Greenpeace Vandalizes HP Corporate HQ

The-UselessNoob

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So just because you agree with their cause that makes piracy acceptable? What delusional world are you living in? Acts of piracy/terrorism are NEVER acceptable just because you happen to agree with the cause.

Where do you draw the line between piracy/terrorism and justified violence? Is it justified if you have a majority on your side? Calling something a terrorist act is just branding it as evil. It has been said earlier that terrorist is the new communist, you can justify almost anything with it.
 

ChairmanMiau

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it's the same reason why organized crime is still around. They can take a few members down for petty shit, or build a file and put a bunch of key players in jail for a laundry list of crimes.

They'll never be able to take an ENTIRE organization down, it's just not possible or efficient to do. Besides, as a lobby group, they have all kinds of politicians pockets greased that come to their aid ;) (as with any political group)

Are you talking about the RIAA? :0
 

TechieSooner

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Where do you draw the line between piracy/terrorism and justified violence? Is it justified if you have a majority on your side? Calling something a terrorist act is just branding it as evil. It has been said earlier that terrorist is the new communist, you can justify almost anything with it.

Terrorism is using terror to promote an agenda.

PETA using firebombs on a building (I'd call that terror) to promote their agenda?

Check.

I wouldn't really call this one particular case terrorism, and am not familiar with everything they've done in the past, so I'm not sure about Greenpeace. But PETA, yes.
 

Kristofff

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the same can be said for the ku Klux Klan (they have their own website) ;) yet, I don't think any rational human being would agree with that.

Whatever, people aren't going to change their opinions over some random post on the internet so arguing about it is pointless. To each their own. If you are involved with some stuff like that just use common sense, it's a good way to get the wrong kind of attention brought upon yourself ;) You are the company you keep (guilt by association)

Racism is not a crime, nor is it a terrorist act. Not to mention that the local governments at the time condoned their horrible crimes of the past. Show me these rampant lynchings and popular burning crosses dotting the landscapes of today.

Nice attempt at a troll there at the end. You might want to get your skills up if you want to win some internets.

So throwing crap onto someone else's vessel isn't physical aggression? Boarding someone else's vessel isn't physical aggression? I'd consider that a form of violence, myself (Which is also defined as "physical force").
Go back and read the bolding in a)

Read it and "Private ends" easily covers their goals as theirs goal privately benefits their cause. That is fairly vague terminology with purpose as to cover acts of privateers as well as they are pirates for a large organization (Apparently you forgot what you were taught in history). I am also pretty sure throwing fire bombs which has been televised of them doing, quantifies as an act of violence, if you think not then feel free to throw one at a corporate building and see just how quick you end up in jail on charges of terrorism. The reason there aren't any conventions calling to declare is a pirate organization is no one wants to be the one accused of supporting the actions of the whalers. We live in a day and age where the media can slander anyone they wish and utterly ruin someones life just for ratings. Any public figure that took a stand against this would have their career destroyed.
You can't just will away reality and replace it with your own skewed fantasy. It is clear about what is and what isn't piracy and the Sea Shepards actions are not piracy just because you don't agree with them.
RIAA is still around, no?
So is the U.S. Government. What is your point?
Terrorism is using terror to promote an agenda.

PETA using firebombs on a building (I'd call that terror) to promote their agenda?

Check.

I wouldn't really call this one particular case terrorism, and am not familiar with everything they've done in the past, so I'm not sure about Greenpeace. But PETA, yes.
So, the RIAA are terrorists for using legal terror to promote their agenda? Anyways, "terrorism" has a new conotation today and has evolved with the times and you can't just run around applying it to every fucking thing that scares or upsets you.
 

TechieSooner

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Go back and read the bolding in a)
I did. Apparently you're the one that needs a reading lesson. I'll even break it into sections for the more intellectually challenged:

(a) any illegal acts of violence OR detention, OR any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

So piracy is acts of violence committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft

Piracy is also acts of detention committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed

Piracy is also acts of depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed.


As I just typed that out I realize how absolutely ridiculous it is that I even had to do that... What in the world is with our educational system today?

I was speaking about the violence one in particular. Violence is also defined as "physical force", which would include forcing yourself onto another's vessel and forcefully throwing crap onto the other vessel's deck.

Therefore, they're pirates.



So, the RIAA are terrorists for using legal terror to promote their agenda? Anyways, "terrorism" has a new conotation today and has evolved with the times and you can't just run around applying it to every fucking thing that scares or upsets you.
Depends if you consider it fear. If it's fear, you could indeed consider it terrorism.
IMO the RIAA tries to sue everyone to make them feel scared so they won't steal music. Using fear to produce a result? That's terrorism.
 

nilepez

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Some have, however I have not. I was very clear that this particular incident is not an act of terrorism, merely the act of organized crime.



Correct, however they are still affiliated as a group and said group condones, supports and perpetuates acts of terrorism in the name of their cause. That is why my stance is, the groups as a whole should be disbanded forcefully and many members arrested and prosecuted as such.

Another example of these groups is the mentioned Whale War's playing on Animal planet. I literally had bile in my throat when I saw this being glorified on television by animal planet. While I do not in any way condone the acts of the Japanese whalers, the solution is not to commit acts of blatant piracy against them. The fact that it is put in animal planet as anything other then what it is, is utterly revolting. Every single member of that crew should be arrested in the spot when they come into port and tried as pirates under international law since their acts are committed in international waters.

Eh. The Japanese are breaking the law....if this was in U.S. waters, I'd be right with you, but it's not. And let's get real...there's absolutely no way the U.S. or other countries are going to expend political chips to save the whales.....the Japanese have been doing this for decades.
 

nilepez

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Only to disrupt it is all they accomplish. They're not stopping anything. They're just pissing the whalers off is all they're doing. If you want to truly stop something like that, force is the only way to do it. They *need* to become more like pirates if they want to do anything about it.

I'm all for saving some whales and dolphins, believe me... But these people are going about it the completely wrong way. Only thing whalers are going to understand is a heavy hand.

They make it much harder for the whalers to get kill whales. The ships get less whales, which makes it less profitable and means less whales die.

But since you so vehemently disagree with the method, come up with another solution.
Right now, it seems like the green hand is the only hand.
 

Kristofff

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I did. Apparently you're the one that needs a reading lesson. I'll even break it into sections for the more intellectually challenged:

(a) any illegal acts of violence OR detention, OR any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

So piracy is acts of violence committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft

Piracy is also acts of detention committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed

Piracy is also acts of depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed.


As I just typed that out I realize how absolutely ridiculous it is that I even had to do that... What in the world is with our educational system today?

I was speaking about the violence one in particular. Violence is also defined as "physical force", which would include forcing yourself onto another's vessel and forcefully throwing crap onto the other vessel's deck.

Therefore, they're pirates.




Depends if you consider it fear. If it's fear, you could indeed consider it terrorism.
IMO the RIAA tries to sue everyone to make them feel scared so they won't steal music. Using fear to produce a result? That's terrorism.

Yea its nice that you can froth at the mouth on cue, but you are still wrong. Its not for private ends. I don't know what kind of history books you have, but the pirates of old weren't any sort of activists unless you consider the Boston Tea Party an act of piracy. Private ends means you do it for personal gain for a private party or for yourself. I'm trying to see the logic of how you construe that to mean trying to stop (illegal?) whaling disguised as research as being a private end. The best you could possibly argue is that they have a show about it and profit from that, but barring that excuse, your logic fails.
 

TechieSooner

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They make it much harder for the whalers to get kill whales. The ships get less whales, which makes it less profitable and means less whales die.

But since you so vehemently disagree with the method, come up with another solution.
Right now, it seems like the green hand is the only hand.
Gladly. Use force.
They're pirates anyways, just use force (rubber bullets, sandbags, whatever)... And do something about it. Bringing a knife to a gun fight just pisses the people off more than it helps your cause.

Private ends means you do it for personal gain for a private party or for yourself
So Pirates don't do it for personal gain? Gotcha. :rolleyes:
 

nilepez

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Gladly. Use force.
They're pirates anyways, just use force (rubber bullets, sandbags, whatever)... And do something about it. Bringing a knife to a gun fight just pisses the people off more than it helps your cause.


So Pirates don't do it for personal gain? Gotcha. :rolleyes:

WOW! How the hell did you read Kristoff's post and conclude he was saying Pirates don't do things for personal gain? It's pretty clear he was saying that Pirates DO commit acts for personal gain.

Your entire knife to a gun fight bit doesn't make any sense at all. Their goal is to make it harder for the whalers to kill whales and to make that task as expensive as possible. What do you think they should do, bring RPGs or submarine with missiles?

I really don't get how anyone can get upset about GP (or anyone else) for interfering with these ships that are clearly breaking international law. Maybe some other official body to intervene, but that's not going to happen. The Japanese have been doing this for more than 20 years without much more than a hand slap saying, "you're not supposed to do that."
 

TechieSooner

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WOW! How the hell did you read Kristoff's post and conclude he was saying Pirates don't do things for personal gain? It's pretty clear he was saying that Pirates DO commit acts for personal gain.
Then why on earth is he arguing with me?
Therefore, they're pirates.

Your entire knife to a gun fight bit doesn't make any sense at all. Their goal is to make it harder for the whalers to kill whales and to make that task as expensive as possible. What do you think they should do, bring RPGs or submarine with missiles?
Reading comprehension fail:
They're pirates anyways, just use force (rubber bullets, sandbags, whatever)... And do something about it


I really don't get how anyone can get upset about GP (or anyone else) for interfering with these ships that are clearly breaking international law.
Maybe because they're breaking international law in the process?
AND hurting their cause?
 

The-UselessNoob

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Then why on earth is he arguing with me?

Maybe because they're breaking international law in the process?
AND hurting their cause?

Correct me if I am wrong but kristoff was making the point that:
1) pirates do stuff with private gain
2) the anti-whaling thing (whatever it is called) is not doing it for private gain
3) thus the anti-whalers are not pirates.
 

TechieSooner

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Correct me if I am wrong but kristoff was making the point that:
1) pirates do stuff with private gain
2) the anti-whaling thing (whatever it is called) is not doing it for private gain
3) thus the anti-whalers are not pirates.

That was my assumption as well.

My whole thing is that these anti-whalers fit right under the definitions of pirates as well.

Therefore, I don't think they're any better. If you're going to act like pirates, might as well bring some heavier altilary to the table and actually do something about it.
 

The-UselessNoob

Limp Gawd
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That was my assumption as well.

My whole thing is that these anti-whalers fit right under the definitions of pirates as well.

Therefore, I don't think they're any better. If you're going to act like pirates, might as well bring some heavier altilary to the table and actually do something about it.

It is possible the case could be made that they are doing it for private ends, ie: for ratings and whatnot, but otherwise I don't think they really fit the legal definition. morally it doesn't really work at all in that they are just trying to impress their beliefs on other people.

Also the problem with using real artillery is that right now they are doing stuff that is pretty low key, and even if we were for the sake of argument to admit that their techniques are piracy, no one really cares, but when stuff starts getting dangerous to human lives, someone is bound to put a stop to it.
 

TechieSooner

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It is possible the case could be made that they are doing it for private ends, ie: for ratings and whatnot, but otherwise I don't think they really fit the legal definition. morally it doesn't really work at all in that they are just trying to impress their beliefs on other people.
Pirates aren't trying to impress their beliefs, either.
 

Kristofff

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Gladly. Use force.
They're pirates anyways, just use force (rubber bullets, sandbags, whatever)... And do something about it. Bringing a knife to a gun fight just pisses the people off more than it helps your cause. :
They don't want to get themselves killed, you fool.

So Pirates don't do it for personal gain? Gotcha. :rolleyes
:
You consider gratification of a good cause to be personal gain? Sorry bud, they aren't pirates, the whalers are long before the anti-whalers are even close to being considered pirates.

That was my assumption as well.

My whole thing is that these anti-whalers fit right under the definitions of pirates as well.
NO. THEY. DONT.

Therefore, I don't think they're any better. If you're going to act like pirates, might as well bring some heavier altilary to the table and actually do something about it.
That will do nothing for their cause and only hurt it and probably get them killed. Your complete lack of intelligent thought here is enough to dismiss your opinion on the matter.

Pirates aren't trying to impress their beliefs, either.
Makes sense seeing as anti-whalers aren't pirates, huh?
 

beowulf7

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I hope these frigging hippies get caught and executed. Can't stand those schmucks. I'm referring to Greenpeace. :mad:
 

Dekoth

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Because you're making the ridiculous argument that the whale guys are pirates.

Except the argument isn't ridiculous as they are. The definition of pirate fits them squarely. Just because you happen to believe their cause doesn't make it any less true. You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" all day, but at the end of the day they are still pirates and two wrongs "Still" don't make a right. I know we learned that little concept in kindergarten so it appears most in this thread have forgotten the basest of lessons taught to us as kids.
 

Kristofff

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Except the argument isn't ridiculous as they are. The definition of pirate fits them squarely. Just because you happen to believe their cause doesn't make it any less true. You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" all day, but at the end of the day they are still pirates and two wrongs "Still" don't make a right. I know we learned that little concept in kindergarten so it appears most in this thread have forgotten the basest of lessons taught to us as kids.

Except the argument is more ridiculous as they are. The definition of pirate hardly fits them squarely. Just because you happen to hate their cause doesn't make it any less true. You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" all day, but at the end of the day they are still not pirates even though two wrongs "Still" don't make a right. Luckily, most people learned that just because you don't like someone it doesn't mean you get to label them as other unrelated bad things.
 

TechieSooner

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Except the argument is more ridiculous as they are. The definition of pirate hardly fits them squarely.
We've already been over this. Yes, it does. I'll even simplify it EVEN MORE so a ten year old could understand this:

(a) any illegal acts of violence OR detention, OR any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

So piracy is acts of violence committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship

Piracy is also acts of detention committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship

Piracy is also acts of depredation committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship

I was speaking about the violence one in particular. Violence is also defined as "physical force", which would include forcing yourself onto another's vessel and forcefully throwing crap onto the other vessel's deck.

Therefore, they're pirates
 

nilepez

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Except the argument isn't ridiculous as they are. The definition of pirate fits them squarely. Just because you happen to believe their cause doesn't make it any less true. You can stick your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" all day, but at the end of the day they are still pirates and two wrongs "Still" don't make a right. I know we learned that little concept in kindergarten so it appears most in this thread have forgotten the basest of lessons taught to us as kids.

I've seen the definition. This doesn't meat the definition of pirate. If you want to claim that what they're doing is illegal, I'll acknowledge that it might be illegal (as is the actions of the whalers), but that doesn't make them pirates.

This is like all the fucking idiots who said painting the HP roof was a terrorist act. It wasn't and this isn't an act of piracy.
 

nilepez

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We've already been over this. Yes, it does. I'll even simplify it EVEN MORE so a ten year old could understand this:

Clearly the problem is you don't understand the English language.

From your definition
(a) any illegal acts of violence OR detention, OR any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

Let's start with the all of those or statements.

Do they imprison the Japanese crew? Nope....so no there's no detention.
They don't rob/plunder/steal anything, so that pretty much knocks out depredation.

So we're left with illegal acts of violence. Let's assume that one is true.

Before delving one bit further into your definition, let's now note that it's pretty fucking clear that the Japanese fit your incredibly broad interpretation of the definition of Piracy. Hard to believe you're so upset about pirates committing acts of piracy against other pirates

Oh but let's move on, shall we? for Private ends. The GP crew do not steal anything from the other ship.


Again, if you're going to rest on violent acts, that would mean that if you're on a ship and you kick some guys ass to bang is wife, you're a pirate. Not because you got his wife, but because you illegally committed an act of violence.

Hell, at this point any violent act on a boat is piracy.


That leaves us with illegal acts of Violence. OK. Let's say that one is true.

Of course, we use the commonly accepted definition of piracy, it becomes all to clear that you know not of what you write. But hell, it's the internet, where we never let facts get in the way opinions.



Main Entry:
pi·ra·cy Listen to the pronunciation of piracy
Pronunciation: \ˈpī-rə-sē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural pi·ra·cies
Etymology: Medieval Latin piratia, from Late Greek peirateia, from Greek peiratēs pirate
Date: 1537

1: an act of robbery on the high seas ; also : an act resembling such robbery
2: robbery on the high seas
3 a: the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright b: the illicit accessing of broadcast signals
 
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