Former Engineer Says Uber Is a Nightmare of Sexism

prime2515102

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Man, fuck off with this bullshit. Women are goin' around with their "strong and independent" mantra, yet, they whine like 6-year-olds and run to "daddy" (management, lawyers) every time they get offended. Grow up and handle your own issues like an adult. Better yet, learn some emotional control (become an adult).

This reminds me of when I got "sexually harassed" by two different women at a job I had. One of them sat there for about 15 minutes telling me the story of how her doctor prescribed a large dildo to restore her birth canal size after cancer treatment (?). The second one ended with her actually bringing me a computer (a c64) as an excuse to give me a ride home (I don't drive, was too much to take on the bus) in hopes I would invite her in so she could cheat on her husband.

And those two incidences were just the last straw, there was about three months of that crap leading up to it.

Did I complain? No, I handled it myself. I could have pretty much owned that company (they were a rather small operation) if I would have wanted to be a whiney bitch about it and sue them.

Short of physical contact, fuck off with your whining. If it was physical contact, calling the police would have been the first step, not going to someone internal who may or may not be buddies with the offender, and ESPECIALLY if you work for Uber.

These people (men and women) that "sexually harass" have the exact same problem - a lack of emotional control (i.e. maturity). It's like dealing with two little kids bickering back and fourth.
 

lcpiper

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If this is all fabricated by her, she's totally hosed.
Her blog names no names and I am not certain that a company can sue for defamation.

It might not go so well come hiring time with the next company though.
 

Cali3350

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If your job is to bring rocks up a hill, and Joe can carry ten 80 pound rocks an hour, and Jane can only carry two 20 pound rocks an hour, Joe is "best". Its really not that difficult. How does "diversity" improve someone's ability to do their job? Pro-tip: It doesn't. The word "diversity" just means "not white-male", and is used as an excuse to implement racist and sexist policies that otherwise couldn't be justified.
Your right. For pure menial labor its that simple.

If im developing a piece of software, that will be used by people all over the world, where I want many cultures to break into it, how is one group of people (be them European, Indian, American, or Chinese) going to properly build something to break into each of those unique markets?

More generically, say I'm building a Microsoft Word competitor for the US. Why would I want people with the same background all making all of the decisions? All they will do is re-inforce their ideas and methods, which are likely very similar. More 'cultures' and sexes = more ideas = more potential to make something better. Im not going to hire someone 'bad', but if I could hire someone who a vastly different background with a good (to be clear, very good) skillset, why wouldn't I?

I hate to use a term as overused as echo-chamber, but thats what can happen if you only hire graduates from MIT. And its just a natural function of human behavior, the same is true all over the world.
 

Ducman69

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Your right. For pure menial labor its that simple.

If im developing a piece of software, that will be used by people all over the world, where I want many cultures to break into it, how is one group of people (be them European, Indian, American, or Chinese) going to properly build something to break into each of those unique markets?
Cool.

So I'm going to be marketing my product primarily in Western first world nations, which are overwhelmingly white. Thus, I will tell black, asian, and indian applicants that they aren't best suited to write software for me, because only a white person can properly build something for that market.

Sounds pretty racist and discriminatory to assign them skillsets based inherently on their race, right? After all, if an English-only Chinese heritage guy from California is better than a fluent mandarin white guy that lived for eight years in Shanghai is somehow inherently better suited to writing software for a Chinese audience, then why not apply that same logic for white markets that white people are inherently better qualified.

And before you say "well, we're talking about cultural backgrounds". You can have a latina, east-asian girl, hispanic male, and black male that all grew up in the same neighborhood in El Paso and went to highschool together, and declare that a "diversity jackpot", while you could have a white guy from Melbourne Australia with a farming background, a white flamboyantly gay German guy from Berlin with engineering background, a white guy from Singapore, and a white guy from French-Canada, and get a lawsuit for lack of diversity.

All these mental gymnastics to justify discriminating against someone because of their race and gender looks far less impressive from a distance, as they flail around and finish with a flourish, all proud of themselves.
 

Cali3350

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Cool.

So I'm going to be marketing my product primarily in Western first world nations, which are overwhelmingly white. Thus, I will tell black, asian, and indian applicants that they aren't best suited to write software for me, because only a white person can properly build something for that market.

Sounds pretty racist and discriminatory right to assign them skillsets based inherently on their race, right?

And before you say "well, we're talking about cultural backgrounds". You can have a latina, east-asian girl, hispanic male, and black male that all grew up in the same neighborhood in El Paso and went to highschool together, and declare that a "diversity jackpot", while you could have a white guy from Melbourne Australia with a farming background, a white flamboyantly gay German guy from Berlin with engineering background, a white guy from Singapore, and a white guy from French-Canada, and get a lawsuit for lack of diversity.

All these mental gymnastics to justify discriminating against someone because of their race and gender looks far less impressive from a distance, as they flail around and finish with a flourish, all proud of themselves.
No, thats overly simplistic. Your only looking at the race area, which isnt really important at all. Its background that matters. I could care less if the applicant is white or black. I only care about their background.

"And before you say "well, we're talking about cultural backgrounds". You can have a latina, east-asian girl, hispanic male, and black male that all grew up in the same neighborhood in El Paso and went to highschool together, and declare that a "diversity jackpot", while you could have a white guy from Melbourne Australia with a farming background, a white flamboyantly gay German guy from Berlin with engineering background, a white guy from Singapore, and a white guy from French-Canada, and get a lawsuit for lack of diversity."

I think we are in agreement here. I would want the second group, without question.
 

Crimson

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"The Verge" reeks of a tabloid site. I would not take anything they say for value. Plus, they have tons of clickbait shit.
 

lcpiper

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"The Verge" reeks of a tabloid site. I would not take anything they say for value. Plus, they have tons of clickbait shit.
Maybe, but their target audience does seem to be the tech world. I do think they use click-baity techniques to bring in the lookers, perhaps hoping to snare some dedicated customers. It is certainly not like other more tech-business type sites.

Of course I did out at least one complete falsehood in this article. I should check, was it originally a verge article or did the verge pull it in from someone else?

No, looks like the Verge is the source although it looks like the writer sourced the woman's blog solely, always risky.
 

Ducman69

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No, thats overly simplistic. Your only looking at the race area, which isnt really important at all. Its background that matters. I could care less if the applicant is white or black. I only care about their background.
That's totally fair, but not how "diversity" in the modern workplace works. All the articles and stuff you read are generally "XYZ company has too many white males", and all the lawyers look at.
 

Dekoth-E-

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She can come here. We are a multi national multi US State engineering company the seeks our minorities and women for engineering and software positions. We even have programs designed to encourage them to try for higher positions. And every year, every one of us has to complete Sexual Harassment training which I fully support. There is zero tolerance for that BS here.

I fully support having Zero tolerance for it as well, but I don't need to sit through training every single year to relearn how not to be a douchebag. That is just a waste of my time and company resources.
 

magoo

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Wow idiot comments like this that make my cringe at society. Did you even read her blog post? It went way beyond getting swag. You miss the entire point she shouldn't have to get a transfer or resign because of a sick manager that cant keep his shit together he should have been fired plain and simple but lets justify sexism with victim blaming.
I'm not trolling. I don't feel like an idiot, at least today.
You only have one side of a story, and I'm not insinuating that her boss is/is not a good person, nor should anyone be subject to bullying, proposition, or the like.
Am I synical, yes. I don't trust anyone these days who just throws out accusation without substance.

These are very difficult things to prove.

I work with women every day and have nothing but utmost respect for ANYONE who works hard and does a good job, regardless of their position or gender.

There's just no substance to this accusation at the moment.
 

lilbabycat

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I smell a huge amount of embellishment on her part (ie: lies), and a realization the hard way that the corporate world isn't a college campus.

How else exactly am I supposed to approach this statement:
Her account of her time at the company also includes efforts by her managers to undermine her sense of reality and accomplishment. She says glowing performance reviews were later altered to justify holding her back from promotion, and keep her from transferring to other parts of the organization.
I'm reading this as: She wrote in her personal performance review that she was doing an amazing job despite (insert tons of excuses), but then when the actual review time came her managers said "No, you're doing terrible, get with the program, nothing you wrote is accurate, everyone else handles the situation here fine"

And maybe the "proposition for sex" was nothing of the sort and the guy was doing some extremely light flirting which she immediately took as mild-rape?

Her own HR department tried to squash her protest for decent treatment, allegedly suggesting she was the “common theme” in her complaints, and that “it was unprofessional to report things via email to HR.”
Maybe, just maybe, the HR department was right?

All I know for sure is that her account isn't the whole truth.

More 'cultures' and sexes = more ideas = more potential to make something better. Im not going to hire someone 'bad', but if I could hire someone who a vastly different background with a good (to be clear, very good) skillset, why wouldn't I?

I hate to use a term as overused as echo-chamber, but thats what can happen if you only hire graduates from MIT. And its just a natural function of human behavior, the same is true all over the world.
"More cultures" doesn't inherently mean good ideas nor the potential for "better".
There are only two sexes, one is better at some tasks / ways of thinking than the other and vice versa.
What is inherently "good" about a mixing pot of cultures/backgrounds? In reality it opens multiple avenues for conflict in the workplace.

Sometimes it takes an entire team of like minded people bouncing off each other to form one good idea. Sometimes diversity gets you the Metro UI.
 
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Shotglass01

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Proving her wrong is still a case of "He said, She said", and in today's climate, "She said" has far more weight than "He said". The presumption of innocence really only applies to non-males these days, and the burden of proof is likewise skewed against the accused.

All this woman has to do is stick with her story (true or not) and no matter what they throw at her, what evidence they find to disprove her, it'll all just be seen as "Patriarchal oppression" to her support base, with the bonus that she becomes a still-living martyr.

If she's lying, she still profits from this. If she's telling the truth, she still profits from this. So the smart money for Uber would be on backing her play and to make sure she's not found to be lying.
I'm not so sure of this. Companies can't be slandered either, and plenty have fought back successfully. They may still take a hit, but it could be better than rolling over to someone that lied about the whole thing (if that is indeed what happened.)

Her blog names no names and I am not certain that a company can sue for defamation.

It might not go so well come hiring time with the next company though.
But I'm also pretty sure you can't post things like that about a company if they're not truthful at all. She didn't name anyone, but she did name Uber. Might have been different if she had never mentioned the company.
 

Tawnos

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If they'd learn to be more aggressive, then they'd get ahead. It's not about their sex. It's about their lack of aggressiveness. I have the same issue.
You also insert double-spaces after each sentence, but I'll try not to hold that against you ;).

What do you think about the various research indicating opposite outcomes for women and men who act "aggressively"? That is, guys tend to be seen as possessing leadership traits, but gals are considered bossy, bitchy, or similar negative things.
 

lilbabycat

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You also insert double-spaces after each sentence, but I'll try not to hold that against you ;).

What do you think about the various research indicating opposite outcomes for women and men who act "aggressively"? That is, guys tend to be seen as possessing leadership traits, but gals are considered bossy, bitchy, or similar negative things.
I'd ask you to link "various research". Also, I'd assume you're "bitchy" for mentioning the double-space thing, on a forum, on the internet. And seeing as how you're an SDE @ MS, I wonder if this place hits home a little too often...seeing as how we shit on all the terrible moves MS has done with their OS lately?
 
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lcpiper

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I'm not so sure of this. Companies can't be slandered either, and plenty have fought back successfully. They may still take a hit, but it could be better than rolling over to someone that lied about the whole thing (if that is indeed what happened.)

But I'm also pretty sure you can't post things like that about a company if they're not truthful at all. She didn't name anyone, but she did name Uber. Might have been different if she had never mentioned the company.
That would come down to the nature of the "claims", are they factual or are they opinion?

I try now and then to play the lawyer, but when I do I get it wrong and then real lawyers show up and slap me :notworthy:

But, I think there is at least a question along these lines that would have to be satisfied legally. I'm simply not competent to say how.
 

Jagger100

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I fully support having Zero tolerance for it as well, but I don't need to sit through training every single year to relearn how not to be a douchebag. That is just a waste of my time and company resources.
But it employs some gender studies people and gives money to outside consultants who would otherwise have to get real world jobs.
 
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Why would you actively seek them out? How about actively seek out the best talent, regardless of race, creed, or p/v equipment/preferences.
Well that is a very good question with a very good answer. Studies have shown those with different backgrounds approach the same problem in different ways. Therefore there is more likely to be more than one solution available option with a diversity of background. But to get hired you do have to have the skills. Make no doubt on that fact. You have to match your peers being interviewed.


Now if you ask me if I believe in affirmative action...that might be a different answer.
 

lcpiper

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But it employs some gender studies people and gives money to outside consultants who would otherwise have to get real world jobs.

And .... when someone does file a law suite, the company says that their policies and compliance training are all industry standard and that there is no evidence that the Company is at fault and the issue is the sole responsibility of the fool who was just fired and is about to get trashed in court.
 

lcpiper

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Well that is a very good question with a very good answer. Studies have shown those with different backgrounds approach the same problem in different ways. Therefore there is more likely to be more than one solution available option with a diversity of background. But to get hired you do have to have the skills. Make no doubt on that fact. You have to match your peers being interviewed.


Now if you ask me if I believe in affirmative action...that might be a different answer.
But not all companies are in the "problem solving" business. Sometimes they just need a large number of doers and diversity works against their needs, say like in an IT call center that services a large customer base in a foreign country.

It was so refreshing to hear a Irish Lases' voice on the phone when I expected something else.
 

hakstarr

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OK, I have to get something here straightened out, She didn't stay in the position under the manager who kept asking her for sex. She moved to a different team at management's and HR's suggestion. Now the way they handeled it was shitty if you take her word on all this. But she didn't stay under that manager and in fact, she moved on to a position where as she put it, "she had great autonomy". Of course that means she had a new manager and this one was bad for other reasons, again, if you accept her account.

So no one made her stay under that manager and in fact, the reporter from the linked article fucked this up. You have to go read her blog for yourself to get it right. Here is what the woman said on her blog following her report to HR on the man's improper email. And it was a single instance not that a person can't be fired for one really bad instance, but it wasn't repeated like some here are thinking.

From her blog on the subject;

https://www.susanjfowler.com/blog/2017/2/19/reflecting-on-one-very-strange-year-at-uber

What this article claims;


Now I can only speak for myself, but the woman's blog suggests to me that she was being pressured to switch teams telling her that if she stayed under this manager she would have to accept a negative performance review if he gave her one. But the linked article differs and it fact, it makes it sound like they told her she would have to accept a negative performance interview if she switches teams. Someone has something fucking backwards here.

Do not take my pointing this out as being supportive of Uber, critical of this woman, or accepting her blog at face value.

If you read her blog I think you'll get the idea that it wasn't so much the sexual harassment that got to her but the way she was pigeonholed into a position that offered no opportunities for her to advance.

IF her account is true then it was not his first offense if you read the blog post lots of women filed a complaint and nothing was done and if what she is saying is true they tried to sweep it under the rug. So it was a repeated offense just not with her and if she stayed under him who knows what he might have said or done and regardless if it was not repeated or not I think its unfair to put a women in an uncomfortable position on her first days on the job by asking for sex calling it a mistake is stupid he knew what he was doing hes a grown man ffs and that kind of behavior has a pattern. If she was a man and the male manager asked him for sex i bet you would not be on here saying well it was only that one time.
 
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If her claims are false, she could very well be in a lot of trouble. But the fact is she has screen captured evidence of such harassment is a pretty brave statement to make without something physical to back it up. Either way it's up to the lawyers to settle it.
 
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But not all companies are in the "problem solving" business. Sometimes they just need a large number of doers and diversity works against their needs, say like in an IT call center that services a large customer base in a foreign country.

It was so refreshing to hear a Irish Lases' voice on the phone when I expected something else.
Very true. But there are legitimate reasons for having a diverse background for such engineering positions at a mega company.
 

lcpiper

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IF her account is true then it was not his first offense if you read the blog post lots of women filed a complaint and nothing was done and if what she is saying is true they tried to sweep it under the rug. So it was a repeated offense just not with her and if she stayed under him who knows what he might have said or done and regardless if it was not repeated or not I think its unfair to put a women in an uncomfortable position on her first days on the job by asking for sex calling it a mistake is stupid he knew what he was doing hes a grown man ffs and that kind of behavior has a pattern. If she was a man and the male manager asked him for sex i bet you would not be on here saying well it was only that one time.
I said the same "if" and I never tried to say the guy doesn't deserve firing.

What I was saying is that the author, of this linked article on the Verge, incorrectly reported information from the woman's blog, and that she was not coerced into remaining under this man's supervision and instead was recommended to move on to something else.

I'll admit, by the time I had finished typing up my post I had realized that it wasn't actually you repeating these inaccuracies and frankly, I was too lazy to change it and go looking for a more fitting donkey to pin the tail on. I'll apologize for making my post look like you were "the target", you were not. It was just that I could no longer continue reading comments based on falsehoods and had to try and set these two issues straight.

If you re-read my post, I think you'll get it, I wasn't actually calling you out for your comments.

Since I didn't actually disagree directly against any comments in your post, I hope you will accept the apology, no harm, no foul.
 

lilbabycat

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If her claims are false, she could very well be in a lot of trouble. But the fact is she has screen captured evidence of such harassment is a pretty brave statement to make without something physical to back it up. Either way it's up to the lawyers to settle it.
You know how I know she doesn't have proof? She went to her blog before she went to her lawyer, who (if they weren't drunk or high) would tell her not to write a blog post about it.
 
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You know how I know she doesn't have proof? She went to her blog before she went to her lawyer, who (if they weren't drunk or high) would tell her not to write a blog post about it.
Wow I didn't know you were a lawyer.
 

amddragonpc

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LOL. Manager said he was in an "open relationship" (blah blah blah). Must be standard operating procedure to use that line. A friend of mine was approached the same way by a "manager" at the company we used to work for. Same line, "open relationship". She asked him, "Are you open to go fucking yourself?".
 

Kalabalana

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If this were a guy, we'd all laugh, since this is fairly normal, the world's a shitty place.

Sucks that we all don't get preferential treatment.
 
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Tawnos

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I'd ask you to link "various research". Also, I'd assume you're "bitchy" for mentioning the double-space thing, on a forum, on the internet. And seeing as how you're an SDE @ MS, I wonder if this place hits home a little too often...seeing as how we shit on all the terrible moves MS has done with their OS lately?
You seem angry, do you think it's because of using double spaces? ;)

Links to the research follows, but I was asking the question of dgingeri's opinion because he made a claim that "it's about [women's] lack of aggressiveness". The claim may be true for him, but I was interested in seeing if he'd considered the way that such aggressiveness is perceived and whether the advice is universally applicably. It seems that it may be misplaced advice based on reflection of personal experience/comments thereon, hence my question. As promised, though you may have to click through/search to find the actual research paper:

https://www.cfa.harvard.edu/cfawis/bowles.pdf
http://guwli.georgetown.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JPSP_NegotiatingGenderRoles.pdf
http://www.psychologicalscience.org...kplace-who-wins-praise-for-assertiveness.html
http://www.cio.com/article/3155947/...quality-perceptions-are-shaped-by-gender.html
http://hbswk.hbs.edu/item/when-gender-changes-the-negotiation


As for the fact I work at Microsoft - let's not turn another thread devolve into mindless shitposting about Windows, especially when it's completely unrelated to the topic at hand.
 

Dekoth-E-

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But it employs some gender studies people and gives money to outside consultants who would otherwise have to get real world jobs.
This seems accurate. Years in Corporate America has taught me at least 50% of the people in HR/PR/Marketing don't need to exist.
 

lilbabycat

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From first research paper: One limitation of our experimental design was theartificiality of the negotiation and no-negotiation scripts. If the candidates had been able to choose their own words, it is possible that men and women wouldhave presented themselves diferently (Barron, 2003).

This is the problem with studies like this. They work in a narrow, tiny vacuum, that the researcher can make any conclusion they want about it, and I dare say purposely create their experiments to get said results.

And shitposting about Windows is always on topic. I'm 100% serious that "diversity" is part of what created the disaster that is the Metro UI and further idiotic decisions at MS since. That and sweet, sweet datamining money.

Wow I didn't know you were a lawyer.
Yes because it takes a law degree to know that you shouldn't air your dirty laundry on a blog when you have the intention of suing the company? I think perhaps the woman thought she her story could "go viral" and she'd get a payday. If I were a manager she'd be immediately blacklisted from my company simply for the unprofessional manner she's taking her situation.

Dear HR @ Uber, Bob said "fork" to me again, this is the last straw! @StopSexism

He's really good at playing video games. Isn't that the same thing?
Damn right it is! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Wright:_Ace_Attorney
 
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HoffY

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seeks our minorities and women for engineering and software positions. We even have programs designed to encourage them to try for higher positions. And every year, every one of us has to complete Sexual Harassment training which I fully support.
In english this translates to "we discriminate against white people and skilled people that are more suited for the job".

You also insert double-spaces after each sentence
When i was taught typing in grade 9 and 10 i as taught to put two spaces after a fullstop and the next sentence. Has the official rules changed?
 

HoffY

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50% of the people in HR/PR/Marketing don't need to exist.
Geeze mate... thats a bit generous don't you think? I"d have went closer to 95%! ;)

I wish I was sexually harassed by chicks more often.
You should have went to the "womens" march recently. Your wish would have come true. (just remember, their words mean different things to the real world words).
 

westrock2000

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I feel sorry for her. Maybe she was harassed, which would probably be illegal. And if the law was upheld, she would probably be vindicated. But they hired Eric Holder.
 

westrock2000

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And every year, every one of us has to complete Sexual Harassment training which I fully support. There is zero tolerance for that BS here.
I have to take these ethics classes every year as well. It reminds me how lucky I am to not have been born beautiful. I thank my parents everyday. I couldn't imagine the quality of life these people have to endure knowing that other people want to be around them simply for the sake of being near them. I would think it's very stressful knowing that people will associate with you or include you in their activities because it makes them look better by virtue of being near you. It has to just be a horrible life. Luckily no one has ever commented on how good I look on any random day at work. Thankfully I have never heard someone uncontrollably say "wow" under their breathe when they come around a corner and see me. I hope more is done to help these beautiful people.
 
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