From ATI to AMD back to ATI? A Journey in Futility @ [H]

Ieldra said:
Hype will inevitably backfire, in fact it did backfire when they recently announced more detailed specs of the RX480 and that it is using the full P10 die, lots of people saying they are disappointed, but those voices were drowned up by the new surge of hype based on overclocking rumors and claims of 1070 performance when OC, hype is good in moderation. I'm talking about reaction I saw on r/AMD, then again most people over there treat AdoredTV as the GPU bible so it's pretty inevitable they will be disappointed.

There was stupid hype over 1080/1070 clocking to 2500MHz on air and whatnot, it died when reviews came out in mid May. Having review embargo end the day the cards launch will not have the same effect
Click to expand...
Well P10 competition, whenever it arrives is GP106 and not GP104. When GP106 will be out is not readily known. Yet some want to compare P10 as if it is the competition for GP104. It would be nice of course if P10 was at GP104 levels - I highly doubt it. If it is at around the 980 level for $200 that is indeed progress. OC etc. is just fun for us and icing on the cake. Price/Performance/Availability is probably most important for consideration.

Since we are talking about next generation - DX12 and Vulkan is probably the most applicable API for testing. With the limited amount of games using it - that will most likely be difficult. As more and more games use the improved API's GPU performance using those API's becomes more useful for the viewers.
 
razor1 said:
They get criticized because they did some dumb things in the public eyes in the past. No one at nV can talk to the public about any products that are unannounced without their legal team's consent. Nor can they post anything on forums about even released products without legal consent if that information hasn't been released yet. Its been that for ages. Not to mention they are actively told not to engage company talks on any public level. (most large corporations are like this too, when an employee, doesn't matter who it is, could be a lowly secretary or a VP, they represent the company) AMD on the other hand doesn't have this and there were times where certain things were stated that shouldn't have been stated.
Click to expand...
Nvidia worst enemy at times is Jen-Hsun Huang: Wood screws on a mock up video card, OCing of the 1080, 2.1ghz and 60c lol. FoolsEdition etc. And one ugly ass looking card as well which one could put the batmobile tires on it :LOL:. All kidding aside, Nvidia this round has some things being criticized now by HardOCP.
 
Yep it does happen, on both sides, things like that never get forgotten lol.

On the thought of API's, AMD does have an intrinsic advantage with DX12 because of the updated Xbox one, but again, we don't know how well code done for the original Xbox One would translate over to the updated one (performance of low level code) since MS seems to be taking the same road as Sony having both versions from a game point of view done for both consoles, and how that comes over to PC variants.
 
The good thing is when they get called out on it which makes it fun for us and pushes them to be better. AMD this round I think are being a little bit smarter. Hopefully they have a decent product in the price category they are aiming for.

GP104 really doesn't have much competition from AMD other then if AMD reduces the pricing significantly on the Fury line but still the 1080 will be tops, we may assume Vega will do that but that is what 6 months! Then again will Nvidia give any competition at the P11 and P10, the less then $300 area that too could be 6 months before Nvidia responds. Of the two scenarios AMD if they have a great product will probably win out. Nvidia has great products on the high end being limited by availability and price ( which limits sells).
 
noko said:
The good thing is when they get called out on it which makes it fun for us and pushes them to be better. AMD this round I think are being a little bit smarter. Hopefully they have a decent product in the price category they are aiming for.

GP104 really doesn't have much competition from AMD other then if AMD reduces the pricing significantly on the Fury line but still the 1080 will be tops, we may assume Vega will do that but that is what 6 months! Then again will Nvidia give any competition at the P11 and P10, the less then $300 area that too could be 6 months before Nvidia responds. Of the two scenarios AMD if they have a great product will probably win out. Nvidia has great products on the high end being limited by availability and price ( which limits sells).
Click to expand...


Actually AMD has taken the criticism of last gen power hungriness very well, they create a product that could do very well in the mid range segment, they aren't going to go crazy with clocks like they did with Fiji, or the Hawaii and Granada just to get them to where nV is, instead they did a good plan with mid range and a back up Vega for performance and enthusiast, yes they loose some things of not being in those markets, even if that wasn't the original plan and P10 was supposed to be in the performance segment, the shift still buys them time without loosing ground or face. which they have definitely been loosing ground and publicly criticized for their power usage since Maxwell 2's release until recently they have gained some back but that was more of a novelty of equalization of having products in the market. If they do the same thing again, and up the clocks to crazy levels to compete with the performance cards from nV they will get called out on it and it will be even worse this time because its already happened once before.

And if nV gets out 1060 in lets say a month or month and half, that still is some time to sell product without direct competition, limited yeah but its still there. Mainstream and performance segments are the same size, so AMD should be able to gain some marketshare in the next quarter at least.

That is the thing I think people forget, I am 100% positive AMD is going to gain marketshare these coming two Q's despite the performance comparisons of comparable cards it can be lower or higher doesn't matter, just because OEM's will pick them up as alternatives to nV products since the power consumption is manageable. (the amount comes down to the comparison and arrival date of the 1060 but at the low end and soon arrival, 5% increase per quarter)
 
Last edited:
I still haven't found anything that disputes the statements in this article. Accepting the notion that Polaris was originally intended to be AMDs next gen top of the line card, then everything Kyle has written has been supported by the facts as we know them so far. I expect the reviews to vindicate [H]'s venerable editor to all but the true AMD faithful. Anyone hoping for a market resurgence for AMD is likely going to be disappointed, GTX 1060s, cheap 390s, cheap GTX 970s, and a razor thin profit margin are going to be major challenges to AMDs recovery.
 
17seconds said:
I still haven't found anything that disputes the statements in this article. Accepting the notion that Polaris was originally intended to be AMDs next gen top of the line card, then everything Kyle has written has been supported by the facts as we know them so far. I expect the reviews to vindicate [H]'s venerable editor to all but the true AMD faithful. Anyone hoping for a market resurgence for AMD is likely going to be disappointed, GTX 1060s, cheap 390s, cheap GTX 970s, and a razor thin profit margin are going to be major challenges to AMDs recovery.
Click to expand...

yeah guess they are banking on everyone buying two and having faith in their driver department.
 
Ieldra said:
Hype will inevitably backfire, in fact it did backfire when they recently announced more detailed specs of the RX480 and that it is using the full P10 die, lots of people saying they are disappointed, but those voices were drowned up by the new surge of hype based on overclocking rumors and claims of 1070 performance when OC, hype is good in moderation. I'm talking about reaction I saw on r/AMD, then again most people over there treat AdoredTV as the GPU bible so it's pretty inevitable they will be disappointed.

There was stupid hype over 1080/1070 clocking to 2500MHz on air and whatnot, it died when reviews came out in mid May. Having review embargo end the day the cards launch will not have the same effect
Click to expand...


In the spirit of slowing down the hype train, I present a more measured article from the gold standard of graphics card news. WCCFTECH

AMD RX 480 Overclocked To 1.6Ghz+, Cooler Tear Down & Production Line Photos Leaked


... Can't slow down. Excelsior, Fly ever higher my Icarus, fly towards the sun, don't let the heat and power warnings slow you down, it's time the gods of higher priced cards stopped being the only ones to taste the sky
 
Nauseous said:
yeah guess they are banking on everyone buying two and having faith in their driver department.
Click to expand...

To add to that, they are banking on enthusiasts, brand loyalists and those who have invested in Freesync displays to get to cards. For most of their volume, they are lookimg to move in the midrange.
 
razor1 said:
Lets do a poll then, how many people here have a DELL, HP or Lenovo for their gaming system?
Click to expand...

This post has 2 sides ;) 1 side where you are forgetting that with thunderbolt 3 soon you can have your own Dell HP or Lenovo gaming system due to external graphics card ;) .

But the other side is where those OEM really don't sell to gamers because we are a niche market to them.
 
harmattan said:
To add to that, they are banking on enthusiasts, brand loyalists and those who have invested in Freesync displays to get to cards. For most of their volume, they are lookimg to move in the midrange.
Click to expand...
You are looking at this way to one sided, if AMD releases new cards no one is forced to shell out money , your system might just function fine the way it is. I don't see waves of people posting quad crossfire remarks some are referring to double but that is it. If you looked at this forum closely over a few more topics you could have spotted a trend for certain people to pick up cheap 980 TI I have seen a good amount people post this then the full on hype train for 2 RX 480 ...
Nauseous said:
yeah guess they are banking on everyone buying two and having faith in their driver department.
Click to expand...
Well Nvidia drivers haven't been something to talk about lately with crashes and such, that goes both ways.
 
Mav451 said:
IMO that was really petty of AMD to react that way, and more so that Raja (technical head) would do this - with no transparency to the community.
That said, we'll see how the hardware plays out of course - and AMD's sampling of a RX480 is somewhat of a compromise.

But man - a straight out ban? I really question AMD's integrity if that's how they react.
Roy Taylor already put a huge black mark on their maturity in community interaction.

Raja pulling this passive/aggressive move does not sit well with me at all - very underhanded.

You consider that AMD's current campaign is about democratization and a populist message: effective in an election year.
But then pulling this closed-door shadow ban? Very questionable.
Click to expand...

W.T.F.?
 
Mav451 said:
IMO that was really petty of AMD to react that way, and more so that Raja (technical head) would do this - with no transparency to the community.
That said, we'll see how the hardware plays out of course - and AMD's sampling of a RX480 is somewhat of a compromise.

But man - a straight out ban? I really question AMD's integrity if that's how they react.
Roy Taylor already put a huge black mark on their maturity in community interaction.

Raja pulling this passive/aggressive move does not sit well with me at all - very underhanded.

You consider that AMD's current campaign is about democratization and a populist message: effective in an election year.
But then pulling this closed-door shadow ban? Very questionable.
Click to expand...
All this shit will blow over sooner or latter and [H] and AMD will be close partners again...If it takes a few articles from Brent so be it....Brent will gives us the same info and AMD wont get their pantys in a bunch. People that think Brent is Nvidia biased have to be delusional cause it obvious he intentionally goes a bit easy on AMD for the most part......And that makes AMD happy all without BS'ing us either.....Im a big fan of AMD gpus but i dont see the reaction on either side a big deal.... I look forward to Brents 480 reviews wether some brass at AMD is upset or not....cause i dont give a fuck lol
 
primetime said:
All this shit will blow over sooner or latter and [H] and AMD will be close partners again...If it takes a few articles from Brent so be it....Brent will gives us the same info and AMD wont get their pantys in a bunch. People that think Brent is Nvidia biased have to be delusional cause it obvious he intentionally goes a bit easy on AMD for the most part......And that makes AMD happy all without BS'ing us either.....Im a big fan of AMD gpus but i dont see the reaction on either side a big deal.... I look forward to Brents 480 reviews wether some brass at AMD is upset or not....cause i dont give a fuck lol
Click to expand...
Anyone that's someone know for sure that Kile is Nvidia biased and Steve is AMD biased. They switch turns depending of timezone, season, tidal wave, moon phase, position of the milky way in the galaxy and last but not least the butterfly effect. :LOL::LOL::LOL::rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
I am feeling somewhat AMD biased this afternoon. Watch this. I think the RX 480 will likely be the most powerful gaming GPU we have ever seen at the $200 price point bar none.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Kyle, if you're being serious, even you have to then acknowledge how bad that looks in light of your original article. Perception is reality, remember? It looks like you're trying to walk back your article and do damage control without admitting it.

Or, you could just be trolling the shit out of us. In which case, I'll admit that would be epic. :p
Click to expand...
You can perceive whatever you want. I have said continually that price point was the ONLY thing AMD could do with Polaris to salvage it and that is what it has to do. It has no other choice. I stand by every word I wrote. Do you think when I wrote that article that I was not aware of what exactly was going on with Polaris? The fact of the matter is that Polaris has not and will not scale clock-wise they way they want it to while keeping down thermal envelopes. I would suggest that if you are seeing that statement as a walkback, you have never understood what I actually WROTE. I have seen a lot of people say, "Kyle said this.....Kyle said that...." and if you went back to that editorial and tried to find a quote of mine to back up those statements, many times it simply was not possible. Reading is fundamental. If you would care to point out any inconsistencies, I would be happy to address those. You want to go first?

And keep this in mind, I have given AMD every chance to correct anything that is wrong in the article. One the politics side of things, I understand that not happening, but on the hardware side??? If you believe that AMD is on target with what it wanted out of Polaris then you believe that. People that work at AMD have told me a very different story.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Kyle, if you're being serious, even you have to then acknowledge how bad that looks in light of your original article. Perception is reality, remember? It looks like you're trying to walk back your article and do damage control without admitting it now that (potentially) you have a RX480 you've done tests on.

Or, you could just be trolling the shit out of us. In which case, I'll admit that would be epic. :p
Click to expand...
U 2 srius
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Kyle, if you're being serious, even you have to then acknowledge how bad that looks in light of your original article. Perception is reality, remember? It looks like you're trying to walk back your article and do damage control without admitting it now that (potentially) you have a RX480 you've done tests on.

Or, you could just be trolling the shit out of us. In which case, I'll admit that would be epic. :p
Click to expand...


Are YOU being serious? I can't tell.

Of course the 480 is the best performing gpu at its price. So is the 1070, so is the 1080....

So was the 980ti, 970,980, 390...

If it wasn't the best performing gpu for $200 then previous gen offering would have to have been better and that would make no sense
 
Zion Halcyon said:
now that (potentially) you have a RX480 you've done tests on.
Click to expand...
And to point out I personally have not been briefed on Polaris by AMD and I do not have a sample from AMD. Brent was briefed today, but I was not a part of that at all, and I have not, and will not be discussing it with him up till launch day as to specifics. I talked to a couple of larger hardware sites today as well and I was told by those people that they did not have RX 480 samples in hand yet either. I am not privy to any information from AMD and do not consider myself under embargo and I would prefer to keep it that way until I have to exposed of course when it comes to editing and checking the material we are going to publish.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
As I said, perception is reality. Maybe you need to go back and re-read what I said about THAT instead of getting so defensive. I love [H] and you and the editors who put their blood sweat and tears into it. But with as hard as you laid into AMD, the words end up getting lost, but the tone is what remains with people. Is it fair? Certainly not. Does it mean people end up believing you said some things you didn't? Yes. But like I said - perception is reality. And that is something no one escapes from without time and the desire to change perception.

Perception is reality, and just as you might not give a damn about perception, it also does not give a damn about you, and that is precisely what makes it so dangerous...
Click to expand...

Wha - I don't even... What?

I think I get the gist of what you're saying, but people believe what they want to, they will perceive Kyle's editorial differently depending on how they *feel*

If I'm not mistaken kyle said they are busy 'spitshining a turd'

Now look at how they presented performance at the announcement; crossfire setup, intentionally deceptive bogus 51% utilization figure, vague terms like >5tflops...
 
Fixall said:
I'd hope so... It just has to beat the 380 that was released a year ago to achieve this, lol.
Click to expand...
No it has to beat the 380x and the 960 by a wide margin..a bit more than just beating a 380....so far it looks like double the performance at that price. When was the last time that happened? Possibly never lol
 
Zion Halcyon said:
As I said, perception is reality. Maybe you need to go back and re-read what I said about THAT instead of getting so defensive. I love [H] and you and the editors who put their blood sweat and tears into it. But with as hard as you laid into AMD, the words end up getting lost, but the tone is what remains with people. Is it fair? Certainly not. Does it mean people end up believing you said some things you didn't? Yes. But like I said - perception is reality. And that is something no one escapes from without time and the desire to change perception.

Perception is reality, and just as you might not give a damn about perception, it also does not give a damn about you, and that is precisely what makes it so dangerous...
Click to expand...
Your thoughts are noted again. I really did understand it the first time you typed it out. Promise. If I gave shit about what a bunch of AMD fanboys perceive, I would have never written the editorial to begin with. Reading is fundamental, and I know a lot of people that post on forums do not have skillset, but I am not going to shut up about what I know to be true because I am worried about people getting their panties in a wad about it.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Those sort of details don't matter however if your readership takes a hit.
Click to expand...
Never have given a shit about readership numbers and am not going to start now. We do what we do and we sell ads. When that does not work, we will turn the domain into a pr0n site and walk away. ;)

Edit: And I will say this. Have you ever seen a "donation" button on HardOCP or HardForum? How many times have you seen other hardware review sites beg / ask for donations? I am not doing that bullshit. We either have a business model that works or we do not.
 
primetime said:
No it has to beat the 380x and the 960 by a wide margin..a bit more than just beating a 380....so far it looks like double the performance at that price. When was the last time that happened? Possibly never lol
Click to expand...

The release price for the 380X was $229 while the 380 was released starting at $199. The release price for the GTX 960 was $199. The 380 is faster than the 960. Thus to be "...the most powerful gaming GPU we have ever seen at the $200 price point..." the RX480 only needs to be faster than the 380.

Double the performance of a 380 is between 980 and 980 Ti performance. Personally I think you're smoking crack if that what you're expecting, but I guess we'll see.
 
Last edited:
noko said:
Actually AMD did indicate Polaris was a full range chip - Will need to find the video from Raja who indicated full range from low to performance gpus - that did change to Mainstream lately. So that would be less then expectations for Polaris or Nvidia performance was above expectations (maybe both).

If this is a process issue then I am wondering if Zen is also affected since on the same process?

Anyways I think your right with price, AMD can turn this around with performance/$ ratio as long as they can produce the quantity needed for a Mainstream and lower product. I think it does show AMD resolve to win. Next questions I would have is how is the Fiji line pricing going to change? Will AMD price the Fury at below 1070 prices? FuryX with premium cooling a little bit higher?

Edit: Thought, with the low quantity of 1070's getting the Fury line in the price range, promote DX12 DX12 DX12 with bench marks (more then AoTs) folks looking for a GPU may just get too frustrated and buy AMD.
Click to expand...


Polaris is a full range chip, just a different range than the enthusiast crowd prefers.

Kyle wants an ultralisk, but amd is targeting this:

59ceFgC.jpg




AMD has the jump there, so whether the performance was intended to land wherever it lands or not, amd has that market all to itself for now.

But perf/watt!
But rah rah nvidia 1070 so superior!
blah, blah, blah


If the rx480 is a fallen angel who failed to reach the heavens that take up that last chunk of the gpu buying populace, it will still cut through that large market void like a hot knife through butter. IF this is a failure, it's the sweetest failure amd could have hoped for.
 
tybert7 said:
Polaris is a full range chip, just a different range than the enthusiast crowd prefers.

Kyle wants an ultralisk, but amd is targeting this:

59ceFgC.jpg




AMD has the jump there, so whether the performance was intended to land wherever it lands or not, amd has that market all to itself for now.

But perf/watt!
But rah rah nvidia 1070 so superior!
blah, blah, blah


If the rx480 is a fallen angel who failed to reach the heavens that take up that last chunk of the gpu buying populace, it will still cut through that large market void like a hot knife through butter. IF this is a failure, it's the sweetest failure amd could have hoped for.
Click to expand...


Interesting perspective. Might even be correct.
 
tybert7 said:
Polaris is a full range chip, just a different range than the enthusiast crowd prefers.

Kyle wants an ultralisk, but amd is targeting this:

59ceFgC.jpg




AMD has the jump there, so whether the performance was intended to land wherever it lands or not, amd has that market all to itself for now.

But perf/watt!
But rah rah nvidia 1070 so superior!
blah, blah, blah


If the rx480 is a fallen angel who failed to reach the heavens that take up that last chunk of the gpu buying populace, it will still cut through that large market void like a hot knife through butter. IF this is a failure, it's the sweetest failure amd could have hoped for.
Click to expand...

So AMD will have no $300 to $400 chip this generation? Or will they move Fiji down into that spot? A hell a lot of cards get sold in this range like the 970. I don't think the 390/390x would fill that order, those are EOL and should be sold as low as possible. Nvidia looks like they shift everything up $100+; 970 - $329 to 1070 $449 (I doubt we will see the ghost MSRP of $379 for a long while), same with 980 - $549 to 1080 Fedition $699 with AIB boards (hell they are indeed better why would they be cheaper then a FE?) for even more.

I do agree if AMD can price a good to great performing cards for the money in the big sell zone price range - they will sell many as long as they can build them.
 
lolfail9001 said:
Uhem, what? EMA is not any sort of magic bullet. At all.
Click to expand...

Yet, it is built into Direct X12 which makes all the difference. However, I do not see Nvidia rushing out and supporting this since then, it would make their blackbox stuff less relevant.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Its actually to their credit if they can turn a technical failure into a financial success, at least from a business standpoint.

You just don't want to be in the habit of having to do that all the time, because eventually it catches up to you, and you get to something you can't turn around.
Click to expand...
I agree 100%!

Bulldozer did little to set AMD up for continued "success."
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Its actually to their credit if they can turn a technical failure into a financial success, at least from a business standpoint.

You just don't want to be in the habit of having to do that all the time, because eventually it catches up to you, and you get to something you can't turn around.
Click to expand...
Winners don't quite even if they are behind is what you are saying.
 
ManofGod said:
Yet, it is built into Direct X12 which makes all the difference. However, I do not see Nvidia rushing out and supporting this since then, it would make their blackbox stuff less relevant.
Click to expand...
You are just exposing how little you know, man. And your signature still contains contradictions.
Zion Halcyon said:
Its actually to their credit if they can turn a technical failure into a financial success, at least from a business standpoint.

You just don't want to be in the habit of having to do that all the time, because eventually it catches up to you, and you get to something you can't turn around.
Click to expand...

Also, while we're on that, if you ask me, Tonga was larger failure than Polaris 10 from technical PoV. Of course now i have suspicion that failure was set up by AMD with the whole GCN's SME thing, but nonetheless.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Its actually to their credit if they can turn a technical failure into a financial success, at least from a business standpoint.

You just don't want to be in the habit of having to do that all the time, because eventually it catches up to you, and you get to something you can't turn around.
Click to expand...

Yeah, if. If it was originally targeting a higher performance and didn't get there then the costs are still the same but they can't get as much for it. Time will tell.

We'll probably have to wait a quarter or two to see if Kyle's editorial was right, at least about the 480. The rest will probably take longer.
 
Problem is, if all AMD has is pricing for the 480, then that is already a loss. You can get a custom 8GB R9-390 for $250, the exact same price and likely the same performance as a custom 8GB RX 480. And there are custom GTX 970s, right about the same performance level for less than that. If the 480 is supposed to dominate it's price range, it's already up against plenty of stiff competition a full week before it's release date.
 
17seconds said:
Problem is, if all AMD has is pricing for the 480, then that is already a loss. You can get a custom 8GB R9-390 for $250, the exact same price and likely the same performance as a custom 8GB RX 480. And there are custom GTX 970s, right about the same performance level for less than that. If the 480 is supposed to dominate it's price range, it's already up against plenty of stiff competition a full week before it's release date.
Click to expand...
What can ~$200 buy you today?

upload_2016-6-22_9-27-18.png
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top