Full implications of end of free Win10 upgrade period revealed

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evilsofa

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This seems worthy of its own thread. Is mda the first to ask Microsoft the right question?

mda said:
MS Chat: at 15:30:58
How may I assist you today?
You: at 15:31:36
Yup, I'd just like to ask a clarificatory question regarding the transferability of upgraded Windows 10 licenses.
MS Chat: at 15:31:46
To confirm, you want to know if Windows 10 free upgrade is transferrable, correct?
You: at 15:32:44
Yes, I'd like to ask if this is the case if the original license used (Windows 7/8/8.1) is a retail license.
You: at 15:33:26
If so, I would also like to ask how can I transfer the license in the future (let's say I move this to a different PC).
MS Chat: at 15:34:05
Thank you for the concern.
MS Chat: at 15:34:57
Once you have upgraded to Windows 10, even if the license is a retail one or FPP there is no transfer right since Windows 10 Free Upgrade will be an OEM License and is using the Product ID of your previous version.
You: at 15:37:09
Ahh I see. So in the event that computer is no longer useable and will be replaced, I can choose to reinstall the old version of Windows (since this carries the FPP license). Is this correct?
MS Chat: at 15:38:18
Since it is an FPP, yes you can.
MS Chat: at 15:38:41
And once you have transferred it to another computer, and if the free upgrade is still available, then you can still upgrade it to Windows 10 for free.\
You: at 15:40:02
Oh. But past the upgrade period, I'll no longer be able to do this. Correct?
MS Chat: at 15:40:29
Once you have transferred it and the free upgrade period had pass, you can't.
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Source

What Microsoft says about this on several of its web pages takes on new meaning when supplied with this context:

"You have until July 29, 2016 to take advantage of this free upgrade offer." (Source, second question)

"To take advantage of this free offer, you must upgrade to Windows 10 within one year of availability." (Source, bottom of page, footnote 1)
 
Sounds reasonable, logical, and fine to me.
 
But that seems to conflict with the license agreement for Win10:

Transfer. The provisions of this section do not apply if you acquired the software as a consumer in Germany or in any of the countries listed on this site (aka.ms/transfer), in which case any transfer of the software to a third party, and the right to use it, must comply with applicable law.

a. Software preinstalled on device. If you acquired the software preinstalled on a device (and also if you upgraded from software preinstalled on a device), you may transfer the license to use the software directly to another user, only with the licensed device. The transfer must include the software and, if provided with the device, an authentic Windows label including the product key. Before any permitted transfer, the other party must agree that this agreement applies to the transfer and use of the software.

b. Stand-alone software. If you acquired the software as stand-alone software (and also if you upgraded from software you acquired as stand-alone software), you may transfer the software to another device that belongs to you. You may also transfer the software to a device owned by someone else if (i) you are the first licensed user of the software and (ii) the new user agrees to the terms of this agreement. You may use the backup copy we allow you to make or the media that the software came on to transfer the software. Every time you transfer the software to a new device, you must remove the software from the prior device. You may not transfer the software to share licenses between devices.
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http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/Useterms/Retail/Windows/10/UseTerms_Retail_Windows_10_English.htm
 
I think it's funny that we have numerous official sources from Microsoft confirming that an upgraded retail license will still be a retail license, but you get one confused Microsoft rep (likely located in some 3rd world country) to tell you something different and automatically everything else is false? :rolleyes:

I also don't understand what them only giving people a year to upgrade has anything to do with anything? It makes sense that they wouldn't want people, years from now, scrounging up old Win7/8.1 keys to get Windows 10 instead of just buying 10.
 
I've planned all along that when I end up building a new system outside of the free year, I would have to buy Windows 10, so this doesn't really change my plans to upgrade.

The only people this affects are those few who think they were going to get 10, a product key, and never have to buy an OS ever again. Which is too good to be true.
 
Yeah, it sounds like the call center rep just pulled an answer out of his butt to finish the call.

If it concerns you more than that, try writing in to MS and quote the license section along with your question.
 
if I get a new motherboard and CPU after the free upgrade period, I have to purchase a windows 10 license?
 
ronan_zj said:
if I get a new motherboard and CPU after the free upgrade period, I have to purchase a windows 10 license?
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According to how the license agreement is written...no. But apparently some people are saying that the upgrade isn't transferable for some reason.
 
carnageX said:
According to how the license agreement is written...no. But apparently some people are saying that the upgrade isn't transferable for some reason.
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Well... Win10 upgrades don't have a unique individual product keys. We'll know whether the retail Win 10 editions have unique keys.
Since the license is tied to the hardware hash, there's no way to link your previous Win10 upgrade license to the new hardware hash. So that's probbaly why people say you'll need a new license for the new hardware after Jul 29, 2016.
 
carnageX said:
According to how the license agreement is written...no. But apparently some people are saying that the upgrade isn't transferable for some reason.
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The confusion arises from how one would actually be able to exercise that right of transfer.

After a year, and a change triggering a reactivation, you are theoretically holding a right of transfer. But in order to activate the new installation on the new hardware, you'll need to reinstall 7 or 8.1 and upgrade that to 10 to generate an activated hash for your new hardware.

If you don't do an upgrade from an activated 7 or 8.1 installation, and just try to do a clean install of 10 on the new hardware, then the activation will fail since the stored hash will be for your old hardware.

If the free upgrade period is over, then you will not be able to install 10 over an activated 7 or 8.1 anymore. <<< That's the sticking point.

How do you activate 10 at that point?
Official answers are to contact MS.
The only people reporting that they have, however, are posting that MS has not been able to help.
Others and myself were told under no uncertain terms that our only option was to reinstall 7 or 8.1.
Tiburian contacted an old co-worker in support who explained to him that they have been instructed to tell customers to reinstall 7 or 8.1 and if that doesn't work to escalate the support call.

Currently, reinstalling 7 or 8.1 works so what happens when or if it doesn't is untested territory.
 
ashmelev75 said:
Well... Win10 upgrades don't have a unique individual product keys. We'll know whether the retail Win 10 editions have unique keys.
Since the license is tied to the hardware hash, there's no way to link your previous Win10 upgrade license to the new hardware hash. So that's probbaly why people say you'll need a new license for the new hardware after Jul 29, 2016.
Click to expand...
Retail Win10 do have product keys. I have copies of both Windows 10 Enterprise and Windows 10 Pro from my DreamSpark account and both generated product keys for me to use. I could just use one of those to install Win10 cleanly on my machine, but I'm wondering about my wife since she has one of my Win8 keys used on one of her laptops, and if I were to upgrade her to WIn10 and want to switch her to new hardware if the activation for 10 woudl go through.

mope54 said:
The confusion arises from how one would actually be able to exercise that right of transfer.
Click to expand...
This is mainly what I was wondering as well.

After a year, and a change triggering a reactivation, you are theoretically holding a right of transfer. But in order to activate the new installation on the new hardware, you'll need to reinstall 7 or 8.1 and upgrade that to 10 to generate an activated hash for your new hardware.

If you don't do an upgrade from an activated 7 or 8.1 installation, and just try to do a clean install of 10 on the new hardware, then the activation will fail since the stored hash will be for your old hardware.

If the free upgrade period is over, then you will not be able to install 10 over an activated 7 or 8.1 anymore. <<< That's the sticking point.

How do you activate 10 at that point?
Official answers are to contact MS.
The only people reporting that they have, however, are posting that MS has not been able to help.
Others and myself were told under no uncertain terms that our only option was to reinstall 7 or 8.1.
Tiburian contacted an old co-worker in support who explained to him that they have been instructed to tell customers to reinstall 7 or 8.1 and if that doesn't work to escalate the support call.

Currently, reinstalling 7 or 8.1 works so what happens when or if it doesn't is untested territory.
Click to expand...

I would assume it would be something like that; where after the 1 year period, you reinstall Win7/Win8, and when you go to upgrade it would possibly check if that product key was used to upgrade previously? And if it's retail, basically overwrite the hardware hash and re-activate (or force the user to call in and verify activation).
 
That is exactly what I was thinking. W10 Free Upgrade would act like Retail until next July, then it would act like OEM. The normal W10 you buy in retail will act like retail, with transfer rights.
 
Makes sense and good to know. Thank god skylake is coming out so I can hardware upgrade to that platform and not worry about any licensing issues in the future.
 
Software license on the machine indicates both scenarios OEM and Retail. Clearly states transferrable. I'm going with that written agreement on the machine vs some chat where the service rep may not have even understood all the words that were typed.
 
So, I'm planning on building a new machine early next year. Should I upgrade my current machine to Windows 10 and try to tranfer it later. Or should I wait and install Windows 8 on my next machine, then upgrade? Would the reservation I've made on my current machine still stand after I build a new machine with the same copy of windows 8?

As far as I know, there is no "retail" version of Windows 8. I bought a disc from new egg, and in the license agreement it said I could install it on another machine as long as I uninstall from the old one. Hoping that will still be the case with 10.
 
Seems this news is on other sites as well.

"After the first year, you would not be able to move the installation to a different device as the upgrade is specific to your device, not your licence or Windows account. After that first year, for devices not upgraded you would have to purchase a copy of Windows 10 through the Microsoft Store or Microsoft retail partners," Microsoft told us in a statement.
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How high up the food chain this person is remains the question.

This said, I'd like to be proven wrong on this.

I have a lot of retail copies of Win7 at our small office I'd like to upgrade, and if this is the case then it likely isn't worth the effort.
 
mda said:
Seems this news is on other sites as well.



How high up the food chain this person is remains the question.

This said, I'd like to be proven wrong on this.

I have a lot of retail copies of Win7 at our small office I'd like to upgrade, and if this is the case then it likely isn't worth the effort.
Click to expand...

I wonder, if I build a new machine within the next year, will have to install windows 8 first before I upgrade? Or can I install 10 directly? How will it know it is a transfer from a previous machine without a product key?
 
On a new machine, yes you will need to install Win8 first before you upgrade. And this must be done before the July29, 2016 upgrade window closes.

You can do unlimited clean installs/reformats on that new machine but in the event you buy a new computer/motherboard, the license appears to die with it and it is likely you will need to go back to Win8 (no upgrade) or buy a new Win10 license.
 
EnhancedInterrogator said:
I wonder, if I build a new machine within the next year, will have to install windows 8 first before I upgrade? Or can I install 10 directly? How will it know it is a transfer from a previous machine without a product key?
Click to expand...

The Windows 10 offer is a free upgrade meaning it must be installed as an upgrade over a qualifying product meaning a legit activated installation of Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 - once that first initial upgrade installation is done, you can then clean install it on the same hardware anytime you want and it won't even require a Product Key to do so.

But the offer is for a free upgrade to Windows 10, so that's how you "redeem" it.
 
Tiberian said:
The Windows 10 offer is a free upgrade meaning it must be installed as an upgrade over a qualifying product meaning a legit activated installation of Windows 7, 8, or 8.1 - once that first initial upgrade installation is done, you can then clean install it on the same hardware anytime you want and it won't even require a Product Key to do so.

But the offer is for a free upgrade to Windows 10, so that's how you "redeem" it.
Click to expand...

Ok, you missed the point of my question.

So say i install Windows 10 tomorrow on my current machine, but then I build a new PC in January. Do I install my old Win 8 disc on that new PC, then upgrade? Will my old Win 8 disc still activate after I've already upgraded it on my first machine?

This is the exact situation I'm in. I want to wait to build a new PC, probably early next year, but I'd like to have Windows 10 on my current PC without sacrificing my ability to get it on my next PC. All disc-purchased Windows 8 installs are transferable (in other words, they work like retail), but it's starting to look like that is not the case for Windows 10. If that is indeed the truth, I'll have to stick with Windows 8 until I build a new PC, install Windows 8 on that, then finally upgrade to 10.

You follow me?
 
EnhancedInterrogator said:
Ok, you missed the point of my question.

So say i install Windows 10 tomorrow on my current machine, but then I build a new PC in January. Do I install my old Win 8 disc on that new PC, then upgrade? Will my old Win 8 disc still activate after I've already upgraded it on my first machine?

This is the exact situation I'm in. I want to wait to build a new PC, probably early next year, but I'd like to have Windows 10 on my current PC without sacrificing my ability to get it on my next PC. All disc-purchased Windows 8 installs are transferable (in other words, they work like retail), but it's starting to look like that is not the case for Windows 10. If that is indeed the truth, I'll have to stick with Windows 8 until I build a new PC, install Windows 8 on that, then finally upgrade to 10.

You follow me?
Click to expand...

As per the chat log if you'd like to believe it, you can have the Win10 upgrade installed on your current machine, then when you build early next year (as long as within the upgrade window), you can install Windows 8 again to upgrade to 10 and this will be legal and acceptable as long as you remove Windows from your old machine. You cannot directly install Windows 10 onto your new machine without going through the upgrade process first, but as Tiberian has mentioned, you can do clean installs on the new machine after you have performed an upgrade install on it.
 
I followed you the first time out and the info I provided is still useful. The unfortunate situation right now at this moment as I'm typing this is that there's a lot of confusion about what's going to happen as time passes with respect to Windows 10 and potential license transfers on hardware that gets upgraded or outright replaced. Right now at this moment Windows 10 has been officially "out" for a week and already it's creating a shitstorm of controversy about hardware upgrades either for performance reasons (wanting to build a newer faster more powerful machine) or hardware failures (motherboard fries, processor dies, RAM dies, storage dies, etc and needed to be replaced) and so on.

Nobody other than Microsoft knows precisely what they're going to allow or disallow over the course of time. All we have to work with right now at this moment is what Microsoft has published not only as part of the EULA that comes with the free upgrade to Windows 10 but also what's posted in the Windows 10 FAQ at their website and anything else related to it (product activation info, license transfer info, and so on).

All I've provided people with over the past week is basically the info I've received from people working at Microsoft that I know (and worked with in the past but I'm retired now from being a Microsoft Tier 3 support admin for consumers as well as partner support) which is basically what's already published. What I've been told is that things haven't really changed overall from previous Windows operating systems and that Microsoft hasn't quite set-in-stone their Windows 10 license terms just yet - if you have problems with activating hardware you call Microsoft and you'll pretty much be told to roll back to the previous OS and re-install it then complete the upgrade to Windows 10 for the period of this free upgrade they're offering through July 28th 2016. But realize in time this process might change, and if you stick to your guns and demand assistance they WILL elevate the situation up the ladder - they're not slamming the door in the face of end users with some line like "Sorry you're screwed, buy a license and start over..." so don't expect such things. Right now because it hasn't been out long that's what Microsoft is passing on to support supervisors to pass on to the front line tech support that answers the phones.

The issue is since we're only a week in and the 30 day downgrade policy hasn't even had the chance to go into effect now - meaning that after 30 days have passed with a Windows 10 upgrade which is what's required since that's the actual offer giving it away for free - there's no way to know what Microsoft will or won't do even in spite of what they've published so far as the licensing terms.

I personally believe that after August 27th or so - about three weeks from today - we're going to see a lot of people really laying into Microsoft if and when they decide to do hardware upgrades after having upgraded to Windows 10 on July 29th as soon as it became available for them to do so. When that happens I fully expect Microsoft to revise, then revise again, and possibly revise yet again the licensing situation for Windows 10 with respect to hardware changes for most any reason.

What you're asking can only be answered by Microsoft at this time, so whenever people propose it - and it gets proposed constantly - the answer tends to be the same: Microsoft says the license rights for Windows 10 (which is an upgrade only at this time if you're getting it for free) take on the license rights of the OS you're upgrading.

Biggest problem right now? Too many "answers" spread in too many places. I just did a search again at the Microsoft support community and I find threads all over the place and they're not always providing the same exact answers - and some of these are answers provided by Microsoft personnel too (most tend to be provided by volunteers that Microsoft certified in some way or another, of course). Here's some threads to read through if you're so inclined (some of the threads are older but the information still applies to the official release of Windows 10):

How to Activate and resolve common Product key issues in Windows 10

Is FREE Windows 10 a TRAP? (Being not really free)

What if I require a clean install after a year has past?

Upgrade windows 10, what after the first year?

and they just keep coming as time passes and it will not stop anytime soon.

The Windows 10 FAQ says the following which is vague in most people's opinion:

Can I reinstall Windows 10 on my computer after upgrading?

Yes. Once you&#8217;ve upgraded to Windows 10 using the free upgrade offer, you will be able to reinstall, including a clean install, on the same device. You won&#8217;t need a product key for re-activations on the same hardware. If you make a meaningful change to your hardware, you may need to contact customer support to help with activation.
Click to expand...

Where it gets interesting is in one of the answers at the Microsoft community forum where it states:

What happens if I change my motherboard?

This will invalidate the Windows 10 upgrade license because it will no longer have a previous based qualifying license which is required for the free upgrade. You will then have to purchase a full retail Windows 10 license.
Click to expand...

and that's the part that is scaring the shit out of end users and causing the most problems - I can't find that anywhere on Microsoft's site except for that answer in the community. I checked further and found Ed Bott saying the following (he's a well respected journalist that has reported on Microsoft for decades now):

Transfer rights. I heard some observers speculate that the new terms would limit Windows 10 transfer rights. Nope. The new license agreement preserves the longstanding transfer rights: OEM copies are locked to the device on which they're sold, retail copies can be transferred to a different device as long as the old copy is removed first. (The Windows 10 EULA includes a specific exception for PC buyers in Germany, who are allowed to transfer OEM software thanks to a court ruling.)
Click to expand...

The issue is that's his take and explanation of the terms as stated in the Windows 10 EULA which means it really hasn't changed from previous Windows operating systems.

Yeah, I type a lot, sorry about that.

The basic answer is: nobody knows yet, only Microsoft, so it's a wait and see game right now at this moment because Windows 10 just came out. With enough people raising hell about the lack of clarity or even the simple understanding about what can or might happen with future licensing issues for hardware replacements or upgrades, I'm sure Microsoft will have to put out a more clear set-in-stone statement at some point so, be on the lookout for it.
 
Thanks for the info, I guess we know about as much as we can know at the moment.

Tiberian said:
But realize in time this process might change, and if you stick to your guns and demand assistance they WILL elevate the situation up the ladder - they're not slamming the door in the face of end users with some line like "Sorry you're screwed, buy a license and start over..." so don't expect such things. .
Click to expand...

The one thing that worries me is that in the past, every copy of Windows had a product key. So you could at least give them that (but I'm not sure if they actually kept track of how many times a given key was activated). Now, there is no individualized key, so outside of giving them your Win 7/8 key, they have no way of telling whether you're just some guy who downloaded an ISO and never owned Windows 7 or 8.

Also, another thing that bothers me is that I bought Windows 8 before they were actually selling retail copies. So I technically have an OEM, but at the time they had a clause in the user agreement that said I could basically use it like retail (uninstall from old machine before transferring). But I'm not super confident that would still hold up when I upgrade to 10.
 
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