Get your shovels ready: it's time to bury old iMacs
By Muskaan SaxenaApple is planning to make several 2013 and 2014 iMac models obsolete by the end of November, which means it might be time to bid a fond farewell to some old favorites.
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If Apple made their products user-repairable - in the same way PC users can upgrade parts of their machines when new components are needed - we would see wider support for older technologies.
Hey, aluminum supports help keep landfills more organized.The irony in all of these megacorps that claim to care about the environment and be "green" while forcing obsolescence without any alternatives.
I've got a mac mini past support, Opencore Legacy Patcher works just fine to keep it on a supported releaseGet your shovels ready: it's time to bury old iMacs
By Muskaan Saxena
Apple is planning to make several 2013 and 2014 iMac models obsolete by the end of November, which means it might be time to bid a fond farewell to some old favorites.
didn't know that existed - that is frickin sweet!I've got a mac mini past support, Opencore Legacy Patcher works just fine to keep it on a supported release
Folks don't seem to completely understand what Apple's definition of "obsolete" means.The irony in all of these megacorps that claim to care about the environment and be "green" while forcing obsolescence without any alternatives.
At least offer a decade of OS security patches before doing so - the 2014 model was barely supported for eight years.
From the article:
Gee, it's almost like proprietary equipment and corporatist practices are a bad thing for the environment, and humanity in general.
Linux and BSD can breath new life into those systems, though probably only on the secondary markets.
So glad I'm still rocking a October 2005 iMac that is fully serviceable with non-proprietary parts.
Maybe Apple was better under Steve Jobs... what has the world come to when that thought pops in.
Like how auto manufacturers stop making parts after 7 years so you're forced to either pull used parts or use garbage aftermarket.The irony in all of these megacorps that claim to care about the environment and be "green" while forcing obsolescence without any alternatives.
At least offer a decade of OS security patches before doing so - the 2014 model was barely supported for eight years.
From the article:
Gee, it's almost like proprietary equipment and corporatist practices are a bad thing for the environment, and humanity in general.
Linux and BSD can breath new life into those systems, though probably only on the secondary markets.
So glad I'm still rocking a October 2005 iMac that is fully serviceable with non-proprietary parts.
Maybe Apple was better under Steve Jobs... what has the world come to when that thought pops in.
You can continue using the machine(s). Nothing will prevent users from doing so.The irony in all of these megacorps that claim to care about the environment and be "green" while forcing obsolescence without any alternatives.
At least offer a decade of OS security patches before doing so - the 2014 model was barely supported for eight years.
Quote within a quote doesn't work, but I'll say kinda what Aurelius above said, this isn't any different than any 8 year old laptop or 8 year old motherboard not being supported. Can you still buy brand new 8 year old Gigabyte boards? There is no PC support for hardware that many years on either. Not sure why this is an "Apple problem". Proprietary or not there isn't really a lot of options.From the article:
Again, only nerds will want to do this. There are NO general hardware users that care about using 8 year old machines (not literally, obviously you care, but I don't think you recognize what a minority you are, a hyper-minority). Even my Dad who doesn't know the difference between macOS, Linux, and Windows, beyond that "they are different", hates cellphones, and still reads the newspaper daily has never had a computer for more than 6-7 years. And he was always self-employed. Meaning no computer was ever given to him. Even he still has always had machines newer than that. In terms of generalist users, maybe Grandma.Gee, it's almost like proprietary equipment and corporatist practices are a bad thing for the environment, and humanity in general.
Linux and BSD can breath new life into those systems, though probably only on the secondary markets.
Again, I feel like this is mostly just you and ultra nerds. Even if it had completely user replaceable everything there is NO computer from 2005 that I would want to use. Heck, there is barely machines from 5 years ago that I would want to use save maybe some workstation hardware.So glad I'm still rocking a October 2005 iMac that is fully serviceable with non-proprietary parts.
Maybe Apple was better under Steve Jobs... what has the world come to when that thought pops in.
Recycling and then making you buy a new one isn't doing anything for the environment. If Apple simply supported this old hardware with their Mac OSX, then these devices wouldn't need to end up being melted down into Apple monitor stands. I can and have installed Linux Mint on even older Macs with great success. Roblox with Steam and all working better than Mac OSX. This is why you don't trust the OEM with software because they can and will (Apple) use it to force you to upgrade. I guarantee you most people wouldn't know the difference between a 2013 Mac vs a 2022 Mac for their daily tasks. Until they get a message that they need to upgrade.You can continue using the machine(s). Nothing will prevent users from doing so.
Also Apple offers free recycling for any and all of its products. If this ends up in landfills, then that's the fault of bad users. Not the fault of Apple, who again would recycle any and all hardware for free.
It's not an Apple problem, but Apple is the mega corp who hides money to avoiding paying taxes that can afford to support their older hardware. You'd think Apple would be the exception, not part of the norm.Not sure why this is an "Apple problem". Proprietary or not there isn't really a lot of options.
According to Big Bang theory, nerds are cool now.Again, only nerds will want to do this.
Most of the people I deal with daily drive that kind of hardware. If it isn't due to familiarity, then it's due to cost. You have no idea how many Core2Duo's I fix and upgrade.but no one is using that as their primary computer and nor would they want to.
Your opinion is not the world. Trust me. Also, what's this hate you have against nerds? May I remind you're posting on a niche forum that their main webpage was closed down too many years ago. What do you think that makes you?Again, I feel like this is mostly just you and ultra nerds. Even if it had completely user replaceable everything there is NO computer from 2005 that I would want to use. Heck, there is barely machines from 5 years ago that I would want to use save maybe some workstation hardware.
And what am I supposed to do with my old machines from Dell or HP? You say it does nothing for the environment, so you're cool with mercury from displays and PCBs as well as lithium batteries just getting dumped into a landfill? There is either a huge amount of ignorance here or willful blindness. E-waste is a monumentally huge problem, a global one. Last I checked actually recycling things is a massive step up from landfill. Good to know that you're not an environmentalist though for future discussions and/or you have no idea about any environmentally related topics.Recycling and then making you buy a new one isn't doing anything for the environment. If Apple simply supported this old hardware with their Mac OSX, then these devices wouldn't need to end up being melted down into Apple monitor stands.
So, let them do that. Except they won't. Because it's not really me you're fighting against. It is users that won't and don't care. And as you state below, don't know the difference. This is the most esoteric user base of all time if they are educated enough to run Linux Mint on old Mac's but too ignorant to know the difference between an 8 year old machine and a new one. And an even more esoteric user base if that machines is their main computer that they're doing all of their most important computing tasks on.I can and have installed Linux Mint on even older Macs with great success.
For the 400th time, nothing is forcing them to stop using their machines. Just like Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to stop using Windows 7. And I would argue that Microsoft is probably being way more annoying about upgrading too, up to attempting to force users to upgrade through Windows update which could nuke your Windows install. But that's off-topic even if it's a 1:1 example.Roblox with Steam and all working better than Mac OSX. This is why you don't trust the OEM with software because they can and will (Apple) use it to force you to upgrade.
According to you, most people game and the reason for picking any system is gaming. Also according to you, this user base also want to run Linux on old versions of Macs. Apparently also according to you people can't tell the difference between a dual core i5 and an M1.I guarantee you most people wouldn't know the difference between a 2013 Mac vs a 2022 Mac for their daily tasks. Until they get a message that they need to upgrade.
That has nothing to do with this discussion. Go to the soapbox.It's not an Apple problem, but Apple is the mega corp who hides money to avoiding paying taxes that can afford to support their older hardware. You'd think Apple would be the exception, not part of the norm.
Missing the forest for the trees.According to Big Bang theory, nerds are cool now.
Great? So let them continue to use that hardware.Most of the people I deal with daily drive that kind of hardware. If it isn't due to familiarity, then it's due to cost. You have no idea how many Core2Duo's I fix and upgrade.
Neither is yours. Here, I'll play a game with you: what percentage of 2013 iMac's would you say are still in use versus their original amount sold? Any number you come up with isn't going to be favorable to your position. I'm going to go with <5%.Your opinion is not the world.
Again, you've monumentally missed the point. The point is no one is using those old machines other than a hyper minority. You may give that hyper minority any name you want. Go ahead DNX, choose the name for this hyper minority, it's not really relevant. Half of your points are unrelated tangents and not the topic at hand, which is about par for the course.Trust me. Also, what's this hate you have against nerds? May I remind you're posting on a niche forum that their main webpage was closed down too many years ago. What do you think that makes you?
You say it does nothing for the environment, so you're cool with
Also covered in what I said next. A majority of users do not use machines for 8 years. EOL happens no matter what and whether you’re on PC or Mac for most that’s a 5-6 year long process. But please show me how many users are using a 9 year old 2013 iMac that are getting severely affected by this. DNX also went on a dumb tangent saying that Apple recycles machines just to build monitor stands. So if you want to complain about facts not in evidence, as if PC's somehow don't use raw materials or whatever his absurd point is (and as if PCB's and LCD screens could somehow become aluminum), then hold him to the same standard. Or the simple fact that 90% of computer hardware is coming from PC's and then therefore a disproportionate amount of eWaste is coming from EOL PC's - but he's made it clear that he's good with pollution, so long as it's not Mac pollution and as you note that the pollution is on his arbitrary time table and not anyone else's.Dude, you're assuming facts not in evidence. He said "recycling your old unit and then forcing you to buy a new one doesn't help the environment." His very next words imply "compared to supporting the old unit longer." And as far as that goes, he's right. Recycling isn't 100%, and "not getting a new machine" has less impact on the environment than "replacing a machine."
I'm going to make many factual statements you won't like. Everyone is big on buying the better product for the environment when in reality you shouldn't be buying another product unless you absolutely need to. Trashing a working 2013 Mac to buy a new Mac to basically do the same tasks is worse than not buying a new product. Even if you carefully recycle the old Mac, you're still generating more CO2 and other byproducts than you would if you didn't.You say it does nothing for the environment, so you're cool with mercury from displays and PCBs as well as lithium batteries just getting dumped into a landfill? There is either a huge amount of ignorance here or willful blindness.
If the Linux community can support older Macs for free, what does that say about Apple who's worth far too much?So, let them do that. Except they won't. Because it's not really me you're fighting against. It is users that won't and don't care. And as you state below, don't know the difference. This is the most esoteric user base of all time if they are educated enough to run Linux Mint on old Mac's but too ignorant to know the difference between an 8 year old machine and a new one. And an even more esoteric user base if that machines is their main computer that they're doing all of their most important computing tasks on.
You wanna use a machine that stops getting security updates? Also, lots of software including web browsers will refuse to work with older OS's. Eventually you gotta upgrade your software or you can't use certain websites.For the 400th time, nothing is forcing them to stop using their machines. Just like Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to stop using Windows 7.
See, you can learn.According to you, most people game and the reason for picking any system is gaming. Also according to you, this user base also want to run Linux on old versions of Macs. Apparently also according to you people can't tell the difference between a dual core i5 and an M1.
The Macbook Air 2012 I have was upgraded to Linux Mint and has a 256 SSD. Apple still sells M2 Macbooks with SSD's. Made the UI look like Mac OS X, including the startup animation and sounds. Gave it to my niece so she can do school work, youtube, roblox, and minecraft.In terms of hardware, one of which will do all of it's "basic computing tasks" instantly with instant on, no loading times for anything, significantly upgraded webcams and microphones, better displays, and a totally different design.
Apple is one of the most profitable companiess in the world, so they can afford to make better designs that allow for upgrade-ablety and repairs. When my desktop PC breaks I don't replace it I just replace the broken part. The same can't be said about Apple products.While the other has a good chance of still running rotational hard drives (in all 21" models) and a fusion drive at best for 27" ones, 512MB of RAM on their graphics card (relevant for watching even content), and will likely have slow downs especially on all machines that didn't/don't have upgraded RAM (which could be as low as 4GB).
If they are that level of ignorant again, nothing is forcing them to upgrade. There is probably no computing task that that user is doing that will make a difference whether they're running a new version of macOS or not or with new hardware or not because apparently this group doesn't notice "speed" at all.
That has nothing to do with this discussion. Go to the soapbox.
You're just a jerk who's throwing stones in glass houses.Missing the forest for the trees.
Get Apple to open source their entire Mac OSX and let the community support their older hardware. I guarantee you people would do it. Apple won't because money. My point is that lack of software support for older Macs is a financial decision, and not a environmentally friendly one too.Apple has forced no one to do anything with their old hardware.
Insults and assumptions aren't necessary for this conversation, which you yourself started.Good to know that you're not an environmentalist though for future discussions and/or you have no idea about any environmentally related topics.
If you would bother to look at individuals' sigs on here you might realize how wrong you are on that one.Half the point that you're missing is that NO USER uses 8 year old machines on this forum as their main computer. Not just Apple ones.
No, but it is us that you yourself are fighting against, unnecessarily I might add.Because it's not really me you're fighting against.
"an even more esoteric user base" - do you even know what forum you are posting on???It is users that won't and don't care. And as you state below, don't know the difference. This is the most esoteric user base of all time if they are educated enough to run Linux Mint on old Mac's but too ignorant to know the difference between an 8 year old machine and a new one. And an even more esoteric user base if that machines is their main computer that they're doing all of their most important computing tasks on.
That is not 1:1.Just like Microsoft isn't forcing anyone to stop using Windows 7. And I would argue that Microsoft is probably being way more annoying about upgrading too, up to attempting to force users to upgrade through Windows update which could nuke your Windows install. But that's off-topic even if it's a 1:1 example.
DukenukemX never stated that, and you are putting words into their mouth.According to you, most people game and the reason for picking any system is gaming.
Many average non-power users cannot tell the difference for daily tasks.Also according to you, this user base also want to run Linux on old versions of Macs. Apparently also according to you people can't tell the difference between a dual core i5 and an M1.
Essentially what I just wrote, agreed with the first part.In terms of hardware, one of which will do all of it's "basic computing tasks" instantly with instant on, no loading times for anything, significantly upgraded webcams and microphones, better displays, and a totally different design. While the other has a good chance of still running rotational hard drives (in all 21" models) and a fusion drive at best for 27" ones, 512MB of RAM on their graphics card (relevant for watching even content), and will likely have slow downs especially on all machines that didn't/don't have upgraded RAM (which could be as low as 4GB).
Which goes to the point, why upgrade needlessly unless they are forced to by said megacorps artificially ending support for said platforms.If they are that level of ignorant again, nothing is forcing them to upgrade. There is probably no computing task that that user is doing that will make a difference whether they're running a new version of macOS or not or with new hardware or not because apparently this group doesn't notice "speed" at all.
What DukenukemX mentioned is absolutely relevant to the discussion.That has nothing to do with this discussion. Go to the soapbox.
Kettle meet pot.Missing the forest for the trees.
You would be surprised at how much higher that percentage is, especially on the secondary and used markets.Neither is yours. Here, I'll play a game with you: what percentage of 2013 iMac's would you say are still in use versus their original amount sold? Any number you come up with isn't going to be favorable to your position. I'm going to go with <5%.
Not hardly.Most of what I'm presenting is facts.
Upgrading from acting like a technocrat fascist to a technocrat elitist I see!But I'll gladly welcome numbers to the contrary showing just how many 8 and 9 year old iMacs are still being used, how unimportant recycling is, the intelligence of users to install Linux Mint but don't know the difference between new and old hardware, etc.
Yes, continuing support for computers by a multi-trillion dollar megacorp should be far more cost effective than you are leading on.The bottom line is you want support for an incredibly small amount of machines in a hardware base that either doesn't want support or need it. Because they're not using these machines for current computing tasks, too ignorant to know the difference, or simply want to keep old hardware sitting on a shrine somewhere as a "vintage machine" that they think is cool.
By ending support, and without 3rd party support tools like Opencore Legacy Patcher, Apple has basically relegated all of these old but perfectly capable systems to a landfill.Apple has forced no one to do anything with their old hardware. If you want to keep it forever and use it just like it is then you are free to do that. No point you've made addresses that. This is a massive fake news post. No one has to bury anything they don't want. Apple would prefer it's not in the landfill (which apparently you don't care about) and recycled properly - but users are free to do what they choose. Is that not clear to you?
Outside of enterprise, you would be shocked at how inaccurate that statement is.Also covered in what I said next. A majority of users do not use machines for 8 years.
They do, the aluminum is recycled, which is at least good for the environment, but is also good for their profits which I might add does nothing for the customers in the end to reflect any kind of lower costs on products, discounts, etc.DNX also went on a dumb tangent saying that Apple recycles machines just to build monitor stands.
Get over yourself, your attitude and disrespect is getting old.Secondly for the 401st time
Ironic that you call me a "weird power user" when you are literally on [H]ardForum which consist of nothing but power users with esoteric technological tastes and desires.If you're some weird power user like Red Falcon that wants to continue using this obsolete hardware and also wants software updates you can install Windows, Linux, or OpenCore for those that want to continue running macOS.
*OpinionsI'm going to make many factual statements you won't like.
Great. And the worst offender here is still PC users. By volume. Start pointing the finger at every PC user in this place. Especially power users that upgrade their hardware yearly.Everyone is big on buying the better product for the environment when in reality you shouldn't be buying another product unless you absolutely need to. Trashing a working 2013 Mac to buy a new Mac to basically do the same tasks is worse than not buying a new product. Even if you carefully recycle the old Mac, you're still generating more CO2 and other byproducts than you would if you didn't.
While that is partially true it isn't the entire picture. What you don't like is computers that are designed to be appliances. And it's your hill to die on. Because we don't have this series conversations about washing machines, refrigerators, microwaves.The solution is to make products repairable, upgrade-able, and modular. Apple is doing none of that and is probably the worst offender. They don't because it isn't nearly as profitable.
The Linux community pays no one. Because their time is worthless. They are free to do with their time however they wish. Also there is another community that has created OpenCore like I already stated to continue running macOS if they should so choose.If the Linux community can support older Macs for free, what does that say about Apple who's worth far too much?
That takes a very long time. In terms of browsers and support that takes forever. Especially because browsers such as Firefox and Chrome exist.You wanna use a machine that stops getting security updates? Also, lots of software including web browsers will refuse to work with older OS's. Eventually you gotta upgrade your software or you can't use certain websites.
The Macbook Air 2012 I have was upgraded to Linux Mint and has a 256 SSD. Apple still sells M2 Macbooks with SSD's. Made the UI look like Mac OS X, including the startup animation and sounds. Gave it to my niece so she can do school work, youtube, roblox, and minecraft.
Cool. This is why you buy PCs. It's called: choice in the market. Buy what you want. Other people buy what they want.Apple is one of the most profitable companiess in the world, so they can afford to make better designs that allow for upgrade-ablety and repairs. When my desktop PC breaks I don't replace it I just replace the broken part. The same can't be said about Apple products.
Just telling it like it is. Sorry that it tastes bad going down.You're just a jerk who's throwing stones in glass houses.
Apple is a business. If you want to run Apple, buy them. They owe you nothing. You don't give them your business anyway, why would they listen to you?Get Apple to open source their entire Mac OSX and let the community support their older hardware. I guarantee you people would do it.
Yes. Capitalism. Show me any PC manufacturer that isn't doing something because of money. I'll wait.Apple won't because money. My point is that lack of software support for older Macs is a financial decision,
You harp on this while every PC manufactures stuff gets dumped in the trash and terms into e-waste. If you want to talk about throwing stones in glass houses, this is it. PC's carbon footprint in environmentalism is far worse.and not a environmentally friendly one too.
This, absolutely THIS.The solution is to make products repairable, upgrade-able, and modular. Apple is doing none of that and is probably the worst offender. They don't because it isn't nearly as profitable.
We agree. My response: this is capitalism.This, absolutely THIS.
/thread
Cutting everything else out from your troll post, and outlining this for the mods to see.Great. And the worst offender here is still PC users. By volume. Start pointing the finger at every PC user in this place. Especially power users that upgrade their hardware yearly.
No, Apple practices corporatism, not capitalism.We agree. My response: this is capitalism.
Show me any company that isn't trying to get margin. I'll wait.
These are all businesses.
Great. I'm all for numbers. Show me the numbers. Everyone is still using their 2013 and 2014 iMacs, this is your big claim: so lets see all the people out here that are using these machines.You would be surprised at how much higher that percentage is, especially on the secondary and used markets.
Making a lot of assumptions without citing any sources, but if you do I will be more than happy to concede if you actually prove us wrong with facts and not personal opinions like you are doing now.
There isn't too much point responding to most of your post. It's not really even addressing anything that I've stated. It's a lot of "I know you are but what am I" and ironically as you stated that I'm out here insulting people and making assumptions you come out with this line more than once.Upgrading from acting like a technocrat fascist to a technocrat elitist I see!
My, how important your opinions are compared to us peasants' opinions - please tell us more oh wise one.
NO COMPANY DOES. The irony is that this is just the company for your to target and hate. It makes no difference if that company is Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, nVidia, AMD, TSMC. None of them care. But I think it's incredibly ironic that Apple is the worst.Yes, continuing support for computers by a multi-trillion dollar megacorp should be far more cost effective than you are leading on.
Siding with a megacorp that doesn't give two shits about you, like Apple values your support or something - boy do I have news for you...
Wow really? You apparently don't understand pure numbers. What I said is literally the case. If you're going to be upset at Apple then you should have an equal amount of anger for the vast majority of the user base that is contributing to the exact same thing.Cutting everything else out from your troll post, and outlining this for the mods to see.
No one asked you to participate in this thread, nor insult all of us for having a different opinion from your own.
If you hate this place and everyone in it so much, why don't you delete your account and go act like a technocrat fascist somewhere else.
I will be shocked if the mods don't straight up ban you after this, your posts and insults are deplorable and beyond disrespectful, and have added nothing to this discussion.
Okay. And that is different from Amazon, TSMC, Samsung, Microsoft, in what way?No, this is corporatism, not capitalism.
There is a difference, and while I am not getting into it outside of Soapbox, I would advise you to lookup the difference.
Correct, none of them care, though Apple does have the most slave labour out of them all, so yes, it is morally the worst.It makes no difference if that company is Amazon, Microsoft, Apple, Samsung, TSMC. None of them care. But I think it's incredibly ironic that Apple is the worst.
Save for TSMC and Samsung, they are all the same.Okay. And that is different from Amazon, TSMC, Samsung, Microsoft, in what way?
I wasn't the one who presented that, but as long as the equipment can be reused, recycled, or sold to someone who will use it, I don't see that as being a bad standard, and probably one that all cultures should embrace to make the most of what they have.If everything is about using everything as much as possible for the longest time possible then upgrading yearly is the worst possible thing you can do. That isn't the standard I've presented. That's the standard you've presented.
You'd have a really hard time proving that. Especially considering every PC part (and yes I'm including Apple hardware here) uses rare earth metals that also uses slave labor. Most metals include slave labor.Correct, none of them care, though Apple does have the most slave labour out of them all, so yes, it is morally the worst.
Samsung is one of the worst offenders ever. You should see how mega corps in general run Korea. If you want to see the definition of corporatism in action, it is in fact Samsung. They and other South Korean chaebols have been known to be untouchable at the government level for a very long time.Save for TSMC and Samsung, they are all the same.
If you're using a PC, (and again, since I apparently have to state, I'm including Apple in this) then you're screwed. To me, both of you are putting a lot of energy into "but on this side we're screwed less", when what I see is that it's really equal but different. Especially with the biggest option being Microsoft Windows, and ever creeping information and privacy theft. In terms of OS lesser evils, Windows 11 vs macOS, I know which side I'm on.There is a difference between yearning to make a profit with the best products and top competition, and trying to manipulate humanity itself through greed and power while quashing laws, morality, and better products by lesser companies.
Thanks for the handy chart. But to me every company that you'd call capitalistic will eventually want to become coporatistic. It's a spectrum. There isn't a line in the sand. If you (as a company) become big enough, make enough profit, then it quickly becomes about protecting your interests at the expense of everyone else. I've watched this happen dozens of times with nVidia as an example constantly creating its own standards to screw over non-nVidia users and grab hold of the market. Then there was GPP.Guess which side Apple, Microsoft, Amazon, etc. all fall under:
My position is we can't find numbers because there aren't any. But anyone using a 2013 iMac or 2014 iMac that is affected by this because it's their primary machine is free to drop a post. We can wait for all the Apple forums to light on fire. However just like every other transition to obsolescence which happens every year as new machines also come out every year, you won't find people out there with pitchforks. It's not to say you won't find any, but again, minorities are going to be a minority.Also, you were the first to make claims on all of the numbers, so why don't you educate us with your sources.
If I am wrong, I will be more than happy to admit it - will you be willing to do the same?
I agree with all of that.You'd have a really hard time proving that. Especially considering every PC part (and yes I'm including Apple hardware here) uses rare earth metals that also uses slave labor. Most metals include slave labor.
All of them use parts from Foxconn and/or assembly from Foxconn, which is the exact same as Apple. Slave labor.
All of them contain parts and hardware from Chinese manufacturers. Slave labor.
Nah, you brought it up first in your posts, so by all means have at it.You didn't address the rest of my points. But on this you'd have a hard time proving your position.
Apple also offshored tons of jobs from North America to China - you can add putting tons of capable people out of work in favour of slave labour.When it comes to PC vs Mac, it's 90% vs 10%. And iPhones to Android it's roughly the same percentages. Meaning again by volume the PC space is far worse. It's just Apple has a bigger target on their back because they're the most profitable company in the world and by percentage they're the largest. If every PC manufacturer could somehow be one company though, that companies track record especially by size and volume would be far worse. But no one pays attention to you if you're small.
But when you're the "big bad" you make the headlines.
I will give that one to you as well, agreed, and thanks for the video, that certainly helps.Samsung is one of the worse offenders ever. They have exposed people knowingly to toxic chemicals in Korea. Not even talking about not-domestic for them. You should see how mega corps in general run Korea. If you want to see the definition of corporatism in action, it is in fact Samsung. They have been known to be untouchable at the government level for a very long time.
They are virtually the same in regards to that, so outside of *NIX it really doesn't matter.If you're using a PC, (and again, since I apparently have to state, I'm including Apple in this) then you're screwed. To me, both of you are putting a lot of energy into "but on this side we're screwed less", when what I see is that it's really equal but different. Especially with the biggest option being Microsoft Windows, and ever creeping information and privacy theft. In terms of OS lesser evils, Windows 11 vs macOS, I know which side I'm on.
Linux is a bit more like Bob Dole - this is the term Bob Dole will win for sure!If you're on the Windows side great. But if you argue for Linux, you're like Ross Perot in 1992. A vast minority and a fraction of a percent. And while you can argue from that place for yourself that isn't ever going to be the position of general users. There is a far greater likelihood of general users moving to ChromeOS and having Google get all of your data before Linux becomes a major player for home/office users.
Disagreed on this, the line is good and evil.Thanks for the handy chart. But to me every company that you'd call capitalistic will eventually want to become coporatistic. It's a spectrum. There isn't a line in the sand.
Agreed, though each nation were supposed to implement laws in order to prevent this.If you (as a company) become big enough, make enough profit, then it quickly becomes about protecting your interests at the expense of everyone else. I've watched this happen dozens of times with nVidia as an example constantly creating its own standards to screw over non-nVidia users and grab hold of the market. Then there was GPP.
It is the dark cyberpunk future, so I would suggest all three of us sit down and have a cold one since we are all in this together.The reality is much closer to both of us being screwed if you care.
If there aren't any numbers, then how do you know for sure.My position is we can't find numbers because there aren't any. But anyone using a 2013 iMac or 2014 iMac that is affected by this because it's their primary machine is free to drop a post. We can wait for all the Apple forums to light on fire. However just like every other transition to obsolescence which happens every year as new machines also come out every year, you won't find people out there with pitchforks. It's not to say you won't find any, but again, minorities are going to be a minority.
There is basically no PC production at all in the US. Intel and AMD have started to bring back some chip production here, but in terms of basically all the other hardware we're talking about it's all in China. Apple's processors are made by TSMC, so processor wise it's a wash.Apple also offshored tons of jobs from North America to China - you can add putting tons of capable people out of work in favour of slave labour.
This was all under Steve Jobs as well, which makes my first post all the more painful.
I disagree here. Apple has fought for privacy on numerous occasions with visible results that have helped users. The most obvious recent case is making it so Facebook couldn't track their users outside of the app and broke their ability to track everything. And we know they were successful because it punched Facebook's bottom line with advertisers in the gut. This has happened repeatedly that goes beyond lip service.They are virtually the same in regards to that, so outside of *NIX it really doesn't matter.
I would agree. Except to me I'd categorize every megacorp then as evil. And for the purposes of our discussion (when we're talking about all of these PC manufacturers) it's the same thing.Disagreed on this, the line is good and evil.
Any grey-zone is just subterfuge for the latter.
Some places do better than others. It's less of an issue in Europe. At least in Europe a lot of the laws generated by the EU and also in individual member countries are about protecting the interests of their people. Even if met with other problems.Agreed, though each nation were supposed to implement laws in order to prevent this.
I guess each nation just ignores said laws in favour of kickbacks and bribes to let said largecorps become megacorps and do whatever they want to theirpeasantscustomers.
Even as a believer in Jesus I'd say it's hard to try and state any given company is purely good. And since you don't see shades of grey, then by default they're evil. It's pretty hard to say that any company is purely evil. Because as one example you're going to have good people working for bad companies and vice versa. It's not an episode of Captain Planet in which some guy literally just has pollution machines just to be a dick. By definition they are offering utility which people either want or need. If they didn't or weren't they wouldn't have anything that people would be giving all of their money towards.Again, good and evil.
I play devils advocate, I'm not necessarily on or not on anyone elses side. But I'll be honest with you it annoys me when people pile on to one company and don't do the same to others in equal measure. I guess you could say hypocrisy is my button. And to be fair to all those involved including pointing the finger at myself, we're all hypocrits about something or to some degree. But I think it should be a collective human goal to be least amount possible.It is the dark cyberpunk future, so I would suggest all three of us sit down and have a cold one since we are all in this together.
Insults aren't the point, they're punctuation to shake people off of podiums. But I also wouldn't say that any of my negative statements were designed to be 'personal'. I don't know you or DNX, I'm not going to talk about your mom's. If you took any of it personally, I'm sorry.Would have been a much better discussion if things had started off with dialog like this instead of insults.
I've known several people throughout the years that have used obsoleted Mac's. And again, I don't say that they don't exist. Just that it's a minority. We can know this at least in part through implication of hardware sales. I personally haven't seen sigs with a bunch of obsoleted Macs in them. But I tend to not look at sigs that often. I'd be willing to be wrong in the case that anyone has numbers as well.If there aren't any numbers, then how do you know for sure.
Considering how many individuals I know who are still using numerous iMacs, desktops, and laptops from nearly a decade ago or more, and in sigs on here, it would seem to suggest the opposite is true.
Again though, if you can provide a source with numbers on it then I am willing to consider the alternative.
Prove me wrong.*Opinions
Some people do buy entirely new PC's, but most just upgrade a GPU. You can't do that with laptops in general, but at least the SSD and ram is usually upgradable. You can upgrade the motherboard if you so choose to in laptops. Apple's latest products won't even swap Apple parts with Apple parts without it being software locked.Great. And the worst offender here is still PC users. By volume. Start pointing the finger at every PC user in this place. Especially power users that upgrade their hardware yearly.
I literally just repaired my washing machine. I used this video. Pretty sure a washing machine is an appliance. So where's that hill?While that is partially true it isn't the entire picture. What you don't like is computers that are designed to be appliances. And it's your hill to die on. Because we don't have this series conversations about washing machines, refrigerators, microwaves.
Affecting less people isn't an excuse to be shit. Just because a lot of people aren't doing it, doesn't mean they are ok with it.PC manufacturers are also doing this exact same thing in their space. Namely around laptops. The amount of people this is affecting is small.
Lots of people are going to find out how much their time is actually worth soon. Valve pays a good deal of the Linux community to work on Linux. Apple is worth more than Valve so how is aren't they willing to pay to support older hardware?The Linux community pays no one. Because their time is worthless.
These web browsers will refuse to install on outdated machines eventually. I know I've tried.That takes a very long time. In terms of browsers and support that takes forever. Especially because browsers such as Firefox and Chrome exist.
You are what it is. That's why I said you're throwing stones from a glass house.Just telling it like it is. Sorry that it tastes bad going down.
Which PC? With laptops it isn't too different from Apple, but that really depends on the manufacturer. Most laptop PC's can have their storage and ram replaced while on the M1/M2's have that soldered on. If your SSD fails in your M1/M2 laptop, then it is trash. With desktops being based on the ATX standard very little is wated. PSU fails? Replace it for $60. GPU fails? Replace it. CPU fails? Replace it. If anything fails on a Mac you replace the Mac. The difference now is that when Apple stops supporting software then you might as well put it in the trash, or give it to Apple who will likely put it in the trash.You harp on this while every PC manufactures stuff gets dumped in the trash and terms into e-waste. If you want to talk about throwing stones in glass houses, this is it. PC's carbon footprint in environmentalism is far worse.
For the second time, show me any major PC manufacturer with a better environmental score card. I'm still waiting. Show me.
Prove yourself right.Prove me wrong.
And?Some people do buy entirely new PC's, but most just upgrade a GPU. You can't do that with laptops in general, but at least the SSD and ram is usually upgradable. You can upgrade the motherboard if you so choose to in laptops. Apple's latest products won't even swap Apple parts with Apple parts without it being software locked.
I literally just repaired my washing machine. I used this video. Pretty sure a washing machine is an appliance. So where's that hill?
That's fine. DNX, be angry for machines you don't buy or use. Be angry for people who don't care. Every person who is filling Apple's pockets is just soooo upset about all of this stuff.Affecting less people isn't an excuse to be shit. Just because a lot of people aren't doing it, doesn't mean they are ok with it.
What are you talking about? SteamOS supports incredibly limited hardware:Lots of people are going to find out how much their time is actually worth soon. Valve pays a good deal of the Linux community to work on Linux. Apple is worth more than Valve so how is aren't they willing to pay to support older hardware?
Sure. And by then we're talking about hardware that's obsolete on obsolete.These web browsers will refuse to install on outdated machines eventually. I know I've tried.
I'm okay inside of reality. Apparently you aren't.You are what it is. That's why I said you're throwing stones from a glass house.
Pick a manufacturer. Carte blanche. Your best case scenario.Which PC?
Okay, this position literally doesn't make sense. Here, let me spell it out for you: 100% of computer hardware will become trash. Talking about replacing parts of hardware is a band-aid. Here's another tidbit, eventually no matter the hardware it becomes obsolete to run daily tasks. Your line in the sand is just different than mine but there is zero argument you can say here about that "not being true". There is zero hardware that's 30 years old being used by anyone in this forum that is running any modern relevant task. There are no machines outside of vintage toys that are 20 years old. Guess where all those machines went? The trash. So talking about replacement parts still means this stuff ends up in the trash. All of those SSD's that failed? The trash. The ATX power supplies that failed? The trash. GPU's that failed? The trash. PC's being so great because they aren't being recycled but still going in the trash is not a good environmental argument. All of it is being turned into e-waste.With laptops it isn't too different from Apple, but that really depends on the manufacturer. Most laptop PC's can have their storage and ram replaced while on the M1/M2's have that soldered on. If your SSD fails in your M1/M2 laptop, then it is trash. With desktops being based on the ATX standard very little is wated. PSU fails? Replace it for $60. GPU fails? Replace it. CPU fails? Replace it.
Or you know, take it to a service center like a normal person and get it repaired.If anything fails on a Mac you replace the Mac.
You don't even feel this way. Just install Linux, or Windows, or OpenCore on it as you've said numerous times. Except you'll find 99.9% won't do this as we've discussed multiple times. Because we wealthy 1%ers flip our hardware significantly faster than that (as in all of us who have the privilege of living in the west). I'm not saying this because we some how are "superior". I'm saying this simply as a fact.The difference now is that when Apple stops supporting software then you might as well put it in the trash,
Apple uses recycled materials and recycles its own materials close looping a large percentage of their hardware. They have a massive recycling center in Texas just for this purpose. No PC manufacturer is doing this. And considering PC's are 90% of the market they're the ones doing all of the damage: because that's how numbers work. It's good to see how much of your positions are based on opinion rather than any form of reality or fact.or give it to Apple who will likely put it in the trash.
This isn't an opinion. You can repair washing machines which is an appliance. Me fixing an old washing machine is still better than trashing it. Buying a new replacement no matter how advanced it is, will still have a greater carbon footprint than just repairing or continuing to use an older product. Being correct isn't a popularity contest. If people aren't doing it then that's on them. Our job as nerds (and yes you're one of them) is to make it easier for people to do it.Good for you? You know how you keep arguing about how "my experiences/opinions aren't the world?" Yeah, this is one of those cases. No one is doing this.
Valve literally gives you the 3D design to 3D print replacement parts. It doesn't get more repairable then that.Let me know how much you can repair a Steam Deck. Even they know that building custom "standard" PC's is a worthless pursuit. They got 90% of the way there and then scrapped the project. It's way more likely all of their hardware is custom with barely user replaceable anything.
I fix it by installing an updated OS like Linux.Sure. And by then we're talking about hardware that's obsolete on obsolete.
You saying that contradicts it.I'm okay inside of reality. Apparently you aren't.
Computers don't age like they used to. Because of this reason, software is pretty much the best way to make something obsolete. This is harder for PC because of all the choices there is for software. Devices like the M1's, iOS, and Android devices are far more likely to be obsolete through software. My 2012 Macbook Air has a 256 GB SSD. The modern Apple Mackbook Air's are still sold with 256GB SSD's.Here, let me spell it out for you: 100% of computer hardware will become trash.
You need to look up the Ship of Theseus. If we somehow standardize laptops like with desktops then you can indefinitely upgrade it. If you want to fight pollution then I would force all laptop manufacturers to require upgradable and replaceable parts but pushing for a standard. Like the power adapters for Apple's iOS devices when they refused to use USB-C.Talking about replacing parts of hardware is a band-aid. Here's another tidbit, eventually no matter the hardware it becomes obsolete to run daily tasks.
Cars, houses, washing machines, refrigerators.Your line in the sand is just different than mine but there is zero argument you can say here about that "not being true". There is zero hardware that's 30 years old being used by anyone in this forum that is running any modern relevant task.
You replaced computers far more faster back then too because technology advanced more quickly.There are no machines outside of vintage toys that are 20 years old. Guess where all those machines went? The trash.
Well yes but they can be replaced. Also they can technically be repaired.So talking about replacement parts still means this stuff ends up in the trash. All of those SSD's that failed? The trash.
The idea is that you don't trash the entire PC. Still better to repair it than to replace the entire unit. Just because everything will end up in the trash doesn't mean we should speed up the process. Not responding to the rest of your wall of text because less trash is better for the environment. An elementary student can understand this concept. Less trash is less, and there's no such thing as carbon neutral.The ATX power supplies that failed? The trash. GPU's that failed? The trash. PC's being so great because they aren't being recycled but still going in the trash is not a good environmental argument. All of it is being turned into e-waste.
Okay. Convince 99.9999% of the population about this. For some reason you think this is about convincing me. That isn't what the world is doing.This isn't an opinion. You can repair washing machines which is an appliance. Me fixing an old washing machine is still better than trashing it. Buying a new replacement no matter how advanced it is, will still have a greater carbon footprint than just repairing or continuing to use an older product. Being correct isn't a popularity contest. If people aren't doing it then that's on them. Our job as nerds (and yes you're one of them) is to make it easier for people to do it.
Your entire discussion is predicated around the hardware. Good goal post moving. You can't replace any of the major hardware. Tell me how to replace the CPU or GPU in the Steam Deck. Or the motherboard. I'll wait.Valve literally gives you the 3D design to 3D print replacement parts. It doesn't get more repairable then that.
I fix it by installing an updated OS like Linux.
"I know you are but what am I?"You saying that contradicts it.
K.Computers don't age like they used to. Because of this reason, software is pretty much the best way to make something obsolete. This is harder for PC because of all the choices there is for software. Devices like the M1's, iOS, and Android devices are far more likely to be obsolete through software. My 2012 Macbook Air has a 256 GB SSD. The modern Apple Mackbook Air's are still sold with 256GB SSD's.
I don't need to look it up.You need to look up the Ship of Theseus. If we somehow standardize laptops like with desktops then you can indefinitely upgrade it. If you want to fight pollution then I would force all laptop manufacturers to require upgradable and replaceable parts but pushing for a standard.
Lightning has existed since before USB-C. Them continuing to use that standard has actually lessened e-waste. Especially according to you which has stated again and again that using things for the longest period of time is the best thing for e-waste. You can't have it both ways. Either things need to be updated or they don't.Like the power adapters for Apple's iOS devices when they refused to use USB-C.
Computers, which computers? You change the subject constantly. There is ZERO computer hardware that is 30 years old that is remotely relevant. There isn't even 20 year old PC hardware that is relevant either. You win in your own mind because you have to bend discussions to such a degree that it's not even relevant or what I was talking about.Cars, houses, washing machines, refrigerators.
And? 2013 iMac's had dual core i5's. The current iMac has an M1. We're talking about multiple levels of magnitude in computing power difference. But as we've discussed you can't tell the difference.You replaced computers far more faster back then too because technology advanced more quickly.
Well yes but they can be replaced. Also they can technically be repaired.
Great. Now again convince EVERYONE on the planet that they should stop doing full system replacements every 3-5 years. Again, you think this is about convincing me when it's about changing consumer behavior. Apple's model works because it's based around the consumers they serve. So all of the arguments you have about upgrading longer than 7 years is vassal when pretty much everyone on this forum regardless of if it's piece by piece or all at once, they're all replacing all of their hardware on average every 4 years. And this isn't even getting into the discussion that a majority of hardware that consumers buy is laptops with non-replaceable parts. Which as it turns out the user base whether on PC or Mac side doesn't care about.The idea is that you don't trash the entire PC. Still better to repair it than to replace the entire unit. Just because everything will end up in the trash doesn't mean we should speed up the process. Not responding to the rest of your wall of text because less trash is better for the environment. An elementary student can understand this concept. Less trash is less, and there's no such thing as carbon neutral.
Show me the PC manufacturers doing better. Hold everyone to the same standard. But you won't.
Ah, this is not entirely true.That doesn't work. You want to know why it doesn't work? Because standards keep changing. Just in 20 years PCI isn't a thing, ISA, isn't a thing, AGP, we've gone through a dozen sockets, and just as many ports. VGA isn't relevant. Heck, HDMI standards, half of them aren't relevant. MXM wasn't successful and it's can't be. We've had SIMM, DIMM, DDR 1-5. Computers aren't boats. You can't replace them piece by piece.
I don't disagree with your points here, but for the purposes of building a universal standard machine it's not relevant. As I cheekily brought up a Tandy 486 could never be upgraded piece by piece to be a modern machine. At some point the motherboard, CPU, and RAM will all have to be changed at once because there are too many differences.Ah, this is not entirely true.
There are quite a few ancient pieces of legacy and proprietary equipment still afloat with PCI, ISA, VGA, etc. - those are all still relevant in some shape or form, even shockingly so.
The only one you listed that is truly obsolete and gone is AGP since it was used exclusively with graphics processors.
While the above technologies obviously should have been phased out years ago, doing so on legacy equipment or proprietary equipment is sometimes financially difficult to near impossible.
VGA continues to popup more often than I ever want, and while workstations are replaced monitors, however, are not.
I can't tell you how many HDMI-to-VGA and DP-to-VGA adapters I install, and it is ludicrous, but the bottom line is cost efficiency.
On the bleeding edge and even modern edge, of course you are correct that these now-ancient standards are all gone, but somehow they continue to live on and I know it isn't just me who continues to have to deal with them as they do.
While standard computers, workstations, servers, etc. may be replaced on a standardized basis of 3-5 years, their peripherals are not, and sometimes those peripherals are what demand those legacy technologies to continue to exist.
As for the HDMI standards, HDMI is backwards compatible and not every new peripheral needs HDMI 2.0+ to function, so that one is a bit out there unless we are talking bleeding edge.
Retrocomputing is fun, but when it shows up professionally that tells me that these old technologies have not gone out of this world completely, and if I am seeing them on a semi-regular basis, I can only imagine what everyone else comes across.
Hell, USA banking systems are still using equipment from the 1960s and 1970s on the very back-end with COBOL and Fortran, and to replace those financial systems could cost billions of USD and take decades, so it is financially easier to pay premiums to hire new employees to code in COBOL and Fortran for these truly ancient systems.
However, one day those workers who are in charge of these systems (who are now 80+ easily) are going to be gone, and that old-world legacy knowledge will be gone... time to pony up.
As we've talked about before with the dark cyberpunk future, for better or worse we're stuck with Samsung. They make our RAM, they're involved as a foundry for IC's. They make a lion's share of the display market. They are the smart phone leader.On a side note, I watched the video you posted about Samsung and how it destroyed so many people's lives.
It was truly heartbreaking, and my respect goes entirely to Yumi's dad who fought such an evil corporation and those in power to give her some peace.
Thank you very much for sharing that, everyone here should watch it and know exactly what Samsung is.
Imagine if an eight-year-old Dell desktop's mainboard failed; would you scream at Dell because it didn't have stocks of that mainboard hanging around just in case?
Yes but by the time a PC is trashed entirely, it would be several years. By the time the M1's SSD's fail and you inevitably trash the entire machine because you can't replace soldered SSD's, is much sooner. What Apple is doing by not supporting older Macs is pushing for perfectly working hardware to be trashed much sooner. That's why people like Louis Rossmann made a carrier out of repairing Macs because not everyone wants to trash thousands of dollars PC in favor of buying a new one. A PC being trash is inevitable but by the time you trash a single PC, you would have bought 2 Macs.Okay, this position literally doesn't make sense. Here, let me spell it out for you: 100% of computer hardware will become trash.
Yea because in 30 years we went from "640K ought to be enough for anybody" to PC's equipped with gigabytes of ram. But PC's don't evolve like they used to. Go back 10 years and the average PC had 4GB of ram, which you can upgrade. Go back 20 years and people were happy with 512MB of ram. Go back 30 and 640K ought to be enough. Modern M2's still come with 8GB of ram, which is the same amount the PS4 came with in 2013. People today can use a Core2Duo for daily tasks without issue. Now if you play games or do video editing, that's a different story.Talking about replacing parts of hardware is a band-aid. Here's another tidbit, eventually no matter the hardware it becomes obsolete to run daily tasks. Your line in the sand is just different than mine but there is zero argument you can say here about that "not being true". There is zero hardware that's 30 years old being used by anyone in this forum that is running any modern relevant task.
Or fix it.GPU's that failed? The trash.
Lets look at valve's hardware survey to see what people do use on average. This is gaming so you're more likely to upgrade than someone who does spreadsheets and watches YouTube. Almost half are currently using 4 cores or 2 cores CPU's, which is safe to say isn't very modern. The GTX 1060 is still the most popular GPU, as well as a good number of GTX cards which are currently 6 years old. So for gaming there's a lot of people still using relatively old hardware. Imagine what people are using when they don't care about gaming or intensive tasks?A huge part of your argument comes down to "everyone uses their computers for longer than 7 years" and support windows shorter than that means a massive multiplication in e-waste.
Want to know why I think this? Because the only one with pitchforks out here are people like you white knighting: literally people not buying new Apple hardware.
PC's also make up for more than 90% of sales, and that's including servers.From pure numbers PC's are worse (90% vs 10%). From recycling, PC's are worse.
This is deceptive. The whole point of your upgrade piece by piece mentality and your whole ship metaphor is that in actually you're still buying two PC's. You're just doing it part by part vs all at once. It's pretty deceptive to say that isn't the case. And I spent a huge amount of time already showing the customer behavior. Enthusiasts are replacing every part in their machine whether all at once or part by part on average every 4 years. The mega hobbyiests are doing it in less than 2 years. That is in fact the same rate as you would be buying an equivalent Mac. Your upgrade "part by part" ideology is a false dichotomy. This is the consumer behavior. Either way you're buying two machines.Yes but by the time a PC is trashed entirely, it would be several years. By the time the M1's SSD's fail and you inevitably trash the entire machine because you can't replace soldered SSD's, is much sooner. What Apple is doing by not supporting older Macs is pushing for perfectly working hardware to be trashed much sooner. That's why people like Louis Rossmann made a carrier out of repairing Macs because not everyone wants to trash thousands of dollars PC in favor of buying a new one. A PC being trash is inevitable but by the time you trash a single PC, you would have bought 2 Macs.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxg-zl_qnPWUwBmTmBHkX7aA3x-o4n5UCw
All of those number counts are based around "good enough" vs what power users are doing. For editing >4k material, Davinci Resolve recommends at minimum 64GB of RAM. What is good enough and what is required still keeps going up. The difference between a 4090 and a 3090 is is >60% gains.Yea because in 30 years we went from "640K ought to be enough for anybody" to PC's equipped with gigabytes of ram. But PC's don't evolve like they used to. Go back 10 years and the average PC had 4GB of ram, which you can upgrade. Go back 20 years and people were happy with 512MB of ram. Go back 30 and 640K ought to be enough.
This again is HIGHLY deceptive. To say that 8GB or RAM is 8GB of RAM isn't really true when one is embedded at the chip level and can essentially operate like 8GB of cache and the other are separate chips with much higher latency.Modern M2's still come with 8GB of ram, which is the same amount the PS4 came with in 2013.
Maybe Grandma can. I have a C2D mini on my desk next to me. I don't even want to browse on this. If your time is absolutely worthless, then yeah it's fine.People today can use a Core2Duo for daily tasks without issue.
Or use Google Chrome. Which can use 32+ GB of RAM. Or again, do any task in a reasonable time frame. I have access to another C2D in my house. Thankfully retired. To say that it's unpleasant to even use Hotmail and Facebook on would be an understatement. And that was basically all it was used for.Now if you play games or do video editing, that's a different story.
Or fix it.
https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurveyLets look at valve's hardware survey to see what people do use on average. This is gaming so you're more likely to upgrade than someone who does spreadsheets and watches YouTube. Almost half are currently using 4 cores or 2 cores CPU's, which is safe to say isn't very modern. The GTX 1060 is still the most popular GPU,
In the top 60% of cards there is no card that is older than 4 years other than the 1060. In the top 70% the only card that shows up is the RX580 and RX570 which account for less than 1.5% of users when combined. I'll also note that even that card just barely came out over 5 years ago. With the 1060 included it's still less than 10%. Any card that is older than 6 years is less than half of a percentage point, and even adding them altogether accounts for less than 5% of users. With the 1060 included maybe 14%. Feel free to check my math. Show me all the cards by their percentages that are so much older than 6 years though.as well as a good number of GTX cards which are currently 6 years old. So for gaming there's a lot of people still using relatively old hardware.
Corporate flips their hardware every 3 years. Small businesses every 3-5.Imagine what people are using when they don't care about gaming or intensive tasks?
PC's also make up for more than 90% of sales, and that's including servers.
Yes but in a much longer period of time. The rate of trash is going to be much slower.This is deceptive. The whole point of your upgrade piece by piece mentality and your whole ship metaphor is that in actually you're still buying two PC's. You're just doing it part by part vs all at once.
Enthusiasts and mega hobbyists are not the majority. Most people on Steams Hardware survey are not upgrading their entire machines. If you're using a quad core or dual core CPU then you're 50% of the gamers on Steam. If you're using a GTX card, you're 50% of the gamers on Steam.Enthusiasts are replacing every part in their machine whether all at once or part by part on average every 4 years. The mega hobbyiests are doing it in less than 2 years. That is in fact the same rate as you would be buying an equivalent Mac.
The math doesn't check out.Either way you're buying two machines.
Because everyone buys Apple care. Meanwhile in Europe they require a minimum of 2 years warranty.Secondly as we've seen in this thread Applecare coverage can be bought for 3 years. Software coverage is for 7 years. And repairs on all of those machines will have parts availability up to 7 years. Meaning all machines that require parts could be kept at minimum 7 years if you so desire with guaranteed software support. Just because YOU can't repair a Mac doesn't mean it goes in the trash either.
Neither can I, but you can send it out to these people and they will fix it.You talk about fixing your own video cards. No average user can do that,
Because Apple has a great history of repairing their products. Just make sure when you buy an Apple product that it was made by Apple.but all of them can take their hardware to a service center and get a fully operable machine in a reasonable time frame. In fact if people are capable of repairing a GPU, then they can fix a Mac. If that's your logic then problem solved.
Or more likely is that Apple is using the SSD to speed up applications on 8GB models with swap, and is wearing them out faster.Using a machine in 2022 with <16GB of RAM is painful for all but the most minimal and basic tasks. If you use Chrome I would say an 8GB machine is unusable. The M1 8GB is basically only usable NOT because 8GB is enough, but effectively because it's memory sub system and ability to cache to the harddrive is so fast that Apple could cheat extra performance that no PC without a custom ASIC and software can match.
I made a quick mention of Apple including only 8GB of ram in 2022 and you made a whole useless article about it. Moving on.And similarly I would say no PC should be equipped with 8GB of RAM in 2022. Honestly I don't even think the M1/M2 should be equipped with 8GB of RAM in 2022.
If you're comparing a modern Apple product to the PS4's inability to upgrade ram, you are really reaching here.This is also ignoring that you can buy an M2 with 24GB of RAM. You can't buy a PS4 with 24GB of RAM.
Keep in mind that the average PC users would just replace the card. Repairing is just the cheaper option. Apple though will fight to make sure repair shops can't have access to certain parts to repair Apple products. Apple is not a green company when they do stuff like this.If you can fix a GPU like this, then you can fix a Mac. So problem solved then I guess! There should be ZERO complaints about "user replaceable parts" when your standard for component repair and replacement is this video.
Why does this matter? They should be if they wanted to keep their broken GPU. This isn't a popularity contest.Again, no one is doing this. Show me all the users here on the [H]ardforum, arguably the biggest computing nerds on the planet, that are doing this. Maybe 5?
The most used core count processor is actually "6" at greater than 35%. If you look at both 2 core and 4 core cpu's combined that's roughly 30% of the market.
Does the world not matter to you?Steam hardware survey is also global. Meaning the lower end hardware is likely also skewed depending on location. I would bet if we only included the US and Europe the survey would skew to even newer hardware.
You keep trying to talk down to me like I don't use or have never used PCs.
I've outlined this twice. And you haven't read it twice. That's not what the market is doing.Yes but in a much longer period of time. The rate of trash is going to be much slower.
Thank your finally acknowledging this. Which is why your dumb boat metaphor doesn’t work. Most people NEVER upgrade or repair their desktop PC in either RAM, CPU, or video card. The fact that the option exists for them to do so irrelevant if 90%+ never even open the side of their case.Enthusiasts and mega hobbyists are not the majority.
As you just layed out above, they are not the norm.Most people on Steams Hardware survey are not upgrading their entire machines.
I outlined this math already. And you're not. They're slightly north of 37%. And I'd bet it's mostly laptops in 2022, not desktops. And again, it's a global survey and not a reflection of the US and Europe or Japan.If you're using a quad core or dual core CPU then you're 50% of the gamers on Steam.
Well, probably more than that, the top 50% of cards are all 100% nVidia.If you're using a GTX card, you're 50% of the gamers on Steam.
Except it does? I literally broke down half a dozen link that you ignored bringing up both buyer behavior AND the suggestion of professionals.The math doesn't check out.
They don't have to. The point is you can fix your machine for a minimum of 7 years. That isn't in dispute.Because everyone buys Apple care. Meanwhile in Europe they require a minimum of 2 years warranty.
Great, sounds exactly like Apple.Neither can I, but you can send it out to these people and they will fix it.
Because Apple has a great history of repairing their products. Just make sure when you buy an Apple product that it was made by Apple.
Or more likely is that Apple is using the SSD to speed up applications on 8GB models with swap, and is wearing them out faster.
Because it's relevant to your position that computing hasn't' moved forward in a decade. And that's a lie. Comparing a PS3 and an M1 was also incredibly dumb. But yeah, moving on.I made a quick mention of Apple including only 8GB of ram in 2022 and you made a whole useless article about it. Moving on.
Your argument again is predicated on what is necessary for people in 2022. And as we've illustrated 2-3 times above it's more than 8GB.If you're comparing a modern Apple product to the PS4's inability to upgrade ram, you are really reaching here.
And then that graphics card ends up in the trash. You take your machine to Apple and they repair it. And the Apple parts get recycled in Texas. Which is way more green than any PC.Keep in mind that the average PC users would just replace the card. Repairing is just the cheaper option. Apple though will fight to make sure repair shops can't have access to certain parts to repair Apple products. Apple is not a green company when they do stuff like this.
Okay. So people can keep their broken Macs. What are you even arguing here? What is your point?Why does this matter? They should be if they wanted to keep their broken GPU. This isn't a popularity contest.
It clearly doesn't matter to you. You prefer PC manufacturers causing all the problems, not being green, throwing hardware in the trash, not holding any of them to any standards and then hypocritically expecting a company that is <10% of the market to be better even when they already are.Does the world not matter to you?
Using memes rather than having a discussion is a good way to show that your argument doesn't have merit. This doesn't address any of the issues in your arguments, nor does it say anything to counter any of mine.