Gigabyte's response to poorly made GPUs is informative and unfortunate

Yeah. I trust no PC consumer hardware manufacturers anymore.

The three majors, Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI are all trash. What can you buy now that has a reasonable guarantee that it’s built correctly?
I’ve been mulling it over a lot myself. On the hardware side there's been a baseline of bad decisions made to juice numbers for benchmarks at the expense of hardware longevity. Then on software there's Gigabyte's auto-updater that didn't even bother to find secure HTTP connections to download updates, or MSI managing to fumble the ball on its UEFI key security, or countless terrible drivers and hardware control software packages...

I would really like to build an ITX machine around Fractal Design's new Terra case, but what do I put into it that won't feel like I'm taking a chance just by putting it into service?
 
What about ASRock?
ASRock Rack is pretty cool - it seems to be the division of the company where the most... creative, say, folks go to make things like nearly-ITX Threadripper boards and other well-executed lunacy. I'm kinda meh on the rest of their lineup - their lower end kit is pretty dire, and while they haven't had any recent incidents like their peers where they peed on the third rail of trust, I'm not inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt reflexively. All of which is to say that I'd trust them over the Big Three or Biostar, but I'm not necessarily thrilled at the idea.

Also had terrible luck with ASRock's Challenger Intel A380 - two different cards, both variably unstable and weird, leading to returns.
 
I was trying to be nice earlier, but this is fundamentally true. Everything I've ever bought by them had some quirk that hampered my full enjoyment of the experience.

God, I miss when Intel made motherboards.
I would trust an EVGA Dark, provided it has the feature set I need. And comes in ITX.

I personally really miss Abit. They died due to corruption not incompetence when it came to quality or warranty support.
 
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brand loyalty will get you nowhere.
I mean the problem is that how do you know if something will have problems years down the road? There's no way when a new product gets released to be able to say "This one was built properly and won't fail." That is where brand loyalty comes in to play. If Brand X has a history of making things that are well built and don't fail, you assume that they are likely to do that with newer stuff. Hence you get brand loyalty. Doesn't mean you should be a zealot that purchases their stuff even if they start to suck or defend bad decisions, but brand loyalty makes sense in terms of "I want something that is likely to be good, this brand has been good in the past, it should be good now."
 
I mean the problem is that how do you know if something will have problems years down the road? There's no way when a new product gets released to be able to say "This one was built properly and won't fail." That is where brand loyalty comes in to play. If Brand X has a history of making things that are well built and don't fail, you assume that they are likely to do that with newer stuff. Hence you get brand loyalty. Doesn't mean you should be a zealot that purchases their stuff even if they start to suck or defend bad decisions, but brand loyalty makes sense in terms of "I want something that is likely to be good, this brand has been good in the past, it should be good now."
If you're 'in the biz' long enough, you know that quality never lasts. These are publicly traded companies: Once their brand becomes top-performing, they have no more market to capitalize on: so the only way to increase profit is to reduce costs, which means sacrificing service or quality. Gigabyte used to be the most respected in the industry, their quality was good and they got tons of recommendations: they were number-one or close to it. Then around the launch of the original i7, their products started having a huge failure rate, their service dropped off, and they were overtaken by Asus who capitalized on the 'quality' and now look at them. EVGA was considered one of the absolute best, but they found that being top-quality can't make you the top-money. Same with ABIT, DFI, you name it.

Brands leapfrog each other all the time. New management, market conditions, or just plain human nature will make it so that t
 
I think EVGA has always made the best motherboards. Now that they no longer make cards they are really missing the boat by not expanding their motherboard offerings. I'd be the first to buy an LGA 1700 itx board from them also.
 
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If you're 'in the biz' long enough, you know that quality never lasts. These are publicly traded companies: Once their brand becomes top-performing, they have no more market to capitalize on: so the only way to increase profit is to reduce costs, which means sacrificing service or quality. Gigabyte used to be the most respected in the industry, their quality was good and they got tons of recommendations: they were number-one or close to it. Then around the launch of the original i7, their products started having a huge failure rate, their service dropped off, and they were overtaken by Asus who capitalized on the 'quality' and now look at them. EVGA was considered one of the absolute best, but they found that being top-quality can't make you the top-money. Same with ABIT, DFI, you name it.

Brands leapfrog each other all the time. New management, market conditions, or just plain human nature will make it so that t

Still doesn't change how people are going to operate. Otherwise what's the system? Buy at random? Don't buy whatever you bought last time?

Also I'm not sure I agree that companies can't stay good. NetApp has been top notch for the over decade we've used them as one example.

Either way I'm not trying to say people should be blindly brand loyal, but it is very understandable that people buy something that has worked for them before. What else is there to go by for a new product? Even things like cars. Ya, if you buy a 5-10 year old car you can research to see if that particular model/platform is a low problem one or not. But if you buy a new car all you really can go off of is past history.
 
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I miss EVGA already.

I liked EVGA as much as the next guy, but people seem to look at them with rose tinted glasses. They had lots of big fails on their own.
And yes while they had great CS in some cases the poor design couldn't be fixed with a good RMA. (see initial x79, initial 1080 FTW series, etc).

Every manufacturer has fails in manufacturing. We just need to hold them accountable for them to fix the current issue and hope it doesn't happen in the future.
 
Yeah. I trust no PC consumer hardware manufacturer anymore.

The three majors, Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI are all trash. What can you buy now that has a reasonable guarantee that it’s built correctly?
What's wrong with asus? I had been using their products for over a decade, no issues yet.
 
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Yeah. I trust no PC consumer hardware manufacturer anymore.

The three majors, Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI are all trash. What can you buy now that has a reasonable guarantee that it’s built correctly?
I personally really miss Abit.
It's a shame that this has become more of a occurrence now in the PC enthusiast world with faulty hardware. I worked in Quality Control for over twenty years and it seems that QC has become a thing of the past.

I was a big Abit fan back in the day and they were my go to manufacturer. After they shut down I used just about every other manufacturer out there then settled on Gigabyte for a while as they were less problematic than the others until a few hiccups recently. I decided to give Asus another try just in time for them to falter as well (though I haven't had any issues with my current set up). If I were building now I think I'd go with Asrock just for the sake of giving them a shot. I had a few of their lower tier boards work fine for me and are still going in a few friends builds.
 
I liked EVGA as much as the next guy, but people seem to look at them with rose tinted glasses. They had lots of big fails on their own.
And yes while they had great CS in some cases the poor design couldn't be fixed with a good RMA. (see initial x79, initial 1080 FTW series, etc).

Every manufacturer has fails in manufacturing. We just need to hold them accountable for them to fix the current issue and hope it doesn't happen in the future.
Where EVGA actually differs from Gigabyte is that all their products, they stepped up. I owned the products you mentioned and they did right by me on providing a fix free of charge before anything broke, and for parts that did break, they've always stood behind their products. In some cases like a PSU I had, they upgraded my model a step up, in others I got a free video upgrade tier. I only have 1 EVGA mobo, but compared to my last 3 Asus boards, the feature set and attention to detail on connector placements are lightyears ahead of these boards despite at the time being a mid tier motherboard price wise.

Abit was my mobo choice go to before Asus. During that era, Asus had some real stinkers with support and quality so today's behavior doesn't really shock me. I really liked Gigabyte's windforce line when it first came out. I still have an old 680 in my parts bin.
 
Read reviews, ask around, look at recent examples. That part isn't hard.
And what review of a new product tells you if that product is going to last a long time? that is the part you seem to be missing about why people buy brands: When you buy something brand new there is NO DATA on longevity, so all you can go on is how the brand generally performs.
 
Wasn't ASRock a spinout from ASUS? For "low end" products where ASUS did not want to compete?
Short answer, yes. The brand has taken on a life of its own in some sectors since, but a lot of their bread & butter's still lower end products, and they're sorta flaky.
 
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It’s also pathetic that some YouTube celebrities (Jay) ride the coattails of others. Others discover the issue and he piles on for his own click revenue. He did the same with the GN/Asus problem.
Yes, he always waits for someone else to do the work then just blabs on about the same thing that has already been said by someone else. On his picture on the main video you could clearly see that the Asus card would be more rigid over the Gigabyte card by the poor design of the card allowing more flex.
 
A TechTuber (Buildzoid I think?) pointed out that with GPU heatsinks being absolutely enormous the past couple generations, we're likely to see more and more of this kind of damage. It's more important than ever for cards to be properly designed to support their own weight without putting undue stress on the PCB around the PCIe edge connector.
 
It’s also pathetic that some YouTube celebrities (Jay) ride the coattails of others. Others discover the issue and he piles on for his own click revenue. He did the same with the GN/Asus problem.
Even more pathetic is the Gigabyte response.

So how is MSI on issues like this one. I know from experience that ASUS RMA is like an obstacle course where the barriers are like 45 feet high.
 
I have never heard anyone talk about ASRock as being a bastion of reliability and quality or warranty support.
Ok. I have had 4 asrock motherboards of different generations and, while decidedly cheap, they have all been solid. I am currently running the rig in my signature and have not had one board related issue.

I also ran a b85 Asrock board 24/7 in my home server for years, (10? Maybe more) and it didn’t miss a beat.
 
Ok. I have had 4 asrock motherboards of different generations and, while decidedly cheap, they have all been solid. I am currently running the rig in my signature and have not had one board related issue.

I also ran a b85 Asrock board 24/7 in my home server for years, (10? Maybe more) and it didn’t miss a beat.
Sure. And I’ve used 6 motherboards from Asus that all never worked right. I would say we’re both outliers.
 
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With things going on long enough, any of these companies will eventually run into an issue. Some companies are gone entirely, others rise and fall (AsRock I still don't consider to be great, but they have improved from the NEVER BUY list they were several years ago and when I was seeking a X670E mobo I compared their Taichi series alongside competitors from MSI, GIgabyte/AORUS, Asus and the like.), and one off events come and go. Its also worth delineating the difference between a company's technical performance and something like RMA smoothness as sometimes you can find a company that has generally good products but if you DO run into an issue its a bigger pain in the ass.

No company is perfect and while tracking repeat and/or serious issues is useful, I think that the issue of social media can VASTLY distort the picture of an issue and the company or products involved; narratives being formed, reinforced, exploited, and monetized structured by repeat waves flowing out, building, crashing to shore and repeating again in a way that differs from even a decade ago and is worlds away from the 2000s. There's a lot of other issues as well such as which situations cause the "influencers" to make a bigger deal of things and which don't, but simply watching the fallout from the Zen4 firmware issue result in people who were thinking erroneously that some huge percentage of chips in Asus boards were blowing up proved again that the entire social media shitstorm is not necessarily making people informed; I ran an admittedly informal poll in a tech-focused community with about 300-400 responses and more than 60% of respondents believed that the chance of visible and/or noticeable functionally affecting thermal damage on Asus boards was at least 30%- that more than 1 in every 4 Asus Zen4 owners would have their chips blowing up! This is clearly preposterous and for all the other issues I had with how the issue was covered and focused, those investigating typically mentioned the rarity or difficulty to reproduce the issue and referenced that other manufacturers mobos had reports as well, , but I think that the social media repetition of certain references, vernacular (ie exaggerated titles meant to draw viewership etc) , meant that the signal was out competed by noise, sometimes from the same source no less.

But I digress. All we can do its try to address each issue as it arises, fairly and evenly. Look at every product and compare; while users may have positive or negative experiences that shapes their preferences or blacklists, don't forget that what was great last generation may not necessarily be the same this one, or vise versa. Sometimes there are bigger systemic issues to discuss - QA as a whole, RMA restrictions, and the reaction of the entire industry seems to be going through some difficulties in recent years, to say nothing of pricing. - and sometimes its just a one off event where some company messed up to a greater or lesser degree. These sorts of events aren't anything new necessarily, but some facets of how and the environment or response may be (aforementioned social media); I think some of the long standing [H] staff will probably have a perspective here.
 
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Dunno, I have had 3 Asus motherboards that also didn’t work right
And I've only ever had one Asus motherboard which didn't have to be RMA'd within a year because it died. That motherboard happens to be an AMD B450 motherboard and I only chose it because of price and discount. Otherwise I had not touched a single one since the Socket A days because every single one up and died on me out of the blue and a buddy who always built with the same motherboard I did had the exact same problem. Ironically, the boards received as RMA always worked fine and never had a problem. This was back when Asus didn't have terrible RMA issues. It still took a couple weeks to get the replacement due to shipping back and forth and such. That was annoying but expected. However, the RMA process was smooth back then. I've literally never had to RMA a motherboard other than Asus motherboards.

I still have Asus basically at the bottom of the list and I would look at an Asrock board over an Asus board for AMD builds at the moment.
 
I'm still on Asus boards as you can see from my signature. Traditionally they've been one of the few OEMs to have the features I wanted (back when Ryzen launched, I needed a mobo with PCI slots and it was only Asus and MSI that had such a beast - remember, if you were coming off of Bulldozer to Ryzen like I was, you likely still had some PCI cards). Also, I remember when they went out of their way to update their BIOS' to support new CPUs back in the earlier AMD days, and I valued that. Build quality was usually pretty good, and RMA for the rare times I needed it, was merely... unpleasant. As a result, I rewarded them with my $$$.

Now Asus RMA has taken over one of the nine circles of Hell. I actively dread ever having to deal with them again. I'm not even going to get into it, because I worry about my blood pressure. Asus has always played a little fast and loose with voltages and bus timings to game the benchmarks, but it has gotten downright egregious in recent years. They used to be able to get by with it because their special custom management circuits used to be able to catch and resolve problems and thus protect your hardware. Now it seems they still throw the circuits on the boards as a marketing bullet point, but aren't actually using them anymore (see the Gamer's Nexus analysis on the exploding 7000-series X3D chips where they discuss this). Asus has gotten so used to being a "top brand" that their lower end mobos, which used to be really solidly built and only missing frills, are actually kinda garbage now with underpowered VRMs with the world's dinkiest heatsinks pushed right to the edge -- on boards that command a price premium over similar boards from other OEMs. Onboard sensor suites that fail in such a way that the fan controllers on them just... stop, requiring MULTIPLE BIOS revisions to still not completely fix (Why yes, I do own some Crosshair VI and VII products... and every single one of them has a Corsair Commander Pro attached to it to control the fans). Their midrange and premium boards are all super expensive and tatted up with the stupidest marketing bullshit now. My Strix (read: midrange) x670e-A Gaming Wifi mobo cost me $400 ON SALE, and it was the cheapest board in the Strix x670e range (note that the Crosshair VI Extreme ultra-tippety-top high end x370 mobo cost this much when it was released). My Strix has "for those who dare" printed ALL OVER IT in tiny text. For those who dare to do what, exactly? To price gouge the ever-living shit out of me on a "midrange" board?

I dunno, man... it's not just any one thing - it's ALL of these things added together over time, like death by a thousand paper cuts. What I do know is that I am going to be very seriously reconsidering my support of Asus for any future purchases. You know shit has gotten really bad when I'm actually thinking ASRock might be worth giving another shot... and the PCIe x16 slot came right off the mainboard with along the video card on one of the only 2 ASRock boards I have ever touched, and no I was not yanking on it. It was a brand-new b350 Ryzen board for a budget build for a friend. At least ASRock didn't give me a bunch of crap about it when I RMA'd it. I did not have any problems with the x370 ASRock Taichi I bought from a seller here on the [H] though.
 
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