Ford Mustang Mach E Leak: Mustang goes Electric

GreenLaser

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But that's assuming there won't be new infrastructure, and you know that's coming. Why is it that the holdouts always picture a static universe where nothing changes? I'm not saying things are moving as quickly as they should, but they are moving... and if history is any indication, there's a tipping point approaching where you'll be in the minority if you stick to ICE.
Forget what you think you know for a second. An ICE vehicle pulls into a local station and refuels in minutes and that infrastructure already exists. Now picture the street you live on has all E-Vehicles. Each and every house will need their electric service doubled. Can you even comprehend how much wire will be needed to do this in a larger scale? The power poles? the meters and controllers? Buried in the ground? Then to energize all that wire so when all the Earthies arrive home each day in the heat of the AC summer and plug in their hungry wet dream the lights go dim across the city. stop lying to yourself and everybody else. It is not about cleaner or cheaper or a saving the planet, It is Control.

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Nafensoriel

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That a really 2 strong claim here, that it would be a minor change (specially if you want are not in Brasil and want to start the car in the winter) and that it would augment performance considering a liter of E100 has so much less energy in it than regular gasoline (you loose about a third I think), car fully make for E85 and up are what usually 15% more performance than when using gasoline ? At the cost of much much lower mpg obviously
M100 is 114 octanes before additives. It hands down will give an engine more performance. Its combustion speed, temperature, and pressure also tend to allow for extreme weight cuts to the engine itself resulting in even higher power to weight.

Lithium mining is dirty and yes it's mostly found in areas that are less then ideal, however were just going to need more and more of it which means far more mining and that means more creative ways to mine it in the quantities needed. Also all those mining machines use a ton of diesel fuel to get it all done as well. Will see if they can be restored or if they remain a eyesore, would cost quite a bit to put everything back after mining is finished.

More people you have then they will need to go somewhere, more people then more vehicles needed. Not everyone wants to be packed in like sardines, some like having some land as well.

Alcohol fuels tend to be quite corrosive and hard on the engine, few cars are made for it, Brazil is the biggest user that I know of and it's warm enough. Methanol is also highly toxic and you need huge tanks to actually go anywhere since you require more of it to equal gasoline. Alcohol fuels have been used in racing for years, but even then it shortens the already short life of the racing engine. Ethanol is used but it really hinders more then it helps in cars in the United States and it's hard on emissions equipment and lowers mileage. If I simply wanted more power a nitrous oxide system would be far easier to do. Once again I see some on here have a axe to grind with people that like their high performance gas engines. I will say buy a EV if you want one, but not all of us are looking to get one.
All elements of lithium mining are restorable. The main argument the eco teams make is the typical water usage which can strip-mine an area's capacity and cause issues with irrigation. Basically, everything wrong with lithium mining can be solved with good, and often simple, engineering. Coal? Nickle? Cadmium? Neodymium? Engineering ain't solving heavy metals toxicity.

As to fuels, I will not derail this thread but I will address your points(and some of lukes points).
1]Methanol fuel is not remotely corrosive enough to significantly reduce the lifespan of a modern car. The more efficient the less the corrosion matters. Beyond certain metal and material interactions that are easily, and cheaply, substituted most of the corrosion was due to water content from refining which is no longer anywhere near the concern it was 50 years ago.
2] Methanol fuels are nowhere near "hard" on an engine compared to diesel. Methanol is harder to force combustion and is actually slower when combusting. Slower combustion with equal or greater force is generally more efficient. Due to the lower combustion temperature required for work methanol fuel actually requires far less total mass to contain the combustion as well resulting in significant weight savings to engine design.
3] Ethanol is not methanol. Ethanol is quite terrible both to manufacture and burn. Methanol is actually the single most environmentally friendly liquid fuel you can make in mass.
4] Methanol is nowhere near toxic compared to gasoline. Every single study ever done on this subject is a 100% curb stomp in favor of methanol. Even in byproducts methanol produces CO2 and water.... and that's it. Even to human beings you will 100% prefer methanol exposure to gasoline exposure. Even drinking methanol accidentally is nowhere near as dangerous any more as there are quite effective counter-agents now.
5] If you had a 30L gas tank you would need to upgrade it to 50L to match the range with methanol.... and even with the extra liters it would be CHEAPER.
6] Cold starting difficulties of methanol have been removed. You can start a methanol engine just as easily in -40c as a gasoline engine.
7]Using M100 fuel for ships, trucks, and cars would reduce global CO2 emissions to well below the IPCC recommendation alone, employ every oil worker on the planet with just about zero retraining, be economically positive, and require minimal disruption to peoples lives or usage patterns. Oh, and you could replace almost all of EU/NA gasoline usage in less than 25 years.... without changing gas stations.
8]M100 is pure fuel. Any hybrid fuel is god awful. They are not comparable.

In fact, just to be blunt about it the fact that we still use gasoline is hilariously stupid. It's a dead horse for me that makes me drink. I've gone before governments over this fuel. The reason we don't use it? Oil is here and we already use that and are comfortable with it.
Just like mRNA was ignored when CRISPER was invented in the 80s methanol was ignored because no government on this entire planet is science-based.

If you feel like a fun read lookup Geely auto. They've done amazing work on methanol engines(that can still run gasoline btw) Sad only china really cares.
 

sfsuphysics

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An ICE vehicle pulls into a local station and refuels in minutes and that infrastructure already exists.
At one point the infrastructure for horses already existed, troughs for them to drink out of everywhere throughout town, places to tie them up... yet we some how have cars today

Now picture the street you live on has all E-Vehicles. Each and every house will need their electric service doubled.
Or they charge up at night when demand is next to zero, and it's not a problem?

Just to give a sense of how much need there, lets say you had a Tesla model S with a 95kWh battery which I believe is one of the largest currently existing, you roll in on "fumes" and need a full tank by morning, you start charging at 11pm and need to leave at 7am. 95 kWh/8hrs = 11.875 kW which with a 240volt connection to charge your car would require about 50amps, hardly something that needs an electric service doubled. Now that 95kWh battery gives you roughly a 400 mile range, people aren't going to be driving 400 miles a day, maybe 1/8th that if you have a longer than average commute (but lets just say 1/7th to make things interesting), so either you charge up each night when you get home and only need to pull 1/7th the current (about 7 amps per night), or you wait until you're "empty" in which case you charge up once a night every week again (totally feasible at only 50 amps) but the local load is on average only 1 out of every 7 once a week chargers are doing it, so there's not really a huge load on the grid. Said 95kWh battery will get you about 400 miles, and if you take an average of 12k miles a year, that that's 2850 kWh of power added to your bill per year, which can vary from 2 to 6 months worth of bills depending on how much you use (cheaper electricity states, surprise! tend to use way more electricity than more expensive states). So your electric bill would increase 17 to 50% assuming they aren't horrible like PG&E where you pay progressively more the more you use.

Now granted everyone has a different situation, and this was largely an over simplification of needs. But for a "back of the napkin" set quick calculations it really isn't as doom and gloom as you profess. I don't disagree with things need to change to support it I really don't know how much power plants slow down production at night, or what extra strain there is to run at full power almost always. But this won't be an overnight thing where one morning everyone has electric cars but everything else stayed the same either.

Yes there are issues with densely populated urban areas where living has gone vertical (i.e. no garages to plug into), but lets not pretend that car adoption is also equally high in dense parts of the country
 

Axman

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At one point the infrastructure for horses already existed, troughs for them to drink out of everywhere throughout town, places to tie them up... yet we some how have cars today

It still took 20 years from the adoption of automobiles for a plan to create an interstate roadway system and 50 years to start building it.

Also, in this example, horses were more like electric bikes and scooters. If you wanted to move something serious besides your person and some stuff you used the railways and the steamships. And while we've replaced steam with diesel-electric, we still use trains and ships for all the serious stuff.

I don't see ICE engines being dominant 50 years from now, but I expect them to stick around. Maybe not gasoline, but something burney.
 

1_rick

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Or they charge up at night when demand is next to zero, and it's not a problem?
How many chargers do you think an apartment complex with, say, 400 parking spots should have? What percentage of the owners should get up at all hours of the day and night to move the cars in and out of the chargers, if the answer isn't "one charger at every spot?" Before I moved from Dallas to Galveston, I lived in a 1100+-unit apartment complex comprising 12 buildings and 4 garages, and that was the largest (by a big margin) of three such complexes right in urban north Dallas, not to mention all the other similar buildings nearby, so be sure to multiply your answer by a factor of, I dunno, 10.

How expensive would you think it'd be to run additional power lines to the nearest power plant, along with the extra transformers?

How do you think those costs compare to the costs of putting a few wooden boxes for horses to drink of around town, even accounting for inflation?
 
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Cars do incredibly more work than horses ever could. EVs are doing the same exact work that ICE vehicles already do, hence the hesitation. You're asking everyone to upend everything they currently do......to merely do it a different way.

Also I guarantee power rates will just go up if demand is spiked at night time from everyone charging. You can say goodbye to special night time charging rates.
 

Armenius

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Forget what you think you know for a second. An ICE vehicle pulls into a local station and refuels in minutes and that infrastructure already exists. Now picture the street you live on has all E-Vehicles. Each and every house will need their electric service doubled. Can you even comprehend how much wire will be needed to do this in a larger scale? The power poles? the meters and controllers? Buried in the ground? Then to energize all that wire so when all the Earthies arrive home each day in the heat of the AC summer and plug in their hungry wet dream the lights go dim across the city. stop lying to yourself and everybody else. It is not about cleaner or cheaper or a saving the planet, It is Control.

View attachment 405234
There are some major infrastructure challenges, for sure, but let's not muddy the image of what that means by using a picture of a power pole from a country that uses DC power instead of AC to try and get your point across.
 

sfsuphysics

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How many chargers do you think an apartment complex with, say, 400 parking spots should have?
*sigh* please just stop. My response wasn't the "how to fix all the future problems & issues of e-cars for every single living situation" it was in response to this
Now picture the street you live on has all E-Vehicles. Each and every house will need their electric service doubled.
It isn't about a 1100+ unit apartment complex, it doesn't ask about the cost of running power to every parking space, it simply was a response to the notion that every HOUSE would need their electric service doubled, which I simply stated a way for that to be a false statement.

How do you think those costs compare to the costs of putting a few wooden boxes for horses to drink of around town, even accounting for inflation?
Why are we comparing to the cost of a few wooden boxes for horses? If you're going to stick with the analogy, you need to compare that to cost of creating an entire industry that creates and distributes gasoline everywhere in the country,... and yeah I'd guess that cost was not small at all
 

DWolvin

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Don't let the demand for perfection prevent you from getting better. I loved my Saab and RX-7, but other than <48 hour coast to coast runs my current model 3 (2wd / LR) eats them for breakfast. 5 adult capacity (for short trips), large trunk, 100 'MPG'~ish (I'm a leadfoot, it should be higher). And electrics are still improving rapidly. Hell, going San Diego to Detroit and back last year the only trouble I had was getting stuck in a gas station without charger power overnight. Guess what else you can't do without electricity? Pump gas. Charger came back up a few hours later and it was back to the races.
 

Axman

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Have anyone mention what they going to do for people that do not have a garage and have street parking. Are they going to install chargers on the side walks in front of evey house? So they just run a extension cord from their which is a safety and fire hazard?

Yeah, that's what they're telling us to do. That's my situation. And here's the kicker: if you install a street-level charger, you have to let anyone who parks there use it. You also have to pay for it.

So F that.
 
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Yeah, that's what they're telling us to do. That's my situation. And here's the kicker: if you install a street-level charger, you have to let anyone who parks there use it. You also have to pay for it.

So F that.
So what if you need to use your own charger and someone else is already there? Just "fuck you"?
 

Axman

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So what if you need to use your own charger and someone else is already there? Just "fuck you"?

I mean, if they stay there for more than 3 days, you can file a complaint with the city. They'll get a ticket, woo.
 

Aurelius

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Forget what you think you know for a second. An ICE vehicle pulls into a local station and refuels in minutes and that infrastructure already exists. Now picture the street you live on has all E-Vehicles. Each and every house will need their electric service doubled. Can you even comprehend how much wire will be needed to do this in a larger scale? The power poles? the meters and controllers? Buried in the ground? Then to energize all that wire so when all the Earthies arrive home each day in the heat of the AC summer and plug in their hungry wet dream the lights go dim across the city. stop lying to yourself and everybody else. It is not about cleaner or cheaper or a saving the planet, It is Control.

View attachment 405234
Er... no, just no. Like you've shared before, this is pseudo-scientific fluff meant more to excuse your fears than anything.

Of course the electrical grid will see higher demand when EVs dominate. But people don't all arrive at the same time, or with the same charge levels... and it's pretty clear you don't know how electrical grids work, particularly in terms of wiring and other equipment. The issues will be peak hour capacity and staggering charging times to distribute the work. Those can very much be addressed, and that's not including the democratization of electricity through solar panels and home energy storage. There is a challenge here, but it's not as big as you think and it can be solved.

That and it's always cute when someone rails against a scientifically sound concept as if it were a tool of oppression (see: vaccines), especially when it's so widely embraced that it's just a question of when it wins, not if. Like we're all supposed to take up our pitchforks and torches and set fire to the local Tesla shop in a symbolic act. You can go start your guaranteed-to-fail revolution... those of us who know real science will happily switch to EVs, even if the transition has some problems.
 

GreenLaser

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Society should not need to be pushed coerced or lied to to make E vehicles happen. The reason we lost the horses for machines was they did do everything better faster and cheaper. Unfortunately the same is not true for this change trying to be forced upon US under a "No Time To Think" imminent catastrophe premise. In this thread I have yet to hear how a single fuel station that services thousands of vehicles in 24 hrs can be economically converted to thousands of single charging locations that each take hours to to "refuel". Further expanding on storage and distribution of a single fuel station that can store massive energy in a low tech container buried in the ground that lasts 25 years. Storage of an equivalent amount of E energy would be a battery matrix larger than a fuel station with a full time crew to maintain and monitor it so it doesn't melt down or explode. The economics of such a facility with massive power controllers, converters and computer hardware and software needed to operate safely are incomprehensible vs a low tech storage tank (See the Australian super battery debacle).

Ive been hearing how E was salvation to the planet since grade school. Go online and find the videos from back to the 70's with exact same paranoia from politicians and academe. Now we see piles of windmill blades and old solar panels being buried in landfills. I cannot even fathom what the millions of pounds of used batteries are going to do to the environment when the state outsources recovery to their greasy brother in laws scam. So sleep well with your quiet clean low maintenance 100 mpg wet dream, The CCP is gonna bury you in it using coal fire power plants.
 
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Society should not need to be pushed coerced or lied to to make E vehicles happen. The reason we lost the horses for machines was they did do everything better faster and cheaper. Unfortunately the same is not true for this change trying to be forced upon US under a "No Time To Think" imminent catastrophe premise. In this thread I have yet to hear how a single fuel station that services thousands of vehicles in 24 hrs can be economically converted to thousands of single charging locations that each take hours to to "refuel". Further expanding on storage and distribution of a single fuel station that can store massive energy in a low tech container buried in the ground that lasts 25 years. Storage of an equivalent amount of E energy would be a battery matrix larger than a fuel station with a full time crew to maintain and monitor it so it doesn't melt down or explode. The economics of such a facility with massive power controllers, converters and computer hardware and software needed to operate safely are incomprehensible vs a low tech storage tank (See the Australian super battery debacle).

Ive been hearing how E was salvation to save the planet since grade school. Go online and find the videos from back to the 70's with exact same paranoia from politicians and academe. Now we see piles of windmill blades and old solar panels being buried in landfills. I cannot even fathom what the millions of pounds of used batteries are going to do to the environment when the state outsources it to their greasy brother in laws recovery scam. So sleep well with your quiet clean low maintenance 100 mpg wet dream, The CCP is gonna bury you in it using coal fire power plants.
Nah, didn't you hear? None of us know """reeeeal""" science. Or put in other words, the science is settled. No need to ask anymore questions. God, the level of smugness.
 

serpretetsky

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Your welcome to come to Sonoma anytime and try to race me with a model 3 on the track with my lowly Hellcat. Id give you a grand if you can even stay on the same lap as me. Those electric cars cant handle the power draw needed to actually race for any length of time, so 1 run down a drag strip and then a long cool off and even then the battery wears down quick doing that, while my Hellcat can do it all day, on a road course the Model 3 would be a joke.
Not disagreeing with anything you said. Just wanted to point out there are some cool electric vehicles on pike's peak. I think electric racing future is still coming.

volkswagen IDR (I believe current record holder for all vehicles on pike's peak )


honda electric NSX


palatov / cascadia motion


LS218 motorcycle (held motorcycle record for a little while, but im not certain how impressive this is/isn't,
last I heard Pike's Peak had awkward motorcycle restrictions. I believe class is now banned)
 

GreenLaser

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Put an electric on any track with equivalent chassis ICE it will lose unless you tweak the rules to adjust. The battery weight is the whole ballgame. Part of what drew me to love racing was the idea of a weak human being controlling a visceral beastly fire spitting monster and forcing it to their will. Ive tried to watch E racing and it seems it is missing the beast so MEH.
 

serpretetsky

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Put an electric on any track with equivalent chassis ICE it will lose unless you tweak the rules to adjust. The battery weight is the whole ballgame. Part of what drew me to love racing was the idea of a weak human being controlling a visceral beastly fire spitting monster and forcing it to their will. Ive tried to watch E racing and it seems it is missing the beast so MEH.
Yeah I hear you. I'm usually not interested in watching racing. But every time I've been on a track it's been super fun (electric go kart, motorcycle, autocross, shifter kart, etc). I dont care much about controlling a beast, i just like the race.

edit: Oh, while we're on the subject, some of the most adrenaline pumping racing was definitely the shifter kart. It also sounds the dumbest :D.
 

Nafensoriel

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Put an electric on any track with equivalent chassis ICE it will lose unless you tweak the rules to adjust. The battery weight is the whole ballgame. Part of what drew me to love racing was the idea of a weak human being controlling a visceral beastly fire spitting monster and forcing it to their will. Ive tried to watch E racing and it seems it is missing the beast so MEH.
Technically this is incorrect. A hybrid with a performance electric motor would have a significant advantage against an ICE.
Before you say "but no parallel system hybrids cant do that!" please remember that there has been exactly zero real interest in building them outside of large sea-going ships... and in those cases direct driven vs electric motor is a no contest in favor of the electric motor.

It would be a very short prototype process to make a parallel hybrid system race car that could crush an ICE. That transmission weight is absurd and in general ICEs inherent variability ruins their efficiency.
To be fair it would also cost a fortune. The cooling system design alone would have to be on par with aircraft engines and engineering a mux to handle 350ish Kw and be extremely light would be.... fun but not outside of science fiction. Hell people are mainly focusing on pure EV simply because it fits the "needs" bill and is considerably cheaper to design. Remember in engineering it isn't always the best option that becomes the mainstay but rather the most cost-efficient option. There is no use case outside of large ships for extremely high-powered hybrids and races typically are not long enough that near future batteries won't be able to slot in there somewhere.

So if you have a spare billion or so... I could make a very fun vehicle for track days.
 

Axman

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Before you say "but no parallel system hybrids cant do that!" please remember that there has been exactly zero real interest in building them outside of large sea-going ships... and in those cases direct driven vs electric motor is a no contest in favor of the electric motor.

They're more common than people might think. Trains, busses, a lot of bigger fleet vehicles use series-style diesel-electric motors. Parallel-style diesel hybrids are available in Europe.

A series-pattern hybrid doesn't even need batteries, or at least, not big ones, and they can use super capacitors. The fuel engine can handle all the heating and cooling so you don't get power or efficiency losses on the electric motor. I expect these to win out in the long run. Especially with generators that can run on a range of fuels.
 

Wade88

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It will be glorious to use a modern multifuel engine instead of limping my old continental inline 6's from M55 series trucks along. Most are converted to diesel for lack of that ball that handles the multifuel aspect. It should be more reliable to do it how things are done now vs how they were done in the early 50's.
 

Nebulous

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I saw a Mustang SUV a few days ago on my way to a job site. If my co-worker didn't point it out, I would never have seen it. It looked like a modded VW Atlas with Mustang taillights. As we drove past it on the highway, I wanted to puke. What a piece of shit. Looked like a soccer mom was driving it. My co-worker spewing "Oh, it looks wicked nice" I turned to him and gave him a "What the fuck are you saying?!" look.

If I was driving the truck, I would've deliberately turned into it and slam it against the concrete divider. I would try my best not to hurt the soccer mom driver tho.
 

1_rick

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Of course the electrical grid will see higher demand when EVs dominate. But people don't all arrive at the same time, or with the same charge levels... and it's pretty clear you don't know how electrical grids work, particularly in terms of wiring and other equipment. The issues will be peak hour capacity and staggering charging times to distribute the work.
How many chargers should my 400-parking-spot apartment complex get, and how should people determine who gets to wake up in the middle of the night to move their cars to stagger charging times?
 

sfsuphysics

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The reason we lost the horses for machines was they did do everything better faster and cheaper.
Sure, eventually... after a rather long time. The first autos were really no replacement for horses, eventually sure they became much more superior in some aspects like hauling goods locally (still not any sort of distance, trains won out there), horses still ruled the land of off road though. And that's one big thing that was needed for autos to really take over... infrastructure of paved roads, Big cities like NYC managed to transition much sooner because they were already under way. But yeah, how much infrastructure had to be put into place for autos to rule the day? Quite literally just about every paved road that exists in this country. That's not even talking about the fuel source either.

So yeah cars are better and faster (cheaper is arguable... but I really don't care to argue that because i have zero experience with taking care of horses). But 1) it took a rather long time from first inception to being the norm and 2) an absolutely gigantic amount of infrastructure change was needed. So everyone squawking about "things can't handle it" "it's really not that much better if at all" "you're not taking what I have away from me!" you're saying everything that the horse crowd said.

I'm really not sure how this topic on one particular electric car, that in all reality probably was built with the intention of increase fleet CAFE standards, turned into an armageddon of hatred for electric cars in general.
 
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I'm really not sure how this topic on one particular electric car, that in all reality probably was built with the intention of increase fleet CAFE standards, turned into an armageddon of hatred for electric cars in general.
Idk. Ford taking the name of one of the most recognized cars built and turning it into something else entirely seems like a likely starting point to discuss the future of EVs. Shocker, some people don't view that positively.
 

THRESHIN

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How many chargers should my 400-parking-spot apartment complex get, and how should people determine who gets to wake up in the middle of the night to move their cars to stagger charging times?

Every spot gets a charging connection. Not necessarily a charger. All cables could connect to a single or multiple rectifier (think large charger). Nobody gets up in the night since deciding what vehicles get charged when could be done automatically. It's actually not that hard.

Sure this infrastructure isn't there yet, but that's the whole point. There was a time when there wasn't a gas station on every corner. What it comes down to is if we're willing to invest in this infrastructure as a society as we did with petroleum.
 

Aurelius

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How many chargers should my 400-parking-spot apartment complex get, and how should people determine who gets to wake up in the middle of the night to move their cars to stagger charging times?
That is a real problem. But there are a few things that can address it. Software in the cars or charging system can stagger the charging on its own. You can design a charging system with simple connectors for each parking spot and a shared power source. Heck, VW has a charging robot that can run around topping up cars that need it, if the shared system wasn't enough. And of course, faster and more robust public charging stations could reduce the need to charge at home.

The point is that this is a solvable issue, and we shouldn't assume that the EV situation will be static. Remember, ten years ago it was difficult to imagine reasonably affordable EVs that could handle anything more than local drives; now, it's entirely reasonable for many people (certainly not all, but many) to have an EV as their only car. Why would we think the apartment situation won't change?
 

sfsuphysics

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Idk. Ford taking the name of one of the most recognized cars built and turning it into something else entirely seems like a likely starting point to discuss the future of EVs. Shocker, some people don't view that positively.
Not going to disagree, some people are overly emotional about change, even when it's something as simple and non-threatening as a name.

I remember the Mustangs through the 80s, IMO it was already dead then :D :D
 

Aurelius

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Not going to disagree, some people are overly emotional about change, even when it's something as simple and non-threatening as a name.

I remember the Mustangs through the 80s, IMO it was already dead then :D :D
It is funny to hear people lament Ford 'killing' the Mustang with the Mach-E, as if they've forgotten the "dark times" where the 2nd- through 4th-generation Mustangs were not only increasingly bland, but lost a lot of their performance. The Mach-E might not be as iconic as an early Mustang, but it kicks the ass of some designs... and it can still haul your kids to school.
 

noko

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I wouldn't mind an Electric Vehicle if I had my own Solar charging station for it which would also supply other loads as well such as a house. Oh why did Ford call this thing a Mustang??? The suppose Camaro looks funky as well. As a viable vehicle for someone probably depends on where they live, charging stations, how far they drive etc. No cut answer. Now the real driving force will be cost to buy, cost to own, maintenance cost, fuel costs. $ will decide which one in the end takes over.
 

DWolvin

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Agreed, EV's are hard for some people to wrap their heads around, they are so cheap per mile that the more you drive them the better they are. The first person I heard cross 100K in a model 3 had less than $2K in maintenance and just under $3K in electricity used to charge. The maintenance included a set of tires around halfway (over $1K!).
 

DooKey

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Agreed, EV's are hard for some people to wrap their heads around, they are so cheap per mile that the more you drive them the better they are. The first person I heard cross 100K in a model 3 had less than $2K in maintenance and just under $3K in electricity used to charge. The maintenance included a set of tires around halfway (over $1K!).
Not hard for me. Insufficient range, long charge times, dirty batteries (disposal), don't work well in extreme environments, etc. I'll stick to ICE for a while. As a matter of fact my 2021 Chevy 3500 diesel pulling a 14K fifth wheel laughs at EVs.

With all that said I can see how they can work well for commuters in city environments that can charge at home. However, the green argument is false. Electric power isn't "clean".

Can't wait to see how the grid handles more and more EV and how the disposal of batteries (including those used for overnight storage by utilities) is handled. I won't even bring up the requirements for rare earths and the mining increases the EV fleet will need.
 

DWolvin

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
2,798
It's far cleaner than your diesel, and the batteries seem to last fine (if not made by LG). It is going to be interesting to see the advancement when the longer range trucks hit the market, even though far more people can really get away with less than a hundred freeway miles a day, especially if you charge at home. I always hear how the grid is going to get destroyed, but charging a car is less of a hit to my electricity than the A/C.
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
705
I always hear how the grid is going to get destroyed, but charging a car is less of a hit to my electricity than the A/C.
I don't see how it's so hard to understand this point. Current grids already brownout regularly just because people turn ACs on. Now take all the energy currently supplied to regular car driving by gasoline and instead put that onto the grid as well. "Oh, but most people will charge at night". Yes, but a lot of excess power supplied at night is stored for daytime usage to help the grid. Electrical rates across the board will rise in price because of the increased usage, affecting people who don't even use EVs.

As for the "Oh, most people only need 100 miles of daily range". That's not going to work for the average person. If I charge 200 miles, but cold weather reduces that by a 1/3 or more...that's not going to fly. I paid for that electricity. I put the charging strain on the battery to get those miles.
 
Joined
Apr 29, 2002
Messages
2,541
I don't see how it's so hard to understand this point. Current grids already brownout regularly just because people turn ACs on. Now take all the energy currently supplied to regular car driving by gasoline and instead put that onto the grid as well. "Oh, but most people will charge at night". Yes, but a lot of excess power supplied at night is stored for daytime usage to help the grid. Electrical rates across the board will rise in price because of the increased usage, affecting people who don't even use EVs.

As for the "Oh, most people only need 100 miles of daily range". That's not going to work for the average person. If I charge 200 miles, but cold weather reduces that by a 1/3 or more...that's not going to fly. I paid for that electricity. I put the charging strain on the battery to get those miles.
But but Solar! Wind! Water! They will fix all.

Stupid aside, I agree with you. It will be a long time before I jump on the E bandwagon especially with the cold weather drain or superhot swell issues batteries have. I am not going to own a vehicle where when I need it to get me to work/home the most, its already a large step behind. Would it be nice to never have fuel, oil or common mechanical issue concerns? Of course. But I'm not ready to gamble. 5 more years, perhaps.
 

Dayaks

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Feb 22, 2012
Messages
8,618
I don't see how it's so hard to understand this point. Current grids already brownout regularly just because people turn ACs on. Now take all the energy currently supplied to regular car driving by gasoline and instead put that onto the grid as well. "Oh, but most people will charge at night". Yes, but a lot of excess power supplied at night is stored for daytime usage to help the grid. Electrical rates across the board will rise in price because of the increased usage, affecting people who don't even use EVs.

As for the "Oh, most people only need 100 miles of daily range". That's not going to work for the average person. If I charge 200 miles, but cold weather reduces that by a 1/3 or more...that's not going to fly. I paid for that electricity. I put the charging strain on the battery to get those miles.

Yeah, and check the Tesla forums, people lose up to 90% in a snow storm. Imagine getting stuck without power in a nor’easter.

My house only has 100amp service as does the rest of my town since the houses are all from 1930s. How do I charge 3x vehicles? It doesn’t make sense.

Now hybrids make sense, regenerative braking, using the waste heat from the gas engine for heat, ect.

Someone should do a side by side with a Camry hybrid that gets 50+ mpg.

Check out this thread on vampire drains, dude uses 120vac 15amp just to keep the battery level flat in the winter. How is this “green”?

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/alarming-amounts-of-cold-weather-vampire-drain.142755/
 
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DWolvin

2[H]4U
Joined
Nov 13, 2002
Messages
2,798
Yeah, nearly century old houses might not be able to charge with out a panel update, but then again I had to update my panel to add room for the charger circuit breakers when I put in mine. But at the end of the day it's just another 14-50 outlet, not some monstrous power draw. Nobody is going to put a supercharger in their house.

Battery issues in the cold are real, but also usually avoidable, and by cold I mean significantly below freezing. I only see low thirties where I live, and the range loss isn't notable. And if you schedule your departure, (at least tesla's) the battery warms itself up and is good to go at your departure time. I actually use this because the regenerative braking doesn't work until the battery is warmed up to operational temp. But yeah, if you live in a cold climate, home charging is a must.

Most people only Need less than 50 miles of range a day, but they will all swear that they routinely cover 100's of miles. It's the same belief that makes people get large pickups for all the rugged work they do, but I know the 15+ in my neighborhood are all pretty and waxed without a scratch. Except for Brett's old ranger that does real work.
 
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
705
Yeah, nearly century old houses might not be able to charge with out a panel update, but then again I had to update my panel to add room for the charger circuit breakers when I put in mine. But at the end of the day it's just another 14-50 outlet, not some monstrous power draw. Nobody is going to put a supercharger in their house.

Battery issues in the cold are real, but also usually avoidable, and by cold I mean significantly below freezing. I only see low thirties where I live, and the range loss isn't notable. And if you schedule your departure, (at least tesla's) the battery warms itself up and is good to go at your departure time. I actually use this because the regenerative braking doesn't work until the battery is warmed up to operational temp. But yeah, if you live in a cold climate, home charging is a must.

Most people only Need less than 50 miles of range a day, but they will all swear that they routinely cover 100's of miles. It's the same belief that makes people get large pickups for all the rugged work they do, but I know the 15+ in my neighborhood are all pretty and waxed without a scratch. Except for Brett's old ranger that does real work.
Sure, you might have the range for daily driving. Point still stands. I paid for that electricity and now I don't get to use a portion of it. You put the wear on the battery for a charge and now I don't get the full range from it. I have to use my own electricity to keep the batteries warm so I can effectively draw from them in the first place.
 
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