanna hear [H]ard forum user reviews. right now with everybody argueing about ATI and how nVidia is the leader is like looking at monkeys flinging poo, its just funny.
 
dderidex said:
REALLY?

A 7800GTX is cheaper than an X800XL master card and mobo less ATI's $100 coupon?

Can you link me in on that deal, 'cause it sounds good to me!

IE - Please keep in mind when discussing price, nobody is buying an ENTIRE Crossfire system FROM SCRATCH. (At least, if they are, they are crazy). People interested in Crossfire are interested in it because they ALREADY HAVE an X800-series GPU and have the "$100 off Crossfire" coupon from registering their X800-series card on ATI's site.

That makes it QUITE A BIT cheaper than a 7800GTX, by my admittedly hasty calculations.
DDERIDEX,
I'm not knocking you or trying to start a flame war here, so please keep in mind that the following is based strictly on the mindset of what is an intelligent purchasing decision and what is not. It is also mean for everyone to read, and I'm simply using your example for my post.
wink.gif



It can also be hastily concluded that it would be smarter for a buyer to sell the X800-series card they have now and buy a 7800-series in place of buying a whole new motherboard and a second X800-series. Besides, the single 7800-series will perform the same or outperform dual X800-series cards, have more features, and isn't limited to resolution and refresh rate.

Why save a little money and get a faster 'downgraded' old-gen setup when it would be obviously smarter to get a new-gen card with a current feature set? This applies to the XI800 when it comes out, as it will hopefully be at least as fast as the 7800-series.

And I hate to throw around the tired SM3.0 and HDR thing, but this is a feature set that is becoming more and more a reality with games. If it wasn't, then it'd be apparent that ATI wouldn't have had to play catch-up and the XI800 probably wouldn't have them.

From a feature/generation standpoint, it would be like saying it's better to save money and:

1.) Get a second 5900 Ultra (let's say they are SLI/Crossfire capable, for the sake of this example. And because they lack many of the features introduced with the 6000-series which were carried over to the 7800-series) at $300, roughly the price of buying a second X850XT.

2.) Buying a new motherboard (and possibly cpu depending on the users current socket type) to support dual graphics cards.

3.) Maybe buy a new power supply that can feed them.

....Instead of buying a single 7800-series or XI800 series that will be tremendously faster, draw less power, has newer features being used in todays and tomorrows games, keeping the same motherboard/cpu/psu, and doesn't have lousy limitations (saying that with the possibility that the XI800 won't have the refresh/resolution issue).

Keep in mind for my hypothetical example above you have to:



  • Pretend that the 5900 Ultra would be equal to an X800-series in performance because of the generational and features differences.
  • Say that the cost of the motherboard would be equal to a CrossFire motherboard.
  • Say that a new cpu might be needed if the user needs to upgrade to a cpu compatible with the CrossFire board socket.
  • Say that a new power supply may be needed because of the amperage draw that 2 cards will make.
Make sense? To over-simplify: When comparing performance and features to a 7800-series card and (hopefully, if the features are comparable to the 7800) the new XI800-series, when the user wants to run dual graphics cards, the X800-series is a waste of money. If the X800-series based CrossFire solution was "all that", then there wouldn't be a $100 rebate so soon.
 
I have been on the ATI band wagon for a while now (since last November). I had a GF4 TI 4600 and I loved it. It was getting old and I went out and bought the best card on the market at the time. X850XT-PE. I was blown away. But then the 7800GTX comes out and X850XT-PE just couldn't keep up... Hell 6800U SLI couldn't keep up to that card.

Then 4 months ago amongst the rumors of CrossFire I hear that they are going to release it for the X800, X850 series and I jumped for joy. Now I can get the power out of my card when it starts to get left behind.

But after reading that review plus the one from THG, seeing the Benchmarks, I think ATI is failing big time. Releasing CrossFire this late in the game is a mistake, SLI has too strong a foot hold, releasing it for last generations video card (X800, X850) is a big mistake when 7800GTX SLI is already out and kicking ass.

They should have held off and not wasted there funds on creating a SLI compettion aimed at a generation of cards that is already replaced.

I was excited about CrossFire and I can be quoted as saying "I will be buying it for sure". But when that means replacing my NF4 SLI board, buying a Xpress 200 (which I have never liked) and geting another card that together still can't touch the 7800GTX SLI... I am not gonna do it.

ATI has created something that can beat 6800U SLI, but thats a given, the X850XT is a far better single card than the 6800U anyway... What did you think you would get when you put to X850s together?
But the point is moot... who gives a fuck if Crossfire can provide new AA, new rendering and new FPS levels when the 7800GTX can beat it big time and with better AA and stability.

I am dissapointed, big time, ATI has droped the soap again and they just can't seem to pick it up.

Lets all hope that X1800 is a sucsess and that Crossfire can do for it what SLI did for the 7800GTX.

/Rant
 
Doodle said:
The [H] review did a good job of pointing out the problems and the late to market. The review did a lousy job of:
pointing out the benefits of Crossfire over SLI (yes there are benefits).
I read a few other reviews and I didn't come across any of the benifits you are claiming to know about that [H] didn't list. Please list for me the benifits that were missed in this review and link me the review that didn't miss them. Thank you.
 
DocFaustus said:
I read a few other reviews and I didn't come across any of the benifits you are claiming to know about that [H] didn't list. Please list for me the benifits that were missed in this review and link me the review that didn't miss them. Thank you.
What he said. and......
Please for those of me that are blind or stupid or both.....where can you buy this whisp of vapour????? I sure cant find it anywhere????
 
I think tofay is a black day for those who realize that having two strong competitors in the video GPU industry is good for everyone. While initially it appeared that buying 3dfx IP and hiring their engineers was a load for nVidia it really paid off in the long run. I have this sad feeling about ATI that I got when 3dfx was starting the Voodoo 5/6000. I hope I'm wrong

I was recently faced with an upgrade decisiion in the last 60 days and after taking a serious look at ATI Crossfire (I had a 9800) I decided to go with nVIdia as the SLI platform had matured and to all apppearances it and the nForce4 platform worked great. The review by [H} just reinforced my view that it was the right decision


I hope ATI can improve on crossfire and make it competitive for the sake of the consumers. It will be a very sad day if the failure of Crossfire kills ATI
 
I like ATI I really do.. But the only reason, I can think of that they would release this, is because they said they would and maybee to prove that the tech works.. If it ran on the n-force4 mobos, it might be a little less pointless.. X850 xt crossfire is not a good solution at this point in time..

The performance was good.. I expected it would generaly out perform a 6800U sli setup because, well ummm, an x850xt pe generaly out performs a 6800U.... I expect they will be very competitive with the 7800 series when 520 crossfire comes out..

I still think that they need to find a way to get this to work on NF4 boards, and Intels dual pci-e boards.. Otherwise they may have a hard time selling.. I currently don't have pci-e mobo.. So when I upgrade this rig in a month or 2, I might be tempted to stay ATI.. But if I already had a NF4 sli mobo, I wouldn't even think about it.. I would go with NV.. This could be a hard sell for ATI
 
I'm one of Nvidia's and ATI's prime buyers - I'm looking to upgrade my entire system, lock stock and two smokin' video cards. I use a Sony FW900 (24" widescreen CRT) and would be horiified at the thought of spending £800 (the X850 master card is advertised in the UK for £425 alone!) in video cards to have it capped at 1600x1200 @ 60hz - simply no way. I was holding out for CrossFire, but feel like the kid who's mom promised him a shiny bike for Crossmas (pun), but got a pair of socks instead. With holes in 'em.

After the [H] review confirmed the bombshell of the res and refresh caps, the review went on like - we had probs with this game, with this game, with game and so on. Aw, come on ATI.

However, this X850 CrapFire isn't aimed at me. It's aimed at those who are already on the ATI bus. Those people who in six months can by a X800 or X850 CrapFire master card on ebay for £100 to complement their setup. By that time all the bugs in the rendering modes, games and drivers will be sorted. But that feckin' 60hz cap remains so they'll be either blind or suffering from migraines...

So, the X1800 is due for release. 10 days isn't long to wait too see how that fairs after we have waited so long already. That card had better be:

- NO 1600x1200 60hz limiting
- NO 1600x1200 60hz limiting (it's so important it's worth saying twice)
- aimed squarely and aggressively pitched at the 7800GTX and 7800GTX-SLI
- be cost effective comparing it too the 7800GTX (if you get more, you expect to pay more)
- utilise all the current technology

There's more to the above list but I've gone on enough all ready. ATI, are you listening to your market?

ATI - Another Technology Indisposed
 
Doodle said:
Other poster's have addressed this one already, suffice to say crossfire is available.
Please post a link to an in stock master card and crossfire motherboard. Good luck.
Doodle said:
Here's where I have problems... why did [H] not say "Buying either crossfire or 6800U's in SLI is silly because the 7800GTX whoops their butt"? IIncluding the 7800 told me one thing - neither NV or ATI's dual card setup is capable of beating the hottest single card on the market.
1st the 6800's came out almost 2 years ago. You can get a 7800GT for about the price of a X850XT so you could compare those in a dual setup. It's almost pointless to say that ATI's new technology is almost as fast as NVIDIA's old technology.
Doodle said:
ATI came out with a product that does things that NV currently does not do. It also came out with a product that was late to market and that had problems that NV did not have.
Like what? And it's still not out yet.

Doodle said:
pointing out the benefits of Crossfire over SLI (yes there are benefits).
Like what?

Doodle said:
On a personal level I found the inclusion of the 7800GTX beneficial, but the wording used misleading. According to [H]'s benchmarks, Crossfire was FASTER than the cards it is supposed to compete against, but this was glossed over. While it was sated that a single 7800GTX is a better deal than the ATI setup, what was glossed over is it is also a better deal than the 6800u setup.
Me.
If you think ATI should be competing against the 6800's they are 2 years too late. Very few people (if any) who buy an SLI setup today would buy a 6800u when you can get a 7800GT for $350.

Crossfire was a rushed and flawed response to SLI and it will be years before they get it right.
 
If the 1600x1200 60hz limitation is related to the dongle, it doesn't bode well for R520 Crossfire. Would it be possible to release a new sort of dongle?

Hehe. "baited breath"
 
Tytanium said:
Uh...what? SLI does not support multiple monitors. This is a long known fact.

Ah damn, I guess I wasn't paying attention to the articles here at the [H] (I got too many busted computers to fix and class I rarely have time to read anything)....that RIGHTEOUSLY pisses me off, my card does dual monitors by itself, but it sucks that just hooking it up to a second card negates the feature. I don't even care weather or not the second card can have displays (though that would RULE) I just want 2 monitors hooked up to my PC.

I guess those PCI slots on my motherboard I haven't used DO serve a purpose after all....a THIRD video card.
 
Doodle said:
1.) pointing out the benefits of Crossfire over SLI (yes there are benefits).


2.) making assumptions without actual testing (i.e. a slower slave card).

1.) Please point out the benefits you see, thanks.

2.) We didn't make assumptions, it is fact that the MASTER card will 'dumb itself down' to the SLAVE card. For example if you use an X800 XT Master Card with an X800 Pro Slave card the Master Card becomes a 12 pipeline video card with a lower frequency. This is how CrossFire works and was explained in our initial CrossFire tech preview.
 
DocFaustus said:
I read a few other reviews and I didn't come across any of the benifits you are claiming to know about that [H] didn't list. Please list for me the benifits that were missed in this review and link me the review that didn't miss them. Thank you.

I never said [H] didn't list them, I said I was dissappointed in the review because [H] glossed over them.

Just look at [H]'s review... in nearly every benchmark Crossfire outperforms SLI for equivalent cards. Every review out there says:
a) 850 in Xfire beats 6800 in SLI.
b) 7800 in single mode beats them both.

Once again - [H]'s review - Xfire is currently capable of using mis-matched cards, SLI is not.

Me.

Edit:
Sorry Brent - you were told the card would dumb itself down, but would it have been that hard to run a bench or two to see if that in fact happened, and if it did how much it would dumb itself down? I mean how many editorials have you written about "we're never going to trust an OEM again until we can actually see the results".

As to the benefits they're there in your review. If in two weeks the next gen of ATI cards comes out and they are as good as the 7800 (in SLI and/or Xfire) does that suddenly make Xfire a better platform? Of course not! The Xfire system is not without it's problems but to say it's a worse system because of the 7800 series of cards is silly - it's apples and oranges.

Edit2
Christ - I lurk for three years, last ATI card I ran was a 7200 - I just don't find the review balanced.

You guys (who disagree with me) see this as a comparison of video cards - I'm sorry but SLI and Crossfire are not video cards, they are platforms.
 
Many people use price, or release date to compare equivelent cards. Not "well we have been so damn slow to market we are still trying to compete with something from last year". I think you are really trying to hold onto a thread for bitching that ATi's newest shit to date is busy duking it out with nVidia's old stuff and cannot hold a torch to a single slot solution of this generation. Hell even the 7800GTX has been out long enough that this launch would be compared late to it too.

Edit: And yes, I am arguing on what should be a platform difference comparison only on the basis of video cards, but that is because you keep bringing them up to support your side of the debate.
 
The simple facts are the 7800 GTX is widely availble and a lot cheaper in price now than the suggested retail price. It would be silly NOT to include X850 XT CrossFire to it.

People don't limit themselves and compare cards ONLY to what the generation of cards it is "suppose" to be equivelent to. People compare cards to what is availble NOW.

When you walk into a store and sitting side-by-side is an X850 XT Master Card, and next to it is a 7800 GTX, the better buy would be the 7800 GTX.

If you don't understand that then I don't know what else to say.
 
I'm not that impressed at all. Same kind of disapointment when SLI was first announced. Now that Nvidia is pretty much a year down the road and SLI has matured, it's obviously the better choice for [H]ardcore gamers. Crossfire has a lot of stuff to fix be4 I'll even consider it. 60hz refresh limit, AA limitations (crashing when forced), no Super Sampling, bugs bugs bugs, and the dongle. Bleh come on ATi. You can, and should, do better.

My new rig (Spring 06) will have two of some1's cards in it. If Crossfire is still misfiring come next year......my loyalty to ATi may be lost till they can win it back.
 
I prefer ATI IQ and drivers, thats all that keeps me from Nvidia. I personally am dissapointed they felt they had to go the way of CrossFire just to compete with Nvidia. Obviously its rushed but will develop over time as SLI. Personally i would of loved to see them go the way of the MAXX of the past and bring back 1 card running 2 VPU, something unique at least that they could work with to keep their dignity. Or far more robust single core cards to compete with Nvidia SLI. Just think if the R520 was able to compete at a respectible level with 2 Nvidia cards how rediculous Nvidia would look. But i guess they wanted to go with whats safe. I personally dont think i'll be touching it simply because i dont use high enough resolutions and 1 card perfectly justifies most resolutions/settings. I see dual card setups for gaming really a desperate measure to bleed more money out of the consumer. With the performance gains we see yearly, it seems pure folly in most conditions to try justify 1200 or 1000 on just the cards. Now we have PPU's coming in the mix. How much more can people take before they simply say enough is enough? Has it come down to HDR or bragging rights so much that we really need these options? I guess so. One has to wonder how ATI can make cores like the Xenos and how Nvidia is going to make something like the RSX promising double performance equivalent to 2x 7800gtx or 2x R520, yet we the enthusiasts are taking IQ loss over time in core succession, in the case of Nvidia, accepting rushed hardware in the case of ATI, and paying much MORE in the end. And PC games have also reduced in quality. Alot of great companies have gone out of business along the way and now we're lucky to get a dozen great titles a year. But we pay huge premiums? Doesnt make sense to me. As soon as the Xbox what ever or playstation what ever can connect to the internet and run OS's like a computer (PS3 should be able to run what, Tiger?) i think PC's are going to go completely extinct. I'd much rather slap down 400 or 500 for a console every 2 years and pay the rest for good software then spend 2000 for a computer and be lucky to fully utilize my hardware in something other then a benchmark before its obsoleted by the next best thing, which im sure will be cheaper.

Yea it looks sexy, yea you can now yell "IM IN DEBT WOOHOO!". Yea you can now play on a monitor the size of a TV at the highest settings. But we arent gaining anything performance per dollar, i think both companies have gotten lazy if anything. The sooner dual cards get extinct the better for us.
 
BTW, on that screenshot with the ghosting mentioned in HL2, well what it looks like to me seems like the cards were rendering out of sync, if that can even happen.. :confused:
 
Bulletproof said:
BTW, on that screenshot with the ghosting mentioned in HL2, well what it looks like to me seems like the cards were rendering out of sync, if that can even happen.. :confused:

I don't think so, it renders in tiles right?
 
Shifra said:
As soon as the Xbox what ever or playstation what ever can connect to the internet and run OS's like a computer (PS3 should be able to run what, Tiger?) i think PC's are going to go completely extinct.

Good luck with that one...
:rolleyes:

 
hahahah Brent made an ASSumption lol :D

you assume someting it makes an ass outta you and me!! that's what my mom used to yell between beatings!!
 
I'm going to use Shifra's example to make some points. Thanks for your thoughts, Shifra!

Shifra said:
I personally dont think i'll be touching it simply because i dont use high enough resolutions and 1 card perfectly justifies most resolutions/settings. I see dual card setups for gaming really a desperate measure to bleed more money out of the consumer.
Some people may see that 1 card perfectly justifies most resolutions/settings for a particular need. But please keep in mind that this is [H]ard|Forum, an enthusiasts message board. People that have an interest in the latest technology, want it, or own it will frequent this forum. It is no ones place to knock or put down the best of state of the art consumer computing technology here. Put down CrossFire all you want, because according to the reviews, it's currently not the best.
wink.gif


Shifra said:
With the performance gains we see yearly, it seems pure folly in most conditions to try justify 1200 or 1000 on just the cards. Now we have PPU's coming in the mix. How much more can people take before they simply say enough is enough?
Again, this is an enthusiasts site, so enthusiats willing to shell out lots of money for the best hardware will be the majority here.

Shifra said:
Has it come down to HDR or bragging rights so much that we really need these options? I guess so.
No, it's not about HDR or bragging rights alone. It's about having hardware that can utilize this new technology being implemented in the latest apps and games. Again, it's the need for companies to compete at the state of the art level that leads to perpetual development of future products for we, the consumers.

Shifra said:
One has to wonder how ATI can make cores like the Xenos and how Nvidia is going to make something like the RSX promising double performance equivalent to 2x 7800gtx or 2x R520, yet we the enthusiasts are taking IQ loss over time in core succession, in the case of Nvidia, accepting rushed hardware in the case of ATI, and paying much MORE in the end.
We are not taking IQ losses over time. Compare the image quality of a then state of the art DX7 gpu to a now state of the art DX9 gpu. The differences are truly staggering. While I agree that the cost of an enthusiast-class video card is expensive, I only say that because I don't have that kind of money to burn. It would be very nice to have a pair of 7800GTXs, but in all reality I have to make due with what my budget allows (a pair of 6600GTs). But because my budget doesn't allow it, I'm in no position to criticize the companies for making it or the consumers for buying it. Just think how much they could charge for it if they really wanted to. It's kind of like the old intel Xeon Slot 1 cpu. I remember when the 850MHz model cost $2200. Now we can get a dual core cpu for just a fraction of that! Same thing applies to GPUs. Most enthusiasts paid a premium price for GeForce3 and 4 series cards not much under what a 7800GT or GTX is priced at today. We of limited budget need to thank the early adopters for buying the new technology in mass quantity thus keeping prices down for the rest of us. If that doesn't do it for you, then take a look at monitor prices. Remember back when a 21" CRT would cost about $1500? Now we can get a 24" LCD with PIP for well under $1000. Hell, we can get a 21" CRT for under $350!

Shifra said:
And PC games have also reduced in quality. Alot of great companies have gone out of business along the way and now we're lucky to get a dozen great titles a year. But we pay huge premiums? Doesnt make sense to me.
I don't see where these top dozen titles a year have reduced in quality over time. Compare the graphics and overall game play/storyline of Doom to Doom 3 and Half Life to Half Life 2. That's just to name a couple. The game quality of those 2 sequels is greatly better than the originals (my opinion, but from what I've read here just at HardForum, most others would probably agree).

Also, think back. Think way back. Think 8086/80286 era. Remember how much games like Autoduel on a single 1.44MB floppy used to cost as advertised in something like the thick Computer Shopper catalogs? They were on average about $65-80 each. Now we are paying $40-55 for a brand new game on DVD. Hardly a huge premium in comparison.

Shifra said:
As soon as the Xbox what ever or playstation what ever can connect to the internet and run OS's like a computer (PS3 should be able to run what, Tiger?) i think PC's are going to go completely extinct. I'd much rather slap down 400 or 500 for a console every 2 years and pay the rest for good software then spend 2000 for a computer and be lucky to fully utilize my hardware in something other then a benchmark before its obsoleted by the next best thing, which im sure will be cheaper.
If all a person uses a computer for is basic internet browsing and gaming, then that person should save his/her money and buy a console instead of a computer that does so much more than just that. At least with a PC, we can choose which OS to run out of a wide selection. And a computer has a big advantage over a console: they can be upgraded or built to suit the buyers needs and budget.

Shifra said:
Yea it looks sexy, yea you can now yell "IM IN DEBT WOOHOO!". Yea you can now play on a monitor the size of a TV at the highest settings. But we arent gaining anything performance per dollar, i think both companies have gotten lazy if anything. The sooner dual cards get extinct the better for us.
I feel that companies have not gotten lazy. I also feel that no other piece of computer hardware has advanced technologically at the fast rate that it has than the 3D GPU over the last 8 years.
 
ATI has 2 things to do to save it's ass,

1. Fix all the problems in the review ASAP

2. The new cores need to beat the absolute snot out of the 7800's in SLI. Not equal them, beat them in every game on the planet, and bad too. Period.

If this is not done well then they just wasted their time and money. There is no room for failure this time around cause even an ATI !!!!!! like myself will go nVidia next time.
 
Best review on the net - kudos. I'll wait till r520 is released in a week till I pass my judgement on CrossFire. If they did not get rid of the res-limit in this generation I consider it no option compared to SLI. Other than that it seems to offer the same/similar performance gains.
 
Back
Top