Great news everybody! RTX 30 series hashing limiter partially defeated!

blackmomba

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Wish we could get more info about how it was done. I know AMD drivers still have that 'GPU workload' option that you can use to toggle between compute and graphics, never really knew what that did but I wonder if it's something along the same lines that Nvidia has but just hasn't exposed to the end user ? Wonder if we have any crypto or mining devs amonst us
 

Lakados

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Wish we could get more info about how it was done. I know AMD drivers still have that 'GPU workload' option that you can use to toggle between compute and graphics, never really knew what that did but I wonder if it's something along the same lines that Nvidia has but just hasn't exposed to the end user ? Wonder if we have any crypto or mining devs amonst us
Well on their site and in the GitHub notes they call it a “partial work around”. I’m guessing they found a way to mask part of the algorithm from detection or to augment the limiter in some way to open it up a little.
 

travm

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Here we go again!

gonna be real interesting when high end gaming PCs just use high end APUs.

video cards will become the “math coprocessors” of the 2020s.
I actually wish this was a thing years ago. I think we're just starting to reach the point where GPU tech isn't advancing faster than CPU's, such that a high end APU makes sense. Especially if mGPU is ever adopted, by anyone.... So you could add a discrete card and get performance increases. Now we just need intel to launch a badass APU and force AMD to react. The technology appears to exist.

edit. Sigh, miners will just buy all those too, i'm going to go play with a cardboard box.
 

sfsuphysics

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That's an entirely different scenario. Of course not. This is 100% artificial though.
Agreed that's a different scenario, but what if the outcome was the same? There was a graphic card, and it made cool graphics at acceptable FPS.
 

MaZa

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I consider any defeat of this abhorrent, purposefull limitation of a GPU's function to be great news. This feature cannot and should not be normalized or it will only lead to even worse restrictions in future generations the moment they smell money and figure the public will accept it. Hopefully the other 30% can be defeated ASAP .

So you are willing to sacrifice PC gaming for the sake of misguided sense of freedom? Because that is where this will lead to, GPU's becoming nonexistent for us gamers as miners (and scalpers benefitting from it) hoard all of them. The hashrate limiter does not even affect gaming, it is all about mining which these cards are not even marketed for. The fear of "future restrictions" is completely baseless in this case.

If you are a miner then good for you. I personally weep for the damages it does to my hobby.
 

bal3wolf

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70% might keep your hardcore miners away still and still let gamers make some money while they are gaming.
 

MaZa

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*squints in soapbox*

Made from genuine human fat.

On a more serious note, it probably shows but because of the all the antivaxxer stuff going around "freedom" arguments without seeing the big picture are starting to irk me. Not related to this thread so I will leave it at that.
 
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Ready4Dis

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So you are willing to sacrifice PC gaming for the sake of misguided sense of freedom? Because that is where this will lead to, GPU's becoming nonexistent for us gamers as miners (and scalpers benefitting from it) hoard all of them. The hashrate limiter does not even affect gaming, it is all about mining which these cards are not even marketed for. The fear of "future restrictions" is completely baseless in this case.

If you are a miner then good for you. I personally weep for the damages it does to my hobby.
Misguided? We're seeing it in other markets and this is Nvidia testing the waters.... I'm not sure I can understand why the writing on the wall from a company known to not do the right thing for their customers isn't as obvious to some. I am against artificial restrictions in general, it's not an Nvidia thing, it's a John Deere and Tesla thing too (just random examples from other markets). My newest card is a Vega 64 in my son's PC that I got second hand on here at a reasonable price. I can't afford to spend the money on a 3090, heck, even a 3060 is above what im willing to pay at the moment. Yet my view is still that of being against software limiting of hardware. Unless it's something relating to the safety of people (aka, we limit this so it doesn't hurt someone) then I am pretty much against it carte blanche. Of course they would start off with something that 'benefits' you, then the next restriction will not benefit but not hurt you, then the next one will only be a minor inconvenience, then the next one will by annoying but everyone is used to them it'll be the norm and to late to start complaining.
 

MaZa

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Misguided? We're seeing it in other markets and this is Nvidia testing the waters.... I'm not sure I can understand why the writing on the wall from a company known to not do the right thing for their customers isn't as obvious to some. I am against artificial restrictions in general, it's not an Nvidia thing, it's a John Deere and Tesla thing too (just random examples from other markets). My newest card is a Vega 64 in my son's PC that I got second hand on here at a reasonable price. I can't afford to spend the money on a 3090, heck, even a 3060 is above what im willing to pay at the moment. Yet my view is still that of being against software limiting of hardware. Unless it's something relating to the safety of people (aka, we limit this so it doesn't hurt someone) then I am pretty much against it carte blanche. Of course they would start off with something that 'benefits' you, then the next restriction will not benefit but not hurt you, then the next one will only be a minor inconvenience, then the next one will by annoying but everyone is used to them it'll be the norm and to late to start complaining.

This is certainly a difficult situation and normally I would also agree, but not in the case of mining. Not only is it incredibly damaging to our hobby it also has enviromental concerns if you consider how much electricity mining farms waste. I believe this should fall into the "safety of the people area", considering it just may have an effect on the world as a whole. And Nvidia has been pain in the ass of all gamers with stupid shit they pull (like hardware Physx) but that is more a competition problem. Or severe lack of because AMD GPU department has been in the rut for a decade and only now are they slowly climbing out of it. Anyway, what other restrictions can they possibly do based on this miner "water testing?" They are already doing stupid stuff for us gamers whenever they think they might have a chance on creating something proprietary. This is why I am saying that the fear of future restrictions are baseless, they are already doing dumb stuff and out of all their stunts the hash rate limiter is probably one of the few beneficial things for us, unless you are a miner.
 

Ready4Dis

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This is certainly a difficult situation and normally I would also agree, but not in the case of mining. Not only is it incredibly damaging to our hobby it also has enviromental concerns if you consider how much electricity mining farms waste. I believe this should fall into the "safety of the people area", considering it just may have an effect on the world as a whole. And Nvidia has been pain in the ass of all gamers with stupid shit they pull (like hardware Physx) but that is more a competition problem. Or severe lack of because AMD GPU department has been in the rut for a decade and only now are they slowly climbing out of it. Anyway, what other restrictions can they possibly do based on this miner "water testing?" They are already doing stupid stuff for us gamers whenever they think they might have a chance on creating something proprietary. This is why I am saying that the fear of future restrictions are baseless, they are already doing dumb stuff and out of all their stunts the hash rate limiter is probably one of the few beneficial things for us, unless you are a miner.
Getting a bit off topic so I'll keep this short. I don't agree with your large scale assessment because there are many things that people do that aren't good for the environment, I would even be willing to bet there is more chance of a miner using solar or renewable or excess energy than a gamer, so that argument is not really valid for this purpose. If you want to argue that mining should be done away with or outlawed from the government or some sort of regulation on their power source/usage, that would be a valid piece of an argument.
So, I still hope they can 100% bypass it and/or convince Nvidia it was stupid to begin with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, just explaining mine.
 

MaZa

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Getting a bit off topic so I'll keep this short. I don't agree with your large scale assessment because there are many things that people do that aren't good for the environment, I would even be willing to bet there is more chance of a miner using solar or renewable or excess energy than a gamer, so that argument is not really valid for this purpose. If you want to argue that mining should be done away with or outlawed from the government or some sort of regulation on their power source/usage, that would be a valid piece of an argument.
So, I still hope they can 100% bypass it and/or convince Nvidia it was stupid to begin with. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, just explaining mine.

So, agree to disagee. I am fine that. 👍
 
D

Deleted member 89018

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When it comes down to it, isn’t it the same as using your video card for folding@home or similar DC efforts?

It’s just that there wasn’t a run on GPUs because there was no profit to be made in SETI.

So now it’s an issue because PC gaming isn’t just about gaming, it’s about getting the best ROI on your video card?
 

noko

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I downloaded and it was immediately flagged having a trojan, not willing to take the risk for 18% increase in hashrate for ETH. Once it hits Awesome Miner, I might try again if no major flags come about.
 

Comixbooks

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A GPU is suppose be used for either gaming, programming, CG or AI. Not polluting the world into a immediate Crypto trash bin for people who are too lazy to work.
 
D

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A GPU is suppose be used for either gaming, programming, CG or AI. Not polluting the world into a immediate Crypto trash bin for people who are too lazy to work.

how dare they use general purpose compute hardware for something other than your arbitrary list of functions!

argh I can’t believe people are doing physics simulations on regular Ryzen! That should be threadripper only!

ugh no one should use a phone to browse the internet! Mobile processors are only for making phone calls!

the only way to get what you want is for there to be GPUs with all fixed-function hardware, and games using APIs that don’t rely on genera purpose compute, like we had before the introduction of GPGPU capabilities in shaders.

you guys wanna go back to DirectX7?
 

Endgame

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how dare they use general purpose compute hardware for something other than your arbitrary list of functions!

argh I can’t believe people are doing physics simulations on regular Ryzen! That should be threadripper only!

ugh no one should use a phone to browse the internet! Mobile processors are only for making phone calls!

the only way to get what you want is for there to be GPUs with all fixed-function hardware, and games using APIs that don’t rely on genera purpose compute, like we had before the introduction of GPGPU capabilities in shaders.

you guys wanna go back to DirectX7?
Why stop at Direct X 7 ? A modern upgrade to Glide would be fine if it meant I didn’t have compete with miners to buy a card.
 
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Slade

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I mine on the side with my cards. I picked up a 3070ti the other day since learning about the partial fix. It's earning $100 usd per month and I game on it too; windows gpu scheduling allows it to mine and game at the same time albeit at a reduced rate as it puts focus on your primary task. It's on my htpc and I use that to do racing simulator to get in practice time before actually going on track.

My 3090 runs at 59% and also mines on the side, same deal as I game on it when I want and the mining just goes reduced while I play. 3090 is pretty much the best card to do both mining at an efficient rate AND game at same time.
 

Lakados

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Misguided? We're seeing it in other markets and this is Nvidia testing the waters.... I'm not sure I can understand why the writing on the wall from a company known to not do the right thing for their customers isn't as obvious to some. I am against artificial restrictions in general, it's not an Nvidia thing, it's a John Deere and Tesla thing too (just random examples from other markets). My newest card is a Vega 64 in my son's PC that I got second hand on here at a reasonable price. I can't afford to spend the money on a 3090, heck, even a 3060 is above what im willing to pay at the moment. Yet my view is still that of being against software limiting of hardware. Unless it's something relating to the safety of people (aka, we limit this so it doesn't hurt someone) then I am pretty much against it carte blanche. Of course they would start off with something that 'benefits' you, then the next restriction will not benefit but not hurt you, then the next one will only be a minor inconvenience, then the next one will by annoying but everyone is used to them it'll be the norm and to late to start complaining.
NVidia has been segregating their market since the launch of the Quadro lineup, did it further with the launch of the Tesla lineup. This isn’t new. If mining is making as much money as they say it is then they can easily afford the mining series cards or the Quadro, A, or Tesla series cards.

Miners just new to the scene, but you think all those major animation studios or engineering firms wouldn’t be using 3060’s instead of A4000 if there weren’t artificial restrictions on the existing software/hardware already?

That said NVidia may get to try to define their market segmentation but modders, hackers, and general enthusiasts have always and will always work to circumvent them. So the dance continues, somebody will break it, and for next gen NVidia will make it better and round and round we go.
 
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noko

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A GPU is suppose be used for either gaming, programming, CG or AI. Not polluting the world into a immediate Crypto trash bin for people who are too lazy to work.
lol :LOL:, your property means you can do what you want with it as long as it is legal. Now do you like when others tell you what you can do with your stuff? Plus those who mine are too lazy to work??? Mining is not as easy as some think, asset allocation, right coin, right hardware and so on. Plus some of us just keep their older cards that still mine, almost stupid not to mine but then that is my opinion.
 

Slade

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A GPU is suppose be used for either gaming, programming, CG or AI. Not polluting the world into a immediate Crypto trash bin for people who are too lazy to work.
I guess you want to tell me that my Z06 is also polluting the planet and I shouldn't track that either. A car is for getting you from point a to b and should be boring as hell too right?

I use all of nvidia's product stack from laptops to DGX servers for my daily work and my home life. I run crypto on the side on my personal stuff only and do research across the quadro line and DGX line all day. If there is something about segmentiation, I've experienced it all. You know what? I say screw it and I've been taking things I develop on DGX and bringing it down to consumer level gear as low as the 2070 and 1050 gtx. Some of my partners in industry can't afford to run DGX servers so it's in my best interest to redevelop ai and machine learning technologies down in scale to something more affordable.
 

hititnquitit

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How many times, in how many threads, can we have the very same borrrrring debates?
Am i wrong? Someone gets mad that people are mining (for any of a bazillion reasons). Someone else is equally angry that someone has the gall to be mad about people mining.
We've become so so predictable and seemingly incapable of taking the high road when baited by the same tired, worm.

Gpus were only meant for games!
If not for those dastardly miners gpus wouldn't be so hard to find!
Miners are destroying the environment!
YOU cant tell ME what to do with MY gear!
You have to be stupid not to mine!
Your leaving money on the table if your not mining!
And on and on.

Before the usual noise, there were excellent points being made. The thread was interesting and worth reading.
Now? Were right where all of the other threads ended up before they petered out and died.
 

noko

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How many times, in how many threads, can we have the very same borrrrring debates?
Am i wrong? Someone gets mad that people are mining (for any of a bazillion reasons). Someone else is equally angry that someone has the gall to be mad about people mining.
We've become so so predictable and seemingly incapable of taking the high road when baited by the same tired, worm.

Gpus were only meant for games!
If not for those dastardly miners gpus wouldn't be so hard to find!
Miners are destroying the environment!
YOU cant tell ME what to do with MY gear!
You have to be stupid not to mine!
Your leaving money on the table if your not mining!
And on and on.

Before the usual noise, there were excellent points being made. The thread was interesting and worth reading.
Now? Were right where all of the other threads ended up before they petered out and died.
Back on topic, who is currently using NBMiner 39.0? As said before, the Trojan hit stopped my progress, anyone go further and tested it?
 

Slade

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I am trying out nbminer right now. It has a slight edge of 2MH over nanominer on my 3090 for the same power. On the 3070ti, I have no choice but to use nbminer as nanominer is gimped by the LHR. 3070ti nanominer does 37MH, while nbminer can hit 47MH

For any mining program, if you want to game and mine at same time, make sure you turn on hardware accelerated GPU scheduling. I can't recall which win10 update added that feature, but when it's off, you will find your FPS drop significantly and mining performance 0 out if you try to game at the same time.
 

arnemetis

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I am trying out nbminer right now. It has a slight edge of 2MH over nanominer on my 3090 for the same power. On the 3070ti, I have no choice but to use nbminer as nanominer is gimped by the LHR. 3070ti nanominer does 37MH, while nbminer can hit 47MH

For any mining program, if you want to game and mine at same time, make sure you turn on hardware accelerated GPU scheduling. I can't recall which win10 update added that feature, but when it's off, you will find your FPS drop significantly and mining performance 0 out if you try to game at the same time.
I just discovered this last night myself. My 3090 still tanks pretty heavily on the mining performance (less than half to a quarter) depending on how intense the game is, but that makes sense. Now the games play smoothly and I at least get some mining done with what performance is left over.
 
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arnemetis

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Back on topic, who is currently using NBMiner 39.0? As said before, the Trojan hit stopped my progress, anyone go further and tested it?
I haven't looked into it, I think raven and ergo on lhr are still more profitable anyway.
 

chrcoluk

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How is this good news?

It is interesting that FE models are apparently not LHR but AIB's are as if Nvidia has lost confidence in their board partners.
 

noko

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How is this good news?

It is interesting that FE models are apparently not LHR but AIB's are as if Nvidia has lost confidence in their board partners.
Nvidia has an option of selling FE cards in large quantities to miners while locking out the AIBs at the same time. How kind Nvidia is.
 

DPI

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It is interesting that FE models are apparently not LHR but AIB's are as if Nvidia has lost confidence in their board partners.

Not following. There's no loss of confidence in anything or anyone. LHR was Nvidia's attempt at a hedge against any sudden drops in the fiat exchange rate of crypto causing a glut of used GPU's hitting the market, which in turn would cannibalize sales of new GPU's. Their motivation for LHR appeared to be in avoiding a repeat of summer 2018, where the sudden glut of used Pascal GPU's created massive headwind for the Turing/2000 series as it launched.

I think LHR was a misstep because the price of that insurance policy was to artificially and needlessly devalue their GPU's during a time they know demand will continue to outstrip supply for at least 12+ months. But they have high paid number crunchers and I'm just an idiot on a forum so there's probably some angle(s) I'm not considering.

Ultimately LHR isn't curtailing mining profitability since mining on LHR is at 90-95% of non-LHR due to other proof-of-work coins besides ETH.
 
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Slade

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The LHR cards are a joke, they just look for eth algorithms and nerf them. The other coins seem to be slipping through and getting full hash rates. Just got to pick something with a good ROI and then convert to your crypto of choice. I'd do ravencoin but I've already been doing a ton of eth and focusing on eth gets my payouts quicker. The cash flow just dumps eth every pay out to my wallet, then I exchange on coinbase and move to paypal. From there you can spend on the internet just nicely.
 
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Ready4Dis

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I mean, and the fact that they aren't selling much of their mining hardware is pretty funny too. Why would a miner spend 3-4x as much for a "mining" card that is just a non-LHR normal card? They are literally just trying to get more money from miners. I could understand if the price was slightly higher, or even like 50%.. but 3-4x the price? I mean, that's just greed, of course the ROI isn't going to push miners to buy them anywhere near as quickly as just a normal GPU that does the same thing, but can also function as a graphics card that you can sell when you're done. If they were going to do this with any seriousness, this was not the way.
 

arnemetis

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I mean, and the fact that they aren't selling much of their mining hardware is pretty funny too. Why would a miner spend 3-4x as much for a "mining" card that is just a non-LHR normal card? They are literally just trying to get more money from miners. I could understand if the price was slightly higher, or even like 50%.. but 3-4x the price? I mean, that's just greed, of course the ROI isn't going to push miners to buy them anywhere near as quickly as just a normal GPU that does the same thing, but can also function as a graphics card that you can sell when you're done. If they were going to do this with any seriousness, this was not the way.
Their whole CMP line of 'mining' cards make no sense at all. Especially in light of the FE cards being non-LHR AND being the cheapest cards available. I have no idea what the hell is going on over at nvidia.
 

Axman

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I have no idea what the hell is going on over at nvidia.

OK. I have hinted at this before. Let me hint at it again.

Nvidia isn't telling their partners to make these low-hash cards. And the partners aren't making them, either. There never were any damaged dies being salvaged in this process in any way. There was some new-old stock, but that's it.

Nvidia's marketing department came up with this as a scheme to convince Nvidia fanboys that Nvidia is all about gaming and gaming first. So they forced/paid/charmed their way into getting a few companies to put out a batch of low-hash cards, at fake prices. After that, they could all go back to making regular cards and sell them to miners.

This way, Nvidia fans have proof that these "pure gaming" cards exist, even if they couldn't find one to buy, and that solidifies as proof that Nvidia puts gamers first, even though they and their partners have been selling straight to miners this whole time.
 

sfsuphysics

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I mean, and the fact that they aren't selling much of their mining hardware is pretty funny too. Why would a miner spend 3-4x as much for a "mining" card that is just a non-LHR normal card? They are literally just trying to get more money from miners. I could understand if the price was slightly higher, or even like 50%.. but 3-4x the price? I mean, that's just greed, of course the ROI isn't going to push miners to buy them anywhere near as quickly as just a normal GPU that does the same thing, but can also function as a graphics card that you can sell when you're done. If they were going to do this with any seriousness, this was not the way.
Well funny until you realize that they used the existing "short supply of silicon available" to make cards that no one wants.
 

Endgame

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OK. I have hinted at this before. Let me hint at it again.

Nvidia isn't telling their partners to make these low-hash cards. And the partners aren't making them, either. There never were any damaged dies being salvaged in this process in any way. There was some new-old stock, but that's it.

Nvidia's marketing department came up with this as a scheme to convince Nvidia fanboys that Nvidia is all about gaming and gaming first. So they forced/paid/charmed their way into getting a few companies to put out a batch of low-hash cards, at fake prices. After that, they could all go back to making regular cards and sell them to miners.

This way, Nvidia fans have proof that these "pure gaming" cards exist, even if they couldn't find one to buy, and that solidifies as proof that Nvidia puts gamers first, even though they and their partners have been selling straight to miners this whole time.
The only missing part of this is why keep the prices so low? They should at least double, if not triple the prices on the full feature cards. They will still sell them anyway.
 

Axman

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The only missing part of this is why keep the prices so low? They should at least double, if not triple the prices on the full feature cards. They will still sell them anyway.

It would destroy the illusion. There are a lot of people saying that vendors are selling cards to miners at 150 percent of MSRP. And obviously gamers are willing to spend even more.

But they think that miners are the people who are at fault for those prices. If it turned out that MSRP was meaningless and Nvidia and their partners offered everything for more, Nvidia fans would feel cheated, because they would be no different in Nvidia's eyes than miners.

When the actual truth is that Nvidia and their partners are offering miners prices below market rate, for less than what gamers are willing to spend, because the costs of doing business in bulk are less.

So Nvidia and their partners actually wind up charging gamers more than miners, because if they didn't, Nvidia fans would actually feel like they were pawns in the larger scheme. This way, they can be pawns, while they think they're rooks.

It's gamers that are causing the prices to spike, not the miners. The miners can set their own rates.
 

Lakados

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The only missing part of this is why keep the prices so low? They should at least double, if not triple the prices on the full feature cards. They will still sell them anyway.
If NVIdia did that and AMD didn’t NVidia would have to lower their prices. If AMD did raise their prices as well it’s an open and shut case of price fixing. And don’t think for a second the OEM’s would stand for that it would just be a good way to get sued fast from every one of your down channel partners. They might get away with a 5-10% increase, but anything more than that raises far too many red flags.
 
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