GM Suspends Chevy Volt Production after Poor Sales

Many environmentalists that I have known are highly educated people. If fact one of the greenest communities in the United States is also one of the most educated cities in the US. Austin, Texas, another green city, is also highly educated.
 
any environmentalists that I have known are highly educated people. If fact one of the greenest communities, Boulder, CO, is also one of the most educated cities in the US. Austin, Texas, another green city, is also highly educated.
 
Many environmentalists that I have known are highly educated people. If fact one of the greenest communities in the United States is also one of the most educated cities in the US. Austin, Texas, another green city, is also highly educated.

In what field(s) are they educated?


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Come on now, "Many more" wouldn't even begin to approach a state wide much less national solution and you know it. You're not even really trying to put any effort into being pedantic now so I guess we're done here.

Pedantic has always been a negative word to me. I enjoy simplicity.
 
Both cities have great buses, too -- and traffic sucks in Austin, at least when I was there.
 
All kinds. Boulder is home to some of the best physicists in the world. Austin, also, has a wide range of scholars.

That's not in environmental science. They may be brilliant physicist's, but total morons in other fields and sciences. ;)

Getting a college degree now-a-days doesn't make you smart, especially w/the lower standards that they are accepting people into college with. ;)


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Boulder is home to some of the leading research facilities concerning climate change.

Where they fudge the data in order to get what they want it to read? ;)

We already know that has happened. That's why there is a credibility problem w/them.

Of course now, we have politics involved, which makes things even worse, and even more questionable.


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It's funny, people want electric cars, but don't want fossile fuel driven power plants (oil, coal), nuclear, nor even dams, which is the cleanest, to produce it.
No this isn't true at all. People in general just want reasonably affordable, clean, and safe energy. Particularly one that can be gotten without bombing brown people or relying on 3rd world near-slave labor. So long as it meets those criteria most people won't care where it comes from. Yes, even if it means a relative few birds.

While we may clean up this country, and ship all our industries, thus our jobs, overseas, in order to keep the environment clean here, and the environmentalist's happy, but what about the rest of the world, where there are no rules, regulations, nor any concern for the environment at all?
What does clean energy have to do with shipping jobs overseas? Did you know that there are less than 1 million energy, mining, and oil extraction workers total in the US? That is less than .3% of the entire population of the US, so not much of an impact even if we got rid of all those jobs tomorrow anyways.

Jobs are being shipped over seas because big and small business want to in order to shore up their profits, which BTW are quite high right now. Even higher now than before the credit bubble burst actually.


Most environmentalit's aren't degreed professional's. They are young, generally un-educated, followers, and only know, and follow what they have been brain washed, or programmed to believe. ;)
You know you catch more flies with honey rather than vinegar right?
 
Wow there are more close minded folks on here than I thought. Lets keep the big picture in mind here kids. WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE

The Japanese started with the concept of fuel efficiency about 40 years ago with the very first k-cars.

There's nothing more to this than the government and oil companies wanting to make as much money as possible.
 
As much of a commercial failure as the volt is/will be, I wouldn't put its existence entirely at the feet of our government. Fact is, this car was in development before the Obama administration even existed. There was no " you must build green car or you have no monies" conversation of any sort, rather the car became a symbol of "why" the government saved GM, despite it ending up a miserable market failure. Ironically, the Nissan Leaf (while being full electric) is a better seller. It costs $10,000 less, and it had the same tax credit as the Volt iirc. Why buy a half-ass solution when you can get the real deal for less money? Not only that, it proves that people DO want electric cars, they just don't want them to cost an arm and a leg, and actually be more than a glorified Prius.
 
As much of a commercial failure as the volt is/will be, I wouldn't put its existence entirely at the feet of our government. Fact is, this car was in development before the Obama administration even existed. There was no " you must build green car or you have no monies" conversation of any sort, rather the car became a symbol of "why" the government saved GM, despite it ending up a miserable market failure. Ironically, the Nissan Leaf (while being full electric) is a better seller. It costs $10,000 less, and it had the same tax credit as the Volt iirc. Why buy a half-ass solution when you can get the real deal for less money? Not only that, it proves that people DO want electric cars, they just don't want them to cost an arm and a leg, and actually be more than a glorified Prius.

Electric vehicles are fine and dandy in cities and urban communities, where travel is very short, to and from work and local shopping, but not all people live in those communities.

Then where do these communities get the electricity to power these vehicles? Rural America, when it comes to the wind turbines, solar farms, nuclear, dams, and many (coal and oil) power plants.

In Eastern Washington state, wind turbines are going up everywhere, destroying the scenic areas there.


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Electric vehicles are fine and dandy in cities and urban communities, where travel is very short, to and from work and local shopping, but not all people live in those communities.

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Actually, the Leaf has a range average of about 73 miles. While not near as much as a conventional ICE powered car, it's well over the average American commute of 32 miles round trip. That and range is only going to improve in the future, and costs are going to decrease. There may not be an electric car for every purse and purpose right now, but when ICE cars came on the scene that also wasn't the case.
 
As much of a commercial failure as the volt is/will be, I wouldn't put its existence entirely at the feet of our government. Fact is, this car was in development before the Obama administration even existed. There was no " you must build green car or you have no monies" conversation of any sort, rather the car became a symbol of "why" the government saved GM, despite it ending up a miserable market failure. Ironically, the Nissan Leaf (while being full electric) is a better seller. It costs $10,000 less, and it had the same tax credit as the Volt iirc. Why buy a half-ass solution when you can get the real deal for less money? Not only that, it proves that people DO want electric cars, they just don't want them to cost an arm and a leg, and actually be more than a glorified Prius.

The Leaf isn't doing that well either. In total, it's sold only a few thousand more than the Volt, and is under half of what Nissan expected.
 
The Leaf isn't doing that well either. In total, it's sold only a few thousand more than the Volt, and is under half of what Nissan expected.
The fact that it's doing better than the Volt (which keep in mind has a MUCH longer range than the Leaf, thanks to it's hybrid system) says something, and I'm willing to bet that it's pretty much only because it's a good bit cheaper. Once again, like I said, people do want these things, they just don't want to pay crazy money for them. If it was about "range anxiety" or any of that crap, no one would be buying a Leaf and Volts would be selling a good deal better than they are even with the price premium. I'd put good money on the idea that if the Leaf were the same price as similar-sized competitors, it would be selling like crazy.
 
Actually, the Leaf has a range average of about 73 miles. While not near as much as a conventional ICE powered car, it's well over the average American commute of 32 miles round trip. That and range is only going to improve in the future, and costs are going to decrease. There may not be an electric car for every purse and purpose right now, but when ICE cars came on the scene that also wasn't the case.

I commute some 26 miles each way to work, for a total of 52 miles, as well as own a condo, where there's no way to hook up plugs to my two parking spots that are assigned to me.

I just bought a new car, and thought about the Volt, and think they, design wise, look great, but they only have a range of some 35 miles on battery, as well as being very expensive. Then the salesman wasn't even pushing it, but rather the Cruise instead. I'm also not a big fan of GM, having owned a new Chevy truck once, which was a lemon, and made a vow never to buy GM ever again, at least new anyway.

Besides, I like a little performance, like a Tesla perhaps :D , but they are very expensive. Their newest model, the Model S, is advertised at 300 miles per charge. Now that's something I would seriously consider, having a decent 300 mile range, as well as performance, and looks, but they are very expensive, and they haven't started production on it yet. Besides, they are a small company, that could very well go out of business tomorrow.

Why is it that a small company, like Tesla, can develope a decent range, good looking, and fast, ALL electric car, while the big auto makers, w/all their money, can't?

Sadly, the innovation only really happens w/new small companies, as history has shown, and they tend to lose it once they get Big and very Bureacratic.


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Why is it that a small company, like Tesla, can develope a decent range, good looking, and fast, ALL electric car, while the big auto makers, w/all their money, can't?

the Tesla with the 300 mile range is $90,000, and the majority of that extra cost is for the extended range battery...The volt, or any other full electric vehicle could easily be built to also go that range, but not for the price they are selling them at
 
the Volt (which keep in mind has a MUCH longer range than the Leaf, thanks to it's hybrid system).

Just to clarify for everyone that may not be aware: The Volt is not a hybrid, it's a fully electric vehicle with an onboard gas powered generator.
 
Just to clarify for everyone that may not be aware: The Volt is not a hybrid, it's a fully electric vehicle with an onboard gas powered generator.

Technically it is a hybrid. Saying it's not a hybrid is simply a marketing gimmick even it is a slightly different sort of hybrid. Most of the time it runs all electric. When the battery runs out it runs as a series hybrid and under higher speeds, 65ish mph and up, it is a parallel hybrid similar in principal to the prius as the motor directly drives the wheels to some extent. They did it like that to raise efficiency.
 
the Tesla with the 300 mile range is $90,000, and the majority of that extra cost is for the extended range battery...The volt, or any other full electric vehicle could easily be built to also go that range, but not for the price they are selling them at

Tesla is a small company, and aren't going to make and sell very many vehicles. On the other hand, GM for example, is a big company, and could very well sell more, if the range and price were there. With GM, the more they sell, the cheaper the product becomes. Yes at first there would be a loss, which they could absorb much better than Tesla could ever do, and taking that into account, and selling a product that people would buy, like one w/a 300 mile range, there would be an eventual profit. Of course GM has to wake up like Ford has, and start seriously concentrating on quality and addressing customer loyality.

Of course we still need to have a standardized infrastructure in place for charging these vehicles, w/standard plugs, in our communities.

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Tesla is a small company, and aren't going to make and sell very many vehicles. On the other hand, GM for example, is a big company, and could very well sell more, if the range and price were there. With GM, the more they sell, the cheaper the product becomes. Yes at first there would be a loss, which they could absorb much better than Tesla could ever do, and taking that into account, and selling a product that people would buy, like one w/a 300 mile range, there would be an eventual profit. Of course GM has to wake up like Ford has, and start seriously concentrating on quality and addressing customer loyality.

Of course we still need to have a standardized infrastructure in place for charging these vehicles, w/standard plugs, in our communities.

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To add to this, why couldn't they have designed a car would could be expanded w/more battery modules, and thus longer range, later, as prices come down?


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The Leaf isn't doing that well either. In total, it's sold only a few thousand more than the Volt, and is under half of what Nissan expected.

The big picture is that even if they only sell a few hundred units, its a success for the manufacturers.

The MPGe numbers of these vehicles is used in the calculation of the CAFE number....and the bottom line is that they are only building these vehicles to be in compliance with the new standards that the government has set.

one electric vehicle will substantially skew the CAFE number in a way that will allow the manufacturer's to continue building cars that otherwise would not meet the new CAFE standard.
 
Technically it is a hybrid. Saying it's not a hybrid is simply a marketing gimmick even it is a slightly different sort of hybrid. Most of the time it runs all electric. When the battery runs out it runs as a series hybrid and under higher speeds, 65ish mph and up, it is a parallel hybrid similar in principal to the prius as the motor directly drives the wheels to some extent. They did it like that to raise efficiency.

Well shit, this is news to me, as I thought the original design concept of the Volt was to be a fully electric vehicle with the gas engine running only a generator to power the vehicle and trickle charge the battery once the charge went below a certain level. I suppose the four cylinder engine makes more sense now instead of a 1 or 2 cylinder gas or even diesel for generator only duty.

They should have stuck with an all electric + generator only design, as it probably would have been cheaper to produce, cheaper to sell, and been way more efficient.
 
Cost to much, get a Prius for $15000 less! Don't laugh I love my Prius, with $4.50 a gallon and going up everyday, I like my 50 MPG!

Your damn prius needs to get the f out of my camaro's way on the highway, seriously what the heck is a 90hp car doing in the fast lane :p
 
If you take money from the govt that is almost free, you also get free all the reasons and excuses to become a political punching bag! I guess GM is too naive to know that!
 
Actually Obama has been reducing EPA regulations and is generally pretty damn friendly with many of the big energy producers despite rhetoric from him saying otherwise. The closing of those plants has nothing to do with Obama's policies.
Stopping (or rather postponing) regulations that your own administration created, while at the same time stonewalling oil drilling permits, is like saying "Hey, I just punched you in the face instead of kicking you in the groin! Why aren't you grateful!?"


Also, it is cheaper for a society to use busing than pay for individual cars...
That conclusion is only defensible if you ignore the benefits people gain from having their own vehicle, and if you assume that everyone lives in an urban environment.

No this isn't true at all. People in general just want reasonably affordable, clean, and safe energy. Particularly one that can be gotten without bombing brown people or relying on 3rd world near-slave labor. So long as it meets those criteria most people won't care where it comes from. Yes, even if it means a relative few birds.
Relatively few? We're talking numbers in the hundreds-of-thousands-to-millions of birds killed. Actually, you're right--it is a relatively small percentage. The problem with wind and solar is that they're expensive.
What does clean energy have to do with shipping jobs overseas? Did you know that there are less than 1 million energy, mining, and oil extraction workers total in the US? That is less than .3% of the entire population of the US, so not much of an impact even if we got rid of all those jobs tomorrow anyways.
Sending jobs overseas? Oh, yes. The Obama administration has effectively (and illegally, I might add) placed a moratorium on drilling permits in the Gulf of Mexico. There is a large number of drill rigs which have now moved on to other areas of the world, along with their workers. Five coal-fired plants in Pennsylvania due to close over the next few years due to EPA regs, along with their jobs. Do you think that China is going to implement environmental regs like ours? Heck no. Obama rejects the Keystone XL pipeline. So the Canadians start negotiations with the Chinese to send their oil there instead. That means no construction jobs for that pipeline in the US, not to mention the jobs that won't be created at the refineries, nor the revenue from those exports. The list goes on and on and on.
Jobs are being shipped over seas because big and small business want to in order to shore up their profits, which BTW are quite high right now. Even higher now than before the credit bubble burst actually.
And do you know why businesses are padding their profits right now? Because they have this looming spectre of Obamacare which will kick in in 2014 and increase their costs dramatically.

Besides, what's wrong with businesses making a profit? The less profit there is to be made, the less people will do business. It's supply and demand, and there's a reason it's a Law of Economics.
 
Am I the only one that's terrified of having to buy a replacement battery for an electric car :O haven't they been like 1/3 the total cost of the car? I'm not sure how much the Volt's is but I don't really trust much of anything when they say it will be less in coming years (typically this just seems to mean everything else will be more expensive so maybe you won't care).

I guess the 8 year warranty on the battery system is nice, but it expires after 100,000 miles. So it's probably awesome for people that drive 12,000 miles a year.
 
Am I the only one that's terrified of having to buy a replacement battery for an electric car :O haven't they been like 1/3 the total cost of the car? I'm not sure how much the Volt's is but I don't really trust much of anything when they say it will be less in coming years (typically this just seems to mean everything else will be more expensive so maybe you won't care).

I guess the 8 year warranty on the battery system is nice, but it expires after 100,000 miles. So it's probably awesome for people that drive 12,000 miles a year.

We're probably talking about a disposable car, that once the batteries go, won't be cost effective to fix.


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There are a number of large companies which have moved (or are moving) operations to smaller, suburban areas where labor is cheaper and they receive tax breaks from the local city and/or county. I happen to work for one of these large, multi-national companies, who employs about 1,500 people.

People in these types of areas simply cannot rely on mass transit. In my office, we have people who commute from up to 60-70 miles away (granted the travel time is an hour or less due to minimal traffic). We also have significant snowfall in the winter months, because of a phenomenon called "lake effect". Simply put, electric cars and mass transit are not practical in this area due to a number of reasons.

Our company has been putting a larger emphasis on telecommuting and allowing people to work virtually. I think this is an important step in the right direction because it saves companies money on overhead (less desks = less space/heat/electricity/etc.) and it also saves employees' gas and maintenance on their vehicles. Even though my office is about 10 miles away, I only go in 2-3 times per week. It's not much but it saves me $20+ per week in gas. Granted, I probably wind up spending that money on electricity at home but there are people who live much further away who see a greater savings.

I think we (the USA) need to catch up in the broadband arena and start promoting more virtual environments. Virtual workplaces, classrooms, boardrooms, etc. There is no reason why we can't use technology to our advantage and reduce our reliance on fuel and transportation in general.
 
To add to this, why couldn't they have designed a car would could be expanded w/more battery modules, and thus longer range, later, as prices come down?
These already tried this but it didn't work out. The batteries don't fit in the car, they sit in a small little trailer that you hook up to the back of the car. They can also do this with a gas powered generator as a very long range back up too.

The reason why neither of these ideas really took off is because the economics involved. Its very very expensive to buy another few hundred pounds of high tech lithium batteries (which are the only thing that are really viable for EV transportation BTW) or a gas generator and these EV's are already pretty damn expensive for most people. Why spend all that cash on something that you may only use a few times a year/month when you can just rent a gas car for long trips or keep your old gas vehicle handy for just such trips?
 
Stopping (or rather postponing) regulations that your own administration created, while at the same time stonewalling oil drilling permits, is like saying "Hey, I just punched you in the face instead of kicking you in the groin! Why aren't you grateful!?"
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Sending jobs overseas? Oh, yes. The Obama administration has effectively (and illegally, I might add) placed a moratorium on drilling permits in the Gulf of Mexico.
No. The reason why the GoM drilling permits are on hold is because the oil companies fucked up big time and tried to cover their tracks and then tried to weasel out of paying damages. Remember that huge clusterfuck of a oil spill from the Deep Horizon back in 2010? Also there are only a few thousand jobs or so associated with the oil drilling business in that area IIRC.

The economic impact of postponing or even permanently stopping the drilling and oil extraction there is probably minor even on a city much less state or national level. You're making mountains out of molehills at the very least here. There are plenty of legitimate reasons to dislike Obama without blowing small things out of proportion.
The problem with wind and solar is that they're expensive.
I mostly agree with this. They still have to work out the irregularity of the power generation from these sources too of course which is a surprisingly difficult thing to do, but there is great potential there. Still needs more time in the R&D oven IMO. Personally I'd be happy if we went mostly nuke or started exploring Thorium Reactors instead. Supposedly lots of the R&D has already been done on Thorium Reactors, and they had a working test reactor in the 1960's, so I'm actually a bit more optimistic about them working than Solar/Wind.



There is a large number of drill rigs which have now moved on to other areas of the world, along with their workers. Five coal-fired plants in Pennsylvania due to close over the next few years due to EPA regs, along with their jobs.
We've already talked about this. Even if you fired pretty much all of the US energy sector workers tomorrow it'd hardly make a dent on the economy, and that certainly isn't happening. If anything with all the Nat. Gas drilling and fracking Obama has OK'd he has more than compensated with any jobs that have been lost due to his finally regulating some of the worst abuses we've seen in the last few years.

58% growth Mining, Quarrying, and Oil/Gas Extraction since 2006.
Do you think that China is going to implement environmental regs like ours? Heck no.
Actually they are. Not because they want to, but because they're being forced to. Some places in China are getting so polluted that they're being abandoned and the government there is finally starting to take notice of the situation. Abuses are still common but being cracked down on more and more.
Obama rejects the Keystone XL pipeline. So the Canadians start negotiations with the Chinese to send their oil there instead. That means no construction jobs for that pipeline in the US, not to mention the jobs that won't be created at the refineries, nor the revenue from those exports. The list goes on and on and on.
No it doesn't. The Keystone pipeline would've created at best around 15,000 temporary jobs that would've lasted around 6 months. The pipeline would've created a massive oil disaster should a major leak occur, which BTW isn't unheard of. Happens all the time over seas in countries like Liberia that no one cares about over here in the US so you don't hear about it. You're making more mountains out of molehills.
And do you know why businesses are padding their profits right now? Because they have this looming spectre of Obamacare which will kick in in 2014 and increase their costs dramatically.
Nope. They're padding their profits by outsourcing blue collar jobs and playing stupid financing games that will blow up in a few years long after the current execs and CFO's get to ride off into the sunset, sticking other people (read: you and me) with the bailout bill. Obamacare isn't going to do anything to increase healthcare costs more than they're already rising, which BTW is well over the rate of inflation, while wages stagnate or fall. THAT is the true failure of PPACA and is one of the main reasons why I dislike Obama.
Besides, what's wrong with businesses making a profit? The less profit there is to be made, the less people will do business. It's supply and demand, and there's a reason it's a Law of Economics.
Because what they're doing more closely resembles legalized robbery rather than business a la the Robber Barons during the Gilded Age. Many of these big banks and mega corps aren't really doing anything to add value to the economy as a whole, they're extracting rents to further their bottom line. Or IOW, they're making themselves richer by making everyone else poorer. Healthcare is one of the most obvious cases of this but its made all the more tragic/horrible since known solutions already exist and they're literally making people's lives shorter/crappy by denying or restricting healthcare to further their bottom line.
 
Obama rejects the Keystone XL pipeline. So the Canadians start negotiations with the Chinese to send their oil there instead. That means no construction jobs for that pipeline in the US, not to mention the jobs that won't be created at the refineries,

what refinery jobs? US Refineries have been operating at capacity for years. we need new refineries to get refinery jobs but no one wants to let them build one
 
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