Google’s Chief Futurist: Basic Income Will Spread Worldwide by the 2030s

If America could get over the whole "ahhh socialism!" aspect, we could probably pay for and implement UBI by just killing all the welfare programs. .

The United States is already a mix of capitalism and socialism and has been for a long time.
 
Take a look at some of the modern European countries where socialistic programs work very well. Socialism doesn't necessarily lead to dictatorships.
Are you sure europe is all that free anymore? US for that matter? By the same token, social programs are not the same thing as arbitrarily seizing the means of production.
 
As hard as this is to get for some people, communism and socialism are deeply flawed . They have done much worse than what capitalism has been doing over the same period of time. Look at how things turned out for the countries that chose or fell into either side.

What some don't get is once you leave capitalism behind, things do not get easier or better, but the exact opposite. And, worst of all, most people speaking about communism or socialism have never lived in it to see how deep that fuckin rabbit hole goes. I'd rather chose what manipulates my hard earned dollars than having someone summarily do that for me.
 
I'd rather chose what manipulates my hard earned dollars than having someone summarily do that for me.

Unless you're part of the 0.1%, you're not choosing either way.

What some don't get is that the middle class has been disappearing for the last fifty years, and will continue to do so in the future, probably at an increasingly accelerated rate. The end result of this is either going to be the 0.1% living like pharoahs while the 99.9% barely have enough to eat, or it's going to be guillotines.
 
Nah, even if you are not the .1 %, you still have a shot at a decent life here. Look around the world then talk about not going to have enough to eat.
 
Nah, even if you are not the .1 %, you still have a shot at a decent life here.

I didn't say otherwise, I said you're not choosing what "manipulates your hard earned dollars." With UBI it'll go to poor people. Without UBI it'll go to rich people.

You realize "going to be" doesn't = "this is the way it is now," right?
 
The truth is there are a great many people out there in a position of both wealth and power that would let many many MANY people suffer before they give up money and control to aid and help these people either directly or indirectly. I'm not suggesting these people go out of their way to hurt others. For example If a developer has a choice between building in an area where local laws / state laws force him to make available a certain percentage of his housing project as affordable which many cities do depending on the area then he may develop in a different area / state to avoid this as to not effect his bottom line. There are a lot of people with a lot of money that are just not going to do this. This is one example and I can provide many others as to why there will never be a basic income the world over. If you're poor now with a lot less prospects in life then this is not going to magically change. We are very lucky to be American's. We can decide for ourselves how life will go. Many people have zero options. They wake up poor and hungry with limited healthcare. In fact, most of the world is this way. There will never be a basic income for everyone.
 
no , you do actually have a choice. You misunderstood what I said. In communism they do not give you the option of having anything. There is no debate whether the rich or poor get something, it's only the party way. Literally only the top of the top get to have that debate and choice. There is no rich, everyone is poor. That is the basic state. I'm not in the .01% but i can vote with my wallet. The other 2 alternatives (com/soc) don't give you that option.
 
no , you do actually have a choice. You misunderstood what I said. In communism they do not give you the option of having anything. There is no debate whether the rich or poor get something, it's only the party way. Literally only the top of the top get to have that debate and choice. There is no rich, everyone is poor. That is the basic state. I'm not in the .01% but i can vote with my wallet. The other 2 alternatives (com/soc) don't give you that option.

Your understanding of political and economic systems is deeply flawed. For one, we have never seen a true communist economy, all we have seen is dictatorships under the guise of communism.

Also socialism isn't this shit show you claim it is, plenty of socialist nation's do just fine and enjoy some of the highest levels of happiness in the world. Not every government is incompetent like in North America.

Change is the only constant, and capitalism is dying as the cost of entry into business continues to rise, what will happen if the course is not corrected is corporatism.

All forms of economy and politics are deeply flawed, which is why we as citizens should continue to strive for better in the great social experiment.
 
no , you do actually have a choice. You misunderstood what I said. In communism they do not give you the option of having anything. There is no debate whether the rich or poor get something, it's only the party way. Literally only the top of the top get to have that debate and choice. There is no rich, everyone is poor. That is the basic state. I'm not in the .01% but i can vote with my wallet. The other 2 alternatives (com/soc) don't give you that option.

UBI doesn’t equal communism and you can vote with your wallet but so far that just means voting for corporations and the 1% no matter who you vote for because last I checked as a middle classer I still pay a higher % tax than Mitt Romney or GE, etc.
 
As hard as this is to get for some people, communism and socialism are deeply flawed . They have done much worse than what capitalism has been doing over the same period of time. Look at how things turned out for the countries that chose or fell into either side.

What some don't get is once you leave capitalism behind, things do not get easier or better, but the exact opposite. And, worst of all, most people speaking about communism or socialism have never lived in it to see how deep that fuckin rabbit hole goes. I'd rather chose what manipulates my hard earned dollars than having someone summarily do that for me.
I don't think America would truly be socialist for a while. By then I hope to have a android nurse that'll make me yell, HELLO NURSE!

I believe America is heading towards a system that I call gamificationism. It's like capitalism but with fake money. But like in games, we somehow give value to fake money, and so people will still strive to acquire it. We'll never say it's fake money, but that's what it really is. Real money will be used to trade with other countries. Think of the money you have today which isn't backed by gold. Has about as much value as cryptocurrency.

Also with gamificationism, people do get a monthly allowance but it's based on your contribution to society. The more you contribute, the more you get. If you own a business, you get more. The exception are people who sell goods directly. Taxes will exist in some fashion to make sure this currency doesn't inflate out of control. Think like in video games where some mechanics are used as a money dump for those who got far too much gold than they should.

which is?
Democratic Socialism. Ah oh, there's that word again. SOCIALISM! That's like communism, but disguised as socialism. Like it or not, that's the direction we'll end up. Or, OR, we could create the purge. Capitalism survives and you get to kill those free loading poor people once a year. No UBI for those lazy bastards. Only thing they'll get is lead, or maybe a baseball bat to the head. But I'm against death of any kind so... socialism isn't sounding bad.

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How the fuck can I become a "Chief Futurist?"
You make hundreds of predictions that are 86% correct. Tell me oh wise rgMekanic, what do thee see into the future? BTW Ray Kurzweil thinks we'll cure aging probably about the same time as UBI. In fact he believes we'll end all diseases by then. What you think?
 
Ugh, way to smear it all over the place there Aireoth. I am aware of what communism, socialism and capitalism all are. I've lived in all 3 (modern day version of them), and can distinguish them better than you can theorize about them. In any case, neither one of them has been around longer than the others. In fact , pure ideological concepts of each have existed since the early tribal society under one form or another.
Current modern versions however didn't start taking shape until the early 19th century. More importantly, all three parallel each other, and can be directly compared. Based on results alone, this should be an easy decision. Yet people still hold to their biases and ill informed notions. I'm no fanboy of capitalism, but also not blind to the disasters the others caused.

I do agree on one thing, change is both inevitable and necessary.

L.T., UBI fails everywhere because it has no way to sustain its core processes. It is similar to both communism and socialism, although on a much smaller scale. Yea, I feel the same about middle class taxes and over burdened obligations. Would you rather be poor as dirt on welfare then? If not, keep plugging away, that's my plan for now.
 
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Ugh, way to smear it all over the place there Aireoth. I am aware of what communism, socialism and capitalism all are. I've lived in all 3 (modern day version of them), and can distinguish them better than you can theorize about them. In any case, neither one of them has been around longer than the others. In fact , pure ideological concepts of each have existed since the early tribal society under one form or another.
Current modern versions however didn't start taking shape until the early 19th century. More importantly, all three parallel each other, and can be directly compared. Based on results alone, this should be an easy decision. Yet people still hold to their biases and ill informed notions. I'm no fanboy of capitalism, but also not blind to the disasters the others caused.

I do agree on one thing, change is both inevitable and necessary.

L.T., UBI fails everywhere because it has no way to sustain its core processes. It is similar to both communism and socialism, although on a much smaller scale. Yea, I feel the same about middle class taxes and over burdened obligations. Would you rather be poor as dirt on welfare then? If not, keep plugging away, that's my plan for now.
May I ask where did you live, and for how long under communism and socialism?
 
We are already dependent on our government, unless you think we live in a society where we somehow agree not to be assholes to each other and follow these unspoken rules.


The slaves are not humans but the robots. This is no different than your washing machine taking jobs away from people who toiled all day to wash their cloths. The bible is not always a source of wisdom, not when it can't anticipate AI and robotics. Also my quote is better than yours.

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Most people don't have jobs that make a difference in the world. Most just work at retail where they do a repetitive task. They're not contributing anything other than wealth to the 1%. But with UBI we could change peoples lives, where they can now work on projects that they left behind cause they didn't have time. Even if only 1% of people contribute something to society like working on open source projects, then that's better than working at retail. This also means less scammers, as people no longer need to scam to survive. No need to produce products that have planned obsolescence. People can ask for better pay as they're no longer constrained to get any job to survive.


UBI is still capitalist. In fact, it keeps capitalism alive.

Whether or not it is robots doing the work, it still allows many people to simply stop working while others carry them. That's not right. That's effectively theft. If, somehow, the world becomes a place where no human is doing work and all the work is done by robots and AI, then and only then would it be right to have UBI, since everyone would actually be equal in their workload.
 
May I ask where did you live, and for how long under communism and socialism?

Sure, I grew up in the former soviet block, eastern Europe. Moved here with my family later on. I was 17 when I came here, a bit after the fall of the iron curtain.
 
Whether or not it is robots doing the work, it still allows many people to simply stop working while others carry them. That's not right. That's effectively theft. If, somehow, the world becomes a place where no human is doing work and all the work is done by robots and AI, then and only then would it be right to have UBI, since everyone would actually be equal in their workload.
It won't work out like that. In a few years the self driving cars will be rolled out by companies and will displace jobs for many people. UPS, FedEx, Postal service, taxi's, delivery trucks, and it goes on and on. We'll probably have mandated mail boxes that allow a robot to open it and insert mail like we have with garbage trucks. The delivery vehicles will alert you when it's at your home and text you a code for you to enter to get your package.

Probably in a few years many office white collar jobs will be replaced as well. My sister works for a company who supplies resources to hospitals and she was shocked when the company is exploring vending machines that dispense medicine. Thus totally replacing pharmacy jobs.

https://cvshealth.com/newsroom/pres...-box-introduction-health-and-wellness-vending

But it won't likely put all the burden on a select few people to do the work for society. Most likely we'll reduce the work day and the work week long before we let people continue to work 9-5 for 5 days a week while Bob sits at home all day playing video games and gets paid. Americans already work more hours a week than Europeans, so it makes sense that we distribute the labor more evenly this way. So maybe a 30 hour work week will be the norm, and then maybe 25. Eventually it won't be about how many hours you put in, but how productive you were.

If you consider that we'll have the technology to live longer and stay healthier, maybe even reverse aging, then you have a financial catastrophe on your hands. May not happen when Ray Kurzweil says it will, but it will eventually. By the year 2030, you might be physically in your 30's while working a 25 hour work week, assuming you even have a work week.

 
If you think UBI is a good idea, other people's ignorance is the last thing you should be worrying about.
Absolutely worthless comment, without offering any shred of an argument. If you can't even be bothered to demonstrate how does ubi equal communism I have to conclude that your only goal is trolling, and not meaningful conversation.
 
Absolutely worthless comment, without offering any shred of an argument. If you can't even be bothered to demonstrate how does ubi equal communism I have to conclude that your only goal is trolling, and not meaningful conversation.

You don't want to have a conversation, you want to be right. I do appreciate the old "I hate the fact that I'm wrong so I'll call people trolls" line though, 6/10 for effort.
 
Sure, I grew up in the former soviet block, eastern Europe. Moved here with my family later on. I was 17 when I came here, a bit after the fall of the iron curtain.
The fall of the iron curtain while a good thing on an ideological level, what happened after was far from ideal. The same people who were in power during the communist era remained in power still, or close enough to the cookie jar. Records were sealed, so nobody knew who was a collaborator or outright informer for the party. State owned assets were sold off for scraps to cronies. These people became extremely rich by literally robbing the country blind. The cronyism that went on (and still continues to go on) was appalling. One huge and successful retail company where both my parents had worked at the time was run into the ground in the course of 3-4 years. The people in power had no interest in keeping the business intact, instead they made decisions like buying millions worth of unsellable, defective merchandise off their cronies to line their pockets. So in the case of my country regular people lived the move from socialism as a negative both financially and politically. Except of course the people who were dirty enough to bribe the state officials so they could get a piece of the pie. We, I mean my father, tried to purchase the lease for the retail store he managed under the company that was being destroyed. When the first auction was held the asking price was unrealistically high and no bids were made at all. So a date was set for a second auction. Which never happened because someone waltzed in to the management put down a large enough envelope and he had the lease with no questions asked. That's how the "privatization" of state owned assets went across the board.
It was not an experience where we exhaled: Oh we're finally free! It was almost the opposite. During the eighties the communist rule became much relaxed, so in our daily lives the fall of the curtain had no immediate effect. In fact living conditions started to deteriorate for the middle class after that. Before 1990 we regularly had holidays abroad. After that we could no longer afford that luxury. For my first full time job in 1997 my salary was the equivalent of $85 /month. That's about $130 adjusted for inflation.

So that is my experience with the fall of the iron curtain as someone who still lives in the former soviet block.



No, I'm not arguing that communism is better than capitalism, or even good at all. I'm arguing that the system we have now is not an utopia, it is not the best that can be, and it needs to evolve. But whenever someone proposes any change to the current economic system they're immediately labelled as communist and that's the end of the conversation as far as they're concerned. This is stupid, and leads nowhere.
 
You don't want to have a conversation, you want to be right. I do appreciate the old "I hate the fact that I'm wrong so I'll call people trolls" line though, 6/10 for effort.
Yes, that's why I'm writing walls of text and offering my honest experiences because I don't want a conversation. You just proclaim I'm wrong without any explanation, that tells me nothing. I might be wrong on many things, but what you're doing won't change my mind.

I will call people trolls who offer no argument just assert something and then move on. Because it is pointless.
 
Except in the US..This thread is evidence that the majority of the US would rather see the majority of its citizens on the street starving before allowing something like this. That said I don't believe UBI is a perfect answer or even "the" answer, but it is a conversation we need to be having as adults and not knee jerk childish assholes. There are major changes that are coming to our economy and we need to have a plan to deal with it in a positive manner. Fuck everyone just to spite the few that will be deadbeats, isn't a positive plan..or even really a plan.
 
Except in the US..This thread is evidence that the majority of the US would rather see the majority of its citizens on the street starving before allowing something like this. That said I don't believe UBI is a perfect answer or even "the" answer, but it is a conversation we need to be having as adults and not knee jerk childish assholes. There are major changes that are coming to our economy and we need to have a plan to deal with it in a positive manner. Fuck everyone just to spite the few that will be deadbeats, isn't a positive plan..or even really a plan.

This is typical left-wing, binary, rhetoric. It assumes immorality on the part of those who oppose UBI. (UBI, and every other form of socialism, is just a form of slavery imposed on those who are not in the leadership cabal.) So, before FDR/LBJ imposed a New Deal and the New Society, I did not see "the majority of its citizens in the street starving". In fact, there are plenty of studies showing the imposition of FDR/LBJ socialistic programs have led to much greater suffering. (Look at the destruction of black families and LBJ's history of extreme racist prejudice against blacks. There are plenty of quotes from LBJ supporting this as a planned outcome of his policies.)

So, if someone disagrees with UBI/Socialism, the result will be widespread death? (Your words.)

Again, this is typical left-wing "sophistry".

Instead of forcing everyone to comply with the vision of UBI (if I don't pay my taxes into it, I go to jail), and ignoring the 18 enumerated powers of the Federal Government which are explicitly written into The Constitution, why not get your locality to offer UBI? Start with your own household. Show, by example, how it works. Then, get your neighbors to join. As it succeeds, your entire neighborhood will voluntarily give into this program. Next, your town. Eventually, you can get your county and your state to pass legislation to begin a UBI program.

Unless your vision of morality means that I must be bent to your will and coerced into joining?

See, that's the problem with socialism. It's not voluntary. And it never works.

Oh, and it is unconstitutional, if that matters to anyone anymore.
 
This is typical left-wing, binary, rhetoric. It assumes immorality on the part of those who oppose UBI. (UBI, and every other form of socialism, is just a form of slavery imposed on those who are not in the leadership cabal.) So, before FDR/LBJ imposed a New Deal and the New Society, I did not see "the majority of its citizens in the street starving". In fact, there are plenty of studies showing the imposition of FDR/LBJ socialistic programs have led to much greater suffering. (Look at the destruction of black families and LBJ's history of extreme racist prejudice against blacks. There are plenty of quotes from LBJ supporting this as a planned outcome of his policies.)
To be fair the new deal introduced minimum wage and social security. Things we still use today.
So, if someone disagrees with UBI/Socialism, the result will be widespread death? (Your words.)

Again, this is typical left-wing "sophistry".
If we continue with our current method of capitalism, it'll likely result in riots and death. What exactly do you think will happen? Also what's with you and "left-wing" hatred?
Instead of forcing everyone to comply with the vision of UBI (if I don't pay my taxes into it, I go to jail), and ignoring the 18 enumerated powers of the Federal Government which are explicitly written into The Constitution, why not get your locality to offer UBI? Start with your own household. Show, by example, how it works. Then, get your neighbors to join. As it succeeds, your entire neighborhood will voluntarily give into this program. Next, your town. Eventually, you can get your county and your state to pass legislation to begin a UBI program.
If we did this than all the wealthy will bunch together and then the poor will follow them. Since UBI is now localized and not national.
Unless your vision of morality means that I must be bent to your will and coerced into joining?

See, that's the problem with socialism. It's not voluntary. And it never works.

Oh, and it is unconstitutional, if that matters to anyone anymore.
UBI isn't socialism, it's capitalism with a change.

An update: Finland was one of the countries trying UBI. They have now stopped that experiment. It was too expensive and unemployment increased. LOL. Who would've thought?
They're ending a pilot program, so it wasn't expected to run forever. Now they're exploring universal credit system, which is like UBI but with limitations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years
 
This is typical left-wing, binary, rhetoric. It assumes immorality on the part of those who oppose UBI. (UBI, and every other form of socialism, is just a form of slavery imposed on those who are not in the leadership cabal.) So, before FDR/LBJ imposed a New Deal and the New Society, I did not see "the majority of its citizens in the street starving". In fact, there are plenty of studies showing the imposition of FDR/LBJ socialistic programs have led to much greater suffering. (Look at the destruction of black families and LBJ's history of extreme racist prejudice against blacks. There are plenty of quotes from LBJ supporting this as a planned outcome of his policies.)

So, if someone disagrees with UBI/Socialism, the result will be widespread death? (Your words.)

Again, this is typical left-wing "sophistry".

Instead of forcing everyone to comply with the vision of UBI (if I don't pay my taxes into it, I go to jail), and ignoring the 18 enumerated powers of the Federal Government which are explicitly written into The Constitution, why not get your locality to offer UBI? Start with your own household. Show, by example, how it works. Then, get your neighbors to join. As it succeeds, your entire neighborhood will voluntarily give into this program. Next, your town. Eventually, you can get your county and your state to pass legislation to begin a UBI program.

Unless your vision of morality means that I must be bent to your will and coerced into joining?

See, that's the problem with socialism. It's not voluntary. And it never works.

Oh, and it is unconstitutional, if that matters to anyone anymore.

And this is the kind of knee jerk assholism I was talking about. Honestly I'm just not going to bother refuting anything you said because you didn't actually read what I wrote. I am neither left wing, liberal or interested in socialism. I simply recognize that there are major changes coming and we need to talk about solutions. The current status quo isn't going to be a solution. Is UBI the solution? I doubt it, but that doesn't mean it isn't something we don't need to have a conversation about to discuss the pro's, con's and see if there are any ideas entwined with it that could push us in the right direction.

Once again, Adult conversation is not "fuck everyone else because I'm a selfish entitled prick".
 
And this is the kind of knee jerk assholism I was talking about. Honestly I'm just not going to bother refuting anything you said because you didn't actually read what I wrote. I am neither left wing, liberal or interested in socialism. I simply recognize that there are major changes coming and we need to talk about solutions. The current status quo isn't going to be a solution. Is UBI the solution? I doubt it, but that doesn't mean it isn't something we don't need to have a conversation about to discuss the pro's, con's and see if there are any ideas entwined with it that could push us in the right direction.

Once again, Adult conversation is not "fuck everyone else because I'm a selfish entitled prick".

Umm, knee-jerk assholism? LOL.

You stated, "This thread is evidence that the majority of the US would rather see the majority of its citizens on the street starving before allowing something like this." I would not allow something like this. Ergo, you think I would rather see the majority of US citizens on the street starving. So, you went full hyperbole...unless you really believe this?
 
It won't work out like that. In a few years the self driving cars will be rolled out by companies and will displace jobs for many people. UPS, FedEx, Postal service, taxi's, delivery trucks, and it goes on and on. We'll probably have mandated mail boxes that allow a robot to open it and insert mail like we have with garbage trucks. The delivery vehicles will alert you when it's at your home and text you a code for you to enter to get your package.

Probably in a few years many office white collar jobs will be replaced as well. My sister works for a company who supplies resources to hospitals and she was shocked when the company is exploring vending machines that dispense medicine. Thus totally replacing pharmacy jobs.

https://cvshealth.com/newsroom/pres...-box-introduction-health-and-wellness-vending

But it won't likely put all the burden on a select few people to do the work for society. Most likely we'll reduce the work day and the work week long before we let people continue to work 9-5 for 5 days a week while Bob sits at home all day playing video games and gets paid. Americans already work more hours a week than Europeans, so it makes sense that we distribute the labor more evenly this way. So maybe a 30 hour work week will be the norm, and then maybe 25. Eventually it won't be about how many hours you put in, but how productive you were.

If you consider that we'll have the technology to live longer and stay healthier, maybe even reverse aging, then you have a financial catastrophe on your hands. May not happen when Ray Kurzweil says it will, but it will eventually. By the year 2030, you might be physically in your 30's while working a 25 hour work week, assuming you even have a work week.



However, the people 'displaced' from those jobs taken by automation COULD work at other things in order to pull their own weight, instead of leaning on others to drag them along. There ARE jobs in this country that need filling that pay well, won't be replaced with automation any time soon, and don't require too difficult of a skill: welding, home construction, internal office construction, heavy equipment operators, bridge construction, etc. Plus, there are many skills that require education but not particularly difficult skills to master, such as web page development and some software development (Creative Labs is a perfect example of people with low skill level in software development getting jobs). There are jobs that need to get done, and people who CAN do them, if they put a little effort in and at least TRY. However, our welfare government system allows them to not work and not try and still get enough to live on, and then they complain about "the man" keeping them in poverty. In truth, it is the welfare system that is keeping them in poverty. UBI simply doesn't work.

Heck, even Finland's experiment with UBI has failed spectacularly, in case you missed it in the news. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nd-universal-basic-income-ubi-social-security
 
To be fair the new deal introduced minimum wage and social security. Things we still use today.

If we continue with our current method of capitalism, it'll likely result in riots and death. What exactly do you think will happen? Also what's with you and "left-wing" hatred?

If we did this than all the wealthy will bunch together and then the poor will follow them. Since UBI is now localized and not national.

UBI isn't socialism, it's capitalism with a change.


They're ending a pilot program, so it wasn't expected to run forever. Now they're exploring universal credit system, which is like UBI but with limitations.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/23/finland-to-end-basic-income-trial-after-two-years

If we continue with our current method of capitalism, it'll likely result in riots and death. :: What??? So, another left-wing rhetorical device: change your way or suffer anger/revolution/mob. I don't see it.

UBI isn't socialism, it's capitalism with a change. :: Um, no. UBI is taking wealth, by force or the threat of force, from one group and transferring it to another. (See above, the threat of violence.) This is the root of socialism.


As to left-wing hatred, nah, I don't hate the misinformed. I do, however, refuse to be silent anymore. In counterpoint to the quotes I pulled above, when have you heard of conservatives threatening to riot?


There is a constant bilateral nature to all left-wing propaganda. If this, else that. Usually the "else that" is a nihilistic statement of some variety.
 
So the US cannot even figure out how to provide healthcare to its citizens, but... in the future will have a working system to provide universal wages?

Also, the problem with algorithms is that they have the creator's bias built in.
 
Well it's time to throw in my two cents:

I don't believe in UBI because it removes incentivizing for people to get jobs. It's the same issue that exist with welfare. If you get too many benefits, there's little incentive for a person to get a job, pay for auto insurance, a car, (possibly daycare) to make less money overall.

HOWEVER there is a growing problem in the USA with stagflation and the middle class. (You'll see how automation ties in further down.) While some of it is a culture change (like depending on credit more), the middle class is finding it harder and harder to survive. The reason is there is a shift in the types of jobs available for middle class incomes. Most of the middle class in the 1950's came from the post WW II industrial sector. There were a lot of manufacturing jobs the provided for a basic but comfortable income. As we outsourced more, those jobs were lost. While the cost of those goods have dropped due to outsourcing (clothing/computers/tv/refrigerators/cars/electronics/etc...) it has lowered the ability of people to purchase those goods until it reaches a tipping point.

For example:
Lets say I'm Joe Blow Mfg Union and I make widgets that supply 100% of USA. We pay $35/hour.
Joe Blow Mfg Union has 1,000,000 members or roughly .25% of the USA population
The parent company outsources and all the Joe Blows now make $15.00 working fast food because their skills are no longer needed.
99.75% of the USA benefits because those widgets now cost 1/2 as much. Stock owners are happy because the P:E margin is bigger on the stocks
However Joe Blow no longer has any decent income and can't afford to purchase a comfortable middle class life.

There becomes an interesting linear equation feed back loop (convolution Kernel) that says there is a tipping point where the economy can no longer support itself due to outsourcing. Many models suggest we may have passed that point.

The US, like Japan has shifted from a mfg economy to a service one. The service sector doesn't pay as well as most of that growth has come from the low paying food industry. The food industry is starting to show cracks as food chains are straining for available dollars with each other. Many corporate CEO's of food service economies are claiming there's going to be significant downfall sometime soon of several chains due to competition. Other stalwarts that closed down old models of shopping (Walmart / Circuit City closed out MOM and POP shops) are now facing extinction themselves as places like Amazon offer more for less from the convenience of your home. Those mega warehouses don't replace the store staff salaries and the are often highly automated.

The irony of all this is the transformation of outsourcing accelerated under the Carter Administration back in the 1970's. The idea was for every dollar we surrender to china, we get $3.00 in goods back. So it was good for us. The general plan was to replace those jobs with high education/tech ones. So policies were put into place to encourage this. That assumption of job shift the fallacy in the plan. Quite frankly, not everyone is built to be a rocket scientist, like me, or a surgeon. Blue collar is a necessity.

Now I'm not in support of Trumps steel tariff or opposition to it. But the company I work for was in a panic about a month back because we use USA steel. In fact we use a LOT of USA steel. So the fact is our cost went up considerably. So the company is already sending out "warning signals" there will be a limited pay raise for us (last year was 2%) But at the same time, I realize that I'm helping keep steel workers here in the United States employed. So I know while the company is suffering, we are also helping the middle class.

So what we have is a growing and untenable situation. Automation is just an extension of outsourcing in terms of loss of middle class jobs. In this case the job is lost to a machine.

The only way to reverse this is to bring back manufacturing to the USA. I don't believe every person who loses a blue collar job is built for upper white collar work. It's not snobbery. I believe they have vital importance. As for automation, well Bill Gates might have the right idea: Tax robots that replace human workers so the company pays a similar amount for the robot worker as the human one.
 
Why make people do menial jobs, that a machine can do more efficiently and better?
If you mean have people work for their UBI, well, it's to foster a work ethic. If you give people money forever while not working, all they will do is have sex and make more unemployed workers.

reduced working hours for the same income.
Goes against all that the 1% believes in, in America, anyway. Their goal is to get as much work out of someone as possible, and then get them out of the company once they're physically used up. In America, profits are the most important thing.

And people will still want to work, at least the people who are worth a damn.
Not if you remove the incentive to work. Once all jobs are just minimum wage, or getting UBI, lots will just give up and take the UBI. Not everyone is able to do higher jobs. Our education system is designed to give only enough knowledge to be a brainless employee. They don't want you to know many things. It's not that the information isn't available, just that they don't actively push it in most areas.

because now many people hold down jobs they absolutely hate, because they need a job to have a living.
So who's going to do the jobs that people hate? Rich people often enjoy being the boss of a servant. Ordering a robot around won't give them the satisfaction they want.

As hard as this is to get for some people, communism and socialism are deeply flawed
Please name any governments which were actually communist or socialist. AFAIK, there have been none. They were communist or socialist in name only. They were dictatorships that used the communist or socialist moniker to fool the people that lived in them, in order to give them the illusion that their dictator actually had their interests at heart.

However, the people 'displaced' from those jobs taken by automation COULD work at other things in order to pull their own weight, instead of leaning on others to drag them along. There ARE jobs in this country that need filling that pay well, won't be replaced with automation any time soon, and don't require too difficult of a skill: welding, home construction, internal office construction, heavy equipment operators, bridge construction, etc. Plus, there are many skills that require education but not particularly difficult skills to master, such as web page development and some software development (Creative Labs is a perfect example of people with low skill level in software development getting jobs). There are jobs that need to get done, and people who CAN do them, if they put a little effort in and at least TRY.
It seems that many simply don't want work. They want 'a job', where they get paid to show up, and get a paycheck. NOT work. There's a very real difference. Right now, we're seeing nearly an entire generation who are unwilling to do entry level or menial work. They feel that it's beneath them. This is not limited to millennials, my brother in law was one of these useless bastards, too, and he's a boomer.

As a teen in the 70's, I saw every snowstorm as a bonanza; I made hundreds of dollars shoveling people's sidewalks, driveways, and shoveling their cars out of the drifts. Today when it snows, it's the adults doing that, while the teens sit inside and play xbox. In the 20 years now that I've lived where I do, not once has anyone come around looking to work when it snowed. Not once. And I'm in a working class neighborhood. They've grown up watching TV as if it's real life. I continually have to educate people here who really believe that every baby boomer could just walk into any company and be handed a good paying job with some guaranteed ladder of promotion; didn't happen. Never has. But the self entitled folks use that myth as an excuse to sit on their asses and live off their families instead of working.



While some of it is a culture change (like depending on credit more), the middle class is finding it harder and harder to survive. The reason is there is a shift in the types of jobs available for middle class incomes.
It's also due to people not knowing how to stop spending so much of their money on crap, and I believe that part of that problem is fostered by our government that is now just something that only exists to provide for the corporate needs, not the needs of the public. As a kid, we never went out to eat. EVerything we had, was the cheapest or almost cheapest item available. Today, everyone has an inflated self esteem, so they waste tons of their income on things that they shouldn't be buying. Easiest example? No one wants to brown bag their lunch anymore. No one. They all buy their food from a vendor, essentially paying many times what they should be spending on nutrition, all because they're lazy.


it has lowered the ability of people to purchase those goods until it reaches a tipping point.
We're on a path towards corporate ownership of it's workers. As someone else mentioned, the vast majority of the population will become minimum wage workers, who will entirely depend upon their company to provide basic living quarters, basic food, and basic everything else. Everything will be purchased from the company store (or the equivilent, the sister corporation that provides that particular need in order to skirt monopoly laws).

There becomes an interesting linear equation feed back loop (convolution Kernel) that says there is a tipping point where the economy can no longer support itself due to outsourcing. Many models suggest we may have passed that point.
at which point, the corporation will abandon the country, and simply move to another. The citizens of that country, of course, will be screwed.

The only way to reverse this is to bring back manufacturing to the USA. I don't believe every person who loses a blue collar job is built for upper white collar work. It's not snobbery. I believe they have vital importance.
As we have fewer employees, we'll have fewer white collar middle managers as well. We already see those people displaced out of the workforce, winding up as Walmart greeters.
As for automation, well Bill Gates might have the right idea: Tax robots that replace human workers so the company pays a similar amount for the robot worker as the human one.
As we just saw, corporations won't pay the taxes. The people will get taxed to death. The rich will just get richer, getting legislation passed to favor themselves, because they have the money go buy the legislators that will pass the laws that they want. They keep the populace dumb, so they don't realize that they're being fed a lie about their futures. I'm perpetually amazed that the rust belt workers really don't understand that the owners of the companies they worked for, are the ones who took their jobs away. These people are cutting their own throats by supporting the very folks who screwed them over. All because they really want to believe that they'll all eventually be rich someday, so they support legislation to favor the ones who are already rich.

IMO, so much of our society's ills come from deceit. More and more, lying and deception have been becoming the standard operating procedure for those at the top. It was bad enough when during the industrial age of the late 19th and early 20th century, corporate owners told workers that it was 'my way or the highway'; but when the workers unionized, the corporate elite developed ways to get around that the next time around, and it just keeps getting worse for the average person. When hired, the employers often lie to your face about benefits, salary, potential for advancement, etc.. Contracts are many pages long, written in legalese to confuse as much as possible to leave 'wiggle room' to get away with further deceit. EULA's are intentionally written in 0.2 point type and many pages long as well, all to discourage anyone from actually reading them as well. Our government representitives work hard to get rid of worker and consumer legal protections, as seen with the behind closed doors attempt in January 2017, and the continued efforts by the current administration to eliminate the consumer protection bureau. The only people who can benefit from this, are corporations, charlatans and con men. And, of course, the most dangerous thing, is that our current leader has made the practice of lying into the norm. How that will affect the future citizens of this country we can only guess, but I guess an entire population of people who continuously lie isn't going to be a good thing.
 
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Quite frankly, not everyone is built to be a rocket scientist, like me

lol

But at the same time, I realize that I'm helping keep steel workers here in the United States employed. So I know while the company is suffering, we are also helping the middle class.

Helping part of the middle class (steel workers) while hurting part of the middle class (manufacturing).

The only way to reverse this is to bring back manufacturing to the USA. I don't believe every person who loses a blue collar job is built for upper white collar work. It's not snobbery. I believe they have vital importance. .

Bringing back one of the most easily automated categories of jobs is not the solution to future jobs being lost to automation.

As for automation, well Bill Gates might have the right idea: Tax robots that replace human workers so the company pays a similar amount for the robot worker as the human one

And then you do what with that money, seeing as how you're against UBI?
 
All the people saying "UBI doesn't" work and "socialism/communism didn't work" need to get their heads out of their bottoms and figure out that we're talking about the future here. Probably not 2030 IMO, but do the math where there's ever increasing production and an ever declining (or even just stagnant) middle class and take it out to a logical conclusion.
 
However, the people 'displaced' from those jobs taken by automation COULD work at other things in order to pull their own weight, instead of leaning on others to drag them along. There ARE jobs in this country that need filling that pay well, won't be replaced with automation any time soon, and don't require too difficult of a skill: welding, home construction, internal office construction, heavy equipment operators, bridge construction, etc. Plus, there are many skills that require education but not particularly difficult skills to master, such as web page development and some software development (Creative Labs is a perfect example of people with low skill level in software development getting jobs). There are jobs that need to get done, and people who CAN do them, if they put a little effort in and at least TRY. However, our welfare government system allows them to not work and not try and still get enough to live on, and then they complain about "the man" keeping them in poverty. In truth, it is the welfare system that is keeping them in poverty. UBI simply doesn't work.
That's the faith people have in our current capitalism, in that the free market will adjust and fix things. The thing is, no matter where I look I just don't see enough new jobs to displace the ones we're about to lose. Self driving cars and AI alone is enough to cause a huge recession that would rival the great depression. What new industry could create jobs that needs humans?
Heck, even Finland's experiment with UBI has failed spectacularly, in case you missed it in the news. https://www.theguardian.com/comment...nd-universal-basic-income-ubi-social-security
I think I posted that link a post or two of mine. And no, it isn't a failure it was in trial. Already said they're now exploring a new welfare system.

If we continue with our current method of capitalism, it'll likely result in riots and death. :: What??? So, another left-wing rhetorical device: change your way or suffer anger/revolution/mob. I don't see it.
Again with the left-wing none sense. I choose not to identify as anything, cause there's a lot of baggage that comes with being left or right. It really undermines the issue when we focus on these binary systems.

Anyway, yes riot, as in what do you expect a lot of starving and homeless people to do?
UBI isn't socialism, it's capitalism with a change. :: Um, no. UBI is taking wealth, by force or the threat of force, from one group and transferring it to another. (See above, the threat of violence.) This is the root of socialism.
If we don't, that money won't be worth anything anymore. Remember money is no longer tied to something finite like gold, so the value of money fluctuates up and down. If America was in a recession and you wanted to go to Europe, who btw would also be in a recession, then your money is still useless. The dollar isn't a bank note as much as it's monopoly money. If you think otherwise then go to the bank and ask for your gold. You can't? That's cause your monies value it tied to a nations GDP.

You may not like it, but UBI keeps the value of the dollar high. Without UBI nobody could buy goods. No goods then why bother to produce? Suddenly you have a collapsing economy.
As to left-wing hatred, nah, I don't hate the misinformed. I do, however, refuse to be silent anymore. In counterpoint to the quotes I pulled above, when have you heard of conservatives threatening to riot?
You haven't really given any counterpoint. You basically regurgitate left-wing as your point. Tell you what, I'll give you a question I'd like you to answer. What is your solution to this AI/automation problem? What to do when we're in a situation when the Bell Riots becomes the real thing? Please no faith in the free market none sense, cause that's not a contingency.


 
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