[H]ardOCP Spec Bookshelf Speaker Setup

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by FrgMstr, Mar 15, 2017.

  1. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Hehe lucky you.
    I got a bit carried away after getting my first decent DAC which was around £900, it was a bit too good.
    That spiralled to around £5K to get an awesome 5.1 setup.
    Feck, didnt realise it was that much.
    Much of it isnt needed for stereo, that totals about £2.8K

    Like the mug I am, my multichannel DAC is likely getting upgraded this year.
    Gotta have more of the good stuff :D
    If its good enough I'll pass on the stereo DAC to someone who will love it.
     
  2. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Mini or full Marty?
     
  3. zUg_zUg

    zUg_zUg n00b

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    DIY is cool but how would you calculate the dimmensions of the box? Isnt it even harder to calculate if it is ported?
     
  4. Arcygenical

    Arcygenical Will Watercool for Crack

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    Download Win ISD and use a well documented driver with published T/S parameters.
     
  5. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    That's really creative. I love it. Provided - that is - that your coffee table location is also acoustically a good sub location in your room.

    That, and I wonder how much it shakes your drinks with every explosion, Star Destroyer passing by, or dinosaur step. :p
     
  6. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Are there good sub amplifiers for high powered applications?

    I ask because my sealed SVS sub has a 400W amplifier powering a 12" driver, and it sometimes feels a little anemic. Parts Exprtess has some sub amplifiers you can throw into your DIY builds, but the ones I have seen are MUCH smaller than the 400W in my SVS sub.
     
  7. Arcygenical

    Arcygenical Will Watercool for Crack

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    Part sexpress has a few really high powered bash/plate amps...

    http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-spa1000-1000w-subwoofer-plate-amplifier--300-809

    But 400w should be more than enough for a properly designed subwoofer... Perhaps it's the sub letting you down?

    Remember it takes 10x the wattage to approximately double the volume. Changing the box topology can often have as much impact as 50% more power.
     
  8. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Yep. Its a sealed sub. No port. That's why it requires so much more power.

    I opted for a sealed design, as the bass is usually more composed, more musical and less boomy. I thought this one would be enough for my HT room, but it is a little bit anemic, and doesn't go quite as far down as I had hoped, so I might build a big-ass ported box for myself in the future. Maybe a 15 or 18". Possibly two, one for each side of the room.
     
  9. Arcygenical

    Arcygenical Will Watercool for Crack

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    I have a pair of ported 12" subs that see between 10w and 400w and they don't have any issues with composure, musicality or tightness. I also have a sealed 15" that absolutely fails to deliver the depth that the ported pair do, at an order of magnitude more power!
     
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  10. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Good input. Did you build the 12's yourself? Or are they some brand I'd recognize?

    Don't get me wrong. My 12" sealed SVS sub is really nice. I love the sound out of it. It's just a bit anemic for my HT setup. I could get a second one, but this whole "building one yourself" thing really appeals to me (and might save some serious cash. Good subs are surprisingly expensive)
     
  11. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    Behringer Class D amps are great subwoofer amps.
    I've helped friends set up their subs with one.
    A stereo amp can cope with multi winding woofers down to 2 Ohms per winding.

    The Behringer iNuke series start at rated 2x 500W into 2x 2ohms or 1KW into 4 ohms.
    Those are a mid figure between RMS and peak, they are around 850W RMS.
    Into 8 ohms the power is halved, thats where the 3KW version comes in. This is what I use with my seat shaker to get just over 1KW RMS out -configured maximum.

    The DSP versions can be live controlled from a PC via USB and are chronically good.
    There are a ton of memory banks to store different configs and can even be saved/loaded from PC.
    The max peak output can be set to prevent woofer damage.
    You can strip its shell off and mount it inside the sub with a larger silent fan, it doesnt need much.
    Or replace the fan with a quieter one for external use.
    The fan is the only misgiving, its not loud but is noticeable.
     
  12. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Yikes, a Class D that requires a fan. That's some serious power.

    I'm not sure I need quite that much power. And I hate fans. I want silence.

    I do want to get larger 15" or 18" woofers to get further down in the frequency range. My SVS SB12-NSD is pretty nice going down to 23hz, but it doesnt hit its peak until closer to 28hz. Ideally I'd like to go down to 17 or so for some shaking action.

    I think I'd pick two lower powered subs, one on each side of the listening environment, rather than one big one, requiring fans, as long as I can get them down in the frequency range
     
  13. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    If the box was built well, it shouldn't sake at all. The vibrations from bass might make your stuff shake, but think the T-Rex and a cup of water.


    double the wattage to increase the volume by 3db, quadruple to increase 6db (4x effective volume).

    Sealed subs only need more power to extend lower, a ported design will give you higher output at the tuning but a majority of the content you won't see a difference. If you got the room for a ported then go ported other wise a sealed sub is still a really good sub. If you build one I recommend either the Dayton 460HO or the UM18-22. I have the UM18 in a sealed application and it does very well. Just as an FYI most amp's that have this power and don't cost a mortgage has fans.

    That's because its a REALLY cheap amp with no heatsinks. Its fan is quite literally just blowing on the IC's and a piece of thin metal that was attached. I purchased some Noctua fan and heatsinks ($8 in total) and its very quiet, its biggest downside is how bright it is. If you buy one get a DSP version.

    If you want to get technical my 18" sub in a 5 cuf box hits 17hz but its useless as its only about 80'ish . If you want 17hz you'll need lots of power and about a refrigerator of a box.

    A good way to get what you want is the VBSS project. You can run two super sensitive subs off of a VERY cheap (and fanless I think?) amp and you won't be complaining about lack of bass.
     
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  14. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Thanks for the heads up on that. I will definitely have to read up on this.
     
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  15. jpmeaney

    jpmeaney n00b

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    Hi Cagey. Sorry if this has already been asked, but how would you add a sub to this setup?
     
  16. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Easy. Since the amp lacks pre-amp outs, you just use a sub with high-level inputs. Just about all of them have them. So you run speaker wire to the sub.

    This is what my Dayton Sub-800 looks like:

    IMG_20170317_151348.jpg

    The logic in the sub then takes the amplified signal and normalizes it down to line level amplifying the signal for its own needs.

    They are designed to have little or no electrical impact on the amplified signal going to the speakers.

    It's a little messy but this is what the back of mine looks like.

    IMG_20170317_151703.jpg

    So I hooked both the sub wires (screwed in wires) and speakers (using banana plugs) to the same amp outputs.

    The "proper" way to do it if your layout allows is probably to run wires from amp to sub high level ins, and then from sub high level out to speakers, but due to my layout that wasn't feasible.
     
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  17. Nenu

    Nenu [H]ardened

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    This is how I run my sub, it matches the speakers better.
    My main speakers bottom out around 25Hz or lower so the subs cutoff is modded to start at 25Hz (previously was 40Hz lowest).

    My 5.1 DAC allows the LFE channel to be fed to the front channels so its the only sub connection I need.
    Op, if you want to run LFE to your sub it will likely need the LFE connection direct. A lot of subs allow this to work at the same time as high level in.
    You will see separate volume controls for low and high level input.
     
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  18. ckmondavi

    ckmondavi n00b

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    I hope you don't mind me stealing this setup Kyle! Because I just made an order at Amazon with items you posted! Upgrading my main rigs speakers from a pair of Edifer Exclaims (http://www.edifier.com/us/en/speakers/e10-exclaim-compact-computer-speakers). They're not bad for 2.1 ish speakers (no dedicated subwoofer), but mini subwoofers built into both speakers) but the digital volume control is a pain, specially when turning off the speakers reset the volume levels. I'll reuse the edifers with my LAN box and toss the cheap 20 dollar logitech speakers I bought as a place holder! Thanks for the inexpensive Audiophile grade setup my friend! Maybe I'll post my battle station when its up!
     
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  19. Geno750

    Geno750 Gawd

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    If you've got a 5cf box why not use a Marty Cube? I'm curious as I'm about to build two end tables with UM18-22's powered by a crown X4000, so they'll be getting about 1300w each and was planning to go sealed.

    Also, what's your user name on AVS forum?
     
  20. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    My box is in a constrained spot that I can't fit a cube, but I'm working to adjust to move my stuff so I can fit a mini Marty. Or a possible custom job like the johnny sub.

    Cube would require an effective 7cuf box, it's pretty big still. The plus behind the cube is the ease of material purchase and cutting so I'm not going to adjust the size. I'd go with the end table idea but I hear cubes also make awesome end tables.
     
  21. another-user

    another-user Gawd

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    i cant believe you used the speakers on the tv. theyre just... terrible.

    the backlight burned out on my old Z-680s (damn speakers are still going strong though. roughly 40k hours on them) so i said the hell with it and upgraded. ive got polks in my car, so i went with the new Signature series. S20s, S35, and S60s. so so damn nice. the S20s have enough bass to reverb the cabinet theyre in, and the S60s have enough bass to shake the floors. but i still need a sub. im looking at going with either a nice SVS or HSU. damn things should turn the concrete walls back to powder.
     
  22. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    I've been spending time reading about DIY subs this evening, but my head is spinning. I'm an Engineer so I am no stranger to math and numbers, but I have to do more research and figure out how they all relate.

    I thought what I wanted to get good low frequency sound was to get large speaker elements.

    I don't need a huge amount of power though, and I have limited space, so I figured the best solution might be some large-ish elements (18"?) In sealed sonotubes, maybe only acouple of feet high.

    Thing is, I'm looking at the published figures on all these things, and their F3 values are still really high (in the 50s hz) and that seems way too high. These are for HT use so I want them to go really low down in the range. How can I lower the F3? Does the F3 go down if I increase the cabinet size above the published optimal size? Or is it best to stick with the size recommended by the maker of the element?

    Very confusing stuff.

    Know any good links where I can read up?
     
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  23. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    You aren't wrong in some of your thinking. First off a sonotube isn't something magical, they are cool looking but are space inefficient. A horn will give you the most bang (literally) but are massive. A ported gives you boost at ported frequency and sealed gives you a very flat response and allows you to pump more power into your sub which does has its positives.

    Best thing period is to stack sealed subs in a space constraint spot. If you want big boom. If not get a 15" and model a box in winISD.

    And to lower an F3 you just extend the port or add more subs. A double stack of VBSS' can get you some serious boom for little money but their main problem is digging ultra low.

    http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1443078-new-diy-faq-s-here.html

    That's where I started, I have other threads but most of what I know I read in books and read online. Porting is possibly the easiest and hardest concept to understand. Subs in general though are a very easy concept.

    That VBSS concept for instance takes a sub that is already 10x louder then my sub at 1watt but it's xmech is low so while it can dig low it can't do it very loud. Which is why when you stack them you are raising your f3 by a theoretical 6db.

    If you can't fit the VBSS then get 2x sealed um18's on an inuke 6000dsp. You can get your MDF purchased and cut at homedepot in one trip and glued in one day. The trick will be the speaker cut out lol :D. You can even put cute feet on them and have stuff on them. Your response with two sealed 18's using about 1600watts each WILL be over kill. This might cost you around $1100.
     
  24. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  25. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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  26. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    The single um18 would probably be best then. You can crank that 6db's louder if you put another 1000watts (modeled at 500watts) with a single 3000dsp bridged. It's pretty much what I run but I get a bit more extension since my box is 5cuf. That's about a $650 investment.

    The flatness isn't much of an issue since the DSP can utilize filters to flatten that response.

    Edit: keep in mind the content that extends past 20hz is very little but it is showing up more since theaters are starting to cater to new DTS and Dolby standards.
     
  27. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Yikes, now we are talking real money though.


    I wonder if I should just get a second SVS SB12-NSD instead. They are rated at 23-270hz at +/- 3db. They don't go quite as deep as probably would be ideal, but would adding a second one help at all with low frequency response?

    I mean, it would require some EQ to flatten it out. Home theater receivers are essentially a huge multichannel DSP. I wonder if when I run Audyssey with two subwoofers like this, it notices that it has more capacity than it needs from like 30hz to 200hz, but less below 30hz, and EQ's off that range a little bit to allow for more deep end punch in movies.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
  28. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That's a way togo forward, you still won't come close to a single sealed um18. But you will even out room response and pick up your bottom end a bit. This may make you more happy then dealing with a pro amp and building your own sub. Plus it prevents you from getting addicted to sub building :D

    If you put them on either side of you on the couch the response will be even greater. Near field can be better than evening out the entire room.
     
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  29. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Oh, so adding a second one DOES help even out the low end on the second one. That is the information I was looking for.

    Is it because subs have a more linear response when not driven as close to their limits, or am I relying on the receiver to detect and EQ them a bit?

    If all I can expect is more even response throughout my listening positions, but no improvement in the very low end, I think I would lean towards building a bigger one instead. I'm not afraid of projects, but budget is a concern, and adding a second one of what I have will be a lot cheaper than building those monsters, even though the bang for the buck is lower. That and these little compact 12" sealed units are much more fiance-compatible than the mini-fridge sized ones. I can hide them behind furniture with relative ease.

    Do you know if the receiver usually figures out the phase settings on its own to eliminate constructive/destructive interference, or is this something I should tweak on my own before running Audyssey?

    Really appreciate all the help! I've built up a pretty good understanding of this stuff through my research, but the bass/subwoofer area is one where I am still a little green.
     
  30. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    It doesn't even out your response, it increases output. Take your response line and raise it a few DB's. You are going to even out ROOM response when you stagger them by increasing more surfaces for the sine wave to bounce off. EQ won't help but room treatment will (bass traps). Adding another 12 will help the low response but I don't know how much you are getting with these 12's because they don't list very good response graphs.

    I agree though that smaller subs look better and had similar arguments with the wife but when she felt a building collapse in a movie she asked when I was building a second. She is also interested in the idea of rocking a VBSS or two with music.

    Audyssey won't help with correcting your subs and phasing. It may tell you if you are having problems but correcting the bass is up to you. Also REW with a umik will help better here, allowing you to roam the room and find the problem.

    My recommendation is still get a sealed um18 (can also buy the flat pack so all you have to do is glue stuff together). But adding a second SVS could make you happy, it just depends on what you want.

    If you want what you have but just louder get another SVS.

    If you want deep extension for movies get an um18.

    Let me know if I glossed something over, out with the wif currently lol!
     
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  31. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Hmm.

    While I'm actually quite good at it, and don't mind doing carpentry in a pinch if I have to, I'd rather not have to.

    I wonder if I could find a flat pack for a smaller sealed enclosure for the um18. I've read its quite well suited for sealed enclosures.

    I wonder how much power I'd need to drive it. I wonder if I could get away with under-powering it with a 300W flat panel sub amp, if I build two of them...

    edit:

    This bundle looks pretty nice. In your opinion, is this a decent deal? I still can't believe how much some CNC cut pieces of wood cost...
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
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  32. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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  33. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes that is very good.
     
  34. DogsofJune

    DogsofJune 2[H]4U

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    Food for thought, my speakers are a bit long in the tooth. Nice setup
     
  35. Geno750

    Geno750 Gawd

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    That one is a mini.

    The Johnny sub is quite awesome. It's what I modeled my second enclosure after mostly because it just fits inside my house's built in entertainment center, which I can't use because it wasn't built for a 75" TV. Below is my Johnny Sub.

    4EKNwDf.jpg
     
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  36. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    That is a beautiful stain job on that.

    I also just realized you said 75", does that mean you are grabbing one of the new Sony OLED's?
     
  37. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

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    Yeah, that kind of stuff impresses me.

    As an Engineer, I am pretty awesome at hand crafting functional stuff.

    Making stuff beautiful - on the other hand - is a bit outside of my capability.

    From a "hand-eye coordination" perspective, I am practically disabled.
     
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  38. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I can make stuff pretty ok but the small defects make my eye twitch and want to throw it away.
     
  39. wolfofone

    wolfofone Gawd

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    Heh I will keep using my cheap-o Logitech X230s until they die :).
     
  40. Trimlock

    Trimlock [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Btw I don't post on AVS, I have a few post but not much. Really only had to do with a port question.