Gabe Newell isn't worried about piracy, and responds to Ubisoft's "95%" quote

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jonneymendoza said:
lots of games come with a demo/beta. BF3 , nba 2k12, fifa 12, PES 12 to name a few. So by your logic, when u go to the cinema and watch a movie, we should only pay for it if we enjoyed the whole movie. if it sucks then we dont pay? haha lol wtf
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Oh sports games! I wasn't aware they were released on PC...as for Battlefield 3...yeah I OWN that. Why? Beta.

And as far as movies go, no everyone goes to the movie theater every time a movie is released and spends $10's of dollars...this is one of those instances that things like RedBox and Netflix come in handy...a single dollar bill for a movie rental that I didn't like? Not a problem...at all...

$60 for a game I didn't like...I'm not made of money...

Any more smart comments that really don't fit the bill?
 
JoeUser said:
Oh sports games! I wasn't aware they were released on PC...as for Battlefield 3...yeah I OWN that. Why? Beta.

And as far as movies go, no everyone goes to the movie theater every time a movie is released and spends $10's of dollars...this is one of those instances that things like RedBox and Netflix come in handy...a single dollar bill for a movie rental that I didn't like? Not a problem...at all...

$60 for a game I didn't like...I'm not made of money...

Any more smart comments that really don't fit the bill?
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I pay £20-£30 for my games. infact, only two games i bought cost me £30, bf3 and skyrim. the rest where £20 or less such as duex ex , fifa, pes, rage, red orchestra 2 etc all bought on release day too.

Sounds like your getting ripped off where you buy your games from lol. o and there are loads of sports games on pc and most are below £20. i got fifa 12 for £16 mate and NBA 2K12 is £14 as well lol.

So Joe, your fiance really died? sorry to hear that but in all honestly you can slag that guy off as he like me clearly DIDDNT know the story behind you getting robbed.
 
some vital stats to ponder on the secret of valve's success, I'm sure this has been posted here before at some point:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/...-buying-games-at-launch-is-a-fools-errand.ars
http://www.shacknews.com/article/57308/valve-left-4-dead-half

The massive Steam holiday sale was also a big win for Valve and its partners. The following holiday sales data was released, showing the sales breakdown organized by price reduction:

- 10% sale = 35% increase in sales (real dollars, not units shipped)

- 25% sale = 245% increase in sales

- 50% sale = 320% increase in sales

- 75% sale = 1470% increase in sales
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this is both valve games and general steam sales, not mp only. we're talking about increases in thousands of a percent sales here, through nothing but convenience and reasonable prices.

the current model of price fixing for all platforms is un-fucking-sustainable, and publishers know it. same thing happened to the music industry when apple jumped in to profit from their stupidity. this has nothing to do with piracy or hardware life cycles, many of them have been around long enough to see it happen in the previous generation, and learned nothing from it (pre-dreamcast/xbox era for you young people). so this is why you're seeing all manner of cannibalistic behavior, like content manipulation, drm, propaganda, etc. it's basic survival instinct for stupid creatures who are about to die (again), while the smart ones adapt and evolve.

the console market is more susceptible to this because they're basically locked into the model, too many people sharing too few pieces of the pie for anything to change quickly, even with such a huge userbase, that's the reason these fools are willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater. at this point it's completely saturated with expensive shitty games that no one wants, and no one wants to buy. it's not as easy for them to say, we'll just have a discount to boost sales, because they have more actual stock with physical copies to move. it's not like steam where any publisher can just decide, we'll bundle all the dlc for a goty or complete pack, because on psn and xbl they are the bitches of sony and microsoft, they can't do anything without their permission and every part has to be sold seperately.

you can tell by what they do, who actually gives a shit about the gaming market in general, and who is here just to make short term profits. certain publishers like ubisoft couldn't care about cannibalising market segments, because they believe they can make more money that way right now. they don't care about the implications down the line, or what they do to retain users for future sales. it's a stupid way to run a business, and shows why they struggle with regional sales (delayed ports, price gouging, fucked up localisation), while valve can somehow profit in russia, one of the regions with the most ubiquitous piracy, by charging less money and not even worrying about sending the fbi to raid cd burning shops .

nobody_here said:
i don't buy his argument

the person who would pirate a game would not give a damn about ease of access, price, availability, or anything else.....they will pirate it regardless

they have one goal, play the game without paying, end of story, Gabe is delusional
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when you look at the situation in the rest of the world, usa is nothing compared to europe and asia, where vendors are selling bootlegs right down the street from legit stores out in the open. "the 95% quote" would actually be plausible there where government control is basically nonexistent to deal with it. yet valve is still somehow making copious amounts of money with low prices and good service?

some day when you have time and money of your own, you will understand how it's possible for paid to be better than free, and why companies that make an effort to provide this value will succeed where others fail.
 
Anyways Demo and pirating is not the only way to find out if a game is decent or not. there are plenty of "risk takers" that will just buy the game blindly and try it. Yes you cant rely on gamespot/ign reviews but one things for sure, you can rely on "user reviews" to an extent. you can AT LEAST find out if the game is buggy or not without pirating and without a demo.

Plus seriously why are we discussing about buggy games? every persons computer is different. one mans bug ridden game doesnt mean your pc will witness the same bugs.

Plus do u honestly think many "pirate to try and then buy if they like" ?na they dont. i bet 90% of pirates dont

Why buy skyrim now when your pirated copy plays it fine and you get next to no bonus things/points for buying the retail copy?

see where im coming from?
 
people pirate, they even pay for it. there's a dude at job selling burned DVD movies for 7$ a piece lol. I know people with excellent jobs that does pirate everything because they know how and were to go...

did I did it, off coyrsr, on c64, on Amiga, on dreamcast and on PC. but since digital distribution, I buy them,because bought games are easy to patch get srcure me with onlinr multi player. I also buy movies on bluray and music on iTunes..

personnaly I prefer paying 50$ for a game than 200$ for a hockey game ticket...
 
jonneymendoza said:
Anyways Demo and pirating is not the only way to find out if a game is decent or not. there are plenty of "risk takers" that will just buy the game blindly and try it. Yes you cant rely on gamespot/ign reviews but one things for sure, you can rely on "user reviews" to an extent. you can AT LEAST find out if the game is buggy or not without pirating and without a demo.

Plus seriously why are we discussing about buggy games? every persons computer is different. one mans bug ridden game doesnt mean your pc will witness the same bugs.

Plus do u honestly think many "pirate to try and then buy if they like" ?na they dont. i bet 90% of pirates dont

Why buy skyrim now when your pirated copy plays it fine and you get next to no bonus things/points for buying the retail copy?

see where im coming from?
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patches/updates, dlc, achievements, community, support, reliable online storage on demand, do I need to go on? this kind of features have value to most gamers, that ddl service is providing FOR FREE only with the cost of the game. what part of this are we not understanding here? if you don't buy the game, you don't get the service, simple really. so people like valve will provide this incentive, while other publishers continue to shut paying customers out, with more and more bullshit like hostile drm and price gouging.
 
I would like to remind everyone of one of the rules you agreed to when you signed up


(18) You will not discuss, suggest, engage, or encourage any ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES. Links provided to locations that deal with any such activity are also expressly forbidden.
 
Lots of assumptions about pirates here and most of them are simply unsupported by any kind of evidence.

I did a survey on hardforum a while back to gather some stats and the results where in line with what I'd expect, most people have pirated at some point and almost no one pirates all their games, almost everyone does a mixture of pirating and buying, the question here should be what is it that determines the difference between a sale and no sale?

This idea that piracy is the cause of Ubisofts failing, or any developers failing, is just false, it's demonstrably false. Logically if piracy was the cause then we'd expect to see it effect all developers equally right?

How do you explain that valve are a thriving business who's CEO publicly admits piracy for them is not a problem? How do you explain that the PC game market is healthy, is growing year on and year and accounts for a very large overall profit for some of the biggest businesses in the industry? These issues simply aren't congruent with a market which is suffering because of piracy.

What it comes down to is that piracy isn't the cause, the cause is bad games, and piracy is symptom of that issue. You don't treat symptoms, you treat causes.

Honestly who cares if bad developers go bust because of piracy, in fact isn't that a good thing? When bad developers get less money we have more money to spend on good developers, every time we buy a game and we feel like we've been scammed but can't get our money back, that's $60 we can't spend on another, better game.
 
PrincessFrosty said:
Well...

I've been gaming for over 15 years on the PC
I've got over 200 games on steam, including most of valves titles
I deliberately don't buy Ubisoft titles because of DRM

Do the god damn maths Ubi.
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You are not alone. I hear "Ubi", and immediately assume it is going to be a half assed port only grudgingly ported over to PC, and/or be burdened with some ridiculous DRM scheme or another. I sweep it off the radar at that point.

Piracy is an issue, but not nearly as big of one as Ubi claims. While I am certain that at least some pirated copies are lost sales, I am equally certain that not all are lost sales, and that I, like Ubisoft, have no idea whatsoever where the actual lost sales numbers fall between 0% and 100%.
 
Thank you Gabe for reminding me that there are sane people still in the industry.
 
PrincessFrosty said:
What it comes down to is that piracy isn't the cause, the cause is bad games, and piracy is symptom of that issue. You don't treat symptoms, you treat causes.

Honestly who cares if bad developers go bust because of piracy, in fact isn't that a good thing? When bad developers get less money we have more money to spend on good developers, every time we buy a game and we feel like we've been scammed but can't get our money back, that's $60 we can't spend on another, better game.
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I feel like I'm missing the point here.

If I buy a game and hate it, I will be less inclined to buy another game from the same developer. My questions are therefore:

1) Why would I bother pirating games from that developer since I'm probably not going to like the game?

2) Why would I pirate a game from a good developer, which isn't going to do that developer any good whatsoever?

Why would I ever feel entitled to pirate a game? Why can't I wait until the price drops and buy both?
 
eggrock said:
I feel like I'm missing the point here.

If I buy a game and hate it, I will be less inclined to buy another game from the same developer. My questions are therefore:
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This idea is sort of plausible in theory but in practice almost everyone has more games they desire to buy than money to buy them, games are expensive and numerous. if you're extremely wealthy then fantastic, just buy everything and wipe your arse with the stuff you don't like.

The rest of us who have to be picky to some degree and everytime we buy a game we don't like, that could be money better spent on a game we do like.

1) Why would I bother pirating games from that developer since I'm probably not going to like the game?

2) Why would I pirate a game from a good developer, which isn't going to do that developer any good whatsoever?
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In both cases pirating the game allows you to see how the final product runs on your system, if there's any game breaking bugs, if the game is any fun etc.

Most games do not have demos these days and even demos can be misleading.

Why would I ever feel entitled to pirate a game? Why can't I wait until the price drops and buy both?
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Since when do people need to feel entitled to do something in order to do it? People do what they think is best for them, if that's to pirate a game in order to fairly and accurately judge quality in order to ensure they're happy with their purchases then they're going to do that.

If developers actually want to mitigate that problem they need to release games tailored for the PC with minimal bug and maximum performance, build up a reputation as a business who can actually do things right, just like valve did, and they even acknowledge it, Gabe talks about generating brand loyalty which they clearly have and Ubisoft clearly do not have.

It all comes back to the quality of the game, there's no escaping it.
 
As much as it pains me to even suggest this: Something like an OnLive *could* fill in that "can't rent PC games" gap.

Shoot, even Steam and the other digital outlets like that could probably jury rig a setup if the developers could figure out a clean way where that "rental" would work for x amount of time and when that time is up, that thing can't work anymore and be basically stolen.

Easier said than done, I know.
 
mas said:
patches/updates, dlc, achievements, community, support, reliable online storage on demand, do I need to go on? this kind of features have value to most gamers, that ddl service is providing FOR FREE only with the cost of the game. what part of this are we not understanding here? if you don't buy the game, you don't get the service, simple really. so people like valve will provide this incentive, while other publishers continue to shut paying customers out, with more and more bullshit like hostile drm and price gouging.
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you can download special files that allow u to continue to play on a patched game and DLC also gets pirates. Achievements? no one cares when you can play th actual game for free without DRM.

community? what community? speaking about a game and taking part in say umm skyrims thread? how does playinga pirated copy of skyrim pevent you from takling part in skyrims community?

Support for what? you dont need support for most pirated games because there is no DRM that can mess up your game and there is no cd key or account that u MUST use to play the game either. so less problems on pirated copies mate.

So please tell me some real reasons why someone woudl benefit in buying skyrim when there DRM free version of skyrim works perfect ?

IMO there is simply no valid positive legit reason to pirate. most and i mean most do it because the pirates copy is umm "free" . simple as that. nothing to do with "i wana test the game before i buy it " nonsense. most do it purely because they get to play a game for free.
 
You guys didn't see this when Crosshairs posted it, so apparently we need to say it louder:

Stop admitting that you are currently, or even once have, gotten content illegally.

The rule is there for a reason and it's for your benefit as well as the forums.
 
jonneymendoza said:
that same person pirates console games too with ease and doesnt give a fuck about xbox live/psn
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thats correct. I realize there is no sense trying to convince a bunch of pc gaming geeks on a pc enthusiast forum board that there is anything negative to be said about pc gaming......i get it....but it's fact, people will pirate games no matter what they cost or what platform they are on. That was my point. Gabe can do all he wants, but what I see as the largest type of pirate is the ones who could buy the games if they wanted to, but can get it for free so there's no reason, will continue to pirate the games, no matter what.

Gabes "solution" only help the small percentage of subgroup of pirateers, those who truly want to buy the game but cannot. And one could easily argue that if they can afford a broadband connection and a pc to play todays new games, they can afford to buy the game. But even in these cases, that person has to make a moral decision at some point to steal no matter what the reason. Once they cross that boundary and find out how easy on their wallet it is, well, those people typically don't suddenly get their moral compass in check and decide to go back to paying for games to "support the developers."

For the most part, those who pirate, no matter what their reason, will continue to do so. They may buy the few AAA titles that they want to play online the most, hence why you guys point to huge pc game sales as proof they aren't pirating "anymore". But for every one game they buy, they pirate 10.
 
Plague_Injected said:
The type of pirate you outlined exists but it's only one section of the actual population that pirate games. Some do it to check the game out in lieu of any demo or legal rental service, some do it to circumvent anti-consumer DRM, some do it to send a "fuck you" to the publisher over certain aspects of the game (consolisation) or its sales model (on-disc day-one DLC, regional price-fixing, etc), some do it because it takes anywhere between 6-18 months for a game to be released and localised in certain countries (Newell has cited this reason several times) and there are those who pirate because it is illegal to sell, purchase, import and/or distribute the game in their country due to excessive violence or sexual content.
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Those idealistic Pirates only exist on internet message boards.

nobody_here said:
they have one goal, play the game without paying, end of story
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In real life, this is what I see more often. People want to spend their money on other shit.
 
pigwalk said:
In real life, this is what I see more often. People want to spend their money on other shit.
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This is anecdotal, we need actual statistics to say this for sure, I have anecdotal accounts that tell the exact opposite story, this is the problem with anecdotal "evidence".
 
PrincessFrosty said:
This is anecdotal, we need actual statistics to say this for sure, I have anecdotal accounts that tell the exact opposite story, this is the problem with anecdotal "evidence".
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it's just true, find another flag to fly, you don't need statistics to know it's true......people are cheap asses, most people once they find out something can easily be had for free, will continue to get it for free
 
nobody_here said:
i don't buy his argument

the person who would pirate a game would not give a damn about ease of access, price, availability, or anything else.....they will pirate it regardless

they have one goal, play the game without paying, end of story, Gabe is delusional
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You should, and i do.

some people do download the game to try it due to no demo - then buy it.. love to see those stats.

Some people do download the game with no intention to buy it also, both are true

but the 2nd can not be related to loss of profits in any way either since no one can say 1million pirates copies = 1million lost sales, or that Piracy is the reason a game sold badly

Proof shows a well made game makes millions in profit.


well, those people typically don't suddenly get their moral compass in check and decide to go back to paying for games to "support the developers."
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Wrong again. Yes, some buy AAA titles, but that is the issue... most games are barely D titles.... most games are crap and wouldn't of been purchased anyways.... and this is where companies like UbiSoft come in and claim the game did badly because of pirates NOT because the game flat out sucked...they wont ever admit that!

Why do you think some companies, more and more, do not release demo's any more? or let review sites not paid by them.. do reviews? because they know a review can tank their sales and game...

Mean while companies like Valve and EA now release beta's to the public, get the hype going and watch sales soar through the roof for most anything they release.

Q-BZ said:
As much as it pains me to even suggest this: Something like an OnLive *could* fill in that "can't rent PC games" gap.

Shoot, even Steam and the other digital outlets like that could probably jury rig a setup if the developers could figure out a clean way where that "rental" would work for x amount of time and when that time is up, that thing can't work anymore and be basically stolen.

Easier said than done, I know.
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Steam technical could do this, they already do events like Free Weekends for games and then it is over.
 
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nobody_here said:
it's just true, find another flag to fly, you don't need statistics to know it's true......people are cheap asses, most people once they find out something can easily be had for free, will continue to get it for free
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Even if what you say is true, then it's also true those same people wouldn't have bought the game anyway...Ubisoft gets nothing either way. So what the fuck is your point?
 
Q-BZ said:
As much as it pains me to even suggest this: Something like an OnLive *could* fill in that "can't rent PC games" gap.

Shoot, even Steam and the other digital outlets like that could probably jury rig a setup if the developers could figure out a clean way where that "rental" would work for x amount of time and when that time is up, that thing can't work anymore and be basically stolen.

Easier said than done, I know.
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Steam does do those "Free weekend" things sometimes. I think more of those with more (newer) games could help the situation.
 
MavericK96 said:
Steam does do those "Free weekend" things sometimes. I think more of those with more (newer) games could help the situation.
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I thought I had seen something like that. Heh, I should try it sometime myself.

That kind of concept expanded and obviously done carefully could be huge.

Here's yet another area wide open for Valve to seize an opportunity and do PC gaming and gamers a service.
 
Steam's Free Weekends are a great idea thanks to which I have been able to make my mind up on a few titles. It is a shame Vavle does not do them more often though (that being said I guess it's more to do with the editors/developers will more than Valve's).
 
MavericK96 said:
Steam does do those "Free weekend" things sometimes. I think more of those with more (newer) games could help the situation.
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yeah those were the few weekends i'd turn on steam when they did the free weekend stuff, i know they did it like 5 or 6 times with MW2 as well.
 
jonneymendoza said:
lots of games come with a demo/beta. BF3 , nba 2k12, fifa 12, PES 12 to name a few. So by your logic, when u go to the cinema and watch a movie, we should only pay for it if we enjoyed the whole movie. if it sucks then we dont pay? haha lol wtf
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BF3 was not available in Demo/Free beta. You had to buy the game to play the beta.
 
piscian18 said:
Where are you getting that? You had to pre-order to get in on PC as far as I know.
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You're wrong.

I played the hell out of the beta and I never bought or pre-ordered anything.

I loved the beta, but I hate it now. I wish I had never bought it. Funny how that goes. Tried it before buying it and liked it, and then I end up hating it.
 
I'm with him^

I didn't buy it or pre order, and had beta access. And for you people that didn't see this link, or are joining in late, this quote below is some honest, relevant, real [H]ard stats.

PrincessFrosty said:
http://img809.imageshack.us/img809/3097/results100.png

Some basic stats:

86% of people have pirated a PC game
1% pirate all their games
7% pirate all their games except ones they have to pay for (e.g for multiplayer)

The top reasons for pirating:
52% - To try a game you wouldn't otherwise buy just in case you like it
45% - To test a game before you buy it
37% - Because you didn't have enough money to purchase

Of the games people pirate
An average of 24% of games people never finish are later paid for
An average of 41% of games people liked enough to finish are later paid for
An average of 59% of games people thing are worth the money are later paid for

24% of people use piracy as a device to play games now and buy when the price drops

Of all people that pirate games the average digital distribution catalogue (e.g steam) is 59% games they've pirated and later bought at discount.

The threat of internet being disconnected would only dissuade 12% of people
36% of people would look for better ways to hide their identity
A Massive 91% of everyone understand what both web proxies and VPN are

I personally take away from this survey that:
  • Most people have pirated
  • Hardly anyone pirates all of their games, most people also buy games.
  • Gamers WANT to buy games, they are given the option to get for free or pay and given the opportunity and circumstance they will pay for games they like.
  • Overwhelmingly the biggest reasons for pirating is to try before you buy.
  • By far the single most important factor if people will buy your game is IF IT'S ANY GOOD! There is a very strong trend of people buying more and more games after they have pirated them if the game is worth completing or perceived to be good value.
  • A massive number of digital distribution sales are attributed to people who have pirated games in the past and legitimately want to buy copies of these games at a discounted price.
  • Anti piracy laws and actions taken by ISPs will be almostly completely uneffective at trying to stop piracy, users smart enough to pirate already know the tools they need to circumvent blocking and tracking by ISPs. Threats do little dissuade people, it causes the majorety to simply look for better ways not to get caught.

**Mod Edit** No problem with the survey or the thread, but remember guys, we do not allow the discussion of illegal activities. Talking about piracy's effect on the industry is 100% OK, but admitting to being an active or former pirate is not allowed. We don't ask, so please don't tell. Believe it or not I don't actually like having to get on members cases about rule violations. ;) -Oldie
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big_aug said:
You're wrong.

I played the hell out of the beta and I never bought or pre-ordered anything.

I loved the beta, but I hate it now. I wish I had never bought it. Funny how that goes. Tried it before buying it and liked it, and then I end up hating it.
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weird I never heard anything about there being an open beta. Here's where it said you had to buy MOH to get in. Strange I never saw any threads about the beta ever being open until now. Whatever.

http://www.medalofhonor.com/battlefield3
 
Tbh it also helps that valve has never put out a truly shitty game. Ubisoft on the other hand...well.
I think I've bought the entire valve library at this point and I dont regret a single purchase.
 
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