Good (but cheap) Display for a DIY Arcade cabinet?

KazeoHin

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Hey guys, I've got a real itch to build an arcade cabinet. I want to play old arcade games, and emulated gen 3 and gen 4 console titles as well. I think that sort of thing would be a killer set-piece for house parties and whatnot. I've got most of the plan all buttoned-up, the only question on my mind is this: What sort of display should I use?

My first instinct is to seek out an old 22"+ CRT monitor and use that, as it would offer an awesome retro feel, but I can also see that old high-end CRTs are in short supply nowadays, and when experienced vendors know what they are selling, these babies aren't cheap.

My next idea is an old CRT TV, 480i style. it would have an authentic look, but is this even a good idea? Are there disadvantages for this, especially considering NO games of the era I'll be emulating had support for widescreen or higher-resolution displays.

The other, less authentic idea is to use a decent quality LCD screen. Some people use 16:10 screens and then just live with the black bars, others pony up the cash for a 4:3 LCD. I don't wand TN. I'd want VA or better.

Classic Arcade monitors are out-of-question, too damn expensive.

I've only seen some passing comments and "From what I've read" anecdotes. I'd like some dialogue with people who are passionate about this stuff, or who have experience doing this stuff.

Thanks in advance.
 
A 4:3 crt TV would be the best of course. But 8bit & 16bit consoles output 240p, 224p and such resolutions, not 480i (that would be essentially the 128bit gen).

First you'll need a standard crt tv (with scart input if you live in the EU, or component input + something like a CSY-2100 if in the US).
Or you could try to find a used broadcast monitor like the Sony PVM and BVM, some models are perfect for that but you got to choose carefully.

Then a computer set up to output 15KHz video modes, using a custom VGA>SCART cable.
Google soft15khz, GroovyMame, that sort of stuff, there's usually plenty of information about that kind of hardware setup on forums.

It's not easy at all though, another solution would be to use a downscaler along with an RGB interface.
Basically an Extron combo like the Super Emotia + 203 Rxi for instance, check that website for more info: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

--------

PC crt monitors in really good shape are not the easiest thing to find today.
Those can't display actual low resolutions (the minimum accepted is 480p) so in place of a 'retro feel' you actually get the same thing as with a flat panel in terms of resolution compatibility, only with more flexibility and of course the superiority of crt performance.
It's a good choice only if you indeed pick a well preserved unit and don't intend to rotate the thing often (for fullscreen vertical games if you like).

PC lcd monitors, well we talk a lot about those here already so I'll just say that when it comes to emulation of retro stuff the higher the panel's resolution the better.
This is because if you wish to experiment with things like advanced crt shaders (google 'crt-royale') you have to know those work better with more pixel real estate.
1080p is really the bare minimum, and even so you'll run into visible problems like unevenly proportioned scanlines and less convincing crt phosphors and mask/grid imitation.
I've experienced myself that it's easier with a 1200p monitor (4:3 or 16:10) and people say it's even better with 1440p monitors of course.
Ultimately 4K and beyond will be the best choice but I haven't read about experiments in that domain even if that's already planned.

If you go 1200p don't waste your money on the few 4:3 models available from NEC or whatever brand, those don't perform very well and are sooo overpriced.
There are better and more fair priced 24" 16:10 monitors available, check NCX's recommendations here: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monitor-reviews-discussion/15723-monitor-questions-read-1st-post-post-questions-here-send-me-private-message.html
Oh and avoid 30" 16:10 1600p monitors, those all suck.

--------

Frankly speaking even though a proper low-res crt is the best thing ever, the investment in time and effort is tremendous. You'll spend a lot of time getting all the hardware to work together and tinker before it's satisfying.
Personally I think a good 1200p or 1440p, IPS or VA with good response and low lag, combined with the best of what emulation has to offer today (again: dedicated pixel shaders ftw!) is a more humanely manageable, affordable and enjoyable experience.

Ask yourself if what you want is the most authentic picture even at the expense of your actual gaming time, or a better-than average and more user-friendly solution.
 
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I had an Extron device in my setup back in the day,
switch_front.jpg


Also had this Altinex box (I put the Intel P4 Sticker on it)
altinex2.jpg


I would probably go with the CRT TV and get one that is horizontally and vertically flat.
 
I had a pair of these flat Samsungs and had no geometry issues.
editor.jpg
 
Sorry I thought you were speaking about 15KHz crt's (tv's or broadcast & arcade monitors)

Smaller crt's like found in the pc monitor realm of course suffer less from geometry issues, flat or not.
 
Why not just get an LCD, and make some kind of cover so only part of the screen (4:3) would show?
I know it's less authentic, but it's probably going to be a lot cheaper.
 
So, a 30" CRT TV with SCART would be the best option. Most old CRTs are pretty much free to a good home on EBay, so I'll see if that's where I can start.
 
If in Europe I'd look for a 29" Sony KV-29X1B, it also exists in 25" (KV-25X1B).
'B' stands for continental Europe I believe, change the last letter to A, E, U, D etc for whatever region model you're looking for.

It's pre-flat Wega meaning you get the genuine SD Trinitron goodness without the extremely-hard-to-fix geometry of the flat tube series.

End of the 90's / early 2000 though, so those are kind of hard to find now.
 
So, I found this: supposed 720i samsung on EBay, local pickup near enough to where I work. I've asked the seller for a model number, as I'd like more info and to verify that this is capable of 720i resolution. Does anyone here recognise this box?
 
So, I found this: supposed 720i samsung on EBay, local pickup near enough to where I work. I've asked the seller for a model number, as I'd like more info and to verify that this is capable of 720i resolution. Does anyone here recognise this box?

I highly doubt that. I've never seen a 4:3 CRT TV capable of HD resolutions. It is probably 480i.
 
Hi-Scan & Super-Fine-Pitch series can't display proper low resolutions such as 240p and 224p IIRC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FD_Trinitron/WEGA
If I were you I would stick with the real standard definition 15KHz models, Wega or pre-Wega with curved tube.

Also regarding any brand if you live in Europe: avoid 100Hz models at all cost, as those force an horrible 31KHz interlaced mode on all real low resolutions (240p is forced to 480i and there's nothing you can do about it)

Rule of thumb if you want the real retro deal when you go for a crt TV or broadcast monitor;
- RGB input, preferably scart (or component but you'll need a converter) -> well of course !
- 15KHz (no HD nor 100Hz model) -> absolute must or say goodbye to true low resolutions
- curved tube (no flat tube with nightmare geometry) -> preferable but not mandatory
 
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A 4:3 crt TV would be the best of course. But 8bit & 16bit consoles output 240p, 224p and such resolutions, not 480i (that would be essentially the 128bit gen).

First you'll need a standard crt tv (with scart input if you live in the EU, or component input + something like a CSY-2100 if in the US).
Or you could try to find a used broadcast monitor like the Sony PVM and BVM, some models are perfect for that but you got to choose carefully.

Then a computer set up to output 15KHz video modes, using a custom VGA>SCART cable.
Google soft15khz, GroovyMame, that sort of stuff, there's usually plenty of information about that kind of hardware setup on forums.

It's not easy at all though, another solution would be to use a downscaler along with an RGB interface.
Basically an Extron combo like the Super Emotia + 203 Rxi for instance, check that website for more info: http://scanlines.hazard-city.de/

--------

PC crt monitors in really good shape are not the easiest thing to find today.
Those can't display actual low resolutions (the minimum accepted is 480p) so in place of a 'retro feel' you actually get the same thing as with a flat panel in terms of resolution compatibility, only with more flexibility and of course the superiority of crt performance.
It's a good choice only if you indeed pick a well preserved unit and don't intend to rotate the thing often (for fullscreen vertical games if you like).

PC lcd monitors, well we talk a lot about those here already so I'll just say that when it comes to emulation of retro stuff the higher the panel's resolution the better.
This is because if you wish to experiment with things like advanced crt shaders (google 'crt-royale') you have to know those work better with more pixel real estate.
1080p is really the bare minimum, and even so you'll run into visible problems like unevenly proportioned scanlines and less convincing crt phosphors and mask/grid imitation.
I've experienced myself that it's easier with a 1200p monitor (4:3 or 16:10) and people say it's even better with 1440p monitors of course.
Ultimately 4K and beyond will be the best choice but I haven't read about experiments in that domain even if that's already planned.

If you go 1200p don't waste your money on the few 4:3 models available from NEC or whatever brand, those don't perform very well and are sooo overpriced.
There are better and more fair priced 24" 16:10 monitors available, check NCX's recommendations here: http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monitor-reviews-discussion/15723-monitor-questions-read-1st-post-post-questions-here-send-me-private-message.html
Oh and avoid 30" 16:10 1600p monitors, those all suck.

--------

Frankly speaking even though a proper low-res crt is the best thing ever, the investment in time and effort is tremendous. You'll spend a lot of time getting all the hardware to work together and tinker before it's satisfying.
Personally I think a good 1200p or 1440p, IPS or VA with good response and low lag, combined with the best of what emulation has to offer today (again: dedicated pixel shaders ftw!) is a more humanely manageable, affordable and enjoyable experience.

Ask yourself if what you want is the most authentic picture even at the expense of your actual gaming time, or a better-than average and more user-friendly solution.

Nice post.
Although I do remember for sure that older PC monitors used to display 320x240 and 400x300 just fine. But you needed a low level driver to add the bios extensions in real time, through a MS dos driver. I actually STILL have it on my old Pentium 3 computer, but can't use it since the last two CRTs I used it with (Some Dell P1130 and a Viewsonic) are....well.....gone...lol.....

Just found it actually
It was called UNIVBE.

http://www.dosdriver.de/graph.php

I remember the author. I was actually in communication with him around the turn of the century, discussing issues with certain video modes locking up emulators (MS DOS MAME) and so forth. I even remember that he actually found a BUG in the original Geforce Bios, where if a certain low resolution were called up (I think it was ...god...I don't remember....400x300 ?), the screen would not give a valid display. he debugged something and found out that the Geforce card was outputting a refresh rate of 0 hz, causing the monitor to go into power save mode. I sent an email to Nvidia and there was an updated bios a month later, which fixed that.

But yeah. use that program if you get an old CRT monitor (circa 2000-2005). It will add those 'missing' super low resolution modes just fine :) You just need the timings for the monitor.

And BTW, it was NOT the monitors that couldn't use the low res refresh rates. They could use them just fine. It was the windows compatible video cards that couldn't. I think this started around the new accelerator cards after the S3 trio days, probably around the time of the Riva TNT, when low level MS DOS support was seen more as legacy.
 
I went with an LCD due to the size I would have needed in CRT for my mame bartop but...

you could always pick up one of these and use any CRT/LCD you want. It can handle 15khz native
 
you could always pick up one of these and use any CRT/LCD you want. It can handle 15khz native

Better use an ATI gpu with the custom CRT_Emudriver by Calamity.
Check the GroovyMame forums for all info: http://forum.arcadecontrols.com/index.php/board,52.0.html

@Falkentyne; thanks for the info, actually I'm aware several pc crt monitors were able to display lower-than-VGA resolutions but they're not fit for that kind of stuff, I mean games from 8/16/32bit consoles were designed to be displayed on actual low resolution-capable 15KHz crt's.
Pc crt monitors had a way too high resolution and pitch for that.

If KazeoHin wants the real exact look those games must have, he's got to avoid everything that's a pc monitor or hd tv, whether it's crt or lcd.
Otherwise he'll have to give up on the 'real deal' and use a degree of scaling and filtering and/or simulated scanlines (which I repeat can also be very nice and much easier to achieve)

Here's a good 80+ pages discussion about actual low res monitors and what to look for, for those interested: http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=43256
 
just curious. how so?

also they must have updated arcadecontrols cause the last time I was there it looked like it was still stuck in the 90's. (still kind of does)

Because $89 for an HD5450 (ArcadeVGA) is a ripoff, might as well buy one yourself and use their home-developed XP drivers that allows for more accurate and true-to-the-original resolutions and refresh rates.

Of course arcadecontrols are still stuck in the 90's, it's a 100% retrogaming community and development of various software, drivers and mame builds continues, for playing the same old games as ever. :D
 
Because $89 for an HD5450 (ArcadeVGA) is a ripoff, might as well buy one yourself and use their home-developed XP drivers that allows for more accurate and true-to-the-original resolutions and refresh rates.

Of course arcadecontrols are still stuck in the 90's, it's a 100% retrogaming community and development of various software, drivers and mame builds continues, for playing the same old games as ever. :D

Ah cost. For some people this is not an issue and some prefer a hardware based solution that's not tied to Windows. homebrew XP drivers don't sound very appealing. heh I'm mainly asking about features.

As far as arcadecontrols... I am talking about the redesign. It was WAY worse before. They must have done something recently. I've been a member on there for 5-6 years fwiw so I know arcade controls very well. (my build log is actually still up over there.)
 
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i know this is a old thread but when i built my arcade i just used a 24" 144hz TN monitor and mounted it upside down so that there is no color shift in the viewing angle, however i may replace it with a ips panel one day



20180111_212210.jpg


20180223_213258.jpg
 
Besides the high ppi required for accurate CRT shaders, another new LCD tech that's a must have for older emulated games is adaptive sync. See here why:

I would get a 1440P VA/IPS 24"-27" with freesync and a radeon card, that would be the cheaper option. Max 75Hz is enough for emu games, you don't need 144Hz for this stuff.
 
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