Gabe Newell Interview

[pelo]

Did you read the article? Gabe said the SteamBox is running Linux so everything will just be OpenGL etc etc

I would be very surprised if Valve can drum up the hardware numbers to sell it at $300 especially when they invite every other OEM to do it as well.

Yes...

I see your mistake, though. You're assuming that developing a game is just using openGL or DX as an API. No... it's not like that... at all.

They do use these standardized APIs, but they also have room(s) where they've got a multitude of hardware as a test platform. Why would they need this? Well, just because you're using an API that stretches across hardware/platforms doesn't necessarily mean your game works on a completely different set of hardware (and respective drivers). This happens all the time in driver releases. nVidia or Intel will release a new update that addresses a specific glitch in a specific class of hardware for a specific game. The developers have to account for that stuff before it ships. With PC gaming it's a Sisyphean task given the plethora of hardware and exponentially higher hardware configurations. A 'standard API' doesn't account for any of these things.

Furthermore, AMD or nVidia release a GPU that has a set amount of theoretical GFLOPs; I say theoretical (and this bit's important), because that's the theoretical max throughput of that specific GPU. It's impossible to reach the max but with enough attention and time (and lots of work) you can squeeze more and more out of that GPU. So when you're buying your GTX680 and looking at those amazing frame rates, most people think "Wow, is this GPU fast!" when a few of us are asking "Christ, is this all they managed to get out of it?" A 7970 has 4.3 billion transistors! There should be no reason why any game you're playing has less than 60 FPS. The reason some games perform better than others is the programming. That's why 'The way it's meant to be played' games perform better on nVidia hardware (especially hardware and drivers that was given to the developers) while 'Gaming Evolved' games play better on AMD hardware.

This isn't only an issue in PC gaming but also elsewhere as well. Android is a perfect example. If you go to a serious Android developer, you'll see they've got a multitude of devices and hardware configurations. Despite Java being a "write once, run anywhere" language, that doesn't mean your software will behave nicely on X or Y hardware. You need to test, tweak and optimize. This is also one of the reasons why Apple has "faster" applications and even a larger selection of apps.

So, no, it isn't just code and slap a price tag on it and ship. If you do that you end up with games like Rage.

 

[next-Jin]

I think what is being said is that atm there is no standard on PC. Right now they are targeting consoles and then looking at PCs after the fact.

If the official Steam box specs are a core i3 with a 7850 then it would give developers a baseline their games targeted to that platform.

I would imagine it would also be possible to have Amd or nvidia specific drivers as well.

I'm just arm chairing though, I have no idea of it would be feasible lol.

 

[dgz]

Please post a video online showing you playing two instances of BF3 on two monitors connected to your PC.

The only way I see a gaming "server" like Gabe said is having a 16+ core system with a dedicated GPU for each output. So basically, you will get to spend thousands on a system just to be able to have multiple people play on it, or $300 for a console and just deal with playing on the same screen.

My point is currently I couldn't do that with a billion cores, too. Not really a hardware issue per se.

 

[Sublym3]

Yes...

I see your mistake, though.

Not a mistake, I know there is more than the API. The API's are usually cited as why the PC doesn't dominate everything else the way it is expected (they are high above the metal). So I was using them as my example.

I just a disagree with you that there will be a $300 box that will come out and every developer immediately start developing specifically for it and give everyone else (i.e. most people on this site and other tech sites, funnily enough the only people who know or care about yet) a 'lesser' experience.

Steam does not tend to use their domiance for anything, they are slow to add features to Steam and lately they have been getting more competition.

I would like to see Valve release games (or buy companies that are making games then release those), rather than try change something with PC Gaming that doesn't need changing.

 

[pelo]

I just a disagree with you that there will be a $300 box that will come out and every developer immediately start developing specifically for it and give everyone else (i.e. most people on this site and other tech sites, funnily enough the only people who know or care about yet) a 'lesser' experience.

Not a lesser experience, but a sub-optimal one given the hardware specifications. We're at a point where a developer spending an extra couple of weeks on a game, tuning it to a specific set of hardware would net more benefits than Intel and AMD doing years of work and wasting hundreds of millions of dollars.

I would like to see Valve release games (or buy companies that are making games then release those), rather than try change something with PC Gaming that doesn't need changing.

Doesn't need changing? I don't know about you, but I'm not happy with DX9 ports that have a rough time running at playable FPS on modern hardware on a 1080p screen. If a Steambox is the closest thing to a PC that developers can target for then I'm all for it because we'd all be better off.

 

[spacin9]

This sounds like the 3DO machine and how many companies made them. The failure of the 3DO was it's price of $700 for something 20 years old today. Not to forget the crappy game library.

Shockwave was an awesome game for the time.
Loved my 3DO. Best console. Ever.

 

[Semantics]

Not a lesser experience, but a sub-optimal one given the hardware specifications. We're at a point where a developer spending an extra couple of weeks on a game, tuning it to a specific set of hardware would net more benefits than Intel and AMD doing years of work and wasting hundreds of millions of dollars.



Doesn't need changing? I don't know about you, but I'm not happy with DX9 ports that have a rough time running at playable FPS on modern hardware on a 1080p screen. If a Steambox is the closest thing to a PC that developers can target for then I'm all for it because we'd all be better off.

I'm sorry but how will selling pc's that run linux and wont have any more game titles then windows steam be any more worthwhile for companies to port games over? Are you suggesting that game developers they make it a linux steam exclusive? It's all about money how does the steambox bring extra revenue potential to the market vs windows platform? When it's not a unified design meaning they have to develop for a wide range of pc's bring the cost up slightly and again dealing with half assed ports.

 

[Sublym3]

Doesn't need changing? I don't know about you, but I'm not happy with DX9 ports that have a rough time running at playable FPS on modern hardware on a 1080p screen. If a Steambox is the closest thing to a PC that developers can target for then I'm all for it because we'd all be better off.

I don't care how the game comes to me, I don't care if it is DX9,10,11, OpenGL or even Flash. If it is a good game I will play it. I am happy to turn off settings to get a smoother game if need be, but very few games require that and those that do are already cut down on closed systems.

There are much more important things that need to change in PC Gaming other than one e-tailer making their own console.

 

[gaspah]

what the hell is everyone's problem with windows 8? I've been using it for months and i love it.

 

[pelo]

I'm sorry but how will selling pc's that run linux and wont have any more game titles then windows steam be any more worthwhile for companies to port games over? Are you suggesting that game developers they make it a linux steam exclusive? It's all about money how does the steambox bring extra revenue potential to the market vs windows platform? When it's not a unified design meaning they have to develop for a wide range of pc's bring the cost up slightly and again dealing with half assed ports.

They would be targeting relatively modern PC hardware with M+KB support rather than decades-old consoles.

And openGL allows developers to use an API that stretches across a wide variety of devices, both PC and not. There would be no Linux exclusives like there are Microsoft exclusives. There would be no exclusives at all, in fact.

 

[octoberasian]

They would be targeting relatively modern PC hardware with M+KB support rather than decades-old consoles.

And openGL allows developers to use an API that stretches across a wide variety of devices, both PC and not. There would be no Linux exclusives like there are Microsoft exclusives. There would be no exclusives at all, in fact.

Everyone in the thread needs to realize that one fact. The Steambox is about bringing a modern gaming PC to the living room of a possible single configuration giving mid-range PC gaming performance. That's what I'm getting from the interview with Gabe.

By having the Steambox use Ubuntu, it's also going to, hopefully, push developers to use OpenGL in their games. Or, hopefully, help popularize or increase its usage in games. Unlike traditional gaming consoles where games are programmed close to baremetal, the Steambox is a traditional PC in every sense of the word. It still has an OS and APIs between the applications and games and the hardware. There will be no such thing as Linux-exclusive games because the APIs and programming language are cross-platform-- Windows, OSX, Linux, and even Android and iOS.

We're looking at programming APIs and languages such as:

• C/C++
• gcc
• Qt Framework (instead of .NET Framework that is Windows-only)
• OpenGL (instead of DirectX)
• OpenCL (instead of DirectCompute)

Games using those above can be run under Windows, OSX, and Linux of any hardware configuration. Game developers don't have to rely solely on DirectX and limit themselves to Windows platforms. Using a more cross-platform set of APIs and programming languages, developers can have their games reach a wider audience and increase its market share. It's a much better alternative to DirectX and Microsoft Windows-only programming APIs.

 

[pelo]

It's actually beneficial to the end user and to the developer. We don't live in an MS only world anymore where the desktop PC dominates, thus having an open standardized API (and the languages) means developers can now target many more people with their games and make more money while the end user would have more variety regardless of what platform they've got.

And, yea, it's also a PC. It isn't a locked down console with no functionality but an actual real PC.

 

[/usr/sbin]

I want to add to that person's post that I do not miss the days of DOS and all of the memory nonsense to get a game working. I am tired of tweaking and adjusting. I just want to game on my PC like I do on my consoles and not jump through hoops. Steam seems to have made a lot of past issues go away, at least for me. If they can make a cheap computer that you plug into the TV and start gaming that will be going right besides my Xbox and PS3. Seems like the best of both worlds with possible minor tradeoffs.

Your hell will be tweaking QEMM for eternity!

 

[DrDoug]

Your hell will be tweaking QEMM for eternity!

I remember spending days trying different config.sys and autoexec.bat setups that loaded drivers in different sequences to free up as much of the base RAM as possible and configure the high memory area for specific games. The high memory area was a real 'blast' to load drivers into. You had to check if whole areas were being wasted because of the loading sequence since you were the one who had to take the time and optimize driver loading if you wanted it done right. Some games required EMS, some required XMS, some video cards required including specific memory ranges while others required excluding them. I used QEMM too, and that just added to the 'fun'. I used CHOICE to set up boot files that let me select which memory configuration I wanted to run. At one point I think I had twelve custom boot configurations to choose from...lol!

For some reason I enjoyed doing it.

 

[octoberasian]

Your hell will be tweaking QEMM for eternity!

I remember spending days trying different config.sys and autoexec.bat setups that loaded drivers in different sequences to free up as much of the base RAM as possible and configure the high memory area for specific games. The high memory area was a real 'blast' to load drivers into. You had to check if whole areas were being wasted because of the loading sequence since you were the one who had to take the time and optimize driver loading if you wanted it done right. Some games required EMS, some required XMS, some video cards required including specific memory ranges while others required excluding them. I used QEMM too, and that just added to the 'fun'. I used CHOICE to set up boot files that let me select which memory configuration I wanted to run. At one point I think I had twelve custom boot configurations to choose from...lol!

For some reason I enjoyed doing it.

Reading both of your posts made me feel like an old man at 32 years old. LOL

Hard to believe it's been so long since the DOS days. Look at where are at now.

 

[DrDoug]

Reading both of your posts made me feel like an old man at 32 years old. LOL

Hard to believe it's been so long since the DOS days. Look at where are at now.

It made you feel old? Think how I feel, I hit legal drinking age when you were born! Yeah, the shit sure has changed from when I first got in to computers. Swapping out motherboard cache chips, jumpers for everything, using debug to set up your MFM ISA HDD controller/drive, testing and setting drive interleave, it seemed all so much more manual then compared to today. Rolling your own then was a real adventure, that's for sure.

That's why I still like to abuse myself in a CLI to this day. I started the abuse young.

 

[octoberasian]

It made you feel old? Think how I feel, I hit legal drinking age when you were born! Yeah, the shit sure has changed from when I first got in to computers. Swapping out motherboard cache chips, jumpers for everything, using debug to set up your MFM ISA HDD controller/drive, testing and setting drive interleave, it seemed all so much more manual then compared to today. Rolling your own then was a real adventure, that's for sure.

That's why I still like to abuse myself in a CLI to this day. I started the abuse young.

But, it sure made you appreciate the computer a lot more and learn how a lot of the internals work. Everything now (or nearly everything) is now plug-and-play and automatic.