Gutted... Is a 240 rad enough?

VanGoghComplex

VanGoghComplex

2[H]4U
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Apr 5, 2016
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After a month of waiting for the fittings to show up from China, I tore into my system last night. The intent was to replace my Swiftech 140 rad/res/pump combo with a simple 140 rad, and install a tube reservoir pump top.

My new Swifty 140 doesn't fit in the rear exhaust slot for my case. It's too wide and the I/O shroud forces the mounting holes out of alignment.

So, I'm now down to a single 240 rad. The new pump arrangement is much quieter (noise isolating standoffs on the mounts) and the reservoir is much easier to use, so I don't wanna undo that work.

For a GTX970 and an i5-7600k, both overclocked (frequency only, no voltage bumps) do you think a 240 is enough rad? I'm not cooling a monster system here and my gut tells me it's fine, but I really prefer to over engineer things... trouble is my budget's shot.
 
I haven't run the system yet (still doing a leak test run.) Prior, with 3x140, both CPU and GPU leveled out around 55c under gaming load.
 
I would imagine that now your CPU would be in the 60s and GPU probably won't change much.
 
I'd say it's good enough. It's probably the minimum amount of rads I'd want, but it really depends on the temps you get.
 
+1 to that


It's almost not even worth it at this point unless your fans on the rad are absolutely silent and the coolers on the CPU and GPU before were noisier.
 
*sigh* Guess all there is to do is run it.

I know I'll get a much quieter system with the new arrangement, so if my temps take a little bit of a bump I'll just have to remind myself that 60c is still admirably cool under full load, compared to stock air cooling. =)
 
VanGoghComplex said:
After a month of waiting for the fittings to show up from China, I tore into my system last night. The intent was to replace my Swiftech 140 rad/res/pump combo with a simple 140 rad, and install a tube reservoir pump top.

My new Swifty 140 doesn't fit in the rear exhaust slot for my case. It's too wide and the I/O shroud forces the mounting holes out of alignment.

So, I'm now down to a single 240 rad. The new pump arrangement is much quieter (noise isolating standoffs on the mounts) and the reservoir is much easier to use, so I don't wanna undo that work.

For a GTX970 and an i5-7600k, both overclocked (frequency only, no voltage bumps) do you think a 240 is enough rad? I'm not cooling a monster system here and my gut tells me it's fine, but I really prefer to over engineer things... trouble is my budget's shot.
Click to expand...


I don't think it will do worse than on air. I've seen plenty of builds with a single 240.

The old rule of thumb is that the absolute minimum should be one 120 fan slot per heat generating component in the loop.

The temps may not blow you away, but they will probably be functional.

One thing worth trying is seeing if you can fit the rad that doesn't fit on the outside of the case. That's always an option
 
Define "enough".

I'm sure it'll be plenty to run at 100%. I'm sure it'll be cooler than air coolers. I'm sure it'll be warmer than a pair of 240 rads. There's no accurate way to estimate temps though in these situations. There's just far too many variables.
 
I came to the conclusion that I'd try a single 280mm in my system. 180w gpu + 85w cpu + ML140 fans.

Don't know how valid these results are; but I usually side with evidence provided over speculation- youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0mE9avtnY

I heard a lot of

- "No you need 120mm/100w, or 120mm/component, or 120mm/component + 120mm extra for headroom"

I saw some, "240/280mm worked fine for me (cpu + gpu)"

Here are some graphs regarding wattage/radiator size heat dissipation: http://www.overclock.net/t/1457426/radiator-size-estimator/0_100

Here was some info about sandwiching/stacking rads: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?220874-More-Radiator-Sandwich-testing

Here was some info that seemed valuable, but that I didn't understand: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...ews-Comparison-of-Radiator-Cooling-Efficiency


Basically I came to the conclusion that there was no simple answer, aside from, "give it a try, it'll probably be alright". I assume we all have different expectations- some people won't accept >50c temps, others want <1000RPM fan speed, others are limited to radiator width/quality/density, etc. So everyone's answering a slightly different version of the question. The calculations suggest it won't work, in reality it seems to be alright depending on your expectations.


Did you consider drilling new holes/slotting your existing holes for the radiator? Sorry to hear things didn't work out as expected, glad that some of it did at least.
 
0996451 said:
I came to the conclusion that I'd try a single 280mm in my system. 180w gpu + 85w cpu + ML140 fans.

Don't know how valid these results are; but I usually side with evidence provided over speculation- youtube.com/watch?v=-Z0mE9avtnY

I heard a lot of

- "No you need 120mm/100w, or 120mm/component, or 120mm/component + 120mm extra for headroom"

I saw some, "240/280mm worked fine for me (cpu + gpu)"

Here are some graphs regarding wattage/radiator size heat dissipation: http://www.overclock.net/t/1457426/radiator-size-estimator/0_100

Here was some info about sandwiching/stacking rads: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?220874-More-Radiator-Sandwich-testing

Here was some info that seemed valuable, but that I didn't understand: http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...ews-Comparison-of-Radiator-Cooling-Efficiency


Basically I came to the conclusion that there was no simple answer, aside from, "give it a try, it'll probably be alright". I assume we all have different expectations- some people won't accept >50c temps, others want <1000RPM fan speed, others are limited to radiator width/quality/density, etc. So everyone's answering a slightly different version of the question. The calculations suggest it won't work, in reality it seems to be alright depending on your expectations.


Did you consider drilling new holes/slotting your existing holes for the radiator? Sorry to hear things didn't work out as expected, glad that some of it did at least.
Click to expand...


Exactly.

That's why there are so many "rules of thumb" and so few calculators for this stuff.

Your variables are at one level or another:
  • Radiator cross-sectional area
  • Radiator thickness
  • Radiator air flow resistance
  • Radiator water flow restriction
  • water block effectiveness (on each component)
  • How well mounted the blocks are for heat transfer off of chips.
  • How restrictive the blocks are to flow
  • How restrictive other parts of the loop are to flow (how many right angle bends, etc)
  • How large the pump is, and what the resultant flow is through the loop given how restrictive it is
  • Static Pressure of the fans mounted on the radiators (for radiator mounting we care more about static pressure, and less about CFM flow figures)
  • Overall flow of air through case. Roughly equal intake and exhaust flows pretty well. Go too far in either direction imbalancing it, and it hurts flow.
  • (To a lesser extent) Coolant composition, and it's capacity to move heat
  • (To a lesser extent) Tube thickness and its restrictiveness


Most of these figures are not published by parts manufacturers or are otherwise not easily measurable without access to an engineering lab.

So, the best we can all do, is make rough decisions based on rules of thumb, and then test and see how it works in our particular setups. If we don't like the results, then its time to make further adjustments.
 
Thanks for the input everyone.

I guess I was just so bummed over the plan not working out that I wanted to share. For future reference for anyone with an Enthoo Evolv ATX: A Swiftech QP 140 rad will not fit in the rear exhaust grille. The outer dimensions of the rad box are just a hair too large.

The mounting holes on the back of the Enthoo are already slotted vertically, and the media shield shroud forces the holes on the rad horizontally out of alignment. In addition, the protrusions for the G1/4 ports stick out too far for the rad to fit between the upper radiator mounting bracket rail and the PCIe plate shroud. Any rad that's a mil or two smaller in both dimensions would likely fit.

Pictures of the new build to come... I do like it, I just lost 140mm of rad. I'll post temperatures with the pics once I've had a chance to see how it behaves; maybe the unrestricted rear exhaust will help the top-mounted radiator have access to cooler air.
 
Running Valley... Feels like I'm maybe missing some red dye.

Y'all remember me asking about Barrow?

This res and all the fittings are Barrow. They are fantastic fit and finish.

Temperatures to come when I can sit down and bench it properly; for now though it looks pretty comparable to my prior setup. I think the head pressure on the pump is helping it move water a bit better.
1490329509756900992583.jpg
 
Moving more water doesn't necessarily make the radiator more efficient, but if say some of the rad channels were thinner slightly than others it might help move more into them. But at least it's still super quiet and at least a little better than air :)
 
VanGoghComplex said:
After a month of waiting for the fittings to show up from China, I tore into my system last night. The intent was to replace my Swiftech 140 rad/res/pump combo with a simple 140 rad, and install a tube reservoir pump top.

My new Swifty 140 doesn't fit in the rear exhaust slot for my case. It's too wide and the I/O shroud forces the mounting holes out of alignment.

So, I'm now down to a single 240 rad. The new pump arrangement is much quieter (noise isolating standoffs on the mounts) and the reservoir is much easier to use, so I don't wanna undo that work.

For a GTX970 and an i5-7600k, both overclocked (frequency only, no voltage bumps) do you think a 240 is enough rad? I'm not cooling a monster system here and my gut tells me it's fine, but I really prefer to over engineer things... trouble is my budget's shot.
Click to expand...

Could you drill some extra holes in the case and shift the new rad slightly so it will fit?

You could also maybe mount the new rad to the fans on the front of the case. It looks like you might have space between the res and the front for it, if it's a thin one, or you could relocate the pump/rad thing an inch to the left in your picture.
 
RazorWind said:
Could you drill some extra holes in the case and shift the new rad slightly so it will fit?

You could also maybe mount the new rad to the fans on the front of the case. It looks like you might have space between the res and the front for it, if it's a thin one, or you could relocate the pump/rad thing an inch to the left in your picture.
Click to expand...
Both ideas occurred to me, but redrilling the case would be tough; the holes in the back are already vertically slotted and the misalignment is only about half a hole's width in the horizontal direction. As for the front mount, I think it'd work but I'd need to replace my front fans with 140s... Pricy.

So far the single 240 seems to be doing well, but I haven't benched it yet. I'll post those results tonight though!
 
VanGoghComplex said:
the holes in the back are already vertically slotted and the misalignment is only about half a hole's width in the horizontal direction
Click to expand...

Sounds like about 2 minutes with a dremel would fix this. Figure out where you need an extra half hole's worth, and embiggen the slot right there.
 
RazorWind said:
Sounds like about 2 minutes with a dremel would fix this. Figure out where you need an extra half hole's worth, and embiggen the slot right there.
Click to expand...

Yup, custom water loops often involve making minor mods to the metal of the case.

I certainly had to in order to fit my rads in my case.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yup, custom water loops often involve making minor mods to the metal of the case.

I certainly had to in order to fit my rads in my case.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it would have worked okay if that was the only issue. But the overall length (from box top to G1/4" port end) also wouldn't fit between the top radiator mounting bracket rails and the PCIe slot shroud... That one would have taken a little more cutting than I want to do.

Maybe if the temps are bad under benchmark, I'll consider modding the case to make the rad fit, but for now I think I'd rather donate the rad to my little brother so he can get a headstart on his custom loop watercooling adventures. =D
 
Welp, just stress tested it for an hour with RealBench. I'm pleased with the results.

Highest package temperature on the CPU was 59c. Fans were set to a pretty passive curve, so they never got up above 50%. I think I was overly worried about what turned out to be excess radiator for my system as it stands.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
Yeah, it would have worked okay if that was the only issue. But the overall length (from box top to G1/4" port end) also wouldn't fit between the top radiator mounting bracket rails and the PCIe slot shroud... That one would have taken a little more cutting than I want to do.

Maybe if the temps are bad under benchmark, I'll consider modding the case to make the rad fit, but for now I think I'd rather donate the rad to my little brother so he can get a headstart on his custom loop watercooling adventures. =D
Click to expand...

As I mentioned before, try sticking the rad on the outside of the case :p

If you need to, you can always gut an old fan, and use it as a spacer, to create clearance.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
If you need to, you can always gut an old fan, and use it as a spacer, to create clearance.
Click to expand...

I like this idea! I've even got some of the original Phanteks fans that came with my case, so it'll be aesthetically consistent.

I'll do it once my flow indicator comes in... Got a couple other tweaks to make too, may as well do it all once.
 
VanGoghComplex said:
I like this idea! I've even got some of the original Phanteks fans that came with my case, so it'll be aesthetically consistent.

I'll do it once my flow indicator comes in... Got a couple other tweaks to make too, may as well do it all once.
Click to expand...


Yep, Swiftech has been selling what they call a "Radbox" for years. It's a $20 box of plastic. I usually have enough dead fans kicking around, I can just snip off the innards with a set of side cutting pliers and use those instead.

In fact, back before I did my custom loop and ran dual 980ti's with corsair coolers and couldn't fit the H90's I was using to cool them because the hoses didn't reach the front, I bought 4 of the cheapest fans I could find on Amazon with the intent of snipping off the innards and mounting them as spacers in the front of the case so thay would reach.


22375185847_f92cf0b18c_c.jpg



22436204888_f25ac1a4c8_c.jpg



It worked out quite nicely, but apparently I never took a picture of the finished setup (??? I always take a picture when I'm done...) It did require some extra long screws though, but if using just one spacer that shouldn't be a problem.

Either way it's beside the point.

Using a radbox to fit a larger radiator on the back of a case is a long time common approach to custom water loops:

MCB120-P-SHEMATIC-FOR-ASSEM.gif




Some people even use them to mount pretty large ones, though I'd imagine you'd have to be careful to avoid cables coming off of PCIe cards (like GPU's) from going into the fan blades (fan grilles are probably a good idea if going this route)


HPIM2533.jpg


(Image stolen from google image search just to illustrate)

I've actually considered adding another large radiator on the back of mine to help beat the summer heat.

I already have a 3x140 45mm wide radiator up top, and a super thick 2x140mm radiator up front, but I have hot components, and it gets warm in the summer.

As I see it you can never have enough radiator capacity.
 
Zarathustra[H] said:
Yep, Swiftech has been selling what they call a "Radbox" for years. It's a $20 box of plastic. I usually have enough dead fans kicking around, I can just snip off the innards with a set of side cutting pliers and use those instead.

In fact, back before I did my custom loop and ran dual 980ti's with corsair coolers and couldn't fit the H90's I was using to cool them because the hoses didn't reach the front, I bought 4 of the cheapest fans I could find on Amazon with the intent of snipping off the innards and mounting them as spacers in the front of the case so thay would reach.


22375185847_f92cf0b18c_c.jpg



22436204888_f25ac1a4c8_c.jpg



It worked out quite nicely, but apparently I never took a picture of the finished setup (??? I always take a picture when I'm done...) It did require some extra long screws though, but if using just one spacer that shouldn't be a problem.

Either way it's beside the point.

Using a radbox to fit a larger radiator on the back of a case is a long time common approach to custom water loops:

MCB120-P-SHEMATIC-FOR-ASSEM.gif




Some people even use them to mount pretty large ones, though I'd imagine you'd have to be careful to avoid cables coming off of PCIe cards (like GPU's) from going into the fan blades (fan grilles are probably a good idea if going this route)


HPIM2533.jpg


(Image stolen from google image search just to illustrate)

I've actually considered adding another large radiator on the back of mine to help beat the summer heat.

I already have a 3x140 45mm wide radiator up top, and a super thick 2x140mm radiator up front, but I have hot components, and it gets warm in the summer.

As I see it you can never have enough radiator capacity.
Click to expand...
It was a tight fit, but...

IMG_20170327_203724283.jpg


Still need to do the tubing, of course. I'll handle that when my flow indicator comes in, since I'll be draining to install that anyway.

Thanks a million for the great idea!
 
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