My guess is they will both put back about the same percentage, but that's hardly the point. The statement was 7 mgd was going to drain the lake, but just Cleveland uses over 30x that, and then there's Detroit, Toledo, Chicago, Milwaukee, etc. I hope whatever pollutants they use are removed. But also know that at least as of a decade ago Cleveland used combined sewers and raw sewage overflows into Lake Erie in every heavy rain. That human waste, along with farm fertilizer runoff is feeding the annual poisonous algae blooms every summer.
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Foxconn Will Drain Lake Michigan to Make LCD Screens
- Thread starter Megalith
- Start date
theBrownLlama
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which idiotic policy maker does not impose existing regulations of effluent returns to a potable water source..
and which bigger idiot got paid off to carve out an exception for Foxconn...
and which bigger idiot got paid off to carve out an exception for Foxconn...
I' m of two minds on this one. I live South of Atlanta near the chattahoochee river and the gov gave warnings here not to eat more than one fish a week from the river because of contamination....so I see the fear. If foxconn builds a new state of the art plant there and does strict water quality control I see minimal impact.
Well Every time people bitch about all the manufacturing jobs going to China they seem to forget that this sort of stuff go's to china too. I mean sure they get the jobs but are those really jobs we want here, let someone else breathe toxic air and clean LCD screens with chemicals the cause long term neurological damage; imo however much they are paying it's still not enough to be worth all the knock on effects.
w1retap
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This reminds me of the 2004 "Lake Michigan Sprung a Leak" article because scientists discovered that 10M gallons per day is backflowing into Lake Michigan from Lake Huron. Everyone was freaking out because the bottled water companies were "sucking the lake dry".. yet since that time (and additional backflow) Lake Michigan is actually up 2ft in water level -- above the mean long-term water level dating back since the year 1918 records. https://www.glerl.noaa.gov/data/wlevels/levels.html#observations
The only real concern here is possible pollution from Foxconn. If samples are taken and it shows anything above federal limits, I would wager they would have to correct the problem, pay fines, and deal with a shitload of public/media backlash. Living on Lake Erie myself and working at a power plant on the lake, it's dealt with pretty seriously. None of us want our Great Lakes polluted.
The only real concern here is possible pollution from Foxconn. If samples are taken and it shows anything above federal limits, I would wager they would have to correct the problem, pay fines, and deal with a shitload of public/media backlash. Living on Lake Erie myself and working at a power plant on the lake, it's dealt with pretty seriously. None of us want our Great Lakes polluted.
Luke Wells
n00b
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Ice Mountain (nestle) has been taking more than 4x this much water / day without putting it back for over two decades now.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ons-bottling-water-it-pays-nearly-nothing-for
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/feat...ons-bottling-water-it-pays-nearly-nothing-for
Lizard Testes
Gawd
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It gets put back eventually via urine.
Chupachup
Limp Gawd
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I suppose if it were Wisconsin simply using Wisconsin's own watershed I'd have little problem with them potentially fucking their own state up.
When they decide to use a resource that seven states and two countries share, and dump directly back into the resource without adequately explaining the water treatment process and safety procedures that will be put in place, I start to become a bit concerned.
The dioxins, mercury and lead used by Dow, Dow Chemical and auto manufacturers in Michigan over the course the last century are still an ever present threat to the health and welfare of every living thing in the southern half of the lower peninsula (and every one downstream) and will be for thousands of years.
Always better to address the problem as best you can before it becomes a problem that can't be managed!
Not into the water sheds it's being removed from
When they decide to use a resource that seven states and two countries share, and dump directly back into the resource without adequately explaining the water treatment process and safety procedures that will be put in place, I start to become a bit concerned.
The dioxins, mercury and lead used by Dow, Dow Chemical and auto manufacturers in Michigan over the course the last century are still an ever present threat to the health and welfare of every living thing in the southern half of the lower peninsula (and every one downstream) and will be for thousands of years.
Always better to address the problem as best you can before it becomes a problem that can't be managed!
Not into the water sheds it's being removed from
Golly! If only we had to worry about how big the bucket was and nothing else!
LOL, dude really?
Lake michigan has an estimated 1,000,000,000,000,000 gallons of water. They are talking about evaporating 4,500,000
0.0000000045 % per day.
derp!
IcePickFreak
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The title of thread might be a little overboard, but so are the comments a lot of times (intentionally). Nobody is arguing the robots are really going to kill us in any of those numerous threads.
It's not the water they're going to take out, it's the nearly 5mil gpd they'll put back in. With that amount, daily, even trace amounts of some stuff really adds up over time and can destroy what eco system is left in the water. Go throw a penny in a public 20,000 gallon coral reef aquarium and follow the death toll on corals they experience from that little bit of copper. Obviously this is freshwater, but when they're changing laws and aren't even sure of the effects yet they're going full steam ahead on construction, that's a problem. Add in the fact that the plant itself will be in the middle of farmland and wetlands, and it could turn into a real big problem.
Without getting too political, Scott Walker doesn't have the best track record. State funds are already being redirected at this project for roads. Foxconn wants lanes added to the Interstate just for them, paid for by us. In the end, I'll bet money that this will employ mostly Cook County residents from Illinois. Illinois residents working in Wisconsin do not pay Wisconsin income taxes. If/when something happens, we'll be given the bill for that as well and left with the mess.
It's not the water they're going to take out, it's the nearly 5mil gpd they'll put back in. With that amount, daily, even trace amounts of some stuff really adds up over time and can destroy what eco system is left in the water. Go throw a penny in a public 20,000 gallon coral reef aquarium and follow the death toll on corals they experience from that little bit of copper. Obviously this is freshwater, but when they're changing laws and aren't even sure of the effects yet they're going full steam ahead on construction, that's a problem. Add in the fact that the plant itself will be in the middle of farmland and wetlands, and it could turn into a real big problem.
Without getting too political, Scott Walker doesn't have the best track record. State funds are already being redirected at this project for roads. Foxconn wants lanes added to the Interstate just for them, paid for by us. In the end, I'll bet money that this will employ mostly Cook County residents from Illinois. Illinois residents working in Wisconsin do not pay Wisconsin income taxes. If/when something happens, we'll be given the bill for that as well and left with the mess.
That's not a news article, it's pure propaganda. Lots of ifs and maybes and just plain fear mongering.
NIMBY
You all want low prices but complain about "big business" etc. If you buy your gear from someone who manufactures in China then they are doing this and more to keep your price low.
If someone opens a store and charges 20% more in order to save the trees and pay their employees more you all would flock to amazon to get the lower price. Then bitch how that "other" place just price gouges.
It is comical at times.
You all want low prices but complain about "big business" etc. If you buy your gear from someone who manufactures in China then they are doing this and more to keep your price low.
If someone opens a store and charges 20% more in order to save the trees and pay their employees more you all would flock to amazon to get the lower price. Then bitch how that "other" place just price gouges.
It is comical at times.
Trepidati0n
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If they pull water from the great lakes, it must go back to the great lakes. This is legally binding. A lot of FUD in this article. See people love to lap it up.
IcePickFreak
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I must have missed when prices suddenly dropped 20% when products on the store shelves started coming from China. Coincidentally, CEO pay starting going up drastically right around the time this happened to the crazy levels we're at today. Damn middle class did it again. If they'd just stop buying shit the economy would be great.
P.S. Next time your at my house rummaging through my stuff to see what I own, could you run the mower across the grass?
sfsuphysics
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No, it's not the point. The point was that this is being called a "new precedent" which I showed that it most certainly isn't. The use of public water for commercial purposes predates industrialization in this country. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just wondering why now everyone is getting their panties in a twist over it.
sfsuphysics
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And then they just build huge condo complexes on said greenspace to cram more people into places where it's already full.
A lot of FUD.
Heres a fact. Illinois via Chicago dumps/dumped how many billions of gallons of raw sewage into the Chicago river? Heck you were polluting so badly, you reversed the flow of the river so the shit would float away from the beach.
Probably because it's happening with Trump in power.
IcePickFreak
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Yeah, the build site and surrounding area is really congested. I think I mentioned this was farmlands & wetlands in just about every post I've made in the thread.
A lot of FUD, then you back it up with something totally unrelated to the topic or even Wisconsin.
Please tell me more. I've lived <30 miles from the build site (in Wisconsin, not Illinois, since you seem confused) my entire life and have been working in manufacturing in the area since I started working as a teen a couple decades ago so I'm not really familiar with any of the particulars of the actual thread topic.
I'm not even adverse to the idea, but I am with the way it's being implemented.
D
Deleted member 88301
Guest
Nobody is going to drain any lakes. The problem is the use of the water. The idiot Governor of Wisconsin, by letting Foxconn circumvent laws and agreements, is setting precedent for future bids to grab water.
It is not science fiction: future wars will be about water.
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/30/6069...-against-planned-foxconn-factory-in-wisconsin
Yes, it's from npr. So a lot of you will disregard it as leftist propaganda.
Whatever. Enjoy the next call-in to Fox And Friends from President Trump.
It is not science fiction: future wars will be about water.
https://www.npr.org/2018/04/30/6069...-against-planned-foxconn-factory-in-wisconsin
Yes, it's from npr. So a lot of you will disregard it as leftist propaganda.
Whatever. Enjoy the next call-in to Fox And Friends from President Trump.
For those of you that don't mind reading a little; WisContext has some interesting articles pertaining to this subject.
Slightly off topic. But if you are interested in a little more history of the Great Lakes Dan Egan's book The Death and Life of the Great Lakes is worth checking out.
Slightly off topic. But if you are interested in a little more history of the Great Lakes Dan Egan's book The Death and Life of the Great Lakes is worth checking out.
EchtoGammut
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Well, they would drain the lake in 2,348,336 years, however that really isn't the point. Moving 2,555,000,000 gallons per year has a lot of serious ecologic effects reaching far beyond just removing the water. Putting that all aside, like all Foxconn factory plans in the US, Foxconn is just going to take the free money and run. The have promised many places they would build factories and have received huge "favors" from local counties and states. Yet, in every case they pack up and leave generally fucking everyone over. How any state could sign a new deal with them, illustrates how dumb politicians are.
I find this kind of fascinating. From the ndrc article:
"Foxconn has yet to disclose what toxins might be released as it manufactures screens for phones and TVs. Most of the company’s current plants are spread across China, where disclosure of potential contaminants is not required."
"Near Foxconn manufacturing plants in China, rivers are very polluted, says Peter Adriaens, professor of environmental engineering at the University of Michigan. Although we can’t be sure that the LCD facilities are the culprit, the correlation is strong, he says."
"But the plant could present new challenges to treatment. No other glass screen manufacturing plants exist in the United States, and because the process uses solvents and plasticizers not seen in other U.S. industries, the substances in the wastewater may not be regulated yet."
"The company applied for its first air emissions permit in March, listing particulate matter, nitrous oxides, sulfur dioxide, and VOCs as some of the pollutants the plant would release into the atmosphere. Wisconsin’s Department of Natural Resources held a public meeting at the beginning of this month on the permit application (the public comment period ended in mid-April). But the state has already let the facility bypass environmental review"
So, we have a company that
1. Doesn't disclose what contaminants it releases in China because it doesn't have to (I'm sure they have nothing to hide since China is so clean).
2. Is very likely contributing to pollution of the rivers in China according to an environmental engineering expert (what does he know about pollution anyway?)
3. They are are using chemicals not used in other US industries and thus may not be even regulated.
4. They are releasing pollutants into the air.
5. The state has let them bypass environmental review (uh, why?)
compound this with head of EPA Scott Pruitt and governor Scott Walker whom I'm sure would NEVER allow toxic waste to contaminate the water, even if there was a lot of money involved.
So it looks like the two basic camps are this,
THE LEFT:
If something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Everything ABOUT this suggests that this deal is corrupt, rushed, and will result in increased water contamination (especially since they are already going to be polluting the air?). Therefore, this deal should be held to absolute maximum scrutiny, nothing rushed, full transparency, and approved by a panel of environmental impact experts, so we don't give everybody in the vicinity cancer over the next few decades
THE RIGHT:
Leftists will cry about anything. Since we don't know what pollutants will be released since that information is secret (never mind why), everybody should stop crying about another new plant going up. If we find, down the road, that they are poisoning the water with heavy metals or chemicals that aren't even used in the USA, THEN we can talk about possible consequences to these actions. Environmentalists need to have a cause to make themselves feel important and this is no exception. There is no reason to think this isn't completely safe. Innocent until proven guilty.
Did I get it about it right?
"Foxconn has yet to disclose what toxins might be released as it manufactures screens for phones and TVs. Most of the company’s current plants are spread across China, where disclosure of potential contaminants is not required."
"Near Foxconn manufacturing plants in China, rivers are very polluted, says Peter Adriaens, professor of environmental engineering at the University of Michigan. Although we can’t be sure that the LCD facilities are the culprit, the correlation is strong, he says."
"But the plant could present new challenges to treatment. No other glass screen manufacturing plants exist in the United States, and because the process uses solvents and plasticizers not seen in other U.S. industries, the substances in the wastewater may not be regulated yet."
"The company applied for its first air emissions permit in March, listing particulate matter, nitrous oxides, sulfur dioxide, and VOCs as some of the pollutants the plant would release into the atmosphere. Wisconsin’s Department of Natural Resources held a public meeting at the beginning of this month on the permit application (the public comment period ended in mid-April). But the state has already let the facility bypass environmental review"
So, we have a company that
1. Doesn't disclose what contaminants it releases in China because it doesn't have to (I'm sure they have nothing to hide since China is so clean).
2. Is very likely contributing to pollution of the rivers in China according to an environmental engineering expert (what does he know about pollution anyway?)
3. They are are using chemicals not used in other US industries and thus may not be even regulated.
4. They are releasing pollutants into the air.
5. The state has let them bypass environmental review (uh, why?)
compound this with head of EPA Scott Pruitt and governor Scott Walker whom I'm sure would NEVER allow toxic waste to contaminate the water, even if there was a lot of money involved.
So it looks like the two basic camps are this,
THE LEFT:
If something looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. Everything ABOUT this suggests that this deal is corrupt, rushed, and will result in increased water contamination (especially since they are already going to be polluting the air?). Therefore, this deal should be held to absolute maximum scrutiny, nothing rushed, full transparency, and approved by a panel of environmental impact experts, so we don't give everybody in the vicinity cancer over the next few decades
THE RIGHT:
Leftists will cry about anything. Since we don't know what pollutants will be released since that information is secret (never mind why), everybody should stop crying about another new plant going up. If we find, down the road, that they are poisoning the water with heavy metals or chemicals that aren't even used in the USA, THEN we can talk about possible consequences to these actions. Environmentalists need to have a cause to make themselves feel important and this is no exception. There is no reason to think this isn't completely safe. Innocent until proven guilty.
Did I get it about it right?
FearTheCow
Supreme [H]ardness
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Hey, it's not our fault the left wants less jobs so they can pitch more welfare at people for votes.
Hey, those three robot repairpeople will make a ton of money!
Yeah, the build site and surrounding area is really congested. I think I mentioned this was farmlands & wetlands in just about every post I've made in the thread.
View attachment 70381
A lot of FUD, then you back it up with something totally unrelated to the topic or even Wisconsin.
Please tell me more. I've lived <30 miles from the build site (in Wisconsin, not Illinois, since you seem confused) my entire life and have been working in manufacturing in the area since I started working as a teen a couple decades ago so I'm not really familiar with any of the particulars of the actual thread topic.
I'm not even adverse to the idea, but I am with the way it's being implemented.
Your post I quoted, was nothing but fud. Do I need to spell out what that means?
Yeah, the build site and surrounding area is really congested. I think I mentioned this was farmlands & wetlands in just about every post I've made in the thread.
View attachment 70381
A lot of FUD, then you back it up with something totally unrelated to the topic or even Wisconsin.
Please tell me more. I've lived <30 miles from the build site (in Wisconsin, not Illinois, since you seem confused) my entire life and have been working in manufacturing in the area since I started working as a teen a couple decades ago so I'm not really familiar with any of the particulars of the actual thread topic.
I'm not even adverse to the idea, but I am with the way it's being implemented.
what you seem to be missing is that we are talking about what might be dumped into Lake Michigan and yet today in a real and not in a might happen in the future way Chicago is a dumping ground for raw sewage into the water. So if we are going to worry about one group dumping something we need to look at all groups here.
The fresh water is used to dilute the toxic waste so they can dump it back into the lake. If it is diluted enough they are allowed to dump many tons of toxic chemicals.
lostin3d
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Lots of if's and maybe's. That's the point. The powers approving this haven't stated full facts other than jobs and how they've basically gone as close to the legal line without crossing(and some states are questioning that). The sheer lack of true environmental data in relation to this kind of plant and the specs of the water being 'sent' back should be alarming. Are thousands of jobs today worth the price their kids or grandchildren will be dealing with tomorrow? If they can successfully prove the potential pollutants won't be an issue then by all means move forward. As is it looks more like pass it now and figure it out later. There's ethical questions on all sides of this. Those for and against need real facts not maybes. Those 'for' should spout more than jobs created and how they've narrowly avoided legal restraints.
IcePickFreak
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Umm yeah exactly, hence why I have a problem with them bypassing regulations and permits in this case among the many other issues. That doesn't seem to be what "we" are talking about at all though, that seems to be "Well it's happens all over so who cares this time." - so the exact opposite.
Lol, great discussion as usual.
I don't know anything about water quality either, I just run all my drains & sewage into these and it just seems to work.
But that information should be readily available from South Korea, Taiwan and Japan which all have significant LCD manufacturing.
Correlation isn't causation, especially given that many industries and population centers are located by Chinese rivers. And most of Foxconn's plants in China have nothing to do with LCD screen manufacture.
And from what has been reported so far, Foxconn is using Sharp's Sakai plant as the model for Wisconsin, so China is irrelevant as the plant will be based primarily on Japanese know-how, design and standards.
http://fox6now.com/2018/02/05/exclu...hows-you-the-model-for-the-wisconsin-project/
Master_shake_
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As someone who lives near lake Huron, ick.
Master_shake_
Fully [H]
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So you're saying I should hoard cheap water now.
Thanks for the heads up.
I'll have so much water they gonna call me hydro
EchtoGammut
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Haven't you watched the documentary Mad Max? Australia has apparently been carrying out behavioral studies where they reduce the water available, while simultaneously reducing the cost of gas.
NoOther
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less than 1% increase in the current withdrawals from the lake and its a "HUGE" impact? Seriously?
FearTheCow
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That's not how it works, that's not how it works at all.