G-sync On vs. Off in FPS games? (my observation).

Absalom

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I don't get this, though:
"Using GSync on a FreeSync monitor - never use Vertical Sync in Control Panel or Game because it will just be Vertical Sync. Real GSync monitors with GSync modules the Nvidia Control panel Vertical Sync works with it and is different then just pure VSync."

How is it different between true Gsync and Gsync compatible monitors?
From a latency standpoint, it isn't different. Even with a GSync Module, once you near the refresh rate the latency is almost as bad as VSync. That's why it's recommended to cap the framerate well below the refresh rate.

However, in the case of GSync Module + VSync On, there is frametime variance compensation going on behind the scenes. This can't be concerted with VSync Off even within the GSync range.

The video does not go into frametime variance, only input latency which is completely different. Without a study on the effects of frametime variance, the statement of not enabling VSync (i.e. VSync Off) for a FreeSync panel applies, since there is no measured benefit with VSync On. Now whether that's true across the board, is up for debate.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Gsync / Freesync, its all the same variable refresh rate technology.
Except it isn't.
I'm not going to pay Nvidia a ridiculous amount of money just to see what my eyes already tell me. Gsync is a marketing ploy through and through, but I am greatful that they have implemented its compatibility with freesync monitors into their drivers.
You not being able to see the difference does not equate to the technology being a marketing ploy.
 

Absalom

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You not being able to see the difference does not equate to the technology being a marketing ploy.
I typically ignore the rabble that stroll in spouting nonsense, but pretty much my thoughts exactly.

There are GSync module benefits not even discussed in this thread. Such as variable overdrive, which I'm a big fan of since a lot of panels suck at it even statically.

Those panels Asus put out with GSync + ULMB (ELMB)? That's black magic. If they ever get around to perfecting that...

There's a reason Nvidia has invested a lot of time and effort to QA anything that wants to be labeled "GSync Compatible": there's a ton of crap panels out there.
 

Retsam

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Gsync / Freesync, its all the same variable refresh rate technology. I'm not going to pay Nvidia a ridiculous amount of money just to see what my eyes already tell me. Gsync is a marketing ploy through and through, but I am greatful that they have implemented its compatibility with freesync monitors into their drivers.
One is software, one is hardware. I used to game on a 240hz g-sync monitor and I remember it being "smoother" than my freesync XF252QX. Youre making some random assumptions there with no experience...No offense. :) I always love randos making comments with no experience or proof to back it up, just sayin. Anyways, to be sure I ordered a new g-sync monitor(because I forgot how it felt) to test right against this one so. I will know for sure in like 10 days or so.
 

Mchart

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If you haven't recently used the same hardware gsync panel compared to software gsync/freesync on the same system it's hard to know. However, if it's pretty obvious if you use them back to back on the same system. Gsync hardware just feels smoother. No better way to describe it.
 

jologskyblues

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Worth mentioning that hardware G-sync and g-sync compatible guarantees vrr ranges for the bottom to top refresh rate range of the monitors. I think freesync 2/freesync premium certification is supposed to do that as well.

Ordinary Freesync on the other hand, has virtually no QA and monitor manufacturers just throw it in their products to tick a marketing checkbox which is why the vrr quality varies wildly across models, with the majority being pretty useless with very narrow vrr ranges. Nvidia tested around 500 freesync models and only around 20-30 passed their certification tests last time i checked.
 

noko

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Thank you, that's a great video.

Chill and NVIDIA's limiter seem to work as good as RTSS, which is very good if no in-game limiters are available and eliminates the need for extra utilities.

I don't get this, though:
"Using GSync on a FreeSync monitor - never use Vertical Sync in Control Panel or Game because it will just be Vertical Sync. Real GSync monitors with GSync modules the Nvidia Control panel Vertical Sync works with it and is different then just pure VSync."

How is it different between true Gsync and Gsync compatible monitors?
I am going to have to check that out, it is my understanding NV panel VSync with a GSync Monitor is it's own thing, working with the module and not the same as what regular VSync does. Since a FreeSync monitor does not have the GSync module it will just be plain Vertical Sync which would give you the negative side effects of VSync such as increase lag and stuttering. I thought the video explained that as well dealing with the Geforce card and a GSync compatible monitor.
 

noko

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If you haven't recently used the same hardware gsync panel compared to software gsync/freesync on the same system it's hard to know. However, if it's pretty obvious if you use them back to back on the same system. Gsync hardware just feels smoother. No better way to describe it.
[H]ardOCP blind test between basically equivalent quality monitors, one being GSync and the other FreeSync final results indicated otherwise, more folks thought the FreeSync experience was better.

No doubt there are some poor FreeSync monitors out there, probably some poor GSync monitors as well. If looking at the technology, they can perform rather close to each other. AMD FreeSyncII standard and available monitors support HDR and VRR way before Nvidia had GSync Modules that could do HDR and GSync. For awhile you could buy a number of different HDR FreeSync monitors and no HDR GSync monitors, first ones where the $2000 4k ones :D, which was utterly ridiculas at the time. I really don't see any significant advantage for the hardware GSync monitors and expect them to be a dying breed in the future.
 

Mchart

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[H]ardOCP blind test between basically equivalent quality monitors, one being GSync and the other FreeSync final results indicated otherwise, more folks thought the FreeSync experience was better.

No doubt there are some poor FreeSync monitors out there, probably some poor GSync monitors as well. If looking at the technology, they can perform rather close to each other. AMD FreeSyncII standard and available monitors support HDR and VRR way before Nvidia had GSync Modules that could do HDR and GSync. For awhile you could buy a number of different HDR FreeSync monitors and no HDR GSync monitors, first ones where the $2000 4k ones :D, which was utterly ridiculas at the time. I really don't see any significant advantage for the hardware GSync monitors and expect them to be a dying breed in the future.
I'm not aware of a single monitor that is HDR 144hz outside of the G-Sync Ultimate HDR displays which is only the Acer/Asus sharing the same panel. There is the Asus 43'' one that is G-Sync compatible, but not Freesync, and it's accuracy isn't as good.

You're literally just making stuff up to support your opinion. There are a few 120hz and 60hz panels that are only up to 600 nits as well for HDR, but none come close to the G-Sync HDR panels. The G-Sync HDR panels are also the only panels supporting 1000+ Nits along with a 120hz+ refresh rate. I'll point out that any panel that isn't at least 1000 nits isn't going to deliver a very good HDR experience for reasons that I don't need to delve into.

And if you think it's a waste of money, that's fine, but I can assure you the X27 is stunning.
 
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Retsam

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[H]ardOCP blind test between basically equivalent quality monitors, one being GSync and the other FreeSync final results indicated otherwise, more folks thought the FreeSync experience was better.

No doubt there are some poor FreeSync monitors out there, probably some poor GSync monitors as well. If looking at the technology, they can perform rather close to each other. AMD FreeSyncII standard and available monitors support HDR and VRR way before Nvidia had GSync Modules that could do HDR and GSync. For awhile you could buy a number of different HDR FreeSync monitors and no HDR GSync monitors, first ones where the $2000 4k ones :D, which was utterly ridiculas at the time. I really don't see any significant advantage for the hardware GSync monitors and expect them to be a dying breed in the future.
Interesting. Id like to see that blind test. From what ive seen and heard from others, many people seem to like g-sync better. Ill be testing myself shortly.
 

noko

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I'm not aware of a single monitor that is HDR 144hz outside of the G-Sync Ultimate HDR displays which is only the Acer/Asus sharing the same panel. There is the Asus 43'' one that is G-Sync compatible, but not Freesync, and it's accuracy isn't as good.

You're literally just making stuff up to support your opinion. There are a few 120hz and 60hz panels that are only up to 600 nits as well for HDR, but none come close to the G-Sync HDR panels. The G-Sync HDR panels are also the only panels supporting 1000+ Nits along with a 120hz+ refresh rate. I'll point out that any panel that isn't at least 1000 nits isn't going to deliver a very good HDR experience for reasons that I don't need to delve into.

And if you think it's a waste of money, that's fine, but I can assure you the X27 is stunning.
Right now that is true but when FreeSync II came out, Samsung and others supported HDR and VRR and Nvidia had only the 4K top end one's that did. Not making anything up. I was looking for a HDR/GSync monitor before I bought the SamSung - none were available except the $2000 price tag ones. I would say there was a 6+ month period where that was the case.
 

noko

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So what monitor do you have that is 120hz+ & HDR1000?
In sig and it is only HDR600 and not HDR1000, 144hz. What I am looking for in the future is HDR1000+, 4K+, OLED but may be fine with QLED, HDMI 2.1 or DP 2.0
 

IdiotInCharge

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between basically equivalent quality monitors
Two different panels with two different panel technologies. The test showed that Freesync is quite likely 'good enough' for most, but the monitors were subjectively different on top of being objectively different.
 

noko

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Two different panels with two different panel technologies. The test showed that Freesync is quite likely 'good enough' for most, but the monitors were subjectively different on top of being objectively different.
With the cheaper one winning :D
 

Armenius

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Interesting. Id like to see that blind test. From what ive seen and heard from others, many people seem to like g-sync better. Ill be testing myself shortly.
Article is gone, but the video is still available. It is important to note that the Freesync display used was a VA panel (C27HG70), while the G-SYNC was a TN panel (PG27VQ). The VA panel is going to look objectively better, so there was a bias built into this "blind" test. It was not the fault of Kyle, as he explains in the opening portion of the video.

 

Retsam

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Article is gone, but the video is still available. It is important to note that the Freesync display used was a VA panel (C27HG70), while the G-SYNC was a TN panel (PG27VQ). The VA panel is going to look objectively better, so there was a bias built into this "blind" test. It was not the fault of Kyle, as he explains in the opening portion of the video.

Interesting. I watched it. Unfortunately I dont think this helped at all. Everyone focused on the visual differences between the panels. You would kind of need to compare TN panels because VA is a different thing. Anyways, the only differences should be subtle smoothness between freesync and g-sync so it might take a real gamer to note those differences maybe? That video didnt offer much in regards to that.

As soon as Amazon actually decides to ship the monitor I ordered 2 weeks ago......I will be able to compare myself and ill have my answer. I am almost positive that g-sync will end up not being worth the $150-200 price difference because I kind of know that already, but if I can recall my last 240hz g-sync monitor I remember being "smoother" than my current 240hz freesync. I am going to have to decide if the price difference is worth the crazy nvidia tax.

The monitor I really want to try is the BenQ XL2546S which isnt really out yet. I kind of want to check out dyac+.
 
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noko

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Article is gone, but the video is still available. It is important to note that the Freesync display used was a VA panel (C27HG70), while the G-SYNC was a TN panel (PG27VQ). The VA panel is going to look objectively better, so there was a bias built into this "blind" test. It was not the fault of Kyle, as he explains in the opening portion of the video.

I didn't realize that that was the same monitor that I use for FreeSync. It is definitely a nice monitor, the only significant issue I will say with it is the VA panel typical pixel response time from one frame to the next where the TN panel should do much better. OLED I would consider to be the best gaming panels available today only available in high end TVs with the best blacks, pixel response times (CRT level) and all the other trimmings.
 

Furious_Styles

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Interesting. I watched it. Unfortunately I dont think this helped at all. Everyone focused on the visual differences between the panels. You would kind of need to compare TN panels because VA is a different thing. Anyways, the only differences should be subtle smoothness between freesync and g-sync so it might take a real gamer to note those differences maybe? That video didnt offer much in regards to that.

As soon as Amazon actually decides to ship the monitor I ordered 2 weeks ago......I will be able to compare myself and ill have my answer. I am almost positive that g-sync will end up not being worth the $150-200 price difference because I kind of know that already, but if I can recall my last 240hz g-sync monitor I remember being "smoother" than my current 240hz freesync. I am going to have to decide if the price difference is worth the crazy nvidia tax.

The monitor I really want to try is the BenQ XL2546S which isnt really out yet. I kind of want to check out dyac+.
Yeah the gsync tax only made sense back when freesync simply wasn't as good.
 

Retsam

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Yeah the gsync tax only made sense back when freesync simply wasn't as good.
Well, yes. What I was saying was, I used to own and use a g-sync 240hz monitor and I remember the experience being slightly "smoother" than what I have now with my Acer XF252QX freesync. But its difficult to say because it was on a different system as well, and it was a while ago. So the only way to know for sure is to get a g-sync 240hz and try it again to compare. So if the g-sync monitor(Omen X 25) ends up being slightly better, the question is if its worth the $150-200 difference.... Not sure.
 

noko

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Well, yes. What I was saying was, I used to own and use a g-sync 240hz monitor and I remember the experience being slightly "smoother" than what I have now with my Acer XF252QX freesync. But its difficult to say because it was on a different system as well, and it was a while ago. So the only way to know for sure is to get a g-sync 240hz and try it again to compare. So if the g-sync monitor(Omen X 25) ends up being slightly better, the question is if its worth the $150-200 difference.... Not sure.
Are you using VSync as well with that FreeSync monitor?
 

Retsam

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Are you using VSync as well with that FreeSync monitor?
Nope. Ive been testing it. So the last 2 weeks ive been using it without freesync enabled or anything. All off but I do limit my fps. Ill put it on again shortly to tell, but honestly its difficult to notice thus far being on or off. I do run a nvidia gpu and not amd, so that may have something to do with it, but either way I still think it is very difficult to notice. This monitor I believe is not officially "g-sync compatible" so that also may be whats going on. I may not be noticing a difference because its actually not doing anything heh.

This is why I have been in a dilemma. Because when I used to run my g-sync 240hz monitor, I remember noticing a difference, thus I want to test 2 monitors side by side.
 
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Furious_Styles

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Nvidia has put in a lot of work to fix Freesync... I'd have to do a significant amount of research before clearing a Freesync monitor that they haven't certified as compatible.
Yes and I do know not all "gsync compatible" are the same, some do not work in as great a range as a normal gsync monitor does.
 

IdiotInCharge

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Yes and I do know not all "gsync compatible" are the same, some do not work in as great a range as a normal gsync monitor does.
They shouldn't all work the same; it's a lower standard, after all.

However, they should provide a fairly good experience over a broad range of gaming scenarios.
 

noko

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Nope. Ive been testing it. So the last 2 weeks ive been using it without freesync enabled or anything. All off but I do limit my fps. Ill put it on again shortly to tell, but honestly its difficult to notice thus far being on or off. I do run a nvidia gpu and not amd, so that may have something to do with it, but either way I still think it is very difficult to notice. This monitor I believe is not officially "g-sync compatible" so that also may be whats going on. I may not be noticing a difference because its actually not doing anything heh.

This is why I have been in a dilemma. Because when I used to run my g-sync 240hz monitor, I remember noticing a difference, thus I want to test 2 monitors side by side.
Use the Nvidia Pendulum demo, you can manually control the min/max FPS, fix FPS at some value or let it go up and down etc. Just to see if GSync is actually working full range. Check for Judder. Program is real good for this and also works with AMD cards and FreeSync monitors with the clevit that you have to use AMD's control panel to turn FreeSync on and off which is not an issue since you can pull up the driver interface right inside the fullscreen Pendulum demo and turn on/off any of the driver features.

I am going to hook back up my FreeSync II monitor to the 1080Ti, the two systems are right next to each other anyways. Anyways the Pendulum Demo with the 5700XT and Samsung 144hz FreeSync II monitor shows LFC working and at what frequency, top frequency when FreeSync kicks out etc. by experimenting. See the judder when VSync is enabled and also shows that Enhanced Sych does absolutely nothing! That is from what I could tell.

https://www.nvidia.com/coolstuff/demos#!/g-sync
 

Retsam

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Use the Nvidia Pendulum demo
Ok. Ill download it and check it out. Good idea. At least I can tell if there is gsync compatibility with this monitor.


Ok so running the demo. I guess its hard to know what settings I should be looking to run at. I dont quite understand the options. It has Vsync, I am assuming that is supposed to be normal vsync and comparing g-sync? So you cant compare freesync I guess, which make sense since this is nvidia software... The G-sync box definitely would not work, so it is not liking my monitor to enable g-sync there. In terms of like "judder" I only noticed a little bit, it was pretty smooth already. I definitely didnt noticed a difference having freesync enabled vs disabled. I dunno.
 
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noko

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Ok. Ill download it and check it out. Good idea. At least I can tell if there is gsync compatibility with this monitor.


Ok so running the demo. I guess its hard to know what settings I should be looking to run at. I dont quite understand the options. It has Vsync, I am assuming that is supposed to be normal vsync and comparing g-sync? So you cant compare freesync I guess, which make sense since this is nvidia software... The G-sync box definitely would not work, so it is not liking my monitor to enable g-sync there. In terms of like "judder" I only noticed a little bit, it was pretty smooth already. I definitely didnt noticed a difference having freesync enabled vs disabled. I dunno.
It should be, at least for me a rather noticeable difference with VRR on and off. My monitor HUD shows information when FreeSync is on or off, refresh rate which varies with framerate, HDR etc. Does your monitor hud have that? If VRR is working or GSync you should see the monitor refresh rate constantly changing. I have two FreeSync monitors and on both I had to turn on the FreeSync Option on the monitor for it to work just as a after thought.

With the Pendulum center and the varying 40-60fps option with no GSync or no VSync, no GSync, you should see tearing across the face of it, do you see that? With GSync on you should not see any tearing.

Towards left bottom you have a button which opens up FPS sliders which you can set your min and max FPS. With these you can check for LFC as well as for when GSync reaches it's upper limit (usually just max refresh rate). For example my monitor FreeSync range is 48-144hz yet LFC comes in at around 51hz, you know this when you see your monitor refresh rate double your FPS (that is if your monitor HUD shows active refresh rate).

I can make a video later on this, not sure how well it will show the actual tearing or smoothness.
 

Retsam

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I do see what youre saying now. I was looking at the whole screen. There is a little bit of tearing on the Pendulum itself when it is off. Now I see. It is pretty subtle though. It is kind of difficult to tell.

So I just got my new HP Omen X 25 g-sync monitor today. Got it all set up. With g-sync on and off, it is difficult to notice much of a difference..... I have to be honest. Played a few quick games in Ironsight, BF1 and few others. It is kind of hard to tell. Trying to figure out what settings I need to set to visualize the most tearing possible so that I can see a contrast. I remember my old g-sync monitor differently, not sure why...
 
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Armenius

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I do see what youre saying now. I was looking at the whole screen. There is a little bit of tearing on the Pendulum itself when it is off. Now I see. It is pretty subtle though. It is kind of difficult to tell.

So I just got my new HP Omen X 25 g-sync monitor today. Got it all set up. With g-sync on and off, it is difficult to notice much of a difference..... I have to be honest. Played a few quick games in Ironsight, BF1 and few others. It is kind of hard to tell. Trying to figure out what settings I need to set to visualize the most tearing possible so that I can see a contrast. I remember my old g-sync monitor differently, not sure why...
I think the reason is that newer games are taking frame pacing into account now so that performance is mostly consistent, which has the side effect of reducing visible tearing. Battlefield games in particular are doing an excellent job at this. Play an older game like Half-Life 2 and the difference should be more apparent. I am really sensitive to tearing and judder, so I can still tell when VRR is off or not working.
 
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Retsam

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I think the reason is that newer games are taking frame pacing into account now so that performance is mostly consistent, which has the side effect of reducing visible tearing. Battlefield games in particular are doing an excellent job at this. Play an older game like Half-Life 2 and the difference should be more apparent. I am really sensitive to tearing and judder, so I can still tell when VRR is off or not working.
Yeah. Youre right. I used to play tons of Team Fortress 2. I used to get massive tearing. I suppose that may be a reason to not care as much about tearing these days then.
 
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noko

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Yeah. Youre right. I used to play tons of Team Fortress 2. I used to get massive tearing. I suppose that may be a reason to not care as much about tearing these days then.
Seems like my brain can pretty much filter out tearing unless I look for it but sudden changes in motion always sticks out clearly for me. Which probably mean for some that VRR is not needed or even noticed if it is on or off. The brain does some amazing post processing, such as filtering out your nose is one example.
 
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