Germany Mulls Ban On After-Hours Work Emails And Calls

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Germany wants to ban after-hours e-mail and calls. Still perfectly fine with spam and telemarketers. :p

Now a ban on office communications in the evening and during vacation time could even become law. German labor minister Andrea Nahles said in a Tuesday interview that the Federal Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (BAuA) was consulting on how such a law could be made – what thresholds would need to be mandated, and so on. She said the first results were expected in 2015.
 

wabbitseason

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"Hey guys: Let's fuck with the system that's made us the most competitive country in Europe, by going far left and emulating our foolish Southern friends!"
 

TwistedAegis

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Considering they already have a minimum of 25 days holiday for small businesses and 30 for large, somehow they manage to still be competitive. ;) Would love to see that in the US.
 

WhyYouLoveMe

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Hey if they need any help enforcing this insanity I know a certain alphabet organization that's really good at it here in the US.
 
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I like this idea. People need to take a break every once in a while. I wish I was alive back when places weren't allowed to be open on Sundays. Taking a day off should mean actually relaxing. Its healthy.
 

kindasmart

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Considering they already have a minimum of 25 days holiday for small businesses and 30 for large, somehow they manage to still be competitive. ;) Would love to see that in the US.

With more time off people would have even more time to buy some useless shit they don't need. That would help the economy.

/snark
 

M'ichal

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It's not always about working harder and longer but smarter.

Exactly.

People need to chill more instead of leading hectic lifestyles that revolve entirely about work. Working after hours needs to become exception again, not the norm.

Such law, if implemented, needs to make it to NA ASAP.
 

kbrickley

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It only hurts their competitiveness but Germany was never a threat to the top three economies in the world (USA, China, Japan) who would never do something so stupid ... I believe work life balance is between the company and its employees ... if you don't like the balance with your employer then you should find another job, not make the government regulate it ... we need fewer government regulations, not more ;)
 

TwistedAegis

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I don't know, we need smarter government regulation, not more/less. Gov't regulation got rid of child labor, helped institute the 40-hour work week, etc.

Right now worker productivity is continuing to increase on its historical trend, but the income gains are no longer going to the workers, but top management/shareholders only.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/...rt-productivity-hourly-compensation-620xa.gif

Right now with the oligopoly we have, employers all create similar hiring standards and policies that make finding a different employer that has meaningfully different policies somewhat difficult. And then you have private collusion like you see with Google, Apple, Intel, etc.
 

mesyn191

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if you don't like the balance with your employer then you should find another job, not make the government regulate it ...
Unless nearly all employers are calling/emailing their employees after work hours. Then yes that is a problem that might need govt. regulation since it'd be a industry wide issue. Particularly if you aren't getting paid for your time dealing with those emails/calls. Which most people aren't.

we need fewer government regulations, not more ;)
You're grossly ignorant of history if you believe this. History is loaded with examples of govt. with few regulations (aka laissez faire style economics) and it sucked to live during those time periods since it was normal for the boss to use and abuse the workers. You only have to go back ~100 yr or so too, we're not talking about medieval times where nearly all workers were serfs and were considered practically disposable.
 

M'ichal

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Unless nearly all employers are calling/emailing their employees after work hours. Then yes that is a problem that might need govt. regulation since it'd be a industry wide issue. Particularly if you aren't getting paid for your time dealing with those emails/calls. Which most people aren't.


You're grossly ignorant of history if you believe this. History is loaded with examples of govt. with few regulations (aka laissez faire style economics) and it sucked to live during those time periods since it was normal for the boss to use and abuse the workers. You only have to go back ~100 yr or so too, we're not talking about medieval times where nearly all workers were serfs and were considered practically disposable.

And add to this China, the great world power economy, where people live in factory cities or jump off buildings for being overworked. But they should've found different employers. Great example...

If you want another one, there's South Korea, also doing really well, while having some of the longest work-hours amongst the first-world countries.
 

mesyn191

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Japan has ridiculous work hours as well if you want another modern example but their productivity isn't any better and most Japanese hate it but have no options since its the 'corporate culture' of all workplaces there to have employees work after hours and not get paid for it.



If you try to buck the trend and don't come in or work after hours for free then you get fired and/or harassed by management.
 

kbrickley

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Unless nearly all employers are calling/emailing their employees after work hours. Then yes that is a problem that might need govt. regulation since it'd be a industry wide issue. Particularly if you aren't getting paid for your time dealing with those emails/calls. Which most people aren't.


You're grossly ignorant of history if you believe this. History is loaded with examples of govt. with few regulations (aka laissez faire style economics) and it sucked to live during those time periods since it was normal for the boss to use and abuse the workers. You only have to go back ~100 yr or so too, we're not talking about medieval times where nearly all workers were serfs and were considered practically disposable.

There are ways ... work for a small company that only has a local presence ... you might not make as much but you will run into less overtime and afterhours requirements ... however, for those of us that work for multinational companies, we often have colleagues in Asia or Europe or both ... sometimes the need to stay in communication with them or facilitate projects requires after hours work ... working for a multinational is a choice though, if one can't live with those requirements there are other companies

As to the pay for after hours that is relative ... most professional workers are salary workers and do not receive overtime ... if they expect us to work longer hours or in higher stress situations that is usually reflected in our salaries ... I travel a lot for my job ... it is inconvenient sometimes and requires me to travel on Saturdays or Sundays (cutting into my free time) ... but that is part of the job expectation

We could ask the government to regulate work hours, like France, where no one can work more than 35 hours a week (and take the corresponding hit in our salaries), or we can man up and find jobs that have a work environment we are comfortable in (without requiring government interference)
 
D

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And add to this China, the great world power economy, where people live in factory cities or jump off buildings for being overworked. But they should've found different employers. Great example...

If you want another one, there's South Korea, also doing really well, while having some of the longest work-hours amongst the first-world countries.

I work longer hours than those at the Foxconn factories. Also, the people who work at these locations have far better lives than most of the other people in the country, you can not compare working life and style to other more well off countries, they are one of the better paying places to work and is why when they have a hiring day they often have up to 100k people waiting outside for a chance to get a job. Also, suicide rate there is far higher than most places in the world, yet the people who work at the factories have a far lower suicide rate than the rest of the country. It is easy to hate, do I think the companies care about who works for them? To a point, but not really for the most part, however because some bad things happen, making assumptions that somehow their life would be better without a job or money or a place to sleep would somehow be better than working for this company is just ignorant.
 

mesyn191

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There are ways ... work for a small company that only has a local presence
Hahahah have you ever worked for a small company?! I have and they're even worse than the big ones when it comes to stuff like this. On top of that they tend to screw with your paycheck and PTO hours constantly while paying -MUCH- less. Working for big corps suck but at least they don't pull that crap.

Also 'industry wide' means its something that even small companies do. Seriously. There is nowhere to 'run' to here in this modern era of cheap and ubiquitous smartphones and PC's.

And why the heck is it all up to the employee to sacrifice his standard of living and/or time to try and find a good work place? Shouldn't employers be held up to certain standards too? Especially since they have most of the bargaining power and options vs workers and so should be more responsible too?

most professional workers are salary workers and do not receive overtime
After hours/off time work is often expected of wage earners who are most of the work force. The article isn't just about salaried labor.

or we can man up and find jobs that have a work environment we are comfortable in (without requiring government interference)
If an issue is industry wide then 'manning up and find somewhere else to work' is practically impossible for most everyone.

You've already been given examples of this crap in other countries being unavoidable for workers too so this isn't just a Germany issue nor is it something that will cause any catastrophic hits to industry or GDP.
 

Skripka

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Hahahah have you ever worked for a small company?! I have and they're even worse than the big ones when it comes to stuff like this. On top of that they tend to screw with your paycheck and PTO hours constantly while paying -MUCH- less. Working for big corps suck but at least they don't pull that crap.

Also 'industry wide' means its something that even small companies do. Seriously. There is nowhere to 'run' to here in this modern era of cheap and ubiquitous smartphones and PC's.

And why the heck is it all up to the employee to sacrifice his standard of living and/or time to try and find a good work place? Shouldn't employers be held up to certain standards too? Especially since they have most of the bargaining power and options vs workers and so should be more responsible too?


After hours/off time work is often expected of wage earners who are most of the work force. The article isn't just about salaried labor.


If an issue is industry wide then 'manning up and find somewhere else to work' is practically impossible for most everyone.

You've already been given examples of this crap in other countries being unavoidable for workers too so this isn't just a Germany issue nor is it something that will cause any catastrophic hits to industry or GDP.

Isn't that your work phone ringing? Shouldn't you be not being paid to work instead of talking sense on the internet?
 

mesyn191

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I work longer hours than those at the Foxconn factories.
At under the same wage, schedule (many of them work those ridiculous hours 5-6 days a week which is nearly unheard of in most developed countries), and working conditions? If not then comparing your work shift to theirs is pointless.

FWIW I work 12-16 hr shifts routinely 3-5 days a week but I do it sitting in front of a computer in a nice lab with AC. Completely uncomparable to what a typical laborer in China has to put up with and for a much lower wage too.

Also, the people who work at these locations have far better lives than most of the other people in the country,
So what? Their lives are still pretty crappy to say the least. No one wants to live like that. They do it because they have no other choice or options available to them!

making assumptions that somehow their life would be better without a job or money or a place to sleep would somehow be better than working for this company is just ignorant.
No one is making that assumption and the article in the OP is about improving treatment/respect of workers in Germany by limiting or banning after hours emails and calls.
 

teh_chem

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Well, one thing is for certain, I do not like the work culture in the US. Not that I want to live anywhere else, I just really hate the work culture.
 

Ducman69

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Particularly retarded considering I worked in a corporate environment in afterhours support. In fact if anything, its absolutely ridiculous that we aren't encouraging a divorce from "follow the sun" work hours.

So many of societies problems would be resolved in this global marketplace if we encouraged night shifts.

1) You reduce congestion if 30% of your work force is working on an entirely different schedule
2) You increase international opportunities when you abandon follow-the-sun work ethic
3) You can virtually double the productive capacity of your city/nation if its active both day and night, and we certainly have the population large enough virtually everywhere to justify it

The problem like I said before is the red party is gaining more and more traction in Germany, but no one wants to hear it. The socialists are doing their best to turn Germany into the next France, with the next generation surely to turn into cheese eating lazy surrender monkeys like the smelly beret wearing baguette puffers to the West.
 

Wierdo

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Some people live to work and some people work to live, it's a matter of life priorities.

Europeans generally live healthier lifestyles and spend more time with family, and then go back to work and produce more per hour than the exhausted average Chinese, Japanese and American laborer.

We make up for per hour productivity by working longer shifts, the end result is higher GDP (yay for CEOs) at the expense of health and family.

To each his own I guess.
 
D

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At under the same wage, schedule (many of them work those ridiculous hours 5-6 days a week which is nearly unheard of in most developed countries), and working conditions? If not then comparing your work shift to theirs is pointless.

FWIW I work 12-16 hr shifts routinely 3-5 days a week but I do it sitting in front of a computer in a nice lab with AC. Completely uncomparable to what a typical laborer in China has to put up with and for a much lower wage too.

You can not compare wage state to state, no less country to country, so don't even bother.

Schedule? unheard of? Maybe in your field. I have done extensive oil field and pipeline work, this is 7 days a week, once a project starts you don't get a day off. and I have done 48 hour stretches with maybe a 5min nap in the truck here and there. 18 hour days are the norm here, not the exception. This is also not inside a nice factory, standing in place or sitting somewhere putting little things together, this is hot (Texas summers) rain or shine busting ass with heavy lifting and climbing all day. But please, do go on about how I can't compare my working conditions.


So what? Their lives are still pretty crappy to say the least. No one wants to live like that. They do it because they have no other choice or options available to them!

So a company is supplying people with a better life and opportunity than they would otherwise have, and we should hate places like this? I am sorry, I don't see the logic.


No one is making that assumption and the article in the OP is about improving treatment/respect of workers in Germany by limiting or banning after hours emails and calls.

Read the person I was quoting again, not the OP.
 

RealityCrunch

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I couldn't stand set hours/days, and a paycheck that was identical to other employees regardless of performance (sometimes even getting paid less as you'd do your job quicker thus less hours put in to do the same work).

You'd end up being bored half the time as you'd already finished all your work, and you begin to lose pride in your work as you're only expected to get it done, not do it well.

Actually had an employer call me up on a job and tell me to lessen the quality of my work so that I could work even less hours, even though I was doing better work quicker than the other technicians. It's no wonder the quality of work amongst the technicians was so abysmal, they were just a reflection of their employer's focus on quality and reducing costs.

So I made it a point to search for a good employer. Working your own hours and days (as long as you get the job done), and being paid based on your performance/result and not just the amount of hours you put in sitting in a chair or working at the job site.
 

Exavior

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I like this idea. People need to take a break every once in a while. I wish I was alive back when places weren't allowed to be open on Sundays. Taking a day off should mean actually relaxing. Its healthy.

That was up till 5 years ago by me. nothing could be open on Sundays and everything had to close at 7pm, 8 on weekends. For the first few years they could be open on Sunday it was only from noon till 3. That changed and now places have a little closer to normal hours. You don't know how much of a pain in the ass that really is trying to do anything. You want to get gas? too bad you can't, you want to go to a store? sorry you can't, you want to go out to eat? Sorry you can't do that either.

That might have been fine back when you didn't have to worry about those types of things, but in todays world that is just a major annoyance.
 

rudy

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I like this idea. People need to take a break every once in a while. I wish I was alive back when places weren't allowed to be open on Sundays. Taking a day off should mean actually relaxing. Its healthy.

The problem with that is all the people who were off work couldn't buy the shit they needed to relax or do stuff. If you care about weekends or evenings move to a career that is not time sensitive, or just take a day off in the middle of the week. Ultimately though you decide your path and your input. If someone emails me and I don't want to answer it, I don't. If you want an answer right away you give me a call. The thing is now days there are many people with very special roles in organizations there is no one else who can immediately replace them. So when something is needed from the other team members that person has to deliver, nights, weekends or otherwise. On the flip side they should be paid more for what they do. If you want to work 9-5 and not have to think or react to anything after work. There are many jobs that offer that, I am just not sure you will be happy with their pay level or stimulation.
 

Ducman69

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Europeans generally live healthier lifestyles and spend more time with family, and then go back to work and produce more per hour than the exhausted average Chinese, Japanese and American laborer.
This is the definition of "the grass is always greener".

If you're one of those GDP PPP guys, you have to recognize that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with work ethic, and everything to do with education level. Does a neurosurgeon produce more than a Mexican guy on a chicken farm? According to GDP PPP, of course he does, and by ridiculous magnitudes since the hours worked are very few, but because its a highly skilled position the compensation is around $700K a year playing golf most days vs the illegal that works very long hours for $25K a year.

Unlike say Norway with a homogeneous culture with wealth from natural resources and a very high average education level, the United States average is drug down by illegals and Obama voters that wouldn't make any more money if they worked less hours. In spite of this, our generally good work culture puts the United States as one of the most productive countries per work hour on the planet, and when you remove the "tard" element and only include the college educated portion of the population, its the highest bar none.

The Japanese that you say work too much, have one of the highest life expectancies and average health in the world, and the health issues in the United States has absolutely nothing to do with a healthy work culture, and everything to do with obesity and its primary cause the over-consumption of carbohydrates and sugars. Actually visit the UK and Germany, and you'll see they have the exact same problem now, and its simply an unhealthy dietary change.

The implication that people would be healthier if they were lazier and worked less and have the country completely stop to a grinding halt on weekends and nights is nonsensical.
 

M'ichal

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...making assumptions that somehow their life would be better without a job or money or a place to sleep would somehow be better than working for this company is just ignorant.

I'm not really catching your drift man.

Nowhere did I make assumptions that somehow people in China would be better off without a job than working in their current conditions. Not sure where you got that from.

All I was saying is that someone was insinuating China is a great economy partly because of their workplace practices and I'm saying that it doesn't make those practices right. There are countless studies proving that working too much reduces your life quality, your productivity (which blows my mind how management does not comprehend this correlation) and in the end leads to just bad things.

You yourself mention 48 hr shifts in your job. You're telling me you would not want a law preventing such stuff, so that you could sleep more than 5 minutes?
 

M'ichal

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The implication that people would be healthier if they were lazier and worked less and have the country completely stop to a grinding halt on weekends and nights is nonsensical.

What's nonsensical is equating lack of after-hours harassment and the presence of normal working hours with increased laziness.

You go to extremes saying that a country would come to a halt on weekends because of the proposed law. Naturally there are services that have non-conventional operation hours, but it can all be normalized. A high percentage of businesses could easily stop operating on weekends and nobody would suffer as much as you claim. I remember the days when most stores were closed on Sundays - and what, was it a huge deal? No, not really. And I bet you it wouldn't be now, either if Suzy Shier closed for a day. But OH the lost revenue!
 

Ducman69

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You go to extremes saying that a country would come to a halt on weekends because of the proposed law.
Because I've actually lived with the reality of it, and it sucks more ass than you can possibly imagine until you've dealt with it. And having worked night and weekend shift for years, I'm one of many that are happy to work "off hours", and recognize the huge benefits it provides.

And absolutely its a huge deal and stupid as all holy hell to have everything closed on Sundays and I'll never go back to that backwards religious nonsense. Its fine to have days off, but they should NOT all be on the same day for everyone. Some employees should have Friday and Saturday off, and others Sunday and Monday off. The common sense benefits are plainly obvious.

And actually, I'll go one further as I've said before I support actually a four day workweek, but with longer hours. Combined with staggered shifts for the populace and a considerable portion working nights, you have a 24x7 city that is viable on the modern global market with hugely reduced traffic (rushhour is a stupid easily preventable problem), parking needs, fossil fuel usage, pollution, and issue with some power plants having to be idled at night.
 

dderidex

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It only hurts their competitiveness but Germany was never a threat to the top three economies in the world (USA, China, Japan) who would never do something so stupid

You do realize that Germany has only 25% of the population of the US, but still manages 21% of the GDP of the US, right? (And for that matter, they have 74% of the GDP of Japan with only 63% of the population - so they are flat-out being more efficient than Japan, while practically tying the US)

I'd say that's pretty darn 'competitive', given how incredibly lax their working environment is vs ours.

3) You can virtually double the productive capacity of your city/nation if its active both day and night, and we certainly have the population large enough virtually everywhere to justify it

*I* certainly can't think of any negative consequences to that.
 

Spidey329

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I don't know, we need smarter government regulation, not more/less. Gov't regulation got rid of child labor, helped institute the 40-hour work week, etc.

Right now worker productivity is continuing to increase on its historical trend, but the income gains are no longer going to the workers, but top management/shareholders only.

http://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/...rt-productivity-hourly-compensation-620xa.gif

Right now with the oligopoly we have, employers all create similar hiring standards and policies that make finding a different employer that has meaningfully different policies somewhat difficult. And then you have private collusion like you see with Google, Apple, Intel, etc.

Yep. It's all about the profit margins. I have a friend who works for Chili's. They got a new GM and he got rid of the hourly people like table busers, and auxillary cooks. They then hired more tip-wage ($3 etc/hr) servers and gave them less tables but more work - they now have to take out the trash, bus the tables, sweep/clean, make things in the kitchen, and everything else while also getting assigned less tables (more servers). This means they get less tips but work harder.

It's sad because she can no longer afford to support her kid (deadbeat father), so now she's working a second job which keeps her away from her son.

In the end, it could end up a welfare case. So effectively, Chili's has put the bottom line above all - Corporate welfare.
 
D

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You yourself mention 48 hr shifts in your job. You're telling me you would not want a law preventing such stuff, so that you could sleep more than 5 minutes?

It is a job, something that I learned allot in and am grateful for having, sometimes hours suck, but that is the nature of that field of work. And no, I would not and do not want laws making it illegal. I have worked far worse jobs that I only worked 30 hours a week at, hours worked does not mean everything (though I do agree matter), and 10 hour days are nothing, it has been a long time since I have worked a job that was under 10 hours a day. I no longer work oil field (though still related), I used what I learned to move on and up, I now work nights and put in at minimum 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, every single week. Not always fun, and more free time is always welcome, but that does not mean it should be a law. If I am really that unhappy with what I am doing, then I need to find something else I enjoy or something that would ask me to work less hours.
 

Ducman69

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You do realize that Germany has only 25% of the population of the US, but still manages 21% of the GDP of the US, right?
You do realize that you can actually take a moment to comprehend my post before completely dismissing the entirety of what i just said.
They don't say there is, they say there might be. Other studies have shown its entirely incidental, and has to do primarily with bad diets (eat fast food more often) and sleep deprivation with people that are working inconsistent shifts and getting inconsistent and insufficient sleep hours. Going with a routine, especially when its a norm and you have plenty of friends on the same schedule and cooking healthy meals, is perfectly healthy. I did it for eight years.

The circadian clock nonsense is just that. Almost everyone even on a day schedule has to wake up excessively early due to the ever increasing traffic of the entire work force of the city driving to work at the exact same time. That means that they are waking up in complete darkness, already contrary to the "natural" circadian clock of waking with daylight. Further, the vast majority of the day for most desk workers is covered under artificial light, so its entirely moot if its bright or dark outside as it all looks the same under the artificial light provided (which can be tuned to "natural" levels). Further, if you don't live near the equator, the amount of light hours in the day varies throughout the year regardless, and Canadians and Alaskans aren't getting sick because of it. In any case, no one but the Amish actually go to bed at sunset, so again its artificial light. If you prefer to sleep in darkness, surely you are not arguing that is somehow difficult to achieve indoors.

The issues involve CHANGES to routine, which is why jetlag is so bad.

After all, you can go to bed with regard to the position of the sun at the exact same times if you fly from one country to another, and yet be completely screwed up and feel like crap... it has NOTHING to do with the sun, and everything to do with a change to your routine.
 

OP20

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We definitely shouldn't leave people free to make their own choices. They might start getting ideas.
 

Xrave

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fuck that noise, I don't need the government telling me how long I want to work
 

Wierdo

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This is the definition of "the grass is always greener".

If you're one of those GDP PPP guys, you have to recognize that it has absolutely NOTHING to do with work ethic, and everything to do with education level.
...
The Japanese that you say work too much, have one of the highest life expectancies and average health in the world, and the health issues in the United States has absolutely nothing to do with a healthy work culture, and everything to do with obesity and its primary cause the over-consumption of carbohydrates and sugars. Actually visit the UK and Germany, and you'll see they have the exact same problem now, and its simply an unhealthy dietary change.

The implication that people would be healthier if they were lazier and worked less and have the country completely stop to a grinding halt on weekends and nights is nonsensical.

I've been on both sides of the fence, I can say Europe is for the people and US is for the money, meaning work here when you're young, and then raise a family there if you can. The benefits depend on what you value in your life at a given point of time.

And as far as work ethic, well when you work long hours your productivity goes down with fatigue, it's not rocket science, I'm not implying the average American worker is naturally less productive, it's just that the workaholic lifestyle takes its toll on the body and mind. My friend's co-worker died on his desk and they didn't find out for two days cause everyone's busy with deadlines and whatnot, running back the forth past his cube without even saying hi, it's a pretty sad way to go.

I agree with you that Europe has higher education levels, but I don't think that would help Europe's statistics, we may have trouble producing enough skilled labor to cover the market, but we import/attract the brightest young minds in the world with our higher pay and lower tax rates in that bracket.

Japan's life expectancy has more to do with their healthy eastern diet, and wealthy lifestyle, it may compensate for the work stress in some way perhaps. BUT that lifestyle's unfortunately something that's changing rapidly after the 1990s recession - they call it "the lost 20 years" - and they also have some of the highest suicide rates in the world to boot.

I do agree with you about the obesity epidemic on our side of the pond, and yes much of it is a fast food culture thing, but in many many cases it's closely tied to long work hours and poverty for many: If you're a single mother working two jobs you tend to have little time or energy for proper cooking, you just pickup chicken fingers for the kids and go home, watch TV for an hour and head to bed. We have a metric ton of those scenarios here.

I've seen the situation with the younger generation in Europe, you're right, they're getting into the fast food culture as well, it's concerning. I worry that they'll cause a major burden on their healthcare system down the line, Sweden's healthcare system may be impressive, but it helps that the living standards there - pollution, work conditions, lifestyle, stress etc - are healthier, once that changes then who knows how the system would hold up. We'll see how that unfolds soon I guess.

Total_health_expenditure_per_capita%2C_US_Dollars_PPP_%28alt%29.png


For the record I wasn't interested in the content of the news article itself, I was actually replying to a post in this thread claiming that Europeans are lazy because they work less hours, I disagree that long work hours make a person productive, quality vs quantity and all that jazz. The news itself I have no opinion on really.
 

mesyn191

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You can not compare wage state to state, no less country to country, so don't even bother. <snip description of general work conditions/hours>
Sure you can. You just adjust for CoL. This isn't some new or strange idea nor is it overly difficult to do. But if you work in the oil industry its safe to say you make craploads more than your average Chinese laborer even if your hours/schedule/work conditions are as bad.

So a company is supplying people with a better life and opportunity than they would otherwise have, and we should hate places like this?
If they're still treating their people like crap while on top of that paying them crap absolutely. The logic here isn't complex or unreasonable. These people have done nothing wrong to be treated so poorly. They tend to work pretty damn hard too. Why shouldn't their effort be rewarded properly? And no I'm not talking about paying them the equivalent of six figure US wages either.

Read the person I was quoting again, not the OP.
The person you were quoting, and no one in the thread for that matter, was saying what you think they were saying. Your bias just might be getting the best of you when you try and interpret what people are saying BTW.
 

mesyn191

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 28, 2004
Messages
2,983
The circadian clock nonsense is just that.
No. Its not nonsense. Plenty of research is available with a google if you want a paper instead of a easy to read editorial that cites the research.

Almost everyone even on a day schedule has to wake up excessively early ...That means that they are waking up in complete darkness, already contrary to the "natural" circadian clock of waking with daylight.
Hahaha you don't know what you're talking about. Its got nothing to do with light conditions when waking. What matters is its light out during their active hours and dark when its time to go to bed. People have been getting up while its still dark since forever to make the most of daylight hours when they didn't have lightbulbs BTW. That is not a modern issue.

Further, the vast majority of the day for most desk workers is covered under artificial light
Doesn't matter since no work places tune their lights properly for daylight conditions. It'd cost too much. The big problem you're not addressing here is that people are social and a graveyard shift imposes severely on social life. Most people aren't going to maintain regular work/sleep hours which is what really messes them up. Even if they're willing to try, which is rare BTW most people can only stand to work graveyard shift for a couple of years at the most, the employer usually messes with their schedule constantly. So they never get the chance to adapt their sleep cycle.


BTW the article and thread were about Germans and workers in general having to put up with after hours unpaid work and not a 24/7 work economy.
 
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