Hard to find AGP cards now :(

Riptide_NVN said:
That isn't exactly proof IMO. There is probably profit to be found there, but they find a greater opportunity in forcing us to buy one of their PCI-E motherboards along with a new graphics card. Double whammy so to speak.
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NF4 is not more expenisve than NF3 was. NF4 SLI is though, but you dont HAVE to buy that set.
 
Yah, I wouldn't spend the $$ on an AGP card.

I'd upgrade to PCI-E first.

You can get a 7800GT for about $285. The 7800GT's can OC to stock GTX speeds.

-fro
 
OK ...... where's that PCIe ready board for my Athlon? :p

But seriously, you both forgot that many will need to upgrade their CPU too. That will add
some to the cost I'd say. Not to mention that certain high ends boards require a native 24pin
PSU. Adding even more to the final cost.

For me the 6800nu (AGP) was a better choice than getting a whole new platform, CPU and all.
And I'm sure many are in the same boat.
 
thats fine. midrange AGP cards are still selling. high end ones arent - honestly, who would buy a 6800U AGP at this point in the game instead of going PCIe and getting the 7800GT for cheaper? the 6800GT can be had for around $250 in PCIe, its more expensive in AGP, but of course thats a supply and demand thing. there is still a demand for the cards, its just not big enough.

BTW - the move to PCIe kicked my ass too. i now have a 6800GT in my athlon XP and a 6800GT flashed to U in my main rig. the boards for AGP/939 sucked ass, or i wouldve stuck with AGP for the time being. (i danced that jig for a while, andi was stick and tierd of it)

im a poor college student, so dont think im rich or anything either :p
 
lithium726 said:
NF4 is not more expenisve than NF3 was. NF4 SLI is though, but you dont HAVE to buy that set.
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NF3 was expensive for a while. The Neo2 was over $170 when it first came out and stayed up there for a while. It was the VIA that stayed relatively cheap even at intro.
 
Riptide_NVN said:
NF3 was expensive for a while. The Neo2 was over $170 when it first came out and stayed up there for a while. It was the VIA that stayed relatively cheap even at intro.
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which is my point... if NV still wanted to milk us with NF3/AGP, they would. they get the same amount of cash out of it
 
lithium726 said:
thats fine. midrange AGP cards are still selling. high end ones arent - honestly, who would buy a 6800U AGP at this point in the game instead of going PCIe and getting the 7800GT for cheaper?
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The real question here is that if given a choice when you already have an AGP system would you buy a 7800GT in PCI-E or AGP? IMO had many people been given the choice they would've just upgraded their cards and stuck with their current motherboards. SLI users would ofcourse moved away for obvious reasons.

Strictly speaking, there are no high end AGP cards right now in the first place so naturally they aren't selling. They don't exist. ;)
the 6800GT can be had for around $250 in PCIe, its more expensive in AGP, but of course thats a supply and demand thing. there is still a demand for the cards, its just not big enough.
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Funny though, the X850XTPE is cheaper in AGP than the PCIe version.
 
Riptide_NVN said:
Funny though, the X850XTPE is cheaper in AGP than the PCIe version.
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ive only been watching NV cards recently :p

although the x1800xl looks pretty nice...
 
lithium726 said:
which is my point... if NV still wanted to milk us with NF3/AGP, they would. they get the same amount of cash out of it
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Not necessarily... Most of us already had a 939 or 754 board. They needed to push this new chipset and accompanying bus (and ofcourse high end cards) in order to trigger a lot of us into buying yet another motherboard from them. Otherwise we would've just stuck with what we had already in most cases (IMO ofcourse).
 
but yet again, PCIe is cheaper and simpler to design and develop for, which results in cheaper boards and more money for R&D (instead of wasting it manufacuting AGP bridge chips for new cards)

of course, last gen AGP cards are different, but i think we're both partly right. the industry is definatly pushing AGP away and embracing PCIe, but at the same time, there are some big reasons to do this, its not all about bandwidth
 
lithium726 said:
but yet again, PCIe is cheaper and simpler to design and develop for, which results in cheaper boards and more money for R&D (instead of wasting it manufacuting AGP bridge chips for new cards)
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Maybe next generation we'll start seeing those savings. So far I don't see a discernable difference in pricing on these new boards vs. NF3 or K8T800. The top end board still costs over $150 in most cases and the lower end stuff ends up around $80-125. Same as before.

BTW I just want to reiterate that I don't expect them to continually produce AGP cards forever - it just would've been nice to get one more run in and that's it. So I'm just disappointed. Not really angry though. I've actually been more upset with some of the comments I've seen in these discussions than at the companies themselves. I know why they are doing this, but the attitude some people display is just unbelievable IMO. To be clear I'm not necessarily talking about you in particular, you have been pretty civil about this. But there are others that I would like to punch in the mouth. :p
of course, last gen AGP cards are different, but i think we're both partly right. the industry is definatly pushing AGP away and embracing PCIe, but at the same time, there are some big reasons to do this, its not all about bandwidth
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Oh I agree though others have also pointed out that it seems kinda curious, this whole situation, when you have one hell of a time finding cheap 1x expansion cards for practically any sort of peripheral. For the most part right now the only cards you buy for PCI-E is video.
 
Susquehannock said:
OK ...... where's that PCIe ready board for my Athlon? :p

But seriously, you both forgot that many will need to upgrade their CPU too. That will add
some to the cost I'd say. Not to mention that certain high ends boards require a native 24pin
PSU. Adding even more to the final cost.

For me the 6800nu (AGP) was a better choice than getting a whole new platform, CPU and all.
And I'm sure many are in the same boat.
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and you cant forget those of us with a family to support. I can hardly justify buying a $200 video card much less a new proc and mobo to boot.
 
Personally I'm not ready to give up my S754 A64 3000, which is on an AGP board.

So I picked up an x800xl AGP. No problem. It performs like a champ with tons of goodies turned on at my 1280x1024 LCD native res.

I guess I could have bought an S754 motherboard with PCI-E and a PCI-E card, but that wouldn't have given me dual memory channels of the S939 with a new processor, or the room to move into a better 939 processor.

The 939 is almost dead on the high end anyways. AMD is putting the S940 M2 chips out in the 1st Q 2006. So we'll have Sempron and older A64s on S754 (which go up to 3700), the 939 A64s and X2s at up to 4000, and newer stuff on M2. Bah! Just pick one already!

My 754 Asus motherboard supports up to a 3700 rated processor. That is still damn fast. The 8x AGP bus was never saturated with a single card. The only thing an S754 can't do is dual core, which is still WAY too expensive and worthless for most of us. It's all marketing baby. They gotta push the new product, they just don't have a use for it yet.

I figure I'll just skip the 939 generation since it's almost done and I'll get an M2 based system in early 2007.

Moving to a new SLI board (even without buying the extra vid card) is expensive.
New processor, new PS (need that extra 12V rail on the SLI connector right?), new MB, RAM in pairs for dual channel (DDR2 on the M2 boards), new vid card (x2 if you SLI).

That's a lot of coin for not a lot of performance, unless you SLI.

With the millions of fast AGP based systems around I'd be suprised if the 7800 series and 1x00 series didn't get mid range AGP parts at bit later on. (They do have to keep nudging people to get off the AGP though, or we'll be dual format forever.)
 
vodkajello said:
The 939 is almost dead on the high end anyways. AMD is putting the S940 M2 chips out in the 1st Q 2006. So we'll have Sempron and older A64s on S754 (which go up to 3700), the 939 A64s and X2s at up to 4000, and newer stuff on M2. Bah! Just pick one already!
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er.. no. first H of 06.. M2 will probably be out sometime in the summer, and avaliable in teh 3rd quarter. 939 has quite a bit of life left.
My 754 Asus motherboard supports up to a 3700 rated processor. That is still damn fast. The 8x AGP bus was never saturated with a single card. The only thing an S754 can't do is dual core, which is still WAY too expensive and worthless for most of us. It's all marketing baby. They gotta push the new product, they just don't have a use for it yet.
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says you. i saw an 18% performance increase in Far Cry JUST from NV's dual core drivers
 
QFT : vodkajello! I was recently given a Sempron 3400+ (yes! there is a God! :D ) and given that I already have the rest of the stuff (RAM, HDD, case, etc.) I figure I'll just switch to a 754 PCI-E board. After all, an OC'ed Sempron 3400+ (stock = 2GHz, 256KB L2) shouldn't need to be upgraded for quite a good while.
 
Nvidia has said it could make the 7800 in AGP variation, the problem is the cost will make demand low, thus no profit.You would easily be looking at 500$ for it. I think everyone should just hang on for atleast another half year when the 7800 will drop price due to sales. when the 7800GTX drops to about 300$ i bet there would be a higher chance of seeing a AGP version.

It always seems like its marketings fault but its more engineering, i mean, how many different motherboards have you had to buy to get that new CPU running, most of us seem like we are changing CPU sockets faster than our socks. I still remember socket7 when it was new. then Slot1/A, socket 370 and so on.

I'd only warrant an upgrade if you had bought a really cheap motherboard that doesn't utilize the CPU fully and a had a cheap AGP card to begin with, i have done this for my P4 and only Single channel memory and 5700Ultra AGP on the motherboard so i will most likely upgrade both as soon as money allows. Luckily atleast you can get a Albatron with a single PCI-E 16x slot for S478
 
RogueTrip said:
Nvidia has said it could make the 7800 in AGP variation, the problem is the cost will make demand low, thus no profit
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Where did you read this? Link?
 
ATI said it wasn't going to make the x800xl in AGP when it first came out either.... things change due to market demand. If there are a million AGP owners asking them for resonably fast board with the latest features, they'll make one. After all they already have the bridge chips....

I can't wait for $250 7800GTXs.
 
Until ATI officially comes out and says no AGP X1800's then we don't really know. It looks doubtful right now but there is nothing certain. We have an Inquirer story saying they cancelled but let's face it, noone will believe it if that is the only source for the information.
 
Riptide_NVN said:
Until ATI officially comes out and says no AGP X1800's then we don't really know. It looks doubtful right now but there is nothing certain. We have an Inquirer story saying they cancelled but let's face it, noone will believe it if that is the only source for the information.
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Thing is, even if they are coming, it's not until some time next year.
 
lithium726 said:
ok, so how many people do you think would buy a $300-500 video card and not have the money to get a $50-100 motherboard?

seroiusly, anyone upgrading an AGP system at this point just needs to spend the extra cash.

AGP is fine performance wise for anyone still using it. that doesnt mean you invest a pretty large amount of cash in an aging platform.

the fact taht PCIe has a 35% penetration rate already is damn good, and wouldnt have happened if all the devs were pushing it. AGP didnt get accepted taht quickly.

the amount of people still willing to purchase AGP cards is not offset by the cost of manufacutring them.
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So I want a high end card and I have an extra $50-$100. Want to tell me how I can replace my dual opteron board with 133mhz pci-x with a $50-$100 motherboard with pci-e ?

Rob
 
Robstar said:
So I want a high end card and I have an extra $50-$100. Want to tell me how I can replace my dual opteron board with 133mhz pci-x with a $50-$100 motherboard with pci-e ?

Rob
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want to tell me why youre so short on funds and running a dual opteron rig?

that example is so far out there i doubt nv or ati have even considered it. opterons are designed for serving, not gaming, remember?
 
lithium726 said:
want to tell me why youre so short on funds and running a dual opteron rig?

that example is so far out there i doubt nv or ati have even considered it. opterons are designed for serving, not gaming, remember?
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I think this speaks for itself :)
I have a dual opteron rig. Opteron rigs cost money. Spending money = not having money, hence no money to buy ANOTHER $450+ motherboard and a $350+ graphics card.

The point I'm trying to make is there are GOOD reasons to keep making high end agp cards. Not all high-end boxes are pci-e.

Rob

P.S. Tell everyone in the amd processor forum that the socket939 opterons are for "serving not gaming" ;)
 
WhoBeDaPlaya said:
OC'ed Semprons are for gaming too :D
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Ohh, are they ever! Dare I say...best budget chip ever?! I mean...2.7Ghz from a 1.6Ghz chip that's just a cache-cut A64? That's what I call sexy. Sexy indeed.
 
Robstar said:
P.S. Tell everyone in the amd processor forum that the socket939 opterons are for "serving not gaming" ;)
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i meant that theyre sold by AMD as server chips. nothing more, nothing less.

btw, dual opteron boards dont really go down in value too terribly much last time i checked, just sell the shit if you wanna upgrade
 
Susquehannock said:
OK ...... where's that PCIe ready board for my Athlon? :p

But seriously, you both forgot that many will need to upgrade their CPU too. That will add
some to the cost I'd say. Not to mention that certain high ends boards require a native 24pin
PSU. Adding even more to the final cost.

For me the 6800nu (AGP) was a better choice than getting a whole new platform, CPU and all.
And I'm sure many are in the same boat.
Click to expand...

Not all would need to upgrade CPU and if you are getting a 9800 pro-type card and your CPU sucks, you would probably want to upgrade your CPU anyways, regardless of a new mobo.

The only extra expense is the new PSU. For example, I just got my Fortron 530 no more than 6 months ago and I am now thinking about upgrading to PCI-E, which would involve buying a new PSU as well.

It is an expense, but it is also an investment into the future. New video cards are going to be on PCI-E and the S939 CPU's will still be around for over a year or more even after M2's come out. The 24 pin PSU should be the standard for many years.

So for most of us gamers. Upgrading NOW to a S939 PCI-E 24 pin board would be worth it due to upgrading again within 1.5 years and by that time the new M2 socket will be out.

-fro
 
I am hoping once the Holiday shopping gets in full swing video card companies are going to want to unload some of there AGP cards still in inventory.
 
lithium726 said:
i meant that theyre sold by AMD as server chips. nothing more, nothing less.

btw, dual opteron boards dont really go down in value too terribly much last time i checked, just sell the shit if you wanna upgrade
Click to expand...


actually they are sold as server / WORKSTATION chips. i also have a dually opteron with agp and was forced to buy under what i wanted just to get a bit more performance. so instead of spending $300 i spent $99 and got a 6800le which incidently was the ONLY 6800 based card i could find in agp for under $200. i was not about to spend $229 for a vanilla agp 6800 or worse yet $300 for a 6800gt in agp either. those prices were the best i could find after searching ebay, craigslist and newegg, zzf, monarch, pricewatch etc.. i was running around in circles for 3 days straight trying to find an acceptably priced 6800 card. all the agp variants were $50-$150 over the pci-e version prices.

for me spending $550 for a new dual core cpu and mobo to save $75 on a 6800 gt was stupid. i ended up finding a refurb that came in stock at new egg for a hella low price and it can overclock/unlock to 6800 gt speeds and pipe counts so i'm kinda happy everything else was outrageously priced so i was forced to wait for this one to pop up in stock.

but the agp cards are out there they just cost a lot more compared to pci-e versions. i can live with 6800 gt speeds but some may want the extra that is only at 7800gtx in pci-e. that upgrade would cost someone like me roughly $1000 just to upgrade my video card i have to get a new dual core cpu and motherboard for a workstation and then spend the $500 for the video card. that will cost me plenty of $$$. no moving away from agp completely is a future upgrade right now it is way to expensive.

and yes there are several reasons to have an opteron in an everyday gaming machine if you use it for more than just gaming.
 
banGerprawN said:
Ohh, are they ever! Dare I say...best budget chip ever?! I mean...2.7Ghz from a 1.6Ghz chip that's just a cache-cut A64? That's what I call sexy. Sexy indeed.
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I'm hoping that the Sempron 3400+ will be able to be pushed further (without the unfortunate need for insane HTTs). Have the Sempy and NV8 coming in next weekend - I know what I'm going to be doing next Friday night :D
 
lol i bought a agp card looking for a agp pc, no good though
 
WhoBeDaPlaya said:
Why worry, it's not like PCI-E users can get their hands on it either :p (at least not for <=$200)
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lol.. that is a perspective..
 
I guess I'm not an enthusiast since I'm (more or less) on a 24 month cycle for major upgrades. The next one (2006) will be a major one- M2, dual core, ddr2, PCIe and the 'stuff' to support it.

I still run a 9800Pro just fine (mostly). Sure I'm no longer running with all of the eye candy in what I like to play; mainly flight sims. Im generally held back by texture ram at this point.

I'm still comfirtable whith what I have. When you get older and have life responsibilites you just do not have the cash for the PC as often, especailly when the wife controls the money. I look for the best personal ROI, which is a big part of skipping vid card cycles for me. Theyare a large investment- nearly as much (and more at the top tier) as a kick ass CPU/mobo now.

That's not to say that I don't want a new rig today :) I'd love one, but I'll spend money elsewhere for now like 2 weeks (and 3 islands) in Hawaii :D Plus I just built a media room with killer Home Theater.
 
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