Gadget Makers Can Find Thief, but Don’t Ask

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
How bad would it piss you off if a company had information on the whereabouts of a device stolen from you but refused to help. I personally haven’t had this happen but I know how mad I would be if it did.

He began to see ulterior motives when he twice sent e-mail messages to Amazon seeking an address to send a police report and got no reply. “I finally concluded,” Mr. Borgese said, “that Amazon knew the device was being used and preferred to sell content to anyone who possessed the device, rather than assist in returning it to its rightful owner.”
 
They're not obstructing justice, they are well within their rights not to do anything until a subpoena is presented.
 
I don't beleve "recovery of lost property" is in the EULA

On the other hand, who owns the property?
 
Yup it pisses me off, while I haven't had this done before, companies tend to not want to help you at all unless they get a court order.

Now on one hand I can understand, otherwise it'll be easy for someone to say "My cell phone got stolen can you track the person?" and open up a whole can o' litigation worms. The other hand, even if you talk to the cops they don't want to lift a finger for something as "minor" as a cell phone so you can't even get the court order or what not in the first place!
 
How does Amazon know that this guy did not sell the device, and is now reporting it stolen to get it back at the person for whatever reason. I'm sure that Amazon would like to help out, but does not want to get sued if they give out personal information. What if an abusive ex was trying to track down his ex-wife to kill her and Amazon gives out the address. Can you say lawsuit.
 
I don't see why it is so difficult to understand why Amazon is acting this way.

Police contact them so they know it is legit. He didn't tell the police to contact them, he wanted to know where to send a police report. I can make a fake police report pretty quick. That's why they want the police themselves to contact them. Customer lost his device and is pissed about it. It's his own fault.

Sorry Steve, I'm siding with Amazon. No point in getting pissed because Amazon won't help you when you can't back up your claim. How do they know you actually lost it, they don't.
 
Oh come on, you know why they won't do it. They probably want to wait and make it a service you have to pay for later.
 
How does Amazon know that this guy did not sell the device, and is now reporting it stolen to get it back at the person for whatever reason. I'm sure that Amazon would like to help out, but does not want to get sued if they give out personal information. What if an abusive ex was trying to track down his ex-wife to kill her and Amazon gives out the address. Can you say lawsuit.

Seriously. There is some serious CYA here on amazon's part.
 
On what grounds? Not arbitrarily giving out customer data to anyone that asks?

So You think that anyone that sells their Kindle should be able to just email Amazon and get personal details on the person that received it?

You didn't read the article. He wanted the info to go the police.
 
It's just the way it goes. When my Mom died we were trying to get phone records because we believe her husband assisted her suicide, but Tmobile would release nothing. Ended up taking a lawyer and lots of time and money.
 
You didn't read the article. He wanted the info to go the police.

So? No company should EVER release any private information whatsoever beyond what they are legally required to do.

If he wanted the information he should have produced a court order to that effect.

Any release of information beyond what is legally required opens up the company to a legal action.
 
You didn't read the article. He wanted the info to go the police.

Can I have your SSN and credit card numbers? I'm going to the police about a crime that happened last week. Unfortunantly, I am in nigera at the moment so I can't have a cop with a subpoena call you. I promise I'll get that subpoena to you next tuesday though.
 
"After leaving it on a plane, he canceled his account so that nobody could charge books to his credit card."

We're talking about an item that was lost not stolen.

"He began to see ulterior motives when he twice sent e-mail messages to Amazon seeking an address to send a police report and got no reply."

So he sent an email to find out where to send a police report. It doesn;t say he actually had one. And a police report proves exactly fuck all btw.
 
I don't see why it is so difficult to understand why Amazon is acting this way.

Police contact them so they know it is legit. He didn't tell the police to contact them, he wanted to know where to send a police report. I can make a fake police report pretty quick. That's why they want the police themselves to contact them. Customer lost his device and is pissed about it. It's his own fault.

Sorry Steve, I'm siding with Amazon. No point in getting pissed because Amazon won't help you when you can't back up your claim. How do they know you actually lost it, they don't.

Fortunately for you, you don't seem to have any experience dealing with the police on a matter of theft.

The reality is, unless the cop is a friend or relative, or unless you live in a very small town, you're not going to get much help from them: something like a phone, kindle, or even laptop computer, is way, way, way down on their list of priorities, under things like assault and murder.

On this I speak of experience, having recently had my kindle stolen. I have a police report, filled out the day after it happened, but the cop said in as many words that it wasn't a priority, and he didn't want to do so much as call Amazon. Sucks? You bet it does.

I actually have an attorney looking into the issue right now, not that I expect it to go anywhere, and the only reason that is happening is because I know the attorney and have a quid pro quo going with him.

The biggest issue with the kindle at the moment is that it does not prompt a person for any kind of authentication or authorization before registering it to a new account. None. Nada. Zip. Ziltch. The device assumes that whomever has physical possession of it is its rightful owner. So if a s--thead gets possession of your kindle, they can move it to their account and there's not a blessed thing you can do about it, and as the article points out, there's nothing Amazon will do about it.

The article mentions having Amazon exercise a 'kill switch' for the devices. If they're terrified of the PR fallout from that, then they have another solution: give control of the kill switch to the user, after ensuring that the device cannot be re-registered without the registered owner's authorization. The kill switch doesn't even have to be permanent. If the "new" user can satisfy Amazon that they have legal ownership, Amazon can turn it back on and/or re-register it so the new owner can re-enable the device. But the key thing is to not let the device be moved to a new account improperly.

Having lost mine, I have no intention of buying another until Amazon fixes their horrible insecurity-by-design flaw and bricks my kindle (though ideally I'd like it back in my possession).
 
"After leaving it on a plane, he canceled his account so that nobody could charge books to his credit card."

We're talking about an item that was lost not stolen.

You are legally obligated to turn-in items "found" to the proper authorities. Failure to do so constitutes theft. Don't believe me? In the off chance that you "find" a bag with $50,000 in it, see what happens to you if you don't turn the bag over to the police. The difference between $50,000 in cash and a $500 kindle? Two orders of magnitude-- that's all.
 
This isn't unusual. There's all kinds of ways people can misuse information given out by a service provider. Call cops, get a subpoena. They call the provider and get info back to you. Cops call my work all the time with subpeona's. I cant comment on how well the cops do their job but I can say they definitely follow up.
 
It's just the way it goes. When my Mom died we were trying to get phone records because we believe her husband assisted her suicide, but Tmobile would release nothing. Ended up taking a lawyer and lots of time and money.

The difference being that you weren't the lawful owner of the phone at the time the calls were made. If you had been, then they would have given you the records on request, wouldn't they?

At this time Mr. Borgese is the lawful owner of the device, and Apple knows this. Therefore if he requests information on how, where, or when, it has been used in the last few weeks then he is asking for information regarding his own personal property, and Apple has no legal justification that I can see for withholding that information.

On the other hand, they only have Mr. Borgese word that it was stolen, and for all they know it was sold and now Mr. Borgese is fishing for CC information on the purchaser. Seems like a lot of crap to go through for that information though. Still, I would think a request without Subpoena, from the police should be enough to get all information but the new users CC information. There is no legal reason not to assist with an ongoing police investigation.
 
This BS is typical of not just Amazon but businesses in general. Take for example my wife sold her car to a dealership. 2 months latter we get a letter from a neighbouring city that there is a bench warrant for my wife for outstanding tickets. The dealership resold it with the tags still in my wife's name. The dealership basically said screw you, we will not help without a subpoena. We finally get it cleared up and the warrant quashed and 4 months latter we get another letter for new outstanding tickets. If I ever find that SOB I will tune him/her up a little bit.

So businesses provide anonymity for perps, nothing new here. It is safer legal ground for them to do nothing then risk a lawsuit with action. Our society has become so twisted.
 
The article mentions having Amazon exercise a 'kill switch' for the devices. If they're terrified of the PR fallout from that, then they have another solution: give control of the kill switch to the user, after ensuring that the device cannot be re-registered without the registered owner's authorization. The kill switch doesn't even have to be permanent. If the "new" user can satisfy Amazon that they have legal ownership, Amazon can turn it back on and/or re-register it so the new owner can re-enable the device. But the key thing is to not let the device be moved to a new account improperly.

So person needs cash, takes Kindle to pawn shop. Trades it for cash, then bricks it. Then some poor dude buys the Kindle from the pawn shop, and it's bricked. The original owner claims he didn't sell it, and the new legit owner is screwed.

Take for example my wife sold her car to a dealership. 2 months latter we get a letter from a neighbouring city that there is a bench warrant for my wife for outstanding tickets. The dealership resold it with the tags still in my wife's name. The dealership basically said screw you, we will not help without a subpoena. We finally get it cleared up and the warrant quashed and 4 months latter we get another letter for new outstanding tickets. If I ever find that SOB I will tune him/her up a little bit.

Here in WA state you file a report of sale when you trade in your car. All dealerships are required to do this, as are private sellers. As soon as that is filed (and it's supposed to be done within a few days of sale, don't recall the exact number of days - 10 ?) then you are off the hook for fines, etc. I'd contact the local DMV and make sure that the vehicle is no longer registered in your name instead of having the dealership do this.
 
I don't expect amazon to help him get it back but it's pretty sad that they can't at least blacklist the device. People aren't going to steal things that are of no use to them.
 
So person needs cash, takes Kindle to pawn shop. Trades it for cash, then bricks it. Then some poor dude buys the Kindle from the pawn shop, and it's bricked. The original owner claims he didn't sell it, and the new legit owner is screwed.

I suppose it varies by state and/or municipality, but pawn shops are typically required to see and record identifying information from the seller as part of the transaction. Such identification is typically a drivers license or other state-issued identification card. Pawn shops have been used throughout history as a place to unload stolen merchandise, and laws and procedures have evolved to deal with the issue.

An evolved procedure could include having the pawn shop require that the original owner release the kindle from his/her account at the time it is pawned; a non-operational kindle would not be accepted.

As for theoretical situations, why would someone pawning their kindle chose to brick it? To be an ass? To give the pawn shop reason to press charges against them?

It's rarely possible to cover every single contingency, and rarer still to satisfy every person.
 
It's rarely possible to cover every single contingency, and rarer still to satisfy every person.

Exactly. Hence the reason that a "Kill Switch" will never fly. Someone will use it to be an ass and or game the system.

And who freaking looses their $500 (InsertNameOfGadgetHere) anyway? I'm VERY paranoid of things getting lost, or stolen when it comes to spendy gadgets that I know I'll have to pay to replace if I loose them or they are stolen. Expecting a manufacturer to help you retrieve said gadget is just tilting at windmills. Expecting them to not charge you for any future purchases on said device is reasonable (once you've notified them of the loss or theft). Expecting them to cooperate with the police is reasonable as well, but expecting them to help you out because you *SAY* the device was lost or stolen? Yea, and pigs will fly. The problem with stolen/lost goods recovery is that there's no money/glory in it for the cops so it will be low on the totem pole
 
Here in WA state you file a report of sale when you trade in your car. All dealerships are required to do this, as are private sellers. As soon as that is filed (and it's supposed to be done within a few days of sale, don't recall the exact number of days - 10 ?) then you are off the hook for fines, etc. I'd contact the local DMV and make sure that the vehicle is no longer registered in your name instead of having the dealership do this.

Here in the retarded state of OK, the delearship is not responsible for anything, after we got the first bench warrant notice, we had to go down to the city municipal office and pay to file a notice of transfer of ownership, but that didn't stop a second warrant coming. We toyed with the idea of filing a false police report of the vehicle being stolen since it was still in my wife's name but decided there were too many cons to that.
 
On this I speak of experience, having recently had my kindle stolen. I have a police report, filled out the day after it happened, but the cop said in as many words that it wasn't a priority, and he didn't want to do so much as call Amazon. Sucks? You bet it does.

...

The article mentions having Amazon exercise a 'kill switch' for the devices. If they're terrified of the PR fallout from that, then they have another solution: give control of the kill switch to the user, after ensuring that the device cannot be re-registered without the registered owner's authorization. The kill switch doesn't even have to be permanent. If the "new" user can satisfy Amazon that they have legal ownership, Amazon can turn it back on and/or re-register it so the new owner can re-enable the device. But the key thing is to not let the device be moved to a new account improperly.

Having lost mine, I have no intention of buying another until Amazon fixes their horrible insecurity-by-design flaw and bricks my kindle (though ideally I'd like it back in my possession).

You are against the grain. Just like an Ipod, the Kindle is made for a primary purpose to return money to the company through in-store purchases. Those of us who lose possession of a device like this are assumed to buy another one. Whomever ends up with your initial device is also assumed to buy more downloads. These companies seem to benefit with a certain amount of stolen devices.

For the sake of argument, I will pretend that 1 percent of all kindles have been lost or stolen. We will now look at amazon's estimates for sales :



If we continue the 1 percent assumption, amazon estimates they will add 7 million in sales from stolen units this year. With those units either replaced by insurance or out of pocket by its legitimate users it only makes sense to not assist recovery of stolen items.

IANAL but it seems to me that a class-action case based on collusion in a criminal way.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3355368534768617544#

This has to be illegal. They are actively engaging in their own success by having company procedures in place to actively not work with law enforcement to return known stolen goods to their rightful owners. Then to add insult to injury they add another criminal to their customer/client list.
 
Of course Amazon isn't going to track the possessor of a device without legal orders to do so. Otherwise, all sorts of bad things could happen. What if a couple divorces and the girl takes the Kindle but the guy is still listed on the account? Then he could track his ex-wife's every move just be telling Amazon that the Kindle was stolen.

In fact, think about how often you are not in possession of a device with location hardware inside; I think it's a good thing that companies do not release that data to anyone who asks.
 
Of course, theft deterrent system like those mentioned in the article and the ability to brick stolen devices would be welcome.
 
Exactly. Hence the reason that a "Kill Switch" will never fly. Someone will use it to be an ass and or game the system.

People figure out ways to be asses and game the system regardless what policy is in place, be it with or without a kill switch.

Case in point, the ultimate system game: the person who stole my kindle has a fully functioning kindle. They get value out of it. Even if they sell it, they get value out of it. Amazon also gets value out of it, by selling content to the new possessor of my kindle. The only one hurt is me, as I now have no kindle, and either need to purchase a new kindle or write off the value of the content I've already purchased, since I cannot access it without one.

Let this be a lesson, folks, that apparently crime does pay. So long as you keep the amounts small, there are no negative conseqences. Call me old fashion, call me a crusader, but I think this is wrong, and I'm not about to accept it.

And who freaking looses their $500 (InsertNameOfGadgetHere) anyway? I'm VERY paranoid of things getting lost, or stolen when it comes to spendy gadgets that I know I'll have to pay to replace if I loose them or they are stolen.

Spoken like just about everyone who has ever had something stolen or lost. Like an accident, 'stuff' happens, whether you intend it to or not. But on the subject, how would you prevent someone from stealing it, if you had one? Never let it leave the house? Keep it locked in a safe when you're not using it? Refuse to give it up if someone has you at gun or knife point? Being "VERY paranoid" is fine, but paranoia is not itself armor against the world.

According to the FBI, there were an estimated 2,154,126 burglary offenses reported, with an average dollar loss estimated at $1,725 per offense. During that same year, there were an estimated 6,776,807 larceny-theft offenses reported, with an average dollar loss estimated at $764 per offense. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/05cius/offenses/property_crime/index.html

If it is technologically possible to locate a stolen item-- particularlly your stolen item, wouldn't you want it employed?

Expecting a manufacturer to help you retrieve said gadget is just tilting at windmills.

I expect them to help law enforcement find it, though as I said, LE don't consider it a priority, either. If the manufacturer-- who has the information about the new possessor-- and law enforcement both refuse to participate, where does that leave the victim? Ergo my conclusion that crime pays, which speaks volumes to me about where we're headed as a society.

Expecting them to cooperate with the police is reasonable as well, but expecting them to help you out because you *SAY* the device was lost or stolen? Yea, and pigs will fly. The problem with stolen/lost goods recovery is that there's no money/glory in it for the cops so it will be low on the totem pole

Quite probably the solution will be to file a civil suit against John Doe and subpeona Amazon for Doe's identity. That's expensive and time consuming, and really shouldn't be necessary, not when the local sheriff deputy can call Amazon and give them the serial number of the device, and then Amazon can tell the deputy who they have on file for the kindle.

How much effort is needed by law enforcement at this point depends on who has the kindle. If the thief is the smash-and-grab kind, he or she has probably sold it. Finding the current possessor shouldn't be difficult, as he or she has probably done nothing to hide his or her identify; what Amazon has on file for a name and address is probably correct. The same is probably true if the thief is an otherwise "normal" person who is ethically challenged.

It would take some dedication for someone to open an Amazon account under an assumed name and use only stolen credit cards or pre-paid gift cards for all purchases, the former being more likely (in my mind) than the latter. If that's the case, I would think the police would be very interested in speaking with such a person.

At a minimum, I would settle for depriving the thief of value by disabling the kindle, if it proves prohibitively expensive to recover. But accepting that my loss is someone else's gain is not an option I am willing to accept, not when the information about who has it is readily available to Amazon, and when Amazon has the capability-- even if it is not currently implemented in a turn-of-the-key method-- of shutting the device down.

The civilized world operates on the concept of "policing by consent." The public majority consents to the authority of the police minority because it is in their collective best interest to do so. Individual people obey the law because there are consequences for not doing so. What situations like this teach people is that their are no consequences, or that the odds are in their favor of not suffering consequences.

It's a cycle the feeds on itself. Police find themselves short-staffed to deal with incidents of petty theft and minor burgaries, so they stop doing so entirely and focus on the "big" crimes like grand theft, assault, and murder. As a result, more individuals come to believe they can operate against the law with impunity, which creates even more crime that the police do not have the resources to deal with, and so the cycle continues and grows until something changes or the system breaks.

I don't particularly want to see that happen, and I have a choice to do what I can, now, to make my own personal stand against people who see themselves as immune to the law. More's the pity if Amazon looks only toward its bottom line rather than balancing their bottom line against what is right.

Certainly they need to update the kindle so it requires authorization for the currently registered owner before being de-registered or re-registered to a new account. Also, a pin code should be made available as an option before it can be powered on or connected to a PC through USB. These would deprive most of the value to a thief. The kill or disable switch, either controlled by the registered owner or Amazon, would be the final measure available to an unrecoverable device. As technological measures, none of these things require significant effort to implement.
 
Spoken like just about everyone who has ever had something stolen or lost.
Nope - I've had stereo equipment stolen out of my car. It was parked out side of my apartment window, with the window to the apartment open. I was asleep when they popped the hatch latch to my car. How do I know? Because my hatch latch made a particular sound and it woke me up. Since I had just woke up, I didn't realize what that noise was until 2 hours later..... Had I only looked outside those dudes would have been in for a RUDE shock....
Yes it sucks, and yes I was PISSED, I'm not denying that. And yes I've lost stuff... Oh man, I've lost stuff.

Refuse to give it up if someone has you at gun or knife point?
For starters, I don't put myself in those situations. If I'm going somewhere that I know is sketchy, I take the beater car, make sure nothings in site when I park it, and don't carry around expensive hardware - except for my .45 (but I digress)

If the thief is the smash-and-grab kind, he or she has probably sold it. Finding the current possessor shouldn't be difficult, as he or she has probably done nothing to hide his or her identify; what Amazon has on file for a name and address is probably correct.
Ok, so the current possessor purchased it from some guy on craigslist, not knowing it was stolen. What crime has that person commited - Receiving stolen property? IANAL but if the person who bought it doesn't know that it's stolen, then as far as I know they have not committed that crime.

That's expensive and time consuming, and really shouldn't be necessary, not when the local sheriff deputy can call Amazon and give them the serial number of the device, and then Amazon can tell the deputy who they have on file for the kindle.
So Amazon should take on it's face that this is "Deputy Dan" on the other end of the line?
That's social engineering at it's finest, and is a definite bad idea. Requiring a supena is the only way to go. Yes it's WAY overkill, but in this day and age, it's the only way a large corperation will cooperate. Privacy concerns trumps your need to know who has the device.


Let me be clear about this: I don't mind a kill switch (indeed, I'd be willing to bet there is already one in there), And it doesn't have a PIN lockout? Are you KIDDING ME? That one's a no brainer. Even the deregister to sell it isn't a bad idea. However - Getting Amazon to hit the kill switch for anybody not having a supena just isn't going to happen, nor do I think it should. Now if I was the guy who's kindle was stolen, I'd be pointing out to the prosecuting attorney that A) Amazon knows where it is now and B) even if the current person who has it ISN'T the thief, they may know where the thief is, and C) most thieves are repeat offenders and probably have lots of OTHER stolen goods in there possession and it would be pretty easy to get the guy. And finally I'd be a squeeky wheel. Doesn't take much to do.
 
I can't believe people are mad at Amazon for this. You really want them to trust anyone who calls and claims to be a police officer? That opens themselves up to a huge liability, and it puts the privacy of anyone who has ever done business with Amazon at risk. I think the more likely outcome in that serious would be crazy stalker ex's calling up as the police and tracking people down.

Amazon shouldn't have to receive a call from the police, get said officers name and badge number, then call the department to confirm that the officer is real either. There is a process for ALL of this, it's called a search warrant.

If the police don't care enough to do that, then you really can't expect Amazon to just take everything you say as truth and kill the device. If you are that concerned about small gadgets being stolen, insure them. Either get a standalone personal article policy or get a rider on your homeowners or renters insurance. It's cheap as hell and covers theft and damage. Best of all, no police or court orders required! :p
 
Fortunately for you, you don't seem to have any experience dealing with the police on a matter of theft.

The reality is, unless the cop is a friend or relative, or unless you live in a very small town, you're not going to get much help from them: something like a phone, kindle, or even laptop computer, is way, way, way down on their list of priorities, under things like assault and murder.

On this I speak of experience, having recently had my kindle stolen. I have a police report, filled out the day after it happened, but the cop said in as many words that it wasn't a priority, and he didn't want to do so much as call Amazon. Sucks? You bet it does.

I actually have an attorney looking into the issue right now, not that I expect it to go anywhere, and the only reason that is happening is because I know the attorney and have a quid pro quo going with him.

The biggest issue with the kindle at the moment is that it does not prompt a person for any kind of authentication or authorization before registering it to a new account. None. Nada. Zip. Ziltch. The device assumes that whomever has physical possession of it is its rightful owner. So if a s--thead gets possession of your kindle, they can move it to their account and there's not a blessed thing you can do about it, and as the article points out, there's nothing Amazon will do about it.

The article mentions having Amazon exercise a 'kill switch' for the devices. If they're terrified of the PR fallout from that, then they have another solution: give control of the kill switch to the user, after ensuring that the device cannot be re-registered without the registered owner's authorization. The kill switch doesn't even have to be permanent. If the "new" user can satisfy Amazon that they have legal ownership, Amazon can turn it back on and/or re-register it so the new owner can re-enable the device. But the key thing is to not let the device be moved to a new account improperly.

Having lost mine, I have no intention of buying another until Amazon fixes their horrible insecurity-by-design flaw and bricks my kindle (though ideally I'd like it back in my possession).

Yes, I do know how things worked. I did about a 5 year stint at Radio Shack. Once had a guy grab a big home audio receiver off the shelf, tuck it under his arm and bolt out the door. (Never thought someone could run that fast with a 30-ish pound receiver throwing their balance off) Cops took a report, etc, nothing came of it.

Now as to your fanciful kill switch idea. Here buy my Kindle. *kill switch* Thanks for the money. Now how can you prove to Amazon you are the rightful owner? Bill of sale? Right, you can sign it yourself, Amazon has never seen my signature. They won't accept it. Do you need to register ipods to download songs from itunes? (Honestly don't know, don't own one) If so why no outcry about Apple not bricking stolen ipods when they connect to the itunes store?

Simple fact is there is no way Amazon can know for certain if a device is stolen, or has been sold to someone, so they aren't going to brick it or say who has it. Not without the police contacting them or a lawyer. Just because a person has a police report to give them doesn't mean much. Just about any one of us in here is savvy enough to whip up a very believable police report on our computer in no time flat.

Does it suck? Yes, it does. Is Amazon right for doing what they are doing? From a business point of view, cover your butt, so yes. Personally? Well, it's a personal opinion. I agree while others don't.
 
Nope - I've had stereo equipment stolen out of my car... Yes it sucks, and yes I was PISSED, I'm not denying that. And yes I've lost stuff... Oh man, I've lost stuff.

That sucks. However, you mis-read what I wrote, and I meant exactly what I wrote: I specifically wrote "ever," not "never." Almost EVERYONE thinks they're careful, right up to the moment something happens to them.

For starters, I don't put myself in those situations. If I'm going somewhere that I know is sketchy, I take the beater car, make sure nothings in site when I park it, and don't carry around expensive hardware - except for my .45 (but I digress)
No one puts themselves under someone else's gun. You have control over yourself, but you do not have control over others, including people who might seek to assault you.

Ok, so the current possessor purchased it from some guy on craigslist, not knowing it was stolen. What crime has that person commited - Receiving stolen property? IANAL but if the person who bought it doesn't know that it's stolen, then as far as I know they have not committed that crime.
Interesting. Do you believe that just because someone didn't know it was stolen, that they should be allowed to keep it? Bearing in mind I didn't say the police should arrest them, only that Amazon could tell them who has the kindle now. And as you pointed out later, even if the person in possession isn't the thief, they might know who that person is or how to contact him. If you're arguing against dispatching the police here and having the current possessor help the police with their inquiries later, then you are arguing contradictory positions.

So Amazon should take on it's face that this is "Deputy Dan" on the other end of the line?
That's social engineering at it's finest, and is a definite bad idea. Requiring a supena is the only way to go. Yes it's WAY overkill, but in this day and age, it's the only way a large corperation will cooperate. Privacy concerns trumps your need to know who has the device.
You've made an awful lot of assumptions in this discussion, but this trumps them all: the assumption that it would be impossible for a police officer to verify his or her identity to someone they are not face-to-face with. As long as we're on the subject, why assume the subpoena received is real? Like a police officer validating his or her identity, there are ways to validate the authenticity of a subpoena.

Let me be clear about this: I don't mind a kill switch (indeed, I'd be willing to bet there is already one in there), And it doesn't have a PIN lockout? Are you KIDDING ME? That one's a no brainer. Even the deregister to sell it isn't a bad idea. However - Getting Amazon to hit the kill switch for anybody not having a supena just isn't going to happen, nor do I think it should.
First, maybe now you have a glimmer why those of us who have had our kindles stolen are so upset over the whole situation. Amazon has, repeatedly and at a very basic level, failed to adequately secure their devices, with some of those insecurities being more or less obvious than others. As incredulous as it should be, under the circumstances it doesn't seem a stretch to believe Amazon wants stolen kindles to remain active to bolster their sales and market share. I hope that I ascribe to malice that which is merely incompetence, but it is such gross incompetence that it beggers belief.

Second, a subpoena is an order to provide testimony or information, not an order compelling action (except such action as necessary to compel the required testimony or information).

Now if I was the guy who's kindle was stolen, I'd be pointing out to the prosecuting attorney that A) Amazon knows where it is now and B) even if the current person who has it ISN'T the thief, they may know where the thief is, and C) most thieves are repeat offenders and probably have lots of OTHER stolen goods in there possession and it would be pretty easy to get the guy. And finally I'd be a squeeky wheel. Doesn't take much to do.
And as I already stated, I have retained the services of an attorney to do these things for me. "Officialdom" tends to respond better to its peers than its subjects.
 
I can't believe people are mad at Amazon for this. You really want them to trust anyone who calls and claims to be a police officer?... Amazon shouldn't have to receive a call from the police, get said officers name and badge number, then call the department to confirm that the officer is real either. There is a process for ALL of this, it's called a search warrant.

First you opine that Amazon shouldn't trust "anyone who calls and claims to be a police officer," then opine that Amazon shouldn't have to validate whether or not someone is a police officer. Which is it?

And search warrants are physically executed by officers, which means either getting the police local to Amazon's office to execute the warrant, or sending an officer out of his jurisdiction to Amazon's office (which would probably still require the presence of the local police, given the jurisdictional issues). But while we're considering fraud and social engineering, why assume an officer who shows up at Amazon's office is really an officer? Might be someone impersonating a police officer, after all.

Possibly the mechanism you were looking for is "subpoena," which can be sent to Amazon requesting certain information, and which Amazon is then required to provide. However, every large company gives received subpoenas to their legal departments or retained attorneys before executing them, to verify the subpoena is real and the request is within bounds of the law, which incurs additional expense.

So no matter what method is used to procure information, it will still involve an expense on Amazon's part.

If the police don't care enough to do that, then you really can't expect Amazon to just take everything you say as truth and kill the device.
If what it takes is a lawsuit, then so be it. Like I said, I'm a crusader.

If you are that concerned about small gadgets being stolen, insure them. Either get a standalone personal article policy or get a rider on your homeowners or renters insurance. It's cheap as hell and covers theft and damage. Best of all, no police or court orders required! :p
That only covers the replacement of the device, but does nothing about someone gaining value from the device stolen from me. Call me old fashioned, but I don't believe others should illegally profit from my loss, not when it is technologically feasible to disable the device.

Imagine for a moment that you bought a shiny new car complete with OnStar or similar service, then the car is stolen. The police refuse to call OnStar to get the GPS coordinates for the car, OnStar won't give you the coordinates, nor will they disable the starter for the car. To make matters worse, you paid cash for the car and insured it for liability only, so no theft coverage. What are you going to do? (Besides point out you wouldn't do certain things in the first place; it's so much more difficult to see the future than the past.)
 
Now as to your fanciful kill switch idea. Here buy my Kindle. *kill switch* Thanks for the money. Now how can you prove to Amazon you are the rightful owner? Bill of sale? Right, you can sign it yourself, Amazon has never seen my signature. They won't accept it.

Please re-read my posts again. And then again. And again. Keep re-reading until you gain comprehension of the whole thing, rather than picking and choosing the tidbits that offend you.

Let me give you the highlights:

Kindle has no security whatsoever -> Amazon should update them to prompt for authentication before de-registering or re-registering to a new account -> once de-registered, user-controlled kill-switch no longer available -- sale can proceed -> once registered, user-controlled kill-switch available.

Do you need to register ipods to download songs from itunes? (Honestly don't know, don't own one) If so why no outcry about Apple not bricking stolen ipods when they connect to the itunes store?
While you don't explicitly register your iPod, connecting it to iTunes causes it's serial number to be sent to Apple, so essentially: yes, you must register your iPod to download songs from iTunes.

As for the outcry, it's there, but as someone who just professed to not owning an iPod, it's understandable that you wouldn't notice it. Try this:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=stolen+ipod


Simple fact is there is no way Amazon can know for certain if a device is stolen, or has been sold to someone, so they aren't going to brick it or say who has it. Not without the police contacting them or a lawyer. Just because a person has a police report to give them doesn't mean much. Just about any one of us in here is savvy enough to whip up a very believable police report on our computer in no time flat.
Can you also hack into the police department's records system and implant your phony report? Or at least get a valid case number to attach to it?

It boggles my mind that there are people hell-bent on trying to find every reason not to do something, to not put procedures in place to facilitate something, even when the "logic" and "reasoning" behind the refusals are so incredibly flawed. Rather than say "this is a problem, how can we find a solution?" you choose "this is a problem, but too bad for you."
 
So how much of my taxes would you like to spend on finding your lost or stolen Kindle that I(a fellow tax paying citizen) could care less about?

If my gadget gets lost or stolen I replace it. It's a grimy world out there, boohoo.
 
Interesting. Do you believe that just because someone didn't know it was stolen, that they should be allowed to keep it?

Nope - no where did I say that the person who currently has the stolen kindle should retain it. Indeed there are laws in place already governing this very thing. At what point does a stolen kindle recovered by police vary from any other stolen item recovered by police? Answer: It doesn't.

You've made an awful lot of assumptions in this discussion, but this trumps them all: the assumption that it would be impossible for a police officer to verify his or her identity to someone they are not face-to-face with. As long as we're on the subject, why assume the subpoena received is real? Like a police officer validating his or her identity, there are ways to validate the authenticity of a subpoena.

This is a basic trust problem - there is no way, with just one phone call, that anybody can validate being a police officer. But, But, I have a Badge Number.... Well so do I... XYZ123. But, But, I have a case number.... Well so do I it's - 67893ABC. As for validation of a subpoena? There are procedures in place to do just that very thing. No large corporation is going to take a subpoena at face value without validating it especially Amazon, as you've already stated in your reply to maddude0025.

I fully agree that Amazon has dropped the ball on allowing people to secure their Kindles. However, making Amazon take action just because someone claims their Kindle was stolen just doesn't work (even providing information about who might have it now). Amazon has policies and procedures in place to cover this situation. I understand you may not like those policies and procedures, but they are handling it correctly imo. Asking them to relax those policies and procedures just because they didn't do the front end securing well enough isn't the right answer. Two wrongs don't make a right comes to mind.

Should Amazon do a better job on securing the Kindle - good grief yes....

Good luck with getting your Kindle back.
 
Please re-read my posts again. And then again. And again. Keep re-reading until you gain comprehension of the whole thing, rather than picking and choosing the tidbits that offend you.

Let me give you the highlights:

Kindle has no security whatsoever -> Amazon should update them to prompt for authentication before de-registering or re-registering to a new account -> once de-registered, user-controlled kill-switch no longer available -- sale can proceed -> once registered, user-controlled kill-switch available.

Re-read it several times as requested. What you just said makes a hell of a lot more sense than what you said earlier.:

The article mentions having Amazon exercise a 'kill switch' for the devices. If they're terrified of the PR fallout from that, then they have another solution: give control of the kill switch to the user, after ensuring that the device cannot be re-registered without the registered owner's authorization. The kill switch doesn't even have to be permanent. If the "new" user can satisfy Amazon that they have legal ownership, Amazon can turn it back on and/or re-register it so the new owner can re-enable the device. But the key thing is to not let the device be moved to a new account improperly.

What you just typed is actually a good idea. Leave Amazon out of the kill switch. De-register (Have something in the built-in firmware letting you see it is not registered on the screen, like an About screen showing firmware version and if it is registered, before the sale). Then sell it allowing the new owner to register. *That* actually makes sense.

I'll ignore the last bit about hacking the police as I was merely trying to show Amazon's side, they have no way of knowing you are telling the truth. Instead of rambling you shold have stuck with the de-registering thing, you were ahead then. The last crap just smacks of being trollish so you broke even.

Maybe you should email Amazon about the de-register/re-register registered user kill switch thing. That actually is a good idea.
 
Back
Top