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[H]orde Rewards Program Revised

Discussion in 'Distributed Computing' started by Skillz, Apr 14, 2017.

  1. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Okay guys, I've been informed that we do have a benefit here at [H] for members who participate in Folding@Home. It's been here since 2007 according to this thread here. Basically, back in 2007 after you hit 500,000 points for F@H you were given a free year subscription to General Mayhem our off-topic sub forum here. At 1 million points you'll get a second free year and at 1.5 million you earned yourself a life time membership. Everyone started at 0 regardless of past points.

    Kyle_Bennett has given us the go ahead in the WCG Challenge 3 thread to reinstate this. However, since things have changed a LOT in terms of points sicne 2007 we need to come up with some new milestones.

    Additionally, I'd like to know if we should keep this to F@H strictly or can we also include BOINC projects such as World Community Grid.

    So let's discuss this here.

    Should we include previous points or should the points start at 0 once we come to an agreement?
    How many points do each milestone require? 1 year, 2 year and lifetime milestones.

    Pocatello and Gilthanis are the [H]orde go to guys, so I'd like to get input from both of you as well. Not trying to step on any toes around here.
     
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  2. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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    Well... FAH is the only official project coming from Kyle. Earlier we all kinda discussed opening things up to WCG which we kinda came to a conclusion on. However, that was just the team saying that and not Kyle. Since this is an award from Kyle, it will still need his approval for end results.

    My opinion is that WCG should count. It typically has a third or more active members that we have at FAH. The problem is how do you make a fair comparison for achievements. Since FAH work units vary more than WCG sub project work units do across hardware, it is hard to do. A little over a year ago I was doing a comparison of WCG and FAH using the NaCl web client on a single cpu thread comparison. However, now that FAH is GPU dominant, would it really still be fair? Comparing projects is more like comparing apples to oranges. Very tough to do fairly. Should it be based on raw points? Or perhaps a length of dedication? Should the rich get the free pass because they can afford the top of the line video cards/cpu's each quarter or should those that chug along the long term? How do we do what is fair? I personally just have a couple cpu cores on FAH and they do not generate a lot of points. I think after a few years they have netted me 420k total. So, even with all of my contributions to the team, I still do not have the minimum award level. However, I have earned over a million points at over 50 projects am in the top 10 in the team for all BOINC projects and in the top 11 just at WCG. WCG stats get squirrely depending on which set you base it off of. I won't lie, I could have ran FAH long enough just for the 1.5 million even without the GPU's already. But my point is that the original award was made during easier times when the team (majority) only focused on one project and the scoring was based on CPU's which everyone had. With so few people interested in DC'ing any more... I would focus on finding ways to encourage crunching/folding rather than making it harder to accomplish goals. Something that teams like Gridcoin have found is that many will flock for the easy rewards, but some will stick around long term. And that benefits the team more than a hard to get "trophy".

    I've also browsed GenMay and can honestly say that it is not that big of a deal. And this is a $5/year cost... To me it is just a little thank you for the advertising/publicity Kyle gets from all the DC stuff we do in his companies name.
     
  3. pututu

    pututu [H]ard DCOTM October 2016

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    Here are my proposals and thoughts:

    1) Two projects to be considered for the 1-year membership. Either meeting the F@H or WCG minimum point requirement per year to be eligible for the free 1-year membership. Reasons: Choice for members to either participate in GPU or CPU or both. Though you can still do CPU in F@H but the points and efficiency are not attractive. Past polling shows these two are the most popular projects in DC.

    2) For this reward program, eliminate life-time membership for those who have not yet obtained this. Reason: we want to encourage participation in our team year after year, not a one time event/effort.

    3) Min point limits? This is a [H]ard one. My basic idea is that this should be based one "typical GPU" and one "typical CPU" running continuously for 3-months in a year. My logic is that most folks normally turn on their rigs during the cooler period to act as a heaters , etc. With these assumptions, I would take a "typical GPU" to be GTX 750Ti. From the GPU folding database, that is about 81K ppd. Assuming 3 months has 91.25 days, the min eligibility should be around 7.4M points for F@H. This should be easily achieved for higher end GPU or we can replace GTX 750Ti with something lower/higher depending on the consensus.
    A "typical CPU" for WCG is a bit hard. I've i7-2600K, so let's assume this is typical CPU. From my earlier monitoring, I can do roughly 5-6K PPD WCG project, IIRC. Hence the min eligibility should be around 548K points.

    I'm not sure if this is too hard to achieve for most average [H] members but hopefully encourages more participation in DC projects. We can't beat the folding bucks or the curecoin purely on monetary rewards but this is all about volunteer computing and having fun along the way. Most of us and folks outside this team participate in the DC projects on a volunteer basis, for the love of math/science or just for the competition/challenges/bragging rights, etc.
     
  4. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Perhaps we should base it off run-time then. You fold/crunch for a month you get a month of general mayhem. This way it will keep active members instead of people just getting to the milestone for the reward and stopping.

    It'll also even the play field. Since not everyone can afford a huge folding farm.
     
  5. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    I bet if we run that poll again WCG and F@H would be even closer together. WCG might even gain more than F@H.
     
  6. ChristianVirtual

    ChristianVirtual [H]ard DCOTM March 2016

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    as I'm lifetime member already could I give my [H] reward to someone else ? How can we identify non-adults ?

    Else I would suggest, 3 month contributing (with daily returns) -> 1 month GM; should be some effort behind to be valuable.
     
  7. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    I do not think it's transferable.
     
  8. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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    And I don't want to create a lot of work for Pocatello/Kyle with doing a monthly credit for each member. Not to mention requiring each member trying to claim their credit. I prefer to leave it by the year or lifetime as is. After all, we are talking about $5. I can make that in one day off of one rig running videos for points...
     
  9. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Yeah that would be a lot of work keeping track of who's still participating and who stopped. If it could somehow be automated though that would be great.
     
  10. Pocatello

    Pocatello DC Moderator and [H]ard DCOTM x3 Staff Member

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    Interesting ideas. Things have changed since we last discussed this issue. Whatever we decide it has to be something concrete and simple to monitor.
     
  11. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    It needs to encourage new people to get involved.
    If you make it so someone with limited hardware or money would take a year or so to do for the initial reward then you exclude those guys and they are the most likely to not already have one or afford it.
    It should be done in a teared approach. First step not to difficult with a limited time reward. The second step should take much longer to achieve but rewarded appropriately.
    The other alternative is a reward system that rewards almost at the same rate as you earn making so you effectively pay for your GenMay membership with crunching on F@H or WCG.
     
  12. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Should we focus on just one project contribution or multiple? If multiple, which ones?

    I think we should "reward" users for contributing to Folding@Home and World Community Grid. Those seem to be our most active projects.
     
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  13. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    I would stick to just the 2 of F@H and WCG. That already covers what looks like the most active user base. Both should be officially supported by HardOCP and able to be rewarded for it.
     
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  14. ChristianVirtual

    ChristianVirtual [H]ard DCOTM March 2016

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    Unfortunately GPUgrid seems less active ...
     
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  15. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Okay, so lets stick with F@H and WCG. What are the requirements? F@H is all points based. WCG can be points based or CPU time. Which do we use?

    Another question. What is user A runs both. They meet half the requirements for F@H and half the requirements for WCG. Should they be given the reward?
     
  16. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    Points for both. Keep it easy to moderate and validate.

    Percentage wise.

    They meet 70% of F@H requirement plus 30% of WCG requirement=100% they should get a reward.

    I think is makes sense because alot of WCG may not use the GPU but they can on F@H.
     
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  17. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Alright, so what's should 100% be for both WCG and F@H?

    Currently it's 500k, 1M and 1.5M points for F@H. This was back in ~2007ish where a single GPU wasn't capable of achieving those milestones in a single day.
     
  18. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    How long does it take for a modern age GPU to reach 1M points in F@H?
     
  19. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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    Not that it matters all that much, but the program was last adjusted in 2011 by Lethal to reflect the last adjustment. And that was probably BigAdv era points.
     
  20. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    One of my 1080s is currently getting 770K points per day.
    One of my 970s is currently gettings 320K points per day.
    One of my 980 Tis is currently getting 675K points per day.

    I just looked at FAHControl real quick and checked them. They fluctuate in points by up to a few hundred thousand depending on the WU they receive.
     
  21. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    How about a 2M point basement? That's about a week of work for midrange or lower end hardware. I figure if you can afford really expensive hardware then you can afford the sub as well.

    This should allow people with only one computer to let there GPU fold over night and that may take about 3 weeks to do.
     
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  22. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    "Edited to reflect that Pocatello is now the main contact point for GenMay subs. - Lethal"

    That was her note when she edited it. Doesn't say anything about editing points. Although in ~2007ish ERA 1M points was a lot. I think one of the big points systems back then was a PS3 which got around 1,000 PPD. That means someone with just a PS3 folding would have taken almost 3 years to get 1M points. So perhaps they were edited.
     
  23. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    So 3M points for F@H for 1 year sub?

    What about WCG? I don't have a clue on those. Well, WCG does a much better job of tracking points so let me see here.
     
  24. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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  25. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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    I would suggest basing FAH scoring off of what a 750ti can produce being that it is a solid mid range card at a very affordable price. I will have to think about WCG's scoring. We should also clarify if we are talking WCG points or WCG BOINC points as there is a 7 times difference between the two. We have to nip that confusion in the bud and make it very clear when we decide on it.
     
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  26. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    They are also talking about getting 500k points so I doubt the points system was changed.
     
  27. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Which is easier for the moderators to check? In terms of WCG points.
     
  28. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardness Supreme

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    Do some electrical use comparison to just outright paying for the sub? figure out how much electricity it costs to reach 3M points or whatever on your specified average hardware --- and then relate that to the cost of a subscription --- and since it's sort of a charity type end goal - maybe make that somewhat equivalent?
     
  29. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    That would be impossible. The cost of electricity varies greatly.
     
  30. Gilthanis

    Gilthanis [H]ard|DCer of the Year - 2014

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    Well.. if we provide the links to the team stats we use in the thread that has the rules, then it is easy to check regardless. That is as long as people are honest about whom they are. Like in my case, all DC except FAH is under Coleslaw. FAH is under Gilthanis because I started it for the comparison last time WFeather and I were discussing it in IRC.

    EDIT: Correction... it would need to be WCG's page because the team page keeps track of what you contributed to the team whereas all the other stats sites don't break that down. They just say what you contributed altogether.
     
  31. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    So we need to use WCG points for WCG?
     
  32. Priller

    Priller Gawd

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    2M would be a better bar to set. More obtainable for those that would really need it IMO.

    I think it should be what you contribute to the team. So if someone from another team comes over and has the points he automatically gets a 1 year sub?
     
  33. ND40oz

    ND40oz [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I was a top 10 producer and it took me a few months to hit the lifetime membership of 1.5 million points back in the day. Look at what the top 10 guys are doing now and calculate a few months full of points and set that at the lifetime. Than divide by 3 to get the 1 year points mark.
     
  34. Pocatello

    Pocatello DC Moderator and [H]ard DCOTM x3 Staff Member

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    Nice to see you, ND40oz. Where are you hanging out these days?
     
  35. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Well the top 10 guys range from 1.1M PPD to 5.1M PPD.

    Code:
    1    Skillz            5,124,101
    2    Grandpa            4,499,988
    3    theshadow2754        3,543,159
    4    ChristianVirtual    2,556,523
    5    jfb9301            2,457,730
    6    MGMCCALLEY        2,183,056
    7    tmossman01        1,932,679
    8    Crosshairs        1,564,749
    9    Nathan_P        1,452,045
    10    applejacks        1,197,937
    1.1M PPD for #10 would mean 101,200,000 points in roughly 3 months.
    2.6M PPD for $6 would mean 239,200,000 points in roughly 3 months.
    3.5M PPD for #3 would mean 322,000,000 points in roughly 3 months.
    5.1M PPD for #1 would mean 469,200,000 points in roughly 3 months.

    That is a HUGE range of points. However, if we nip off the top 5 then everyone is a lot closer together.

    Code:
    6    MGMCCALLEY    2,183,056   
    7    tmossman01    1,932,679   
    8    Crosshairs    1,564,749   
    9    Nathan_P    1,452,045   
    10    applejacks    1,197,937   
    11    Dzero        1,068,492   
    12    Sparky        956,893   
    13    ByteDown[H]ard    926,628   
    14    DaBoSSs        912,623   
    15    lelliott731    767,945   
    Everyone is much closer to 1M to 2M PPD.

    Which means roughly 90M to 200M point spread. 145M is the middle point. So 145M points for the lifetime? Divided by 3 is 48M so 48M for the 1 year?

    Going by those numbers, assuming we're counting all previous points.

    81 users would be lifetime eligible right now.
    180 users would be 1 year eligible right now.

    Are we counting all previous points or starting new points going forward? Because the last time this was done it was all points at the time of the post.
     
  36. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    Wait a minute. Who the hell is applejacks?
     
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  37. ChristianVirtual

    ChristianVirtual [H]ard DCOTM March 2016

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    Maybe round up:

    150m for life sentence
    50m for early release
     
  38. ChristianVirtual

    ChristianVirtual [H]ard DCOTM March 2016

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    What happen to existing life-timers; can I carry over to my next life ?
     
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  39. ND40oz

    ND40oz [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Just hanging around, try to pop in from time to time to see how everyone is doing. I can't hang with these setups anymore, it's a lot more complicated then setting up 40 headless P4s these days. :)
     
  40. Skillz

    Skillz [H]ard DCOTM Jan 16 March 17

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    I'm going to assume we are out of luck with that.