From ATI to AMD back to ATI? A Journey in Futility @ [H]

Discussion in 'AMD Flavor' started by Kyle_Bennett, May 27, 2016.

  1. fingerbob69

    fingerbob69 [H]Lite

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    I was responding to your assertion that

    "Frontier edition, will be the fastest compute output of all the Vega's. That puts gaming vega's at less clocks or are cut down versions (I think its the prior as they have shown those types of cards to public already)"

    So wind your patronising neck back in and go shove the attitude where the sun don't shine....


    ....please.
     
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  2. razor1

    razor1 JustReason is my Lover

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    if compute performance is the fastest for single GPU cards, the Vega FE which is >25 fp 16 flops and >12.5 fp 32 flops, all other cards have be less that what ever that >25 fp 16 flops and >12.5 fp 32 flops.

    We are not talking about application performance directly, he was talking about flops and mentioned flops.

    So how do you get other cards less than the >25 fp 16 flops and >12.5 fp 32 flops figures? LESS clocks or CUT cores. Right? Only two explanations.
     
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  3. rgMekanic

    rgMekanic [H]ard|News Staff Member

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  4. fingerbob69

    fingerbob69 [H]Lite

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    You were talking clocks. "less clocks".

    The Frontier Edition clocks at 1600.

    You stated RX Vega will be "at less clocks" compared to the Frontier.

    Raja stated RX Vega will be faster than Frontier.
     
  5. Kyle_Bennett

    Kyle_Bennett El Chingón Staff Member

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    I am getting an informed answer together now. Funny the fool did big stories on rumors then days don't trade on those. Lol
     
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  6. razor1

    razor1 JustReason is my Lover

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    Raja never stated clocks will be faster on the consumer Vega vs Frontier dude.

    He stated gaming performance will be faster due to drivers not clocks

    What are they optimizing? The card? NO its the driver.
     
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  7. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    Unless they are horribly mistaken, they bring up a very good point. Intel doesn't have to keep paying for the NVidia GPU patents, Intel paid for use of these patents until they expire!

    This means Intel does NOT need any kind of patent protection on the GPU front.

    Which makes an AMD agreement even less likely.
     
  8. fingerbob69

    fingerbob69 [H]Lite

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    So in comparing Pro cards to Consumer versions the only optimisation Raja's talking about are driver optimisations? That's your interpritation, no fact.

    But let's suppose you're right. The only change from Pro to Consumer is the driver ...then RX Vega clocked at 1600 isn't going to be any slouch!
     
  9. razor1

    razor1 JustReason is my Lover

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    They are the same chip, that's how AMD and nV been making them for years lol, its just driver differences.
     
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  10. Bahanime

    Bahanime Limp Gawd

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    Pro Drivers. RX Vega can't even run some pro apps, and certainly will fail in machine learning apps without driver support. So it's a rather iffy statement.
     
  11. OKThen

    OKThen n00bie

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  12. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Now that got interesting.
     
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  13. digitalmango

    digitalmango n00bie

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    Either way AMD's stock took another hit. Got nothing to prop up the stock until end of June. Yeah they will reveal Vega at Computex but release won't be til end of June next to Epyc.
     
  14. SighTurtle

    SighTurtle Gawd

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    All that statement says is that AMD understands what advantages they have, and aren't stupid enough to give them away.

    In my opinion, this does not preclude a third-party asking for a specific product combining both Intel and AMD tech.

    Edit: for that 3rd party's exclusive use.
     
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  15. rgMekanic

    rgMekanic [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Let it drop, I'll just buy more then :)
     
  16. razor1

    razor1 JustReason is my Lover

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    Was about to say the same thing.
     
  17. whateverer

    whateverer AMD Owns Techreport

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    Told you this was complete horse shit. The Intel->Nvidia license seems to be ongoing, even if the payments have stopped. And an on-package AMD GPU attached to an Intel CPU is yet-another blue-sky pipe-dream.

    You'd probably have an easier time making a GPU on an m.2 card, if you really wanted small. And THAT would be replaceable, AND requires no cross-licensing.

    This pipe-dream of a GPU-on-package runs-into the same thermal limits as any other high-end APU does. So no serious system could use both simultaneously in a small case. And larger systems would just be better-served with a PCIe graphics card.

    FINALLY, WHY THE FUCK WOULD AMD HELP INTEL?
    A full-on purchase of the GPU business I could see, but anything less was just pure idiocy produced by dreamers who haven't the slightest clue on how to run a business.

    To Quote Lisa:

    "We're not looking at enabling a competitor to compete against our products"

    That should have been obvious to all these big dreamers. It's pretty clear to me why she's running things, and the rest of you are not.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  18. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    IMO people are starting to using Conspiracy theory type logic to defend this. There is nothing left to stand on.

    It's been denied by Intel and AMD.

    The NVidia licence that Intel bought was perpetual for all patents issued up until early 2017, so Intel does NOT need a new GPU license.

    The notion of putting AMD GPUs inside an Intel CPU package, is pretty much toxic to both Intel and AMD:

    • For Intel it would be admission they can't design a decent IGP after coming so far.
    • For AMD it would give up their only potential Raven Ridge advantage. Raven Ridge is arguably their most important product. To Undercut it by letting Intel AMD IGP would be criminally inept.

    There is just nothing left to defend this rumor...
     
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  19. SighTurtle

    SighTurtle Gawd

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    I'm not defending the rumor, I'm just looking at the perspective of it being true.
     
  20. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    high-end APUs run into thermal limits? What?
     
  21. Presbytier

    Presbytier [H]ard|Gawd

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    That is technically a defense. Semantics aside they allowed this rumor to linger a real long time before trying to squash it, so it is possible they where negotiating and it fell through. It's also possible the original source was trusted enough to run with the info none of this means the reporting was bad. We don't really know what was going on behind closed doors and speculative reporting always has a chance to fall through no reason to get up in arms over it.
     
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  22. whateverer

    whateverer AMD Owns Techreport

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    You can only extract so much heat from a single IHS, or did you fail basic thermodynamics?

    Think of all the fun people are having keeping their 7700k cool. Now make it more complicated because you have a 120w beefcake RX 570 on the same die.

    It's a whole lot easier to cool two separate devices. That's how the Surface Book does it's magic.

    An APU of any appreciable performance level (say, 4x more powerful than AMD IGP) will hit thermal limits. Anything less, and were back to the "why the hell would you do that if it's barely faster than existing IGP" question
     
  23. SighTurtle

    SighTurtle Gawd

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    Isn't RX 570 way beyond high-end APU possibilities?
     
  24. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    It's way beyond what AMD is going to deliver for Raven Ridge, which is expected to have about 700 Stream Processors, and obviously a lot less memory bandwidth, than even budget GPUs.
     
  25. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Because it's thermal transfer inside the IHS is impeded by a glue?
    It will actually become much easier, because now you can just solder that 200 or more mm^2 die to IHS. Yes, TDP will have to be set pretty high (like 95W minimum for a package with decent GPU) , but that's the GPU price, what can you do. Hell, if GPU was sufficiently energy efficient, you could probably fit something like 7700hq + 1050 into that package with plenty room to spare.
     
  26. whateverer

    whateverer AMD Owns Techreport

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    Well yeah, but if they were going to deliver on-package graphics for Intel, you betet your ass it should be at least rttwice as fast as raven ridge. Otherwise why bother?
     
  27. SighTurtle

    SighTurtle Gawd

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    Oh, thats what you meant? I've never really considered the scenario where AMD gives Intel better APUs to be believable.
     
  28. Anarchist4000

    Anarchist4000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Nor does it preclude integrating two separate dice on the same package. Which wouldn't involve IP licensing, but acquiring another companies product. No licensing deals exist to put discrete cards in a system as is. That was always the likely scenario.

    Yet we already have CPUs and GPUs capable of far more heat dissipation with even smaller coolers? It's a miracle! Just imagine all the smoke given off by a graphics card over 120W as it struggles to run under 50C. Breaks all those laws of physics and combines the CPU and GPU with double the transistor density of even the most compact fabrication process!

    Or a large CPU sized cooler could dissipate well over 300W, exceeding even discrete card specifications, if the <85C operating temperature of most GPUs was a target. Even Vega10 and a 1800X would barely need to pass that limit. Maybe a dual Vega10 plus Ryzen APU for even better performance at less wattage?

    I'm sure the guys with PhD's from writing papers don't know nearly as much about this as people on a hardware forum.
     
  29. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    APUs have never made sense from a value perspective... at least for us here at hard forum. A shitty processor and low end GPU is cheaper and multiples better. A few months ago I did a 860k/1050ti build for traveling rather than an APU.

    Now, if AMD could get their GPUs into Intel's chip they'd certainly do it. You get basically profit off of the majority of the market with no risk. Businesses make deals like that all the time.
     
  30. spine

    spine 2[H]4U

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    I think the most generous interpretation at this point is that there was some deal going on, but that's now fallen by the side.

    So of course it's being denied, and now it's simply the clout of Kyle's word remaining. However, that still weights highly for me at least, given I've never seen such an article quite like this from him. Felt odd when he first came out with it, like there would be follow up joke post or something...
     
  31. Ninjaman67

    Ninjaman67 n00bie

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    APU's in a corporate setting is where the value is. They are meant for PC's in the workplace that have 4000+ PC's that don't use a lot of electricity. That can be a lot of money saved on energy costs.
     
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  32. Dayaks

    Dayaks [H]ardness Supreme

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    For a corporate setting doesn't a more energy efficient intel CPU with IGPU make sense? Not like they need a GPU for games... and professionals generally use Quadros.
     
  33. Ninjaman67

    Ninjaman67 n00bie

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    sometimes. however some applications don't work well with the intel embedded gpu and quite frankly they fail often.
     
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  34. whateverer

    whateverer AMD Owns Techreport

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    Absolutely for me.

    My company cheaped-out and went AMD Trinity dual-core instead of Intel Ivy Bridge dual-core. I regret it every day, since it's slower than my old Core 2 Duo.

    More powerful APUs are meaningless for work, except for those using CAD. And for most of those they'll pay for a dedicated card, since the Quadro/FirePro cards unlock many times improved performance.

    Sure, I have way more GPU power than the old GMA950, but you wouldn't know it.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2017
  35. Ninjaman67

    Ninjaman67 n00bie

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    That's funny because the company I work for went intel only and our hardware team has to be a 24 hour shop to keep things going. I am one of 7 that fixes windows and lan issues for this company's location and we are business hours only. we have a 4 year refresh cycle that should really be a 3 year cycle. But hey, corporations are cheap.
     
  36. trandoanhung1991

    trandoanhung1991 Gawd

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    What's the use case for APUs? I'm struggling to think why one needs an APU in a desktop setting when you can shove a GTX 1080 + i7 7700K into a case the size of a PS4. Even for mobile I don't see a niche for it.

    An APU, IMO, is an oxymoron. Pair a powerful CPU and a powerful GPU onto the same die for space savings, yet the irony here is that to be able to cool it you absolutely need a lot of space for heatpipes, fans and heatsinks. Smaller is not better in this case, since even with an IHS it's difficult to fit many heatpipes on top of the die.

    The only laptop with the beefiest APU (Carrizo/Bristol Ridge) is as heavy as the lightest laptops featuring 6700HQ/7700HQ + 1070. Both hover around 2.2-2.8kg. I chose the top of the line APU model, maxing out at 35-45W.

    APU laptops: 15.6 inch, 2.2-2.7kg. i7 x700HQ + 1070 laptops: 2.2-2.7kg. TPD wise x700HQ + 1070 combo is around 4-5 times higher. So where's the APU advantage?
     
  37. rgMekanic

    rgMekanic [H]ard|News Staff Member

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    Sweet! Send me $1500 so I can build my mother a new email/facebook/web game machine!
     
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  38. trandoanhung1991

    trandoanhung1991 Gawd

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    What's wrong with Core M for that use case? Why do you need an APU? What's wrong with Core M/Celeron for email/facebook/web game? All those use cases you mentioned favor the stronger CPU cores of Core M/Atom over AMD APUs.

    Your mother can get by with a $250 Celeron-powered notebook. Why does she need an APU when she won't use the GPU?
     
  39. Snowdog

    Snowdog Pasty Nerd with Poor Cardio

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    Core M/Celeron are essentially APUs as well.

    The new Raven Ridge will just be a better one.

    Most PCs sold today are laptops, and AMD needs a good APU primarily for the laptop market.

    I am always reading the GOG forums, and the people having the most trouble running games are people using Intel laptops and their integrated graphics.

    This market would likely do a lot better with a nice AMD APU.
     
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  40. lolfail9001

    lolfail9001 [H]ard|Gawd

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    If that APU is as memory limited as Intel iGPUs are, then they will struggle just as much.
     
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