Google Vows to Appeal $5 Billion Fine from EU Over Bundled Android Services

Discussion in 'HardForum Tech News' started by cageymaru, Jul 18, 2018.

  1. kju1

    kju1 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,032
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    One can always rely on the EU to pass a new series of taxes off as fines...
     
  2. Grimlaking

    Grimlaking 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,792
    Joined:
    May 9, 2006
    I call BS here. Amazon has their own store ecosystem and I am sure they wanted to keep that. I think it was users that wanted the google app store.
     
  3. PaulP

    PaulP Gawd

    Messages:
    776
    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2016
    I'm betting that the EU never sees that money.
     
  4. cageymaru

    cageymaru [H]ard as it Gets

    Messages:
    19,730
    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2003
    You're probably right that it was customers that wanted the Google Play store on the Amazon devices. So when the phone manufacturers went to add the Google Play store, Google denied them according to the spokesperson. Nobody wants to sell a phone without access to the biggest app store.
     
  5. PantherBlitz

    PantherBlitz Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    421
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2011
    How long before Google finds a way to make the Play Store hard-wired into Chrome, searchable only with their engine?
     
  6. The Mad Atheist

    The Mad Atheist Gawd

    Messages:
    915
    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2018
    Why settle for two, lets go for three?
    Go, Og, Le
    :p
    Anyway, should go after phone makers that lock the bootloader so people can't install a custom ROM.
     
  7. Makaveli@BETA

    Makaveli@BETA 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,303
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    I think it time that the EU set a rule that a license is required to use a PC

    They are already a nanny state one more rule won't hurt.
     
  8. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

    Messages:
    10,956
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    This makes no sense.
     
    Makaveli@BETA likes this.
  9. kju1

    kju1 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,032
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    I am hoping they never see that money.
     
  10. Makaveli@BETA

    Makaveli@BETA 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,303
    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2004
    I think he is missing that Google is in the AD and data mining business why would they limit their market like that.
     
  11. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Amazon created their own store ecosystem because Google prevented them from using their store. Amazon would jump on the Play Store in an instant, since they would instantly become competitive with every other Android phone.
     
  12. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

    Messages:
    10,956
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    Except this isn't actually what's happening. They're not telling anyone to do anything. AOSP doesn't require Google's app store. It's an opt in. But it's also Google's intellectual property, thats cost them billions over a decade+ to cultivate it to where it is today, and make it so compelling that third parties actually bitch that nobody can live without it and Android is worthless without it.

    In other words there are companies riding the Android gravy train that feel Google should give their IP away and make their app store and firstparty apps open source to be hacked up any way a third party sees fit. If you strip away all the irrational Google hate in threads like these, then this is what this comes down to.

    It seems Google's mistake was open sourcing Android to begin with. Because Apples iOS is completely locked to Apple hardware, and they'd sue anyone that got iOS running on any non Apple device. Yet nobody's outraged that iOS or the apple App Store are not being made available to third parties or third party hardware.
     
    verylostindeed likes this.
  13. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

    Seriously, I'm dumbfounded people are taking Googles side on this. Google is essentially forcing Amazon into having a worse app ecosystem, putting their phones at a competitive disadvantage, simply because Amazon refused to pack Google web services (an unrelated service to the Google Play Store) on their phones. Textbook anti-competitive practices.
     
  14. Trepidati0n

    Trepidati0n [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    8,818
    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2004
    It is a psychology issue. for example, most employers automatically opt you into a retirements savings plan these days. The result is 90% of people keep it and don't change when before it was well below 20%. That is a huge difference. The same goes for apps on your phone...most people will stick to what is shown to them...thus by default giving google a leg up.
     
  15. DPI

    DPI Nitpick Police

    Messages:
    10,956
    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2013
    You're dumbfounded because you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation. This isn't what happened with the Fire phone.
     
    verylostindeed likes this.
  16. kju1

    kju1 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,032
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Oh you were on Amazon's board of directors? Cool.
     
  17. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    No, just quoting law.
     
  18. PenGunn

    PenGunn Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    350
    Joined:
    May 30, 2013
    LOL. Part of all my rooted phones is loading appropriate google apps. I take it out ... then put it back. ;)
     
  19. Krazy925

    Krazy925 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,609
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Legit Question: Can you explain the finer differences between MS, Apple, and Google and why two of the three are in trouble?

    Legit curious, cause I don't get it.
     
  20. kju1

    kju1 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    3,032
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    You missed the implication - that you knew why Amazon made the decision they did. You dont.

    Also I dont see any quotes or references in your statement.
     
  21. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    The issue here for MSFT and Google is they are using dominance in one area (Operating Systems) to improve their dominance in an entirely separate area (Browsers/Web Services). In most Western nations, that's a big no-no.

    In MSFT's case, Windows is the dominant OS on Desktops, and all Windows versions come pre-packaged with IE, which defaults to using both msn.com (owned by MSFT) and Bing (owned by MSFT). The EU ruled that MSFT was using it's dominant position with Windows to unfairly benefit it's web services (IE, msn, and Bing).

    In Googles case, the situation is worse. Not only is all the above true for Google, but the Android licensing is also restrictive to the point where if an OEM chooses to not use Google's Web Services exclusively on their devices then they lose access to the Google Play Store, which obviously puts them at a massive disadvantage compared to the competition. They are also tied to specific versions of Android, which prevents them from using customized versions (such as Amazons). So essentially, Google is saying to all OEMs "Package Google Web Services and Chrome on stock Android, or lose access to the App Store". That's a huge no-no.
     
  22. Retronym

    Retronym Something big is coming.

    Messages:
    11,288
    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2007
    If I were google I'd make a matching donation to the Brexit people.
     
  23. SixFootDuo

    SixFootDuo [H]ardness Supreme

    Messages:
    5,494
    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2004
    Microsoft suuuuuucccckkkkkkkkksssssssssssssssssssss .....

    Even if they were number one, they would still suck. They fuk up everything.

    Google is number one for a reason, they are head and shoulders better than anyone else at what they do.

    Anyone can install I.E. on their android device. Apple as well.

    It's their OS, their default apps.

    When I buy a car, say a Dodge. .... it comes with a default radio. Do I now sue dodge because of that default radio? Fuck no! If I don't like it I can go by an Alpine head unit.

    I'm sure they will win on appeal.
     
  24. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    It's in the linked news article.

    So what's happening here, is that in order to gain access to the Google App Store, you are required to also pre-install Google Search and Google Web Services. That's what the EU came down on. Being prevented from using customized versions of the Android OS also didn't help matters much.

    Now, in Amazon's case, they decided to not use Google Search or Google Web Services, so Google refused to give them a license to use the Play Store.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
  25. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Which they can do. What they CAN'T do is use those default apps to their advantage. Having IE point to msn, having the default search engine be Bing is what the problem is, since they are using their dominant position in the OS market to their advantage in other unrelated markets. That's illegal under both US and EU law.

    The *problem* is when the applications that are pre-loaded on the OS directly give a competitive advantage to the OS vendor in some other area. In MSFT and Googles case, this is where they got into trouble. Apple doesn't have this problem since having Safari as the default browser doesn't directly benefit them in any way.

    That's fine, since the radio in question doesn't come pre-configured to benefit Dodge in some other market area.

    Now, if Dodge decided to make a web search engine, and their radios came pre-configured to tune to a Dodge radio station that promoted their search engine, then they'd have a problem.

    See the difference?

    No they won't. This is textbook. At most they get the damages reduced or come up with some sort of deal to lessen the penalties.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2018
    Neutrino likes this.
  26. SvenBent

    SvenBent 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,894
    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2008
    Anti monoply action does not suck. This is the reason there are more competition and more choices for service provides outside the states than inside.
     
  27. PantherBlitz

    PantherBlitz Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    421
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2011
    Sarcasm escapes some here, I see. Google is in hot water for tying unrelated products together - so make them one product and bingo, problem solved.

    How would that limit them in any way? Oh well, see above.
     
    Makaveli@BETA likes this.
  28. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    That actually causes more problems; remember when Windows broke when you disabled IE?

    Understand the root of the complaint: Google essentially forced OEMs to pre-install Google Search and Google Web Services to gain access to the Google Play Store. They also paid OEMs to ensure only Google services came pre-installed. Finally, they limited OEMs to stock Android, removing any alternative derivatives from the market.

    Each one of these is illegal under US/EU law.

    All Google needs to do to not be found in violation is:

    *) Don't require using Google Search or Google Web Services in order to gain a license to the Google Play Store
    *) Don't pay OEMs to use Google Search and Google Web Services exclusively
    *) Don't force OEMs to use stock Android

    None of these are onerous or controversial changes.
     
  29. Exavior

    Exavior [H]ardForum Junkie

    Messages:
    9,652
    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2005
    Not Google, no don't make them follow the same rules as everyone else. They aren't Microsoft so they should be allowed to so what they want. Fuck the EU. Those greedy fucks are always doing this type of shit to Google. Who cares if you are forced to use their stuff and nobody else's. I didn't buy a Android phone to use Safari as my browser or bing as search engine.
     
  30. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    And now you highlight the real reason behind all the complaining: The fact it's the EU that handed down the fine. To you, this isn't about Google or the law at all; it's about the EU and how you hate it for "reasons". You admit Google is in the wrong, but no, it's the EU handing down the fine so screw those guys and let Google do what they want, since it doesn't directly affect you.

    There's plenty of anti-EU bias here, but it's getting ridiculous at this point. The law is damn clear: Google is in the wrong.
     
  31. PantherBlitz

    PantherBlitz Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    421
    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2011
    That is one area that they can actually make reasonable arguments for. They want to prevent forks that slow/prevent security patches and have been working to tighten their grip on this.

    The EU is actually letting them them off on other issues. The OHA pretty much locks OEMs into their way or the highway
     
  32. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,041
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    Yet I still can't uninstall Edge, Cortana, the Xbox App, Dropbox, etc. etc. etc. in my Win 10 install...

    Maybe I could if I had the European version?


    I can see both sides of this. It made sense to enforce this on Microsoft, as they were essentially the only game in town for desktop operating systems there for a while, and they definitely HAD abused the process of bundling things with windows to drive competitors out of business.

    Android has at least one viable large scale competitor. It's not in the same boat at all IMHO.
     
  33. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,041
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000

    Agreed.

    I would love to see a single unified build of Android unable to be modified by OEM's, with updates pushed directly from Google to phones without any OEM involvement, similar to the Windows model. The only thing hardware companies would to would be to make sure their hardware had working drivers.

    Fuck, if Samsung phones just had vanilla android, and frequent updates I may actually consider buying them. The biggest problem with android is that every tom dick and harry sees it fit to modify the base code, to the point where it is impossible to manage updates.

    In fact, if I were king of the mobile world for a day, I'd bring about something like this:

    - Ban locked bootloaders from any manufacturer
    - Make sure users can install the OS of their choice
    - Make android a binary only release following the PC model with security updates pushed weekly if needed, regardless of how old your handset is.
     
  34. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

    Messages:
    1,565
    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    I understand that part of it, especially since fragmentation is an issue. That being said, "Open Source". You can't have it both ways. Either close source Android, or deal with the fragmentation that comes with OSS.

    Personally, I feel Microsoft shouldn't have been fined. Granted, the inability to uninstall the stock browser was an issue, but a relatively minor one. If anything, Microsoft should have been nailed for setting Bing as the default search engine, not the pre-installed browser.

    Google is doing much worse then Microsoft ever did. Remember, this isn't about competition per-se, it's about abusive practices that give an unfair advantage against the competition. The fact iOS exists is irrelevant to this discussion; Google is forcing OEMs to use it's services exclusively to gain access to the Google Play Store, and that's the big issue the EU is hitting them for.
     
  35. Krazy925

    Krazy925 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,609
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    I missed the part about the App Store. So because Apple doesn’t have a search engine they are exempt? Is that the distinction I’m missing?
     
  36. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,041
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    I guess the argument is that the fact that Google requires that OEM's include their search engine and only their search engine or else the device won't gain Play Store access is the problem.
     
    Krazy925 likes this.
  37. Krazy925

    Krazy925 2[H]4U

    Messages:
    2,609
    Joined:
    Sep 29, 2012
    Thanks, I don’t think I’m dumb I just wanted to understand the argument better and it didn’t make sense to me.

    Would Apple Maps not be an example of this?
     
  38. ymer

    ymer Limp Gawd

    Messages:
    468
    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2004
    Just another money grab from the EU
     
  39. Mugato

    Mugato Muh Feelz!

    Messages:
    933
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2014
    Just ran into this with a product. I was given a task of downloading and installing a filter for camera work, only works on apple OS. The link provided instructed me to download vmware player and run an iso of...hang on, I'm pretty sure you can't do this...sir, this is illegal. Are you sure? This guy did it didn't he? Yes, he did, and it's illegal. Oh, darn, well never mind then. Ended quick as that.
     
  40. Zarathustra[H]

    Zarathustra[H] Official Forum Curmudgeon

    Messages:
    28,041
    Joined:
    Oct 29, 2000
    I'm not sure where they draw the line. I think it might be a little different because Apple makes their own devices and don't have any third parties using their OS. That and Apple Maps is not a money making service they sell. It exists only as a service on their devices. Correct? (I don't know for sure, I haven't used anything Apple since before Apple Maps existed)