Grad School Math: Which Degrees Are Worth the Debt

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
If you are thinking about an advanced degree to make more money, you should probably read this article. If your job is in the field of meteorology, public relations / advertising or computer engineering, you'll probably want to have a drink before you read the article.

On the low end of the scale, the worst graduate major for salary improvement is meteorology, which only improved wage prospects by 1%. Only marginally better were studio arts (3%), petroleum engineering (7%), oceanography (11%), mass media (11%), advertising/public relations (12%), pharmaceutical sciences (13%), forestry (15%), computer engineering (16%), and miscellaneous education (16%).
Click to expand...
 
Mungojerrie said:
Computer Engineering NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Click to expand...

Well they did mention that Computer Engineering didn't go up very much with an advanced degree because it was already a high earnings job to begin with. They only tracked it by percent increase.
 
... or you could actually go to school for something worthwhile, like physics.

Our tuition is covered and we get a stipend. Free education.
 
spintroniX said:
... or you could actually go to school for something worthwhile, like physics.

Our tuition is covered and we get a stipend. Free education.
Click to expand...

I am hacking away at a physics degree :) What school do you go to?
 
It's misleading to look at just percent increases. As has been said above, if a field is already high-paying, a bump in salary won't translate to as high a percent increase. Also, take social science as an example. There's a high percent increase, but that might just mean there aren't very many good social science jobs unless you have a PhD (and can thus be a professor).
 
Anyone who pays for a graduate degree in a STEM field is doing it wrong.

Thanks INPO and the DOE.
 
So what the article is saying is that you should not choose any of the degrees in their "top list", unless you plan on doing a graduate degree and/or are already stuck in those degrees.

On the other hand, the degrees in their bottom list are some of the best undergraduate degrees. Hell yeah, petro/chem eng. We don't need no stinking medical doctors. We need medical engineers.
 
Read that article yesterday. Seems slightly lopsided as stated above. But oh well, I never even got an undergrad degree since I hate college so much. I'll go back one day.
 
Yeah, I don't think petroleum engineering grad students are worried too much about the bump in salary they'll get over just having a bachelor's.

2nd mistake when pursuing a graduate degree (well, any degree) in a STEM field: doing it for the money.

My M.S. degree was worth about 10% over a bachelor's My employer essentially gave me credit for 1 year of work experience when I started because of my M.S degree.
 
spintroniX said:
... or you could actually go to school for something worthwhile, like physics.

Our tuition is covered and we get a stipend. Free education.
Click to expand...

Same with my mechanical engineering masters. I "worked" 20 hours a week for the school doing stuff I could put on my resume.

For those interested in post-graduate degrees here's what I learned:

Some programs aren't well advertised, this includes grade and test requirements.

At my school there was no easy way of determining who had funding. I just walked around the department looking for teachers who taught classes I liked. Don't be afraid to talk to the "mean" teachers. A lot of them come around when they find out you're going to graduate or are interested in post-grad work.

Exceptions can be made. My GPA wasn't that good but my GRE was and I had two teachers that would take me because they knew me. I started on probation but ended with a good GPA.

I have a friend looking at an MBA. He has a worse GPA, but it could be fixed by repeating classes. And, he found a professor willing to take him in. Once again, sometimes it's who you know.

I really enjoyed the small classes and focused material. The teachers are generally more helpful and are less worried about meeting some abstract schedule or keeping attendance. They know you're there because you're interested.

A B in grad school is a C or D in undergrad. C's would get you on accedemic probation, but most teachers think long and hard about giving out that kind of grade. I was a B- undergrad, but when I started grad school within a semester I found myself driven to get A's. I wasn't always successful, but the attitude within the department really motivated me. If I didn't have an A I'd have a really high B in all my classes, and that's without a curve.

You can do it too!
 
There are TONS of problems with our higher education system here in the US. Right now, education is much the housing bubble. Loans are available to anyone, qualified or not, and it’s artificially driving up the costs. By the time you factor in the total costs of higher education, there’s usually little or no benefit over latter.
 
I didn't pay anything for my MS (Systems engineering - not namby pamby Computer "systems engineering" but actual engineering for development of complex physical systems) and I didn't incur any required length of service so I think I'm doing ok. I also was already making over what they quoted as the median salary for folks with advanced degrees prior to getting my Masters (BS Electrical Engineering).
 
Getting a masters in EE currently while working (one class at a time, mostly paid by my company)
It will end up being about $5000 for me go get my entire masters degree when its all said and done.
I don't expect to really see any sort of a pay bump, but you look around and most people with higher positions in the company all got their masters..... So... I figured it couldn't hurt.
I don't expect doors to open right away, but they may later...
 
This is why I didn't get my masters in computer science, it's not worth it, at least salary-wise. All the jobs I've ever seen only care if you have a BS, above that, it makes no difference. Hell, some places aren't even requiring degrees anymore, they'll take you on experience alone.
 
spintroniX said:
... or you could actually go to school for something worthwhile, like physics.

Our tuition is covered and we get a stipend. Free education.
Click to expand...

It's not exactly free since you're giving up the opportunity cost of getting a job and starting your career.

Covering tuition isn't blanket or degree specific. It's simply based on assistantships which is available to most any degree.

A graduate stipend doesn't come close to matching a real job.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
It's not exactly free since you're giving up the opportunity cost of getting a job and starting your career.

Covering tuition isn't blanket or degree specific. It's simply based on assistantships which is available to most any degree.

A graduate stipend doesn't come close to matching a real job.
Click to expand...

1) Yes, there is the opportunity cost. My point wasn't that it doesn't have any cost at all, merely that in STEM field you don't have to take out debt to finance your education.

2) I can't speak for all fields, because I haven't checked - but I can't think of a single physics graduate program that requires students to pay. They are all covered by assistantships.

3) You're right, the pay is pretty pathetic. I wasn't suggesting you would get rich - just that you don't have to go in debt to further your education, if you pick the right fields.
 
spintroniX said:
1) Yes, there is the opportunity cost. My point wasn't that it doesn't have any cost at all, merely that in STEM field you don't have to take out debt to finance your education.

2) I can't speak for all fields, because I haven't checked - but I can't think of a single physics graduate program that requires students to pay. They are all covered by assistantships.

3) You're right, the pay is pretty pathetic. I wasn't suggesting you would get rich - just that you don't have to go in debt to further your education, if you pick the right fields.
Click to expand...

It varies from program to program. I got a masters in Mechanical Engineering and was lucky enough to land an RA since I knew the professor. A large number of the students in the ME graduate program did not have an assistantship since the program grew too large due to the very fact that a lot of people chose to go to grad school instead of finding a job.

After my masters, I'm now working at a software company... was my masters in ME pertinent? I am getting paid about 13% more than the bachelors here. How long will it take for me to break even vs. getting paid full time for the 2 years that I spent in grad school / possible pay raises I could have gotten in those 2 years? A little while I suppose.

It's rare for a masters to be "not worth it" over the course of your entire career. I feel that graduate programs such as PhD programs take a lot more consideration / investment. While I didn't read the article in detail, I don't think it mentioned any segregation of 1 year masters, 2 year masters, or full fledged PhD / other advanced degrees in their study.
 
OregonLAN said:
There are TONS of problems with our higher education system here in the US. Right now, education is much the housing bubble. Loans are available to anyone, qualified or not, and it’s artificially driving up the costs. By the time you factor in the total costs of higher education, there’s usually little or no benefit over latter.
Click to expand...

QFT. Except for one thing; people can't get rid of student loans with bankruptcy.

That's why it's guaranteed and the bubble will just keep growing until people realize that some majors aren't worth it. Also, the admin salaries at universities are outrageous and continued growing throughout the "recession". There's no recession in the University business. Just raise tuition!
 
spintroniX said:
... or you could actually go to school for something worthwhile, like physics.

Our tuition is covered and we get a stipend. Free education.
Click to expand...

Depends upon the school you go to, I went to a state school and the year I started is when they did away full tuition coverage, however I did get to work as an indentured servant for a tiny pittance :D
 
If the median salary for someone with an advanced degree is only $73,738, why would anyone get a degree just to earn that little pittance? Seems like a waste if the goal is to make money. Now if the goal is to actually learn, then the salary part is not important at all.

Then again, how much can a person actually learn? There are limits and as you age, you lose what you don't use everyday, no matter how much you learned.
 
Intel_Hydralisk said:
It's rare for a masters to be "not worth it" over the course of your entire career.
Click to expand...

I think you know very little about the real world. Most of the higher than average earners do not have a college degree at all. In fact, one of the TLP interns we have asked me why there are so many folks without degrees making huge salaries while most of his friends with degrees are unemployed or working at retail or food delivery jobs and barely able to make ends meet. He actually said it was unfair.

I think what was unfair is someone pulling the wool over their eyes and making them think they are owed a high paying job because they went to college. He never considered the folks making huge salaries actually earned what they make.

It is true the executives where I work have higher degrees, but most of them are born into the positions they live, as in, their families are well connected and the degrees are for convenience only, just to maintain appearence. Most higher degrees in the business world are paid for in the form of 'executive packages' which do not require to the normal college classes to get them. It's more like a freeby for the guys they desire.
 
BBA said:
Then again, how much can a person actually learn? There are limits and as you age, you lose what you don't use everyday, no matter how much you learned.
Click to expand...

What you (can) learn in grad school often goes well beyond the dumbed down general stuff you learn as an undergrad. I for one loved grad school simply because I was fucking done with all those bullshit "well rounded" classes, I took classes I wanted in the subject I was a major in. Strangely enough while I struggled a bit in physics as a Junior/Senior as a grad student things made a lot more sense even though it was a bit more advanced, chalk that up to poor teachers as an undergrad, or the fact a "full load" as a grad student is 3 classes, but it is what it is.
 
People is the most valuable resource in any country, yet most of them and employers do not invest in their own citizens and future employees.
The U.S. first among all: This year's whole budget for education was a paltry $100 per kid per month. That's just insulting.

I hope it won't be long before kids turn to their own free open source-like education. Neither the industrial public education who treat them like shit nor the elitist private system that costs tens of thousands per year seems to be a good solution.
 
BBA said:
I think you know very little about the real world. Most of the higher than average earners do not have a college degree at all.
Click to expand...

Therefore we shouldn't go to college? :rolleyes:

I think the study speaks for itself when taking into account the averages instead of just looking at the Bill Gates in the world.
 
Nuc_E said:
Anyone who pays for a graduate degree in a STEM field is doing it wrong.

Thanks INPO and the DOE.
Click to expand...
It applies to anything within DOD as well. Learn another language like Arabic/Chinese/Turkish or go into IR/security and it's pretty common to end up with the government paying your way through grad school.
 
Learning is all well and good, but strictly from a salary POV: Going to college for just about anything other than STEM, or a couple misc. majors is almost a waste of time.

History, liberal studies, art, languages, philosophy, are NOT salary investments.
 
The moral of this story is to be a crab fisherman on Deadliest Catch. They make like $30K-60K in like a week.
 
sfsuphysics said:
What you (can) learn in grad school often goes well beyond the dumbed down general stuff you learn as an undergrad. I for one loved grad school simply because I was fucking done with all those bullshit "well rounded" classes, I took classes I wanted in the subject I was a major in. Strangely enough while I struggled a bit in physics as a Junior/Senior as a grad student things made a lot more sense even though it was a bit more advanced, chalk that up to poor teachers as an undergrad, or the fact a "full load" as a grad student is 3 classes, but it is what it is.
Click to expand...

I swear, the so-called "well rounded" classes are the biggest waste of time I've ever gone through. Learn about a subject that I absolutely don't give a crap about, and end up with a slightly lower GPA since I just can't perform that well in subjects I don't care about (current GPA is a 3.74, Science GPA is more like a 3.85 last time I checked). Especially pisses me off since the liberal arts majors can get away with taking watered down math and science classes just to fulfill the general education requirements.

I'm premed btw.

L0s7 4 Lyf3 said:
Learning is all well and good, but strictly from a salary POV: Going to college for just about anything other than STEM, or a couple misc. majors is almost a waste of time.

History, liberal studies, art, languages, philosophy, are NOT salary investments.
Click to expand...

Agreed. Oddly enough, the people I know who are majoring in the humanities are the ones going to the ultra expensive schools. They'll never pay off those debts in their life.

If you're independently wealthy and are going to school simply to expand your horizons, by all means go study whatever you want. But if you plan on making a career out of your college education, then humanities are not the way to go..
 
TerraPhantm said:
Agreed. Oddly enough, the people I know who are majoring in the humanities are the ones going to the ultra expensive schools. They'll never pay off those debts in their life.

If you're independently wealthy and are going to school simply to expand your horizons, by all means go study whatever you want. But if you plan on making a career out of your college education, then humanities are not the way to go..
Click to expand...
But going to an Ivy League means you're guaranteed 6 figures and up no matter where you go or what you do!! People will worship the ground you walk on because you're a Harvard Alumn ;) :rolleyes:

Math and science builds just about EVERYTHING in the modern world. Humanities can bugger off with self-help books to get the education they need for their career. Save the money.
 
TerraPhantm said:
I swear, the so-called "well rounded" classes are the biggest waste of time I've ever gone through. Learn about a subject that I absolutely don't give a crap about, and end up with a slightly lower GPA since I just can't perform that well in subjects I don't care about (current GPA is a 3.74, Science GPA is more like a 3.85 last time I checked). Especially pisses me off since the liberal arts majors can get away with taking watered down math and science classes just to fulfill the general education requirements.
Click to expand...

Unless your interests are hyperfocussed, suffering through boring gened reqs can often just be a case of poor selection. I probably put more effort into picking out my gened classes than my major ones (and not just because a large chunk of those were pre-defined), but I ended up enjoying most of them as a result.

Pro tip: Look for 2nd semester sophmore/junior level courses. They're generally far enough up the departmental ladder to avoid massive lecture hell and crappy professors without requiring massive amounts of knowledge in the subject to do well. You'll need to put a bit more effort into them than just filling in bubbles on a scantron sheet; but you'll get most of the interactivity benefits that come with taking mid/upper level courses in your own major.

Double major in Comp Sci and Physics/Astron; Pitt class of 03.
 
I am still debating about doing a grad degree got my BS in EE with a minor in Mandarin and liking my job so far. The hardest thing is I am not sure I could go back to school and work at the same time. The stupid GRE is something I do not want to take as I do poorly on standardized tests.

Grad degree does seem like it is needed for some positions later on. I do not use my minor now, so will wait and use a grad degree for a change of job in the future if I decide to get one. Still not sure if Systems Engineering or Electrical Engineering will be the better choice for a masters degree in?

The article really does not help with anything though.
 
Nuc_E said:
Anyone who pays for a graduate degree in a STEM field is doing it wrong.

Thanks INPO and the DOE.
Click to expand...

I've never heard of this before at my school (South Florida).
Can elaborate on what IMPORTANT and DOE do for you? Thx
 
L0s7 4 Lyf3 said:
But going to an Ivy League means you're guaranteed 6 figures and up no matter where you go or what you do!! People will worship the ground you walk on because you're a Harvard Alumn ;) :rolleyes:

Math and science builds just about EVERYTHING in the modern world. Humanities can bugger off with self-help books to get the education they need for their career. Save the money.
Click to expand...

Another fine, well rounded individual.
 
The people who teach themselves through self help books end up with a Ron Paul-level understanding of economics (very little) and rarely get anywhere beyond 200 level course material. You may not like the areas, but if everyone decided to get a "useful" IT degree, then your salary would drop further than it already is and academics and researchers in those other fields would make more money.

More than that, by not going to school in those areas you're missing out on valuable networking connections that form the pipeline for many jobs. Business school is the greatest example of this. If you really wanted to be pragmatic about your education, you would skip engineering and pre-med and just go to business school.

Obviously most of you haven't done that, probably because you enjoy studying other areas. Which is the exact same reason (most) other people choose their majors, even if it's not as high paying.
 
Not sure what this article is even saying....

What is "pharmaceutical sciences:?????

A Pharm-D degree is, in itself a grad school program....not something you get up and above a pharmacist degree. You can do a 1 or 2 year residency but you are paid about $50K for that so its doesn't "cost" you anything and it through the employer not a school.

You take 2 years of pre-req classes, apply for pharmacy school, and after 4 years you have a doctorate of pharmacy. Tons of jobs and the pay is around $100K working in hospitals and over that if you want to work retail.

I see endless streams of people graduating every year at my work and fresh 24 year old pharmacists (Pharm-Ds) start immediately at $94K a year with zero experience. Thats the industry standard for pay really.
 
Steve said:
If you are thinking about an advanced degree to make more money, you should probably read this article. If your job is in the field of meteorology, public relations / advertising or computer engineering, you'll probably want to have a drink before you read the article.
Click to expand...

If you go to grad school for CE or CS and you're not on a fellowship or an assistantship, then I question why you're going to school. Both of those pay you to get a degree. It may not cover all your living expenses, but they cover tuition, and the monthly stipend will cover books and probably a room in a grad dorm....if you have a fellowship, it probably covers more than that.
 
Jaerb4 said:
The people who teach themselves through self help books end up with a Ron Paul-level understanding of economics (very little) and rarely get anywhere beyond 200 level course material.
Click to expand...

Does course material matter? Of course it does, if you are smart enough to take courses you care about.

I still say that if your goal is to make money, college is not what it takes and is not what will get you there. You have to make it big on your own intellect because college is only a way to spend money to try to get an otherwise ordinary average job working for 'the man'.


Proof...
The average net worth in 2006 of Forbes 400 members without a college degree was $5.96 billion; those with a degree averaged $3.14 billion. Four of the five richest Americans — Bill Gates, casino owner Sheldon Adelson, Oracle’s Larry Ellison, and Microsoft cofounder Paul Allen…– are college dropouts.
Here is just an incomplete list of but a few self made billionaires and millionaires without college degrees:

Steve Jobs, Mary Kay, Halle Berry, Michael Dell, Henry Ford, Andrew Jackson, Rachel Ray, John Rockefeller, Steven Spielberg, Mark Zuckerberg, Richard Branson, Maverick Carter, John Paul Dejoria, Felix Dennis, Barry Diller, Dean Kamen, David Oreck, Ty Warner, Abraham Lincoln, Andrew Carnegiem Ashley Qualls, Benjamin Franklin, Bill Joe McCombs, Bram Cohen, Charles Culpeper, Coco Chanel, David Geffen, David Green, David Neeleman, Dustin Moskovits, Frank Lloyd Wright, Henry J. Kaiser, Jack Taylor, Jake Nickell, James Cameron, Joyce C. Hall, Kevin Rose, Michael Rubin, Richard Schultze, Steve Wozniak, Theodore Waitt, Thomas Edison, Tom Anderson, Vidal Sassoon, Walt Disney, Y.C. Yang.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top