[H]arders should stay away from bitmining?

[geok1ng]

This may sound like a moral post, but i would like to hear your thoughts on the effects of bitmining on our lifes.

I was never a fan of the whole concept of bitmining on the first place, because every single article on the subject says the same thing: if you have the money to invest in bitfarming hardware, your profits buy actually farming the virtual currency are smaller than the profits you would make by simply buying the currency and selling later at higher prices.

Apart from that simple math, there is the inevitable bubble-crash cycle. There is no intrinsic economic value being generated by bitfarming. At the lower level the virtual currency is a tool for drug and slave dealers and tax evaders. Both of these economic agents will switch to alternatives long before the hash difficulty make coins prizes unbearable. Every bitfarmer has to deal with the risk of ending the economic cycle with dead investment in hardware that is good for nothing.

There are other effects of bitming that [H]arders should fear:

-Bitming uses a ton of energy. This is bad for the whole planet but in the end will only increase energy prices for the rest of our lives.
-Bitmining inflates hardware prices.
-Bitming sets a trend for GPU designers that puts compute capabilities above gaming strength. The GTX 770 was a GPU perfect for gaming with very low power consumption but all GPUs released after the 770 are a power hungry beasts, meaning gamers not only pay more for the VGAs, but need to get bigger PSUs, more PC cooling gear and even spend more on air conditioning.

So i would ask every [H]arder to considr:
-If you believe the virtual coins will increase in price, treat them as a good stock and buy your share to sell later at higher prices.
-If you feel that your unused hardware should not stay idle, start folding.
-if you feel that current VGA prices are crazy, wait for better prices, or grab VGAs not suited for bitming like the GTX 770. You can get a pair of 4GB 770s for price miners are paying for a R9 290x

 

[LZ_Xray]

I disagree nearly completely. The reasons are irrelevant really. Other than paragraph 2 this is entirely a moral argument, and the wise will eat plutonium before they'll get into a morality battle. Particularly on the internet.


That said, this part of para 2 is true in most cases.

if you have the money to invest in bitfarming hardware, your profits buy actually farming the virtual currency are smaller than the profits you would make by simply buying the currency and selling later at higher prices

 

[Dreamerbydesign]

-Bitming uses a ton of energy. This is bad for the whole planet but in the end will only increase energy prices for the rest of our lives.

Try telling that to DC'ers

 

[parawing742]

I only mine during the winter and use the excess heat from the computer to warm my house. So tell me how that's wasting energy?

 

[musky]

And exactly who are you to tell me what I should do with my time and money? How about you keep your opinions (and that is exactly what your post is) to yourself?

 

[Yakk]

Unfortunately ALL distributed computing projects use massive amounts of power compared to years ago when typical home computers didn't have a 1000+Watt psu, now many do. Combined with epeen, it's an expensive mix now. I heat my house also so mining serves a double purpose. I've donated to boinc projects for years prior to btc and still do, albeit at a reduced amount. Times change I suppose.

 

[Nathan_P]

Unfortunately ALL distributed computing projects use massive amounts of power compared to years ago when typical home computers didn't have a 1000+Watt psu, now many do. Combined with epeen, it's an expensive mix now. I heat my house also so mining serves a double purpose. I've donated to boinc projects for years prior to btc and still do, albeit at a reduced amount. Times change I suppose.

A 1000w PSU does not mean that the PC is using 1000w.

I have a 1000w, 750w, 650w and 400w PSU in my rigs. They pull 350w, 248w, 267w and 297w.
Since they are helping disease research it doesn't bother me too much.

@OP, that's your opinion - in this sub forum we burn energy to help do medical research so you won't find much traction in here

 

[Yakk]

A 1000w PSU does not mean that the PC is using 1000w.

I have a 1000w, 750w, 650w and 400w PSU in my rigs. They pull 350w, 248w, 267w and 297w.
Since they are helping disease research it doesn't bother me too much.

@OP, that's your opinion - in this sub forum we burn energy to help do medical research so you won't find much traction in here

They pull a combined 1100+Watts, that's a decent pull, compared to the first DC projects which ran on cpus instead of screen savers is all I'm saying.

 

[mkrohn]

Go hug a tree or send al gore some offset credits for us.

My house stays warmer than I would otherwise be keeping it (my 2 under 2 appreciate it). A person who is unemployed but found a nice way to profit a livable wage while staying home with my family. I am a full time student living on student loans and I have 5 kids. Times got tough and I went back to school. Mining has been helping me make ends meet since July.

Anybody trying to make a moral argument with me can shove it. I found an interesting way to improve the lives of my loved ones and even if it were lighting endangered butterfly wings on fire I'm fine with it.

Yes I do keep adding more rigs and cards but my next move I think is going to be upgrading some of the existing rigs to maybe a series of 290's instead of constantly stacking 6950's and other less efficient cards. I will be doing that primarily due to limits on my power grid though. I'm also considering setting up a few circuits in my inlaws basement

 

[visibiliti]

OP: Most of the people that say things like "you can make more profit by buying the coins and selling later than by mining" are said by miners who don't want you to jump aboard and increase their mining difficulty, thereby reducing their profits. Hint: It's VERY profitable.

 

[mkrohn]

OP: Most of the people that say things like "you can make more profit by buying the coins and selling later than by mining" are said by miners who don't want you to jump aboard and increase their mining difficulty, thereby reducing their profits. Hint: It's VERY profitable.

for sure, think of the fools that bought bitcoin what a month or so back @$800, they've made nothing and I've made over $2k. Many people are using your quote for DAY TRADING which is more work than putting mining rigs together and yes that's where the profit is. Over the past week or so I honestly haven't done any work on my mining rigs other than flip a power switch on one that I undervolted too far apparently.

Today I put a screen in my lil basement window and propped it open because it was 90 in the mining room and 75 upstairs once the furnace fan was running for a bit. It's over 40 here in MI right now but in a couple days when its back down to 10 my house will be at 70 without my furnace running

 

[visibiliti]

^ MI, eh?

Man I have family there and all I keep hearing about are huge power outages this month! I was thinking to myself "I sure am glad I am not mining in MI"

Have you been affected by them or are you okay? My family lives in Genessee county

 

[Carbon_Rod]

OP: Most of the people that say things like "you can make more profit by buying the coins and selling later than by mining" are said by miners who don't want you to jump aboard and increase their mining difficulty, thereby reducing their profits. Hint: It's VERY profitable.

I very much agree.

And then there's guys like me that can't day trade worth a crap. I already said in another thread not to trust any speculations I make about any particular crypto coin. In fact, do the opposite I say and you'll be a millionaire in no time. I lost a few hundred bucks the first times I tried to day trade.

That's why I stick to mining. I don't have to do much other than analyze what coin to mine today. It plays upon my hobby of working with hardware and making it work for me. Once I mine a bunch, I sell it... usually at whatever good price I can get at that time. It's fun and it has so far paid for itself. I'm working on making profits with it now.

So ya, OP, your opinion is noted. Everyone is entitled to one.

 

[mkrohn]

^ MI, eh?

Man I have family there and all I keep hearing about are huge power outages this month! I was thinking to myself "I sure am glad I am not mining in MI"

Have you been affected by them or are you okay? My family lives in Genessee county

Dowagiac, MI power never even blinked. I'm in a town that runs its own power company. They're actually really stable but I do pay more than the surrounding areas.

The key to not losing power for long though is not living in the boonies If you live way out you need to expect to be the lowest priority for ANYTHING! Here though the city has their own staff so if an outage happens their guys are on it

 

[tjmagneto]

Go hug a tree or send al gore some offset credits for us.

BTW, Al Gore is running for [H] DCOTM. How ironic.

 

[DooKey]

BTW, Al Gore is running for [H] DCOTM. How ironic.

Fuck Owl Gore. DooKey is the shit and needs your vote.

 

[bigted]

And exactly who are you to tell me what I should do with my time and money? How about you keep your opinions (and that is exactly what your post is) to yourself?

 

[Pocatello]

So i would ask every [H]arder to considr:
-If you believe the virtual coins will increase in price, treat them as a good stock and buy your share to sell later at higher prices.
-If you feel that your unused hardware should not stay idle, start folding.
-if you feel that current VGA prices are crazy, wait for better prices, or grab VGAs not suited for bitming like the GTX 770. You can get a pair of 4GB 770s for price miners are paying for a R9 290x

Thanks for your thoughtful and thought-provoking post, geok1ng. I am not offended by your post, and I don't know why others are offended. No one forced them to read or respond to your thread.

And thanks for the posts in this thread. I think about mining versus folding (F@H) versus WCG (giving up on the Sad Panda Group at Standford) for something that treats me with some respect, or at the very least, does not treat me with disrespect.

All of my inertia is towards F@H, but if I had some time I would move my efforts elsewhere. A thread like this helps me sort out my alternatives.

 

[Pitbully]

And exactly who are you to tell me what I should do with my time and money? How about you keep your opinions (and that is exactly what your post is) to yourself?

A liberal democrat.

 

[collegeboy69us]

seems like the OP has a rather narrow view of the cryptocurrency world.

If I told you there was a device I could sell you for $399 - that would (quite literally) pay for itself in 30 days and then further generate profit on top. And it also happened to be the latest/greatest tech in terms of GPU/gaming, there is no logic you could use that would cause you NOT to want one. Of course the market caused that price to go up, but it's none of my concern b/c i bought my 290's before the jump

Any argument you presented about the energy cost flew out the window as soon as you mentioned F@H. a watt is a watt is a watt, and you can't say using it for folding is "better" than using it for mining. In both instances the energy is used. Big difference is one makes you money, the other costs you money. It's all personal preference as to what you want to accomplish neither is a bad choice because they are both personal. Imagine the wild scenario where someone who makes a nice chunk of money mining uses it to send their child to medical school, kid finds some miraculous cancer drug thanks to opportunity that might not have existed without the money to pay for it.

The economics of GPU cost blowing up recently -- well that's simple economics, the same things happen to hot christmas toys, and in rare instances things like food/gas. nVidia has had more than enough time to integrate better compute functions into their GPUs, they just don't want to go that route. They are leaving a market uptapped and because of that retailers and middlemen are raping the market for extra profit. It really amuses me when people think an entity has an obligation to sell you X product at X price just because you refuse to pay the market price. We aren't talking about bread or medical supplies, nothing discussed here is essential to survival and hence no moral or ethical dimension to this particular topic so I applaud anyone who gets the best price they can both buying and selling.

If none of that really sticks -- think about it this way, you are basically asking other people to avoid a certain hobby or behavior and not use a certain resource so YOU can have cheaper electricity and/or products? Do you really think you are that important out of the other 7 billion people on this planet? Should I not drive my car to get to work either? Just so you can have slightly cheaper gas prices at the pump? Probably shouldn't go out and have a hamburger tonight and a beer so your food prices can be slightly cheaper.

I'm not saying all this to be rude, just offering a different perspective. the GPU price market will cool down eventually, just be patient. In terms of wasting money -- i personally thing all professional sports where players are paid 10s of millions of dollars, is a huge waste. Imagine what could be accomplished in science and education if the billions spent every year were diverted to such things? Me bitching about it won't change a thing though, so why would I even worry about it? I don't

 

[_r2h]

^^ This guy!

 

[refraxion]

So if I were to get into bitmining, would it be better I invest in an ASIC rather than building multiple PC's?

 

[mkrohn]

So if I were to get into bitmining, would it be better I invest in an ASIC rather than building multiple PC's?

PC's don't bitmine they scrypt mine. ASIC will be the only way to make money with bitmining

 

[LZ_Xray]

So if I were to get into bitmining, would it be better I invest in an ASIC rather than building multiple PC's?

To clarify, if you want to mine actual Bitcoin, at this point ASIC is really the only way.

Other cryptocurrencies are still mined via GPU, but Bitcoin itself has advanced to where it's nearly impossible to be effective getting started mining with GPU.

 

[geok1ng]

TYVM for your inputs on the subject. I realize that for some people this is a delicate matter and they become touchy without provocation. So to be fair i will do some provocation:

Do any miner made more money than the people that invested in Litecoin in last November?
400% in 3 days? What about the people behind the virtual coins markets?

Lets take a look from the bigger picture and realize that the harsh way bitminers respond to questions about how they are "making money" is similar to the behavior of anyone engaged in an economic activity bound to have repercussions for the mankind. In their defense slavers, drug-dealers poachers and bear farmers at the very least deal with a real product, even if they also use the same "i have family and kids, so i do this shit and you can kiss Al Gore's a$$"

Paint it however you want, but if a tax evader or a drug dealer asks you to rent your GPUs so he can laundry money, most people would say no. I do not blame those who say yes, as people said, they have kids to feed...

What i am pissed off is that because some people said yes to the criminals, GPU prices have gone up,

 

[Bill1024]

Buy a GTX 780 the prices fell from over 700 to 500$. That will make you happy.

 

[osrk]

I'm mining because it's fun, i already had the cards and obtained many more cards before the huge spike in prices (e.g. I got some 7950s for $150 on black friday). While I agree it's a waste of resources, it's currently heating or helping to heat my house, so for now it's slightly offsetting my carbon release from burning propane.

I do agree the real moneyz is in the day trading, but I have a real job and none of this makes any sense, so day trading is literally just gambling.

 

[Carbon_Rod]

TYVM for your inputs on the subject. I realize that for some people this is a delicate matter and they become touchy without provocation. So to be fair i will do some provocation:

Do any miner made more money than the people that invested in Litecoin in last November?
400% in 3 days? What about the people behind the virtual coins markets?

Lets take a look from the bigger picture and realize that the harsh way bitminers respond to questions about how they are "making money" is similar to the behavior of anyone engaged in an economic activity bound to have repercussions for the mankind. In their defense slavers, drug-dealers poachers and bear farmers at the very least deal with a real product, even if they also use the same "i have family and kids, so i do this shit and you can kiss Al Gore's a$$"

Paint it however you want, but if a tax evader or a drug dealer asks you to rent your GPUs so he can laundry money, most people would say no. I do not blame those who say yes, as people said, they have kids to feed...

What i am pissed off is that because some people said yes to the criminals, GPU prices have gone up,

Your tears sustain me.

 

[B00nie]

seems like the OP has a rather narrow view of the cryptocurrency world.

If I told you there was a device I could sell you for $399 - that would (quite literally) pay for itself in 30 days and then further generate profit on top. And it also happened to be the latest/greatest tech in terms of GPU/gaming, there is no logic you could use that would cause you NOT to want one.

IF cryptocurrencies would be generally accepted and stable then that might hold true. As of now everyone who are investing any money to them are gambling. My prediction is that cryptocurrencies will fall flat on their asses with thousands of new 'currencies' popping up all the time.

 

[mkrohn]

IF cryptocurrencies would be generally accepted and stable then that might hold true. As of now everyone who are investing any money to them are gambling. My prediction is that cryptocurrencies will fall flat on their asses with thousands of new 'currencies' popping up all the time.

LOL thats not your prediction thats just a rehash of everybody who doesn't have any understanding of cryptocurrency. These weird alts will have a BOOM and a BUST while the big ones like BTC and LTC are going to be solid long term investment vehicles with plenty of SHORT TERM hiccups. China pulls out and everything crashes? that's short term. Yes the weird alt coins are gambles but there's cash to be made as long as you're not stupid enough to hold mountains "long term". I'm sure there'll be some that pull through but most will not

 

[Spazturtle]

TYVM for your inputs on the subject. I realize that for some people this is a delicate matter and they become touchy without provocation. So to be fair i will do some provocation:

Do any miner made more money than the people that invested in Litecoin in last November?
400% in 3 days? What about the people behind the virtual coins markets?

The people who run it? You mean the miners, the miners run the network.

Lets take a look from the bigger picture and realize that the harsh way bitminers respond to questions about how they are "making money" is similar to the behavior of anyone engaged in an economic activity bound to have repercussions for the mankind. In their defense slavers, drug-dealers poachers and bear farmers at the very least deal with a real product, even if they also use the same "i have family and kids, so i do this shit and you can kiss Al Gore's a$$"

Paint it however you want, but if a tax evader or a drug dealer asks you to rent your GPUs so he can laundry money, most people would say no. I do not blame those who say yes, as people said, they have kids to feed...

What i am pissed off is that because some people said yes to the criminals, GPU prices have gone up,

Crypto-currencies are the future, you seam to have this silly idea that only criminals use crypto-currencies, hey criminals also use fiat currency like the USD so why not shut down the whole financial industry?
Miners are helping to built the future, they are getting offended because you are spiting on their work and calling them scum.

 

[osrk]

Do any miner made more money than the people that invested in Litecoin in last November?
400% in 3 days? What about the people behind the virtual coins markets?

I agree, day trading is way more profitable, but it's purely based on luck, no one knows for sure what caused litecoin prices to surge 400% in 3 days, no one could have predicted it. I'm sure as shit not going to buy $10,000 in litecoin today and expect it to go up 400%. I keep my real money far away from this. Buying hardware is different, the payoff point is very close and I always have the depreciated cost of the hardware to make up more money.

 

[LZ_Xray]

TYVM for your inputs on the subject. I realize that for some people this is a delicate matter and they become touchy without provocation

That's why I didn't say much about it Geo. Although I disagree, you were going to walk into a minefield of replies whether it be purposefully or inadvertently, and you provided plenty of provocation.

This is one of the few instances that has ever happened where hardware nerds (myself included) can make hard cash from their hobby, It has practically never happened before. Before this the hobby was fun but basically a money sink. Therefore we jump on something like this like dingoes on a carcass and rightly so.

GPUs, like any other commodity, follow the golden rule of commerce - prices are set by the buyer. Massive demand without a likewise increase in supply will drive the price up. On anything. Every single time.

Likewise, if you drive a car, ride a bike, live in a house, wear clothes, buy things from stores, or eat, you indirectly aid criminals more than currency miners ever could.

The harsh retorts, at their core, aren't even really about cryptocurrency mining. They're more replies to a statement that's innocent about the world.

 

[m33pm33p]

I think you are extremely misinformed or just plain ignorant about the subject you are trying to speak on..

Stop bitcoin mining because bad guys use it for bad things...NEWS FLASH, bad guys use "real" currency for bad things too..

Stop bitcoin mininn because it's raising the prices of GPU's...Welcome to a free economy, China is that way ---> Don't want to spend big dollars, don't. It's pretty much that simple. You don't need some super GPU now days to run most games on damn near max settings.

I'm not offended but you can't come into a DC forum and throw an OPINION thread out like it's hard fact. None of what you've said has any proof of concept or documentation to back it up..


What if I was to tell you that us using all this energy is a good thing for the world? Would you be inclined to believe me just because I said so...I sure hope not.

It also may help if you made sure before you brought a philisophical "im shitting on you guys" post to the forums that you checked your post for grammar and spelling as for the most part, your post makes you look not the least bit intelligent.


My .02


EDIT: With THAT being said! All you miners are POS's! Join team 33 and save some lives F@H!

 

[mkrohn]

EDIT: With THAT being said! All you miners are POS's! Join team 33 and save some lives F@H!

Like others have said the money earned from mining can send kids to medical school and THEY could be the ones to cure cancer I personally am raising a family while going to school myself. Certainly not MEDICAL school BUT mining is keeping my kids warm during a MI winter and putting gas in my car.

Things were different when I started my family. I made good amounts of money with absolutely no education. Things shifted on me and I had to make the call of either working a crap job or going to school near 20 credits a semester and getting through school as fast as possible. I'll have my associates in May with a bachelors a year later if I get lucky with my schedule actually lining up just right.

The power grid where I'm at is very good. Places like CA or other places that have power issues there MIGHT be a discussion but around here we don't have to worry about power at all.

 

[jojo69]

BTC has subsidized folding operations here for over 2 years

less, not more, science would have been done here without that subsidized power


also, if one believes in the liberating potential of crypto currencies then contributing to the decentralization of the network is another plus

 

[m33pm33p]

Like others have said the money earned from mining can send kids to medical school and THEY could be the ones to cure cancer I personally am raising a family while going to school myself. Certainly not MEDICAL school BUT mining is keeping my kids warm during a MI winter and putting gas in my car.

Things were different when I started my family. I made good amounts of money with absolutely no education. Things shifted on me and I had to make the call of either working a crap job or going to school near 20 credits a semester and getting through school as fast as possible. I'll have my associates in May with a bachelors a year later if I get lucky with my schedule actually lining up just right.

The power grid where I'm at is very good. Places like CA or other places that have power issues there MIGHT be a discussion but around here we don't have to worry about power at all.

BTC has subsidized folding operations here for over 2 years

less, not more, science would have been done here without that subsidized power


also, if one believes in the liberating potential of crypto currencies then contributing to the decentralization of the network is another plus

Ok...lets not get all logical an shit....and keeping kids warm during the winter months is over rated.

 

[Schro]

Do any miner made more money than the people that invested in Litecoin in last November?
400% in 3 days? What about the people behind the virtual coins markets?

I have not invested in any hardware (other than using what I already had) to mine coins and I have done quite well over the past few years. Let's just say its more than the average Genmay'ers salary ;-)

 

[Modder]

Mining bought my kids Christmas and my wife's surgery.

 

[/usr/sbin]

OP: Most of the people that say things like "you can make more profit by buying the coins and selling later than by mining" are said by miners who don't want you to jump aboard and increase their mining difficulty, thereby reducing their profits. Hint: It's VERY profitable.

Pretty much this.

I had all of my bitcoin mining gear sitting there, already paid for (and a LOT more) from bitcoin mining. Combined I pull about 2000 K/hash sec @860 watts. I have high [power rates, so that's about $100 in power a month and I make around 19 LTC/month. So basically I'm paying $5.26 per LTC.

Seems like that's a cheaper way to buy it than on the open market. Just sayin'.