I'm certainly not implying the Titan is the only over-priced product ever made. The 2900XT was over priced as was the 7970 and the 8800 Ultra. Can't really complain about those since the 7970 has dropped in price and the other two don't exist any longer and even though they were all over priced, they were still considerably cheaper.
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GTX Titan (final specs and bench)?
- Thread starter GoldenTiger
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I'm certainly not implying the Titan is the only over-priced product ever made. The 2900XT was over priced as was the 7970 and the 8800 Ultra. Can't really complain about those since the 7970 has dropped in price and the other two don't exist any longer and even though they were all over priced, they were still considerably cheaper.
spintroniX
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I'm skeptical they're going to charge $900 for this thing. If it's roughly 150% of the performance of the GTX680 then I can't see it being more than 160-175% of the price.
Another poster suggested $750-$850, and I suspect this is more likely to be the case.
edit: although I could be wrong. The 8800 Ultra was only marginally faster than the 8800GTX but was 160% of the price. The caveat there being that AMD had no competition. Presently, the 7970 is on par with the GTX680 and about $90 cheaper. There is going to be significant overlap between the SLi/CFX market and the market for the Titan.
Another poster suggested $750-$850, and I suspect this is more likely to be the case.
edit: although I could be wrong. The 8800 Ultra was only marginally faster than the 8800GTX but was 160% of the price. The caveat there being that AMD had no competition. Presently, the 7970 is on par with the GTX680 and about $90 cheaper. There is going to be significant overlap between the SLi/CFX market and the market for the Titan.
cannondale06
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sadly $900 sounds about right since it is going to be just a little slower overall than $1000 690. plus it has 6gb of vram which is 3 times as much as the 680 and a 4gb 680 is like 550 bucks.
maybe at the end of the year we will get a Titan 2 with all 15smx and a price of 1200 bucks. lol
Parja
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Pretty sure NVIDIA isn't going to price a niche product like this based on performance/dollar...or at least not as a significant factor. This is a limited production product that's, by far, the best single GPU card on the market. They can, and will, get away with charging a big fat premium. There's quite a few people out there who want the best of the best, no matter the cost.
while the Titan would be a considerable upgrade from your current dual 5850 setup, I would also look into getting a single 680...half the price and you would still get a huge performance boost...
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inglewood78
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Your pricing increase is too linear. premium products are never about value and pricing at the right performance level. Basically. its the ideal of "diminishing returns." Every incremental increase in a value cost more than the previous "same amount" increase. At $900, it will sell out - guarantee it.
GoldenTiger
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Those were top-end of the normal card spectrum. Special editions like dual-GPU cards or Titan doesn't follow that pricing pattern, son. Clueless Ramon is Clueless.
agreed...to me the Titan is just another high end release from Nvidia...the successor to the 680...being that no one knows when the 780 will be released this is just Nvidia releasing a 680.5 and calling it Titan to get people to pay a crazy price for something they believe is 'special'...special to me would be the Titan blowing the doors off of the 690...90% the performance of a 690 is what the upcoming 780 will probably come close to...most people that end up getting Titan will get buyer's remorse within 3 months
Is that right?
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4239/nvidias-geforce-gtx-590-duking-it-out-for-the-single-card-king
Maybe you can explain to me why a 590 was no where near 2x the price of it's single GPU counterpart.
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2584
And the 4870 x2? Also less than twice as much as a 4870
Enter the 6xx generation and a 690 costs well over 2x as much as a 670
I suggest you not try to make up history as you go. You can pretend this pricing is par for the course, but we both know it isn't.
limperatlinks
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The 750-850 price I suggested would be employee pricing, that totally slipped my mind when I threw that out there. So that works out to be 825-945, this was just thrown out there, the only thing that was in stone was "no you can't pre-order one" something they typically do, and you won't be able to purchase one on Monday maybe later in the week "but good luck cause this is a product that all employees plan on making a extra two weeks income from selling on ebay. Mind you these are part time retail workers. With availability being so limited I see only a few folks getting these at the launch, with alot of emails apoligizing that their oos and you can expect a full refund.
inglewood78
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Why does history even matter? I think we can both agree at this price point, it will sell out. Common sense tells me the product is either priced right or underpriced...
limperatlinks
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Nvidia's pricing has gotten more out of control as consumer demand is soft, and the corporate market is stronger than ever, Nvidia basically says their AIBs are lucky to get anything considering the 690 for example sells for 1700-3500 a piece with another 1500 in the typical 3 year warranty plan, plus they see break even targets generation to generation becoming more ridiculous with Maxwell looking almost pointless from a accountants point of view, its also around that time that the big Intel royalty payments end I believe, their just hitting the iron while its hot.
+1
-Single GPU
-MASSIVE increase over previous single GPU card
-Financially obtainable by many enthusiasts.
-Perfect for 27/30" screens (and probably multi-monitors) with latest eye-candy games (FarCry3, etc)
It meets the requirements. It'll sell...and it'll sell fast. A lot of people don't like the $900-1000 price tag because its out of their responsible reach.
The 780 won't have 90% of the performance of the 690. It isn't Maxwell. It is just a Kepler refresh. You might see 15-30%, but I wouldn't expect much more.
Anyways, Titan isn't a card for people like you who could get better performance from a couple 680's. It is for people like me whose resolution requires greater bandwidth and more vram. The extra cores are just the icing on the cake.
limperatlinks
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Your better off spending 1k for a GPU/s and 100-200 on a cpu than the other way around, but I also think the money might be better off spent on 2-680s, SLI is far better than it once was, I could see that argument some years ago but today not so much. Once the bridge is redesigned I see that being the norm once we do get into consumer priced 4k tvs and monitors
normally high end cards are for enthusiasts and they make most of their $$ off of mid-range cards but Titan seems like it's skewing to an even smaller enthusiast market...I just don't see the reasoning behind this release...I think they are doing this mostly for marketing and hype versus actual sales...
limperatlinks
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Thats exactly right, in their eyes their losing money doing this, This just helps sell themselves to the younger bunch who will purchase the shield, cell phones, tablets and the like.
Concisely sums it uo.
are you kidding me ?
I've two 5850's and I've been waiting for a card like titan for ages..
Well marketing hype is important too!! Maybe they are doing it to push kepler to the max to see what it could do with heavy compute and gaming combined which might have implications for the Kepler refresh.
My guess is that they had a lot of waste (binned) parts from the K20x and K20 and decided there was enough to do a limited production run using those binned parts to make a special card. Which is the Titan which will be a gaming and GPGPU in one card. This card will appeal to those trying to break benchmark records as good compute power really helps in benchmarks like 3D mark.
Normal rules don't apply to this card. The points you and Ramon have been making would be fine if this was a normal card, but it isn't.
The benchmarks are pretty consistent, but FPS benchmarks do take a whole system (and, esp., software) into account so there are a variety of factors that come into play. Of course, for the end-user that plays games, these are the only numbers that matter.
But when you look at the capacity, the 680 is quite a bump: 3.1 TFLOPs vs. 1.6 TFLOPs for the GTX 580. Granted, FLOPs aren't the crux of video gaming per se, so it doesn't translate linearly into FPS.
The second thing is that a big push with Kepler was to increase the performance per watt. The GTX 680 is 15.9 GFLOPs / W and the GTX 580 is 6.5 GFLOPs / W.
So there's a pretty significant hardware improvement between the generations. It just needs to be used more efficiently.
it's being marketed as a special card but is that what it really is?...it's looked as such because Nvidia has not released a new cycle refresh since last March...the 700 release is coming anywhere from Q2 to Q4 depending on who you believe...if they had released the 780 series this month how much different would it look compared to Titan?...like I said before Titan is really a 680.5...a real 'titan' would be a beast that crushes the 690
How different was the 580 and the 460? Both are based on Fermi? That really doesn't explain it very well. Both the 680 and the Titan are built on the Kepler architechture, the refresh of the 6xx series will also be based on the kepler architecture, so there are going to be a lot of similarities between them all.
What makes the Titan special? Well that they are releasing it at all for a start, with all the trouble they had with the 28nm change over. The other thing is that they built the Gk110 to be a HPC powerhouse and now it's been turned into a more gaming focused card. Yes it will have most of the DP gimped on the Titan but still, it's so powerful that it will be a beast in synthentic benchmarks. IT should be great in gaming too, especially physx titles and DX11 games which are starting to use more and more compute power. It's sheer size and complexity also makes it kinda special too!!
Whereas the 780 will be just a refresh of the 680. I doubt it will be 50% faster than the 680 nevermind crush a 690.
I should also say that at this point everyone is still just speculating
It could well be that there is going to be loads of these cards available, that they will only cost $600 and only be 30% faster than the 680. Hopefully we will find out on the 18th.
GoldenTiger
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Quoted for truth.
oldmanbal
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i am going to replace my crossfire rig with two of these. I haven't had a chance to see this type of performance leapfrog since I bought a 9700pro 11 or 12 years ago. Anyone posting in this thread that knows what i'm talking about please shout out. I payed out of my ass for that card when i was like 19 or something and back then it was all the money i had to my name pretty much. While i won't really get that sick 'i can just turn everything up and actually use AA now' feeling, It's going to be a hell of a horse to play around with and crank the living shit out of anything I can find to melt. I find it rather interesting that they are co-releasing it with crysis 3.. Sneaky mother Kers. . .putting your damn finger on my enthusiast g spot
It matters when the person I was replying to says that special cards AND dual GPU cards always sell for this type of premium, which is not a correct statement. If GoldenTiger wants to prove a point, he should be able to do it without making up statistics, especially when they're clearly wrong. I agree that it will sell out, but I think it has a lot more to do with an artificial supply shortage than it being a killer deal.
As far as the card itself, I'm excited about it even though I don't have plans on buying one unless its performance surprises everyone and performs 90% faster than my 680. I will then feverishly press F5 until im able to add it to my cart and proceed to sell my 680. If its more like 65% faster then ill sit back and read the forums with envy.
limperatlinks
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I run my cards at very similar clocks as you, if 1 card is run we are seeing 65-90 percent of what the 690 offers, thats looking at 10-12 games, unigine and 3dmark at 1920x1200 and 2560x1600. On average the percentages look slightly stronger at the higher resolution. The post on the other Titan thread showing the HIS 7970 running Battlefield 3 is what peaked my interest, but TPU did that review back in November and the drivers have helped a little since.
Red Falcon
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HyperMatrix
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Actually the it would be very unlikely for the 780 to "Crush" the 690. Pretty well no previous generation of card has been able to dominate its predecessor in SLI. That would require a nearly 2x increase, and that really doesn't happen.
Based on some numbers I've ran, the GTX 780 should come out anywhere from 5%-15% faster than the GTX Titan, but with lower power use (roughly 5%-10% higher than GTX 680) and a smaller price tag of between $500-$600 thanks to 22nm fab process. The numbers I ran are on the assumption that Nvidia wouldn't be stupid enough to release a 780 that's slower than the Titan, which is where my original estimation of the 780 would have fallen (had it been released now, as opposed to the Titan). All they've done with the Titan is put out a "True" 680 as they were supposed to initially (remember the 680 was never intended to be the 680). They used the same die size in the titan as they had in the gtx 580. So the cost for Nvidia goes up. But it allows them to get one last hurrah out of the 28nm process.
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I agree for the most part...I think Nvidia's branding of this as 'Titan' maybe is what I'm having more of an issue with...it's not a titan...like you said it's just the true GTX 680 or as I like to call it, the 680.5...a normal video card refresh that due to various reasons got pushed back
HyperMatrix
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And honestly....I'm ok with that. And I'll tell you why. In 90% of games today, you will be CPU limited before you're GPU limited. I found this out the hard way when I picked up 4x GTX 680 Classified 4GB for some Quad-SLI fun. 3770k only OC's to 4.6ghz, unfortunately. But even the extra 9% from hitting 5ghz doesn't help much at all with how poorly optimized some games are. The majority of the time I'm sitting at 30-50% usage, with everything completely maxed out. Simply because CPU's are holding back performance. If Nvidia puts out a single card solution that is too powerful for todays games, it kills the whole concept of SLI and lowers its sales. The same thing with the Titan. If someone buys the Titan instead of a GTX 690, Nvidia misses out on the profit from selling 2 cards. So they jack up the price of the single card. (the 690 already had extra $$ added to compensate for loss of 2 card sales).
limperatlinks
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The 780 is a 28nm product, you wont see 20nm till maxwell and their sending signals that its going to be a tough road forward with APUs from AMD and Intel picking up market share. And you should have known a 3770k was going to hold back that kind of power, you may want to invest in a 3930k with a solid X79 board. The K20/x was 3 years in the making, it was never held back, it was delivered to Cray as that contract was in the works for years. The 680/690 were designed with SP in mind not DP, nothing was held back. Nvidia shouldnt need to use big, hot, costly die's to edge out AMD, and that was another focus with Kepler which obviously was successful.
HyperMatrix
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It would be impossible for Nvidia to put out a 780 using 28nm, without making it equal to or inferior to the Titan. But seeing your comment regarding the 3770k vs 3930k for gaming...I'm not sure how much credit I should give you. As current generation games only use a limited number of cores, the 3770k will actually provide better performance for gaming than a 3930k in an overall gaming benchmark.
You just need to run higher settings/ more graphics mods/ higher resolution. Its also a bit of an unfair comparison since most games are so poorly threaded.
HyperMatrix
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I run 1440p 120Hz. All settings maxed out. 32x CSAA. Between 4x-8x transparency AA. Doesn't help when a game like Farcry 3 has me limited to as low as 80fps~ in some areas while the GPU's never go above 70%.
The only game that's actually maxed out all 4 cards that I can think of is Skyrim maxed out with mods.
Get an EVGA and spend a bit extra to sign up for their Trade up program. If Titan releases and you have remorse about buying the 680 you can swap it in.
cannondale06
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lol, you actually think Titan will be in the step up program?
Haha, this^
WorldExclusive
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lol wut?
The GTX 780 will be on the same 28nm process.
You think a Kepler GK114 "refresh" will yield a 60-90% boost in performance over the GK104 to beat the Titan?
Laughter.
This is funny too.
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