Fully Decked out and accessorized 16" MacBook Pro costs over $8k

Zepher

[H]ipster Replacement
Joined
Sep 29, 2001
Messages
17,780
Chose all the options and accessories for it and it came out to $8,164 before tax, lol.

canvas.png
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
Yes, but no one actually buys that one unless they have an absurd amount of money to spend.
Maxing out the vRAM, RAM (an excessive 64GB), Processor, gets you to under $4k.
The flash storage costs a lot. Most won't bother to upgrade the 1TB.
 

N4CR

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
4,687
Yes, but no one actually buys that one unless they have an absurd amount of money to spend.
Maxing out the vRAM, RAM (an excessive 64GB), Processor, gets you to under $4k.
The flash storage costs a lot. Most won't bother to upgrade the 1TB.

Oh boy, already got a story about these money sinks. (yes okay pro/enthusiast use, preferred brand/ecosystem/etc understandable go for gold, knock yourself out and enjoy it)..

One of the poorest people I know is going to get one. MAX OPTIONS. 13k here - I could get an Alienware M2 and a 4k 55"/40" 3950X/2080Ti full build and still have enough spare for a set of track wheels and rubber for the race car.

They are unemployed and have lived off benefits for many years, occasionally applying for managerial roles and similar in places they have no business setting foot. One of those people whom 'everyone else is at fault' when something goes wrong. Many people have tried to help and been tossed aside or treated like shit (myself included).
But they have a grand delusion they have lots of programming work (I think did some real basic stuff) and apply for jobs in programming languages they don't even know, plus is also a 'music artist'. Very unsuccessful at that.
Their last apple laptop is also very expensive and only 1 year old. They plan to have the new one last 2-3 years. Yeah... 3.5k a year depreciation or worse!!
And when told about pricing;

'This is quite complex. People love to rag on apple for their pricing, but here's the thing:
This is not a desktop. It's a laptop and all that comes with that, be it portability or design challenges of fitting all that tech into that space.
The reliability of them still far exceeds that of any single PC I've seen.
I don't want a desktop. I want desktop power in a device I can take around easily to do any and all of the work I could need it to'


If they were just going for the '4k maxed out sans flash' I could understand it a little better. But 8k usd+ for a all options build because apple, wow.
I'll sit back and wait for the inevitable complaints of being poor again, or it getting broken and costing so much to 'fix', or having no money but instead an 8kusd + laptop with no work for it.
:cigar:
>popcorn.gif goes here
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
Oh boy, already got a story about these money sinks. (yes okay pro/enthusiast use, preferred brand/ecosystem/etc understandable go for gold, knock yourself out and enjoy it)..

One of the poorest people I know is going to get one. MAX OPTIONS. 13k here - I could get an Alienware M2 and a 4k 55"/40" 3950X/2080Ti full build and still have enough spare for a set of track wheels and rubber for the race car.

They are unemployed and have lived off benefits for many years, occasionally applying for managerial roles and similar in places they have no business setting foot. One of those people whom 'everyone else is at fault' when something goes wrong. Many people have tried to help and been tossed aside or treated like shit (myself included).
But they have a grand delusion they have lots of programming work (I think did some real basic stuff) and apply for jobs in programming languages they don't even know, plus is also a 'music artist'. Very unsuccessful at that.
Their last apple laptop is also very expensive and only 1 year old. They plan to have the new one last 2-3 years. Yeah... 3.5k a year depreciation or worse!!
And when told about pricing;

'This is quite complex. People love to rag on apple for their pricing, but here's the thing:
This is not a desktop. It's a laptop and all that comes with that, be it portability or design challenges of fitting all that tech into that space.
The reliability of them still far exceeds that of any single PC I've seen.
I don't want a desktop. I want desktop power in a device I can take around easily to do any and all of the work I could need it to'


If they were just going for the '4k maxed out sans flash' I could understand it a little better. But 8k usd+ for a all options build because apple, wow.
I'll sit back and wait for the inevitable complaints of being poor again, or it getting broken and costing so much to 'fix', or having no money but instead an 8kusd + laptop with no work for it.
:cigar:
>popcorn.gif goes here

That's not really an issue with this laptop so much as people unable to make good financial choices.
People dump all their money into anything they deem important but can't manage their financial health. It could be cars (especially the car mod scene), fashion, tech, whatever the obsession is.
So this is not a surprise, least of all to me. But when I said what I said, I was referring to people that are either buying this for business/work or that are financially solvent. Otherwise all we're doing is talking about edge cases and outliers all the time, which I would say is a waste of time and energy.
 
Last edited:

ssj925

n00b
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
28
I just returned my 16" MBP. I had the $2,799 model.

When compared to my 2013 retina MBP 15" it performed 2x faster at things like rendering, but in everyday tasks and moderate loads, there was almost no difference.

I decided to give my 2013 some fresh thermal paste, new battery, and fresh macOS install instead. I can let my videos rendering an extra 10-20 minutes lol.

I haven't had anyone defend these in terms of them being something special, packing in all this equipment into a small form factor. For that I consider my Alienware Area-51m laptop. 9900K /RTX 2080 desktop class, 144Hz G-Sync panel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jinto
like this

Verge

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
May 27, 2001
Messages
6,676
Yes, but no one actually buys that one unless they have an absurd amount of money to spend.
Maxing out the vRAM, RAM (an excessive 64GB), Processor, gets you to under $4k.
The flash storage costs a lot. Most won't bother to upgrade the 1TB.

Used to you could get a 10gb nic on the macbook air that added 3,000 dollars. Adding every option and pointing at the price is dumb.
 

Aurelius

2[H]4U
Joined
Mar 22, 2003
Messages
2,997
I just returned my 16" MBP. I had the $2,799 model.

When compared to my 2013 retina MBP 15" it performed 2x faster at things like rendering, but in everyday tasks and moderate loads, there was almost no difference.

I decided to give my 2013 some fresh thermal paste, new battery, and fresh macOS install instead. I can let my videos rendering an extra 10-20 minutes lol.

I haven't had anyone defend these in terms of them being something special, packing in all this equipment into a small form factor. For that I consider my Alienware Area-51m laptop. 9900K /RTX 2080 desktop class, 144Hz G-Sync panel.

I think it's fairly easy to defend: it's a thin and light laptop that performs well for its size, boasts a very nice display, keyboard and trackpad, lasts a long time on battery and gives you a viable option if you don't want Windows.
 

dmdtobe

Weaksauce
Joined
Oct 7, 2019
Messages
65
Oh boy, already got a story about these money sinks. (yes okay pro/enthusiast use, preferred brand/ecosystem/etc understandable go for gold, knock yourself out and enjoy it)..

One of the poorest people I know is going to get one. MAX OPTIONS. 13k here - I could get an Alienware M2 and a 4k 55"/40" 3950X/2080Ti full build and still have enough spare for a set of track wheels and rubber for the race car.

They are unemployed and have lived off benefits for many years, occasionally applying for managerial roles and similar in places they have no business setting foot. One of those people whom 'everyone else is at fault' when something goes wrong. Many people have tried to help and been tossed aside or treated like shit (myself included).
But they have a grand delusion they have lots of programming work (I think did some real basic stuff) and apply for jobs in programming languages they don't even know, plus is also a 'music artist'. Very unsuccessful at that.
Their last apple laptop is also very expensive and only 1 year old. They plan to have the new one last 2-3 years. Yeah... 3.5k a year depreciation or worse!!
And when told about pricing;

'This is quite complex. People love to rag on apple for their pricing, but here's the thing:
This is not a desktop. It's a laptop and all that comes with that, be it portability or design challenges of fitting all that tech into that space.
The reliability of them still far exceeds that of any single PC I've seen.
I don't want a desktop. I want desktop power in a device I can take around easily to do any and all of the work I could need it to'


If they were just going for the '4k maxed out sans flash' I could understand it a little better. But 8k usd+ for a all options build because apple, wow.
I'll sit back and wait for the inevitable complaints of being poor again, or it getting broken and costing so much to 'fix', or having no money but instead an 8kusd + laptop with no work for it.
:cigar:
>popcorn.gif goes here

tl;dr but I want some of whatever you're smoking because you seem to be in a universe of your own.
 

N4CR

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Oct 17, 2011
Messages
4,687
tl;dr but I want some of whatever you're smoking because you seem to be in a universe of your own.
Lol if you knew this person you'd be saying the same thing. I'm not the only one.

Maybe hit a little close to home?
 

sethk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
1,861
Used to you could get a 10gb nic on the macbook air that added 3,000 dollars. Adding every option and pointing at the price is dumb.
Wow that is a pretty random option for a macbook air ! What’s next SAS 4x connector for an iPad mini for $2000?
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
565
I wouldn't start factoring accessories and 15 years of AppleCare+ into the price like that, that's just bloating it unnecessarily.

That said, one thing that irks me about post-Retina MBPs is that the RAM is soldered, so you're not upgrading it without a BGA rework station and the right chips. I'm sure Apple did this so they can gouge people $400 for the 32 GB option, or another $400 for the 64 GB option, whereas most other high-end laptops just let you buy some SO-DIMMs off the shelf and plop 'em in. If that wasn't bad enough, stores generally only stock the 16 GB configuration of the new MBPs, too - any upgrades seem purely build-to-order, ensuring Apple takes their toll.

Never mind that RAM is a known failure point in some systems; Memtest86 exists for a reason, as does Rember. This old MDD G4 drive me nuts with silent data corruption 'til I ran Rember and pinpointed the DIMM at fault.

Between that, the MBP's GPU still not holding a candle to the RTX 2070 and 2080 in a lot of other Windows laptops, and those same laptops packing 4K IPS or 1080p 144 Hz, sometimes even 240 Hz panels for the same price or less, the choice is pretty clear to me.

That said, I might just get a MBP for my younger bro if I'm feeling generous, because he's the one guy in the house who uses an iPhone and FaceTime, and I'm thinking he'd benefit from the Mac integration - AirDrop, Continuity, Handoff, actually having a computer he can develop his own iOS apps on if desired, that sorta thing. It'll probably be the older 2015 15" Retina MBP with R9 M370X for cost reasons, though.
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
I wouldn't start factoring accessories and 15 years of AppleCare+ into the price like that, that's just bloating it unnecessarily.

That said, one thing that irks me about post-Retina MBPs is that the RAM is soldered, so you're not upgrading it without a BGA rework station and the right chips. I'm sure Apple did this so they can gouge people $400 for the 32 GB option, or another $400 for the 64 GB option, whereas most other high-end laptops just let you buy some SO-DIMMs off the shelf and plop 'em in. If that wasn't bad enough, stores generally only stock the 16 GB configuration of the new MBPs, too - any upgrades seem purely build-to-order, ensuring Apple takes their toll.
I think the decision in general to not have user replaceable RAM fits into a few different categories.
People treat laptops (or really computers from any system integrator in general) as disposable assets. Most people that are buying a product from any system integrator don't at anytime in the life-cycle upgrade their systems. This leads directly into the next factor:
Wanting a thinner laptop. There isn't anyway to get RAM slots to be horizontal in a chassis any other way than soldering it in. Clips just don't work that way.

Getting to charge whatever they charge for RAM is a side benefit. But it's also roughly in the same ball park as what other system integrators do, users just have a way to skirt around it. Which, yeah, would be nice and is something that PC users expect.

The evidence to the contrary for you if you also wanted that side is the (relatively) new Mac Mini, which has user upgrade-able RAM. If there ever was a time for Apple to not shock us with non-user upgrade-able parts, that would've been it. But yet they've still chosen not to. Most of Apple's product line does have some amount of user-replaceable parts (iMac, Mac Pro, Mac Mini). But their laptops that are designed to be thin and light, and well carried everywhere, generally do not.

Never mind that RAM is a known failure point in some systems; Memtest86 exists for a reason, as does Rember. This old MDD G4 drive me nuts with silent data corruption 'til I ran Rember and pinpointed the DIMM at fault.
Right, but that isn't saying much. There are some systems where the PSU is a common problem. There are some systems where the battery is a common problem. There are some systems where the GPU's are known fail (in fact that was an issue with nVidia 8600GT's in the Macbook Pro as a direct example).
If that's your argument then you really should be asking for 100% of the parts in a laptop to be user replaceable. Shouldn't bother to stop at the RAM.

Between that, the MBP's GPU still not holding a candle to the RTX 2070 and 2080 in a lot of other Windows laptops, and those same laptops packing 4K IPS or 1080p 144 Hz, sometimes even 240 Hz panels for the same price or less, the choice is pretty clear to me.
And for other users the list of checks goes a different direction. Feel free to let me know what the battery life of that machine is while it's rendering a video project. Or how loud it is. Or how heavy. There are some benefits that can't just be listed on a spec sheet that matter for users beyond just "more power". I have zero interest in ever having a "desktop replacement" laptop. And that's why there exists more than one option on the market. And the Macbook Pro isn't exactly slow either. If you want gaming benchmarks then that's one thing, but the new MBPt will allow for excellent mobile 4k editing and music production in a form factor that no PC integrator can match.
 

sethk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 3, 2005
Messages
1,861
While I don’t disagree with the concept of manufacturers having the freedom to design a high degree of integration in laptops to hit a form factor and price that so its profitable, it is certainly not the case that Apple is alone in doing that.
Apple iterates at a glacial pace in the laptop and Pc space and there are quite a few manufacturers that have equally or more compact, lighter and powerful machines (usually just as non upgradable and only slightly less expensive), especially in the off years between refreshes when apple continues to sell 3+ year old designs with frozen in time prices.
 

Shoganai

Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
899
While I don’t disagree with the concept of manufacturers having the freedom to design a high degree of integration in laptops to hit a form factor and price that so its profitable, it is certainly not the case that Apple is alone in doing that.
Apple iterates at a glacial pace in the laptop and Pc space and there are quite a few manufacturers that have equally or more compact, lighter and powerful machines (usually just as non upgradable and only slightly less expensive), especially in the off years between refreshes when apple continues to sell 3+ year old designs with frozen in time prices.
You can replace nearly everything in a Razer Blade and it’s of similar build to the MacBook Pro. One of the new Alienwares even lets you replace the GPU. I miss being able to breathe new life into older MacBooks for friends and family by replacing internal components. Apple’s planned obsolescence is getting worse. Hell, you can’t even install Apple’s own software apps like Final Cut Pro if the OS is more than a year old, which is asinine.
 
  • Like
Reactions: sethk
like this

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
You can replace nearly everything in a Razer Blade and it’s of similar build to the MacBook Pro. One of the new Alienwares even lets you replace the GPU. I miss being able to breathe new life into older MacBooks for friends and family by replacing internal components.
How many PC manufacturers do this? You should be complaining about a lot more people. You’re describing an outlier in the industry and expecting that everyone should be at that standard.

Apple’s planned obsolescence is getting worse. Hell, you can’t even install Apple’s own software apps like Final Cut Pro if the OS is more than a year old, which is asinine.
OS updates are free. You’re describing every Mac since 2012. Basically any machine that supports 64-bit and Metal 1.
 

Shoganai

Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
899
How many PC manufacturers do this? You should be complaining about a lot more people. You’re describing an outlier in the industry and expecting that everyone should be at that standard.


OS updates are free. You’re describing every Mac since 2012. Basically any machine that supports 64-bit and Metal 1.
You can install patched versions of Catalina on pre-2012 Macs and every feature runs perfectly, minus AirPlay. But Apple makes AirPlay not work on any Mac running High Sierra or earlier. Them arbitrarily stopping support is an Apple thing. Things like Pages and Numbers, which run perfectly fine on these patched Macs, aren’t able to get them normally because the latest versions are only downloadable on Catalina. Let’s say you’re staying on High Sierra because of bugs and you don’t want to update the OS. You’d be forced to if Pages and Numbers were part of your workflow. It’s not a hardware thing as Apple has successfully brainwashed into you. It’s an Apple thing. Please don’t be an Apple apologist. People on this forum very much know better.

As for upgradable laptops, they are definitely not outlier companies. I’ve seen DELL, HP, Lenovo, MSI, ASUS, etc with perfectly upgradable components. And at least with Windows you know the software you use will keep running for more than a year or two on the same Operating System.

So, I’m not sure what your point is.
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
You can install patched versions of Catalina on pre-2012 Macs and every feature runs perfectly, minus AirPlay. But Apple makes AirPlay not work on any Mac running High Sierra or earlier. Them arbitrarily stopping support is an Apple thing. Things like Pages and Numbers, which run perfectly fine on these patched Macs, aren’t able to get them normally because the latest versions are only downloadable on Catalina. Let’s say you’re staying on High Sierra because of bugs and you don’t want to update the OS. You’d be forced to if Pages and Numbers were part of your workflow. It’s not a hardware thing as Apple has successfully brainwashed into you. It’s an Apple thing. Please don’t be an Apple apologist. People on this forum very much know better.

Windows 10 is the only really supported platform and it’s a platform you cannot control updates on. And more often than not it breaks far more than anything any update from Apple has ever done.

If I want to run Windows 7 and DX12 I can’t. So no, it’s not “an Apple thing”.

Apple has their way of doing things. And Microsoft theirs. Preferring what Apple does does not make me an apologist anymore than you being okay with Telemetry, broken drivers, uncontrollable/unstable updates, or a terrible file system.

Apple OS system updates are essentially like Windows 10 builds. If anything there is greater similarity than dissimilarity.

What I find ironic is that you come in here calling me brainwashed, while ignoring all the garbage that MS does simply because you’re used to their monopolistic self-serving practices. As if they’re your savior in computing. You don’t like the way Apples shit stinks but you’ve grown more than accustomed to Microsoft’s stench. But I won’t play along and pretend that I don’t smell it along with you.

As for upgradable laptops, they are definitely not outlier companies. I’ve seen DELL, HP, Lenovo, MSI, ASUS, etc with perfectly upgradable components. And at least with Windows you know the software you use will keep running for more than a year or two on the same Operating System.

So, I’m not sure what your point is.

So I can buy any Dell and upgrade the graphics card? I can upgrade the processor on any and all of them? That is absolutely not the case. RAM and HD maybe. But that wasn’t your point when you brought up Razer.

And like I just mentioned: no you can’t run the same OS on the Windows side. At least not without hacking the OS and/or disconnecting it from the internet.
 
Last edited:

Shoganai

Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
899
It's definitely an Apple thing. And Apple updates definitely break things. They've still not fixed Apple Mail in several years and it's still a huge complaint on the Apple forums. iOS Mail is broken as well as has been for several iterations of iOS.

As for Razer, you can't upgrade the GPU either ... that's specifically the Alienware laptop I was referring to. If that's all you got out of what I said this is a very one-ended conversation.

And as for your Windows comments, I have no idea WTF you're going on about as none of that is relevant to anything I just said.
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
It's definitely an Apple thing. And Apple updates definitely break things. They've still not fixed Apple Mail in several years and it's still a huge complaint on the Apple forums. iOS Mail is broken as well as has been for several iterations of iOS.
Comparatively speaking far less than Windows. If you want to talk about absolutism, then sure a sin is a sin if that's what you want to say. But if you're going to fling stones then your house better be in order and it isn't. Not by a long shot.

As for Razer, you can't upgrade the GPU either ... that's specifically the Alienware laptop I was referring to. If that's all you got out of what I said this is a very one-ended conversation.
It is a very short conversation. Because you're making it sound like it's possible to do whatever you want on any system you want. That Windows openness in regards to hardware gives meaningful flexibility in a laptop. When for most users it doesn't have any real meaning or affect the longevity. Will you have outliers? Absolutely. But if our discussion is all about edge-cases and "what ifs" then that is a big waste of both our time.

And as for your Windows comments, I have no idea WTF you're going on about as none of that is relevant to anything I just said.
:rolleyes:
 

Shoganai

Gawd
Joined
Dec 5, 2018
Messages
899
99% of Apple's products have soldered in parts now. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make still other than to defend Apple ... cuz reasons. And now you're saying that upgradeability and repairability are moot because some people don't need it. That's some elite reasoning there. And now, if this article is to be believed, if Apple removes Intel from their hardware, it's going to remove the ability to run Windows, which would be a very huge inconvenience on many levels.

The part where you're rolling your eyes only further solidifies my response. Thank you.

And by the way, I've been using Apple computers since I was a child ... and still do ... so ... I have a right to complain since I've been through all this for quite some time ... watching Apple change into what they are now. It's not a good direction.
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
99% of Apple's products have soldered in parts now. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make still other than to defend Apple ... cuz reasons.
That isn't close to being true. Every desktop system Apple makes has replaceable parts. Only mobile systems do not. But it's good that we can see your bias immediately for what it is.
And I back it up with truth. Whether you're on PC or a MAC a desktop or laptop the stats show that users DO NOT upgrade their internal components (referring to machines made by system builders like Dell, HP, Apple etc, not machines that people build themselves). So whatever, you want to argue with facts, that's fine. But getting mad about something you don't like when it's a very sound business decision is on you.

And now, if this article is to be believed, if Apple removes Intel from their hardware, it's going to remove the ability to run Windows, which would be a very huge inconvenience on many levels.
In what way? If you need to run Windows you have a Windows machine. Man, you know what's a bigger problem? I can't run anything macOS related on a PC. But you're not exactly falling over describing that as a problem.
If you're on a Mac, it's because the software you need to run is also on a Mac. If you're on a PC, it's also because the software you need to run is on a PC. This isn't genius level stuff. You pick the platform based on your needs.

I don't try and get in a conversation with hardcore gamers that they should buy Macs. If you're a gamer, you're doing Windows all the way down. But this is a really idiotic diversion that has literally nothing to do with people trying to get actual work done on their systems. The convenience that Apple has going for it that Windows does not goes away and that's a problem, but lets ignore the fact that Windows has never had that functionality. And that's IF. A huge IF that it does go away. You're also making a huge assumption.

The part where you're rolling your eyes only further solidifies my response. Thank you.
I'm sorry that you're unable to see how the things you said relate. There's nothing else to say.
 
Last edited:

JohnRico

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 13, 2009
Messages
415
Hey, 8k is nothing compared to the $54k Mac Pro fulled specced out.
speced out mac pro.PNG


Plus another $7.2k for each fully decked out Pro XDR display - run two just for bragging rights.
 
Joined
Oct 16, 2016
Messages
565
I think the decision in general to not have user replaceable RAM fits into a few different categories.
People treat laptops (or really computers from any system integrator in general) as disposable assets. Most people that are buying a product from any system integrator don't at anytime in the life-cycle upgrade their systems. This leads directly into the next factor:
Wanting a thinner laptop. There isn't anyway to get RAM slots to be horizontal in a chassis any other way than soldering it in. Clips just don't work that way.

Getting to charge whatever they charge for RAM is a side benefit. But it's also roughly in the same ball park as what other system integrators do, users just have a way to skirt around it. Which, yeah, would be nice and is something that PC users expect.

The evidence to the contrary for you if you also wanted that side is the (relatively) new Mac Mini, which has user upgrade-able RAM. If there ever was a time for Apple to not shock us with non-user upgrade-able parts, that would've been it. But yet they've still chosen not to. Most of Apple's product line does have some amount of user-replaceable parts (iMac, Mac Pro, Mac Mini). But their laptops that are designed to be thin and light, and well carried everywhere, generally do not.
I now find myself managing a warehouse's worth of desktops, laptops, and the occasional set of iPads, so I see what you're coming from regarding the system integrator thing.

After three years, the old stuff gets cleared out due to warranty expiration, because time is money in that kind of business, and most of a computer tech's time here is just spent prepping these computers for a shipment. Something goes wrong with a system? Set it aside, pull a different one, ideally send it out to HP or Apple or whoever if it's still under warranty and it's some kind of hardware problem I can't fix in a matter of minutes.

Personally, though, I couldn't care less about how thin a laptop is, only that it doesn't throttle under load, has a decent set of I/O ports, and has solid build quality. That's easier to accomplish with a thicker machine - more room for beefier heatsinks and fans, for starters.

For those who want thin and light, though, I think Apple has that market covered quite nicely already, in the form of the MacBook Air. Let the MacBook Pro be a Pro machine.

Right, but that isn't saying much. There are some systems where the PSU is a common problem. There are some systems where the battery is a common problem. There are some systems where the GPU's are known fail (in fact that was an issue with nVidia 8600GT's in the Macbook Pro as a direct example).
If that's your argument then you really should be asking for 100% of the parts in a laptop to be user replaceable. Shouldn't bother to stop at the RAM.
Hey, if someone can make everything 100% replacable in a laptop, I'm all for it, but I think only the MNT Reform open-source laptop can even come close to accomplishing that.

Speaking of failing GPUs, I've already come across at least two of the infamous 2011 MBPs with the defective AMD GPUs. One of them is actually at the warehouse I'm working at, and much as I'd like to test out DeMux on it, I don't feel like dropping $40 of my own dosh to fix hardware that isn't officially mine yet.

Too bad they're not like the iMacs of the same era that have MXM GPUs, relatively easy to swap out with something later and much better performance-wise, perhaps even with Metal support for Mojave and Catalina.

And for other users the list of checks goes a different direction. Feel free to let me know what the battery life of that machine is while it's rendering a video project. Or how loud it is. Or how heavy. There are some benefits that can't just be listed on a spec sheet that matter for users beyond just "more power". I have zero interest in ever having a "desktop replacement" laptop. And that's why there exists more than one option on the market. And the Macbook Pro isn't exactly slow either. If you want gaming benchmarks then that's one thing, but the new MBPt will allow for excellent mobile 4k editing and music production in a form factor that no PC integrator can match.
That's the beauty of an open market, isn't it? Someone's bound to produce what you want; it's just that if you need macOS, your options are limited, such that a lot of creative professionals already ditched Apple after that fiasco with the trash can 2013 Mac Pro dying under thermal stress and generally remaining unchanged with no upgrades during its official lifespan longer than the Macintosh Plus was. They at least delivered on performance with the new cheese grater - but at a shockingly steep price.

Back to laptops, though: it turns out that someone actually did make my idea of the perfect creative professional mobile workstation - the Acer ConceptD 9. Top-of-the-line i9-9980HK and either RTX 2080 (no Max-Q here!) or Quadro RTX 5000, a big ol' 17" screen with that fancy Ezel hinge and a Wacom EMR digitizer that has an IPS panel covering the whole AdobeRGB gamut, decent I/O, most likely upgradable and serviceable inside...

Sure, it costs $5,000 in its base configuration, actually making most MacBook Pros look like budget items, but I'll gladly save up a few months' worth of pay to get my hands on that thing. I mean, it outclasses my old i7-4770K/GTX 980 desktop and effectively has a Cintiq Pro 16 built-in, all in one relatively portable package.

9 pounds? Don't care, it's going from desk to desk or on my bed. Lousy battery life? I've got a Galaxy Note 8 in my pocket for 90% of my mobile computing needs. Doesn't run macOS? Yeah, can't argue with that one, but I admit I'm not really dependent on developing iOS or macOS apps that absolutely requires a Mac. I'm sure someone will find a way to Hackintosh it if the impossible happens and Turing/RTX drivers somehow wind up releasing for macOS.

That's the kind of Pro laptop I wish Apple actually made, but they didn't make a 17" model since 2012, for starters. Perhaps it'd take that size of laptop to have something that can adequately cool any mobile AMD GPU that could even challenge an RTX 2070, let alone the 2080.

And while you still can't use the Pencil directly on any Mac (especially the iMac Pro, where it would make the most sense due to the all-in-one design), Sidecar is a step in the right direction for those who also own iPad Pros with matching Pencils, albeit still sorely needing a hover cursor like what Wacom tablets offer.
 

UnknownSouljer

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Sep 24, 2001
Messages
6,803
I now find myself managing a warehouse's worth of desktops, laptops, and the occasional set of iPads, so I see what you're coming from regarding the system integrator thing.

After three years, the old stuff gets cleared out due to warranty expiration, because time is money in that kind of business, and most of a computer tech's time here is just spent prepping these computers for a shipment. Something goes wrong with a system? Set it aside, pull a different one, ideally send it out to HP or Apple or whoever if it's still under warranty and it's some kind of hardware problem I can't fix in a matter of minutes.

Personally, though, I couldn't care less about how thin a laptop is, only that it doesn't throttle under load, has a decent set of I/O ports, and has solid build quality. That's easier to accomplish with a thicker machine - more room for beefier heatsinks and fans, for starters.

For those who want thin and light, though, I think Apple has that market covered quite nicely already, in the form of the MacBook Air. Let the MacBook Pro be a Pro machine.


Hey, if someone can make everything 100% replacable in a laptop, I'm all for it, but I think only the MNT Reform open-source laptop can even come close to accomplishing that.

Speaking of failing GPUs, I've already come across at least two of the infamous 2011 MBPs with the defective AMD GPUs. One of them is actually at the warehouse I'm working at, and much as I'd like to test out DeMux on it, I don't feel like dropping $40 of my own dosh to fix hardware that isn't officially mine yet.

Too bad they're not like the iMacs of the same era that have MXM GPUs, relatively easy to swap out with something later and much better performance-wise, perhaps even with Metal support for Mojave and Catalina.


That's the beauty of an open market, isn't it? Someone's bound to produce what you want; it's just that if you need macOS, your options are limited, such that a lot of creative professionals already ditched Apple after that fiasco with the trash can 2013 Mac Pro dying under thermal stress and generally remaining unchanged with no upgrades during its official lifespan longer than the Macintosh Plus was. They at least delivered on performance with the new cheese grater - but at a shockingly steep price.

Back to laptops, though: it turns out that someone actually did make my idea of the perfect creative professional mobile workstation - the Acer ConceptD 9. Top-of-the-line i9-9980HK and either RTX 2080 (no Max-Q here!) or Quadro RTX 5000, a big ol' 17" screen with that fancy Ezel hinge and a Wacom EMR digitizer that has an IPS panel covering the whole AdobeRGB gamut, decent I/O, most likely upgradable and serviceable inside...

Sure, it costs $5,000 in its base configuration, actually making most MacBook Pros look like budget items, but I'll gladly save up a few months' worth of pay to get my hands on that thing. I mean, it outclasses my old i7-4770K/GTX 980 desktop and effectively has a Cintiq Pro 16 built-in, all in one relatively portable package.

9 pounds? Don't care, it's going from desk to desk or on my bed. Lousy battery life? I've got a Galaxy Note 8 in my pocket for 90% of my mobile computing needs. Doesn't run macOS? Yeah, can't argue with that one, but I admit I'm not really dependent on developing iOS or macOS apps that absolutely requires a Mac. I'm sure someone will find a way to Hackintosh it if the impossible happens and Turing/RTX drivers somehow wind up releasing for macOS.

That's the kind of Pro laptop I wish Apple actually made, but they didn't make a 17" model since 2012, for starters. Perhaps it'd take that size of laptop to have something that can adequately cool any mobile AMD GPU that could even challenge an RTX 2070, let alone the 2080.

And while you still can't use the Pencil directly on any Mac (especially the iMac Pro, where it would make the most sense due to the all-in-one design), Sidecar is a step in the right direction for those who also own iPad Pros with matching Pencils, albeit still sorely needing a hover cursor like what Wacom tablets offer.

The very short version is I more or less agree with you on most points. Glad you found a machine you want and at the end of the day, that's what it's about far more than complaining about what one company is doing. I always find it odd that people find endless excuses to bitch about Apple all day and night when they never in a thousand years would ever buy a product they make. Who cares? Move on! But apparently that's not possible to do. Anyway.

The only 'disagreements' I have are, points that are more about preference and perspective of the company. I'd argue the 16" MBPt is a Pro Level machine. It also doesn't suffer from thermal throttling issues and I think has a very compelling proposition in terms of size and performance. If your only definition of "pro" is always "desktop replacement" then yeah, Apple will never meet your definition. I think Apple leans far more to their laptops actually needing to travel with people constantly to get work done. You having a 9lbs laptop is fine, but Apple is catering to a wider demographic that wants plenty of power in a form factor that won't kill them every business trip. Which is fair enough. That's why you're ending up going with something else.

At home, I unfortunately had to buy slightly too soon and ended up with a 2019 15" Macbook Pro. My solution has simply been to use an eGPU, which I more or less knew I was going to do when I got it. More power with a fairly high-end display at home, and fast and light while on the go.
As an aside, it is somewhat of a shame that AMD hasn't produced any particularly high-end mobile GPU's recently, but I find it unlikely that Apple would use it unless the power and thermal load could be comprable to what they're around right now.
 
Top