Ford Mustang Mach E Leak: Mustang goes Electric

Axman

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That's one of the reasons why I tell people to treat EVs as an inevitability.

Without any new infrastructure, it will only be EVs for drivers with limited needs. Hybrids will be necessary for anyone else.

And as long as there’s gas for hybrids, there’s gas for ICE-only.
 

Gideon

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Apparently there's been a surge in electrified car sales in the US even as overall sales have declined. The market dipped 13 percent year-over-year in the summer, but sales of hybrids and EVs surged over 60 percent. They represented over a tenth of total vehicle sales.

That's one of the reasons why I tell people to treat EVs as an inevitability. The market is still young, but the shift is very clearly in favor of electrification — even if regulators give you plenty of time, the market might not. It's to the point where I'd think very carefully about buying an ICE-only car if I intended to keep it for a long time, as the value could tank (moreso than usual) within several years.

I will keep driving my Hellcat Challenger, no matter how many EV cars are sold.
 

Aurelius

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Without any new infrastructure, it will only be EVs for drivers with limited needs. Hybrids will be necessary for anyone else.

And as long as there’s gas for hybrids, there’s gas for ICE-only.
But that's assuming there won't be new infrastructure, and you know that's coming. Why is it that the holdouts always picture a static universe where nothing changes? I'm not saying things are moving as quickly as they should, but they are moving... and if history is any indication, there's a tipping point approaching where you'll be in the minority if you stick to ICE.
 

Aurelius

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I will keep driving my Hellcat Challenger, no matter how many EV cars are sold.
Until it becomes too expensive to run, or (if you really hold out long enough) there are too few gas stations around to justify it. What do you replace it with ten or even five years from now, when EVs are much more common and advanced?

A Model 3 Performance can already outperform at least some Hellcats right now (assuming they're stock). I don't know about you, but I wouldn't insist on keeping a gas muscle car forever if I knew that someone in an electric sedan could probably outrace it while picking up their kid from soccer practice.
 

Axman

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But that's assuming there won't be new infrastructure, and you know that's coming.

I'm not betting on it. If anything, I expect what infrastructure we have to continue being pushed to its limits while at the same time the people who should be in charge of building new infrastructure blocking any meaningful development, saying current power systems are too dirty or unsafe.
 

Gideon

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But that's assuming there won't be new infrastructure, and you know that's coming. Why is it that the holdouts always picture a static universe where nothing changes? I'm not saying things are moving as quickly as they should, but they are moving... and if history is any indication, there's a tipping point approaching where you'll be in the minority if you stick to ICE.

The power grid cant even handle a surge in demand during summers and winters in lots of places, let alone the large power draw of everyone plugging a car in to charge. It will take decades to build the infrastructure needed to support that.
 

LukeTbk

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A kid i went to school with his house had a power pole with large lines going down the block right outside his bedroom window. He got a rare form of cancer as a teenager and had his leg amputated above the knee. Years later a work buddys parent found their lakeside dream home and moved in. I saw the huge powerlines right outside and told him my concerns to a reply of "its not a problem". about a year later his mom gets a rare form of cancer ...in her EAR! I never even knew such a cancer existed and mom passed away shortly after.

like Cigarettes it took decades before the highly lucrative business was held accountable for the reality they covered up for so long. Seems the E ppl are in the same denial the smokers were. Cmon Man... its clean and quiet and needs less maintainance.

I think that a bit of a revisionist history, the business could not cover up the link between smoking and cancer (for one many country with serious health agency did not had a tobacco industry to care about)

https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/21/2/87
Cigarettes were recognised as the cause of the epidemic in the 1940s and 1950s, with the confluence of studies from epidemiology, animal experiments, cellular pathology and chemical analytics

Since the 40s and for sure the 50s, the link was fully out of the open and known, what the industry did confronted to the mountain of public scientific evidence was create a large public relation campaign (including propaganda movie showed to high schooler) and own sponsored science to challenge it, create confusion and doubt.

A bit like George Bush campaign shifting talk about climate change instead of global warming because it poll has seem less dangerous by voters or clean coal or the giant amount of move surrounding the climate issue, it was too big to be covered, creating a mountain of counter claim was more the way to go. If you mean not sharing their own internal data about how bad their product was yes sure.

Has for the link between magnetic field all around us and cancer I imagine it is studied because of obvious the potential to be a major issue is (and it seem to have a giant list of study from all around the world in the last 50 year's looking at it that can be consulted), but for that sort of thing distance from the source tend to be a giant importance because it is often at a square in the equation.

The amount of Mg at 3 foot of a desktop lamp is above 1 mG and old crt computer monitor it could go above 5, you can be sure to be under .5 mG if you are at 700 feet of a giant power line and if there is a link (which I imagine likely) it is probably a weak one has study that look at health outcome of utility worker constantly near high power source all around the world cannot find a statically significant link to most cancer, some leaving the door for the brain cancer to have one, some no. Study about something like smoking and cancer did not had an hard time finding a link in lab setting when exposing animals or human cell to giant amount of mG, they have an hard time finding an effect. It seem different of situation where the science is really clear (global warming, tobacco) but campaign to make it fuzzy is made by industries.
 

Gideon

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Until it becomes too expensive to run, or (if you really hold out long enough) there are too few gas stations around to justify it. What do you replace it with ten or even five years from now, when EVs are much more common and advanced?

A Model 3 Performance can already outperform at least some Hellcats right now (assuming they're stock). I don't know about you, but I wouldn't insist on keeping a gas muscle car forever if I knew that someone in an electric sedan could probably outrace it while picking up their kid from soccer practice.
Gasoline will continue to be made for a long time, people are still driving old cars and that wont stop just because EV becomes the more popular new vehicle at some point in the future. Also I never plan to replace it.

Your welcome to come to Sonoma anytime and try to race me with a model 3 on the track with my lowly Hellcat. Id give you a grand if you can even stay on the same lap as me. Those electric cars cant handle the power draw needed to actually race for any length of time, so 1 run down a drag strip and then a long cool off and even then the battery wears down quick doing that, while my Hellcat can do it all day, on a road course the Model 3 would be a joke.
 

LukeTbk

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The power grid cant even handle a surge in demand during summers and winters in lots of places, let alone the large power draw of everyone plugging a car in to charge. It will take decades to build the infrastructure needed to support that.
It will rarely (I suspect) by everyone, specially in place that are able to charge more or less depending on time, it would be in many place not too hard to have something similar to different moment to water lawn depending on your postal code or odd-even numbers of your house and so on, where the electricity cost more and less at other time, making the use of timer to use the best price or even using the best days to charge it has most car will not need a full charge every day.

It could still obviously be an issue in many place, but I am not sure it need to support everyone charging at the very same time to work.
 

NightReaver

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Gasoline will continue to be made for a long time, people are still driving old cars and that wont stop just because EV becomes the more popular new vehicle at some point in the future. Also I never plan to replace it.

Your welcome to come to Sonoma anytime and try to race me with a model 3 on the track with my lowly Hellcat. Id give you a grand if you can even stay on the same lap as me. Those electric cars cant handle the power draw needed to actually race for any length of time, so 1 run down a drag strip and then a long cool off and even then the battery wears down quick doing that, while my Hellcat can do it all day, on a road course the Model 3 would be a joke.
EV fanboys are really something else at times. Only way gasoline is going anytime soon is with massive government sabotage. But I bet some of these "superior future" people would cheer that on.
 

Nafensoriel

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I'm actually Canadian as well. The projects I worked on were at the Bruce on 1&2 restart and at Pickering going back over 10 years ago now, so all CANDU. Call me biased, but I'm a huge fan of the CANDU design.
Candu is nice. Always has been ahead of the curve IMO.
I saw a micro 20mw design recently from an old friend though that might be my new favorite. aSMR solutions being presented right now are just... elegant. I wish more people would realize the reactors that exist right now are not production models. Every single one is unique. In the next decade that changes and every idiot's argument against nuclear vanishes in a puff of smoke.

--------
The anti EV thing is kinda funny though. I absolutely will not convert all my vehicles to pure EV anytime soon but that is simply because I live in the boondocks with weather that really isn't friendly to batteries. The actual transition to EVs is mostly being pushed by simple logic. Anyone who has ever been an engineer will know absolutely and without fail that there are two options for high efficiency. Electricity and steam. Steam is impractical in any situation where you cant use a ton of it(the average civilian has zero idea how much industry still runs on steam).

The instant you present a business with an EV that can:
1] Work for an entire day without a refuel
2] Recharge in the downcycle
3] Is cost comparable

There will be zero reasons to buy a liquid-powered ICE. The cost savings alone for maintenance and downtime are staggering. The work done per vehicle is also staggering. A diesel vs an EV for towing is a laughable joke. We have an entire industry that made this transition as well... ships. Gone are the days of direct drive props. In are the days of electric azipods and thrusters. Why people WANT to keep transmissions though? Seriously? Doesn't make sense. Vroom Vroom doesn't tweak my nethers torque does... don't care if it's silent. Gasoline is also garbage. There are far better liquid fuels, especially for performance.
 

Aurelius

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Gasoline will continue to be made for a long time, people are still driving old cars and that wont stop just because EV becomes the more popular new vehicle at some point in the future. Also I never plan to replace it.

Your welcome to come to Sonoma anytime and try to race me with a model 3 on the track with my lowly Hellcat. Id give you a grand if you can even stay on the same lap as me. Those electric cars cant handle the power draw needed to actually race for any length of time, so 1 run down a drag strip and then a long cool off and even then the battery wears down quick doing that, while my Hellcat can do it all day, on a road course the Model 3 would be a joke.
You're probably going to replace it unless you don't think you'll live more than a decade or so, and at some point the gas station infrastructure will be inadequate for the kind of driving you want to do. The notion that you can just live in a cocoon for the rest of your life as the world moves on is... misguided, to put it mildly.

Yes, sustained performance has been an issue with EVs, but it's much less so with newer models. The Porsche Taycan and Model S Plaid in particular are much better about lasting more than a lap or two. And more importantly... no, you can't run that Hellcat on the track all day, because it has a finite gas tank and terrible fuel economy. You'll be stopping frequently too; it's just that your "recharge" takes much less time at present.

And you can talk big all you want about track times, but the truth is that a Hellcat as a daily driver will be consistently outperformed by that electric sedan. And that's with today's EVs; what happens in several years when there are EVs that can beat that Hellcat even in more extreme tests? I'm presuming you bought that Hellcat because you wanted a fast car that was fun to drive, not because it makes loud vroom-vroom noises... if that's the case, why stick to the Hellcat at that point?
 

Aurelius

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EV fanboys are really something else at times. Only way gasoline is going anytime soon is with massive government sabotage. But I bet some of these "superior future" people would cheer that on.
I'm not saying gas is disappearing quickly. I'm saying that the argument for buying an EV is getting stronger, and that the demand is clearly there.

I'm only a "fanboy" insofar as hard logic supports EVs. They're overall better for the environment; they're better about immediate air and noise pollution; they're generally less expensive to run; and of course, they're increasingly more powerful than ICE equivalents. They represent the future, whether that's five years from now or 15, and it baffles me why people would try to swim against that tide.
 

Aurelius

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I'm not betting on it. If anything, I expect what infrastructure we have to continue being pushed to its limits while at the same time the people who should be in charge of building new infrastructure blocking any meaningful development, saying current power systems are too dirty or unsafe.
I do think leaders are dragging their heels, and they need to get that swift kick to be sure they're ready. But we shouldn't put the brakes on the EV transition just because we don't know if there will be enough power capacity when EVs represent a large chunk of car sales.
 

Gideon

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You're probably going to replace it unless you don't think you'll live more than a decade or so, and at some point the gas station infrastructure will be inadequate for the kind of driving you want to do. The notion that you can just live in a cocoon for the rest of your life as the world moves on is... misguided, to put it mildly.

Yes, sustained performance has been an issue with EVs, but it's much less so with newer models. The Porsche Taycan and Model S Plaid in particular are much better about lasting more than a lap or two. And more importantly... no, you can't run that Hellcat on the track all day, because it has a finite gas tank and terrible fuel economy. You'll be stopping frequently too; it's just that your "recharge" takes much less time at present.

And you can talk big all you want about track times, but the truth is that a Hellcat as a daily driver will be consistently outperformed by that electric sedan. And that's with today's EVs; what happens in several years when there are EVs that can beat that Hellcat even in more extreme tests? I'm presuming you bought that Hellcat because you wanted a fast car that was fun to drive, not because it makes loud vroom-vroom noises... if that's the case, why stick to the Hellcat at that point?

You buy cars to replace them, I buy cars and maintain them because I enjoy them and I have 0 plans to replace it ever and in 30 years the gas infrastructure will still be there or do you think big rigs are going to long haul on electric batteries? Passenger planes flying on electric? Lets be real they will be using petroleum products for decades to come and my work is a mere 5 minutes from my house so mileage matters not to me. It's misguided to think everything will change overnight.

They cant sustain the performance like a ICE can, the batteries get far to hot with that kind of a draw and will slow the vehicle. Racing is grueling and they are not up to the task and likely wont be for several years and yes my Hellcat will need gas after many laps but the performance will never drop off while a EV will.

I bought the Hellcat to have fun and because I enjoy driving and hearing that engine roar when I want it to. As for your love of EV's let me know how you like those massive payments to drive the same drone everyone else has, make sure you send Elon his extra money to unlock features on your car otherwise they might cease to function. Plus driving a EV is like watching Star Wars with the sound off, just not my idea of fun. Now I can't wait till the next track day at Sonoma.
 

LukeTbk

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Passenger planes flying on electric?
From my limited understanding that an important point, maybe it changed but the last time I did check, the world usage was exactly the same has the refining process, i.e. (you could almost deduce the percentage of airtravel versus truck-car by looking what come out of barrel, how the world work is pretty much a direct result of the composition of a barrel):

When a barrel of oil is refine you expect out of it:

Petroleum products produced from one 42-gallon barrel of oil input at U.S. refineries, 2020
ProductGallons
Finished motor gasoline19.40
Distillate fuel oil13.44
Kerosene-type jet fuel2.90
Petroleum coke2.18
Still gas1.76
Hydrocarbon gas liquids1.55
Asphalt and road oil0.92
Residual fuel oil0.55
Naptha for feedstocks0.50
Lubricants0.42
Other oils for feedstocks0.29
Miscellaneous products0.25
Special napthas0.08
Finished aviation gasoline0.04
Kerosene0.04
Waxes< 0.01
Total44.65
Processing gain2.65

Has long has people make Kerosene, they will make (without any choice) 6-7 time more gasoline and it will not be wasted, at 34000kj by liter easy to transport and store it is too exceptional of a product.

Maybe they will find a better usage, but has long lubricant, plane or the giant generator inside boat use the product of refining I think we can expect that car gasoline will be made and available. (or all sent to some countries that take a longer transition where weather make it less sensical, like Canada-Russia)
 
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Darunion

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I think having options is nice, it also helps to put pressure on automakers to possibly compete. I think gas will still be around a long time but it is nice to have the electric as well. I like the idea of leaving the house on a full charge for work. Though electric isn't for me, it is for a lot of people and its awesome there is an option for them. (gets back in his ram rebel)
 

LukeTbk

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I think having options is nice, it also helps to put pressure on automakers to possibly compete. I think gas will still be around a long time but it is nice to have the electric as well. I like the idea of leaving the house on a full charge for work. Though electric isn't for me, it is for a lot of people and its awesome there is an option for them. (gets back in his ram rebel)
Looking at the new F-150 (that I imagine will be a GPU type vapor launch and for a long time impossible to buy), it look such like an incredible product.

You have a bigger trunk than a large sedan on the front of your pick-up, more than 10, 120v-20Amp plug, a 240v plug, more than 700 pound of torque virtually equal on all your rpm band, superb weight distribution and what look like a 177kwh battery system than can power your house for days in case of an power outage (or powering very powerful tools on location).

It also open design for the engine to be that small, transmission and so on, the battery can have a custom shape, it open the door to make very powerful flat nose pick-up with a giant bed for example easily.
 

Gideon

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Looking at the new F-150 (that I imagine will be a GPU type vapor launch and for a long time impossible to buy), it look such like an incredible product.

You have a bigger trunk than a large sedan on the front of your pick-up, more than 10, 120v-20Amp plug, a 240v plug, more than 700 pound of torque virtually equal on all your rpm band, superb weight distribution and what look like a 177kwh battery system than can power your house for days in case of an power outage (or powering very powerful tools on location).

It also open design for the engine to be that small, transmission and so on, the battery can have a custom shape, it open the door to make very powerful flat nose pick-up with a giant bed for example easily.

I would like to know what it's rated at when towing, my race car hauler take a toll on mileage on my truck.
 

Nafensoriel

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I would like to know what it's rated at when towing, my race car hauler take a toll on mileage on my truck.
For cars, the towing capacity is mostly matched at 3-5k lbs/standard size car.
The Ford E is 10k lbs target iirc.

This is not a limitation of the motor or battery capacity but rather a limitation of the battery weight. The motors themselves will out tow the frames they are installed in. Any electric motor of that size will. They have enough torque to physically twist the truck's frames. While battery tech is unlikely to really change much capacity-wise in the next 20-30 years EVs will not be held back by their motors.
/edit just realized you might have meant run time capacity. That won't matter due to the above power to weight ratio that is possible with an EV motor.
 

LukeTbk

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I would like to know what it's rated at when towing, my race car hauler take a toll on mileage on my truck.
Lot of secrecy, the battery mileage is evaluated with a 1,000 pounds load in the bed (300 miles with the extended range on optimal scenario could go over 400 miles), but I think they have been quiet when towing has of now and it could be because the 120 miles or sub rumors could be true, specially if you go above 65% of the 10,000 pounds capacity.

Someone did try to evaluate it


For many that want certain type of towing (camper for example), they will need to wait a couple of generation I think, making it more possible when range will be in the 500-600 and charging omnipresent.
 

Aurelius

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You buy cars to replace them, I buy cars and maintain them because I enjoy them and I have 0 plans to replace it ever and in 30 years the gas infrastructure will still be there or do you think big rigs are going to long haul on electric batteries? Passenger planes flying on electric? Lets be real they will be using petroleum products for decades to come and my work is a mere 5 minutes from my house so mileage matters not to me. It's misguided to think everything will change overnight.

They cant sustain the performance like a ICE can, the batteries get far to hot with that kind of a draw and will slow the vehicle. Racing is grueling and they are not up to the task and likely wont be for several years and yes my Hellcat will need gas after many laps but the performance will never drop off while a EV will.

I bought the Hellcat to have fun and because I enjoy driving and hearing that engine roar when I want it to. As for your love of EV's let me know how you like those massive payments to drive the same drone everyone else has, make sure you send Elon his extra money to unlock features on your car otherwise they might cease to function. Plus driving a EV is like watching Star Wars with the sound off, just not my idea of fun. Now I can't wait till the next track day at Sonoma.
What you say you'll do and what you'll actually do are two different things. It's easy to claim you'll never replace your Hellcat while it's relatively fresh. Will you still be saying that 10, 20 or 30 years from now, as it becomes increasingly expensive to maintain, parts become harder to find and gas station infrastructure starts to thin out? Will your family and financial situations be that stable? And let's be frank: given how quickly EVs are advancing, there will probably be a time when someone's $30K commuter EV will kick your Hellcat's ass.

EVs are racing now. Formula E is short, but it's full-on racing. And again, why do you assume the tech is static? It's getting better and will continue to get better.

Please don't pretend you're a counterculture rebel because you bought one mass-produced car instead of another. You aren't special because you bought a Dodge (or a Tesla, for that matter). I just want something that's fast and kind to the planet. And some of us don't need to hear loud noises to enjoy a car. Me, I'd enjoy smoking a muscle car in a whisper-quiet EV... I could hold a normal-volume conversation with my wife while I left my rival in the dust.
 

Gideon

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What you say you'll do and what you'll actually do are two different things. It's easy to claim you'll never replace your Hellcat while it's relatively fresh. Will you still be saying that 10, 20 or 30 years from now, as it becomes increasingly expensive to maintain, parts become harder to find and gas station infrastructure starts to thin out? Will your family and financial situations be that stable? And let's be frank: given how quickly EVs are advancing, there will probably be a time when someone's $30K commuter EV will kick your Hellcat's ass.

EVs are racing now. Formula E is short, but it's full-on racing. And again, why do you assume the tech is static? It's getting better and will continue to get better.

Please don't pretend you're a counterculture rebel because you bought one mass-produced car instead of another. You aren't special because you bought a Dodge (or a Tesla, for that matter). I just want something that's fast and kind to the planet. And some of us don't need to hear loud noises to enjoy a car. Me, I'd enjoy smoking a muscle car in a whisper-quiet EV... I could hold a normal-volume conversation with my wife while I left my rival in the dust.

My 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 begs to differ with your idea I replace cars all the time. It's really not hard to keep a vehicle running and in good shape, especially since I used to work for Chrysler and do engine performance and reliability testing. I just use my hands and knowledge to fix anything that wears out and that truck sold quite well so parts are still super easy to get, especially since the truck did not change much over the years. Like I said you have been conditioned to run and replace vehicles and the car companies spend big money to make you have that train of thought. I find it unlikely that a EV will ever only cost 30K unless the current administration is going to prop them up with massive rebates, but I would hope technology progresses. I just find it odd you hate the fact I drive a high performance ICE, while I have no issue if you want to drive a EV.

Formula E doesn't really get great viewership here, it's popularity has been lack luster so far and is still trying to turn a profit last I heard. To me it would like be going to electric drag races, it would kill most of the fun, deafening sound, smell of the exhaust and the pressure change the blower causes. All of that gets people excited and pumped up, while a high pitched whine from the electric motor pushed to the limit.. not so much.

Your pretending that a EV is kind to the planet, lithium mining is horrible to the environment and almost no one recycles the used batteries, so we got a waste problem with them for now. Also to keep them lightweight they use tons of plastic which is made with oil and they also still need lubricants. If your power to charge it comes from a coal plant then yeah it's not very clean either. Good luck with your hopes to have that EV car one day that is cheaper and faster then my Hellcat, for now I will just enjoy my vehicle that exists today.
 

THRESHIN

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Candu is nice. Always has been ahead of the curve IMO.
I saw a micro 20mw design recently from an old friend though that might be my new favorite. aSMR solutions being presented right now are just... elegant. I wish more people would realize the reactors that exist right now are not production models. Every single one is unique. In the next decade that changes and every idiot's argument against nuclear vanishes in a puff of smoke.

--------
The anti EV thing is kinda funny though. I absolutely will not convert all my vehicles to pure EV anytime soon but that is simply because I live in the boondocks with weather that really isn't friendly to batteries. The actual transition to EVs is mostly being pushed by simple logic. Anyone who has ever been an engineer will know absolutely and without fail that there are two options for high efficiency. Electricity and steam. Steam is impractical in any situation where you cant use a ton of it(the average civilian has zero idea how much industry still runs on steam).

The instant you present a business with an EV that can:
1] Work for an entire day without a refuel
2] Recharge in the downcycle
3] Is cost comparable

There will be zero reasons to buy a liquid-powered ICE. The cost savings alone for maintenance and downtime are staggering. The work done per vehicle is also staggering. A diesel vs an EV for towing is a laughable joke. We have an entire industry that made this transition as well... ships. Gone are the days of direct drive props. In are the days of electric azipods and thrusters. Why people WANT to keep transmissions though? Seriously? Doesn't make sense. Vroom Vroom doesn't tweak my nethers torque does... don't care if it's silent. Gasoline is also garbage. There are far better liquid fuels, especially for performance.

candu was well ahead of its time, but as you're speaking to some of these SMR designs put the candu to shame. i have a feeling that as the tech becomes more 'proven' a lot of the anti-nuclear stuff will disappear. could be wrong, next 10 years will tell.

getting back onto EVs, i'm thinking along similar lines to you. as they become better it'll he hard not to consider one. fueling my car up at home would be a dream. right now with current tech its very difficult for myself. i drive 100km each way to work and in the dead winter of january i'm sure the range won't be great with the heaters on. i have to be able to rely on it, not have the range be a maybe.

still, i have to say i will REALLY miss driving manual
 

Aurelius

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My 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 begs to differ with your idea I replace cars all the time. It's really not hard to keep a vehicle running and in good shape, especially since I used to work for Chrysler and do engine performance and reliability testing. I just use my hands and knowledge to fix anything that wears out and that truck sold quite well so parts are still super easy to get, especially since the truck did not change much over the years. Like I said you have been conditioned to run and replace vehicles and the car companies spend big money to make you have that train of thought. I find it unlikely that a EV will ever only cost 30K unless the current administration is going to prop them up with massive rebates, but I would hope technology progresses. I just find it odd you hate the fact I drive a high performance ICE, while I have no issue if you want to drive a EV.
It's a bit odd to claim it's "really not hard" to maintain a vehicle for a long time when you're a former Chrysler reliability tester. Most of us haven't worked for the manufacturer, and it's not reasonable to expect everyday people to have extensive car maintenance know-how (basic, certainly, but not extensive). And the issue isn't being "conditioned" to replace cars every ten years, it's that in this particular ten years the automotive landscape will have changed dramatically. I'd love to keep an EV for ages if I could replace the battery and keep the platform reasonably current.

I don't hate that you drive an ICE right now; I hate that you're making a commitment to ICE that could very easily buckle under practical reality as the world transitions to EVs. It's like a 20-year-old getting a tattoo of their partner while shouting "our love will last forever!" The promise is sincere and the emotions are strong, but everyone on the outside knows they're going to regret that tattoo later. It's easy to declare that you'll still be driving your Hellcat Challenger 30 years from now; it's another matter to actually make that happen, especially when the ICE infrastructure will likely be a shade of its former self by then.


Formula E doesn't really get great viewership here, it's popularity has been lack luster so far and is still trying to turn a profit last I heard. To me it would like be going to electric drag races, it would kill most of the fun, deafening sound, smell of the exhaust and the pressure change the blower causes. All of that gets people excited and pumped up, while a high pitched whine from the electric motor pushed to the limit.. not so much.
The viewership certainly doesn't match F1, but it nearly turned a profit at the height of the pandemic — that's not bad when they couldn't even have live crowds. And I thought people watched racing for the thrill of competition, not for the vroom-vroom sounds.


Your pretending that a EV is kind to the planet, lithium mining is horrible to the environment and almost no one recycles the used batteries, so we got a waste problem with them for now. Also to keep them lightweight they use tons of plastic which is made with oil and they also still need lubricants. If your power to charge it comes from a coal plant then yeah it's not very clean either. Good luck with your hopes to have that EV car one day that is cheaper and faster then my Hellcat, for now I will just enjoy my vehicle that exists today.
EVs are overall kinder to the planet, even right now. Lithium mining is an issue, and companies need to improve recycling, but the net impact is still less — even if your electricity comes from 'dirty' power, in some cases. And again, you have this odd obsession with assuming the car industry is completely static, that nothing will change.

It's entirely likely that Hellcat-beating EV will happen (not counting that the Model 3 Performance already beats it in a drag race). There's already motor and battery technology in development that will significantly improve performance, range and endurance. And the overall costs of EVs are coming down. Tesla and VW both expect to deliver $25K EVs (and in VW's case, that's before subsidies). Neither of those will threaten your Hellcat, of course, but that along with tech advancements suggests performance will filter down from where it is today. I won't be surprised if there's a Model 3 Performance (or Mustang Mach-E, or...) that more thoroughly beats your car for a similar price or less.

And I'm not saying you can't enjoy your car today — I'm just saying its advantages are diminishing now, and will continue to diminish in as little as a few years.
 

Axman

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jul 13, 2005
Messages
12,001
I'm not saying gas is disappearing quickly. I'm saying that the argument for buying an EV is getting stronger, and that the demand is clearly there.

Demand is only limited by infrastructure. Once that reaches its cutoff point the only people buying pure EVs will be EV owners looking to upgrade.

As a reminder, none of this applies to hybrids.

EVs might as well drive on their own roads. That is how far removed electricity is from transportation. That is how little infrastructure exists for them.
 

Nafensoriel

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 23, 2015
Messages
382
My 2005 Dodge Ram 1500 begs to differ with your idea I replace cars all the time. It's really not hard to keep a vehicle running and in good shape, especially since I used to work for Chrysler and do engine performance and reliability testing. I just use my hands and knowledge to fix anything that wears out and that truck sold quite well so parts are still super easy to get, especially since the truck did not change much over the years. Like I said you have been conditioned to run and replace vehicles and the car companies spend big money to make you have that train of thought. I find it unlikely that a EV will ever only cost 30K unless the current administration is going to prop them up with massive rebates, but I would hope technology progresses. I just find it odd you hate the fact I drive a high performance ICE, while I have no issue if you want to drive a EV.

Formula E doesn't really get great viewership here, it's popularity has been lack luster so far and is still trying to turn a profit last I heard. To me it would like be going to electric drag races, it would kill most of the fun, deafening sound, smell of the exhaust and the pressure change the blower causes. All of that gets people excited and pumped up, while a high pitched whine from the electric motor pushed to the limit.. not so much.

Your pretending that a EV is kind to the planet, lithium mining is horrible to the environment and almost no one recycles the used batteries, so we got a waste problem with them for now. Also to keep them lightweight they use tons of plastic which is made with oil and they also still need lubricants. If your power to charge it comes from a coal plant then yeah it's not very clean either. Good luck with your hopes to have that EV car one day that is cheaper and faster then my Hellcat, for now I will just enjoy my vehicle that exists today.
Only responding to the mining comments here.

Lithium isn't that bad to mine. The bunk about it being terrible is because in some situations you have to move a mind-bogglingly amount of dirt and water to produce a ton of lithium for sale. Sulfuric acid isn't even a brain fart of a concern. Everything "wrong" with lithium mining is quite bluntly crap that doesn't matter over 50 years as the sites themselves are ridiculously easy to restore.

To put it into perspective in Canada our political candidates(all of them) promised to build one million new homes this year in one form or another. If they actually did this the land these homes will be built on will be more damaged environmentally than a lithium mine of the same square footage. The native species would be expunged as the sites were planed down to smooth soil and then every tree in the "natural park" would be hand planted by someone... sans squirrels of course. The difference with lithium is it's typically found where no one wants to live... even animals.

Or you could do what I've been doing for decades and scream at a brick wall about alcohol fuels. Cleaner, more efficient, can be made from literal garbage, and oh... and in the case of methanol it's one of the very few industries in existence that actually consumes more carbon than it produces at a rate damn near 50% of the output volume. Oh, and a hellcat powered by them would not only run on higher octane but with a minor engine modification would make your gasser look like a slow piece of crap. Technology is awesome ain't it? We really should embrace that new smell rather than clinging to old crap.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
2,022
Oh, and a hellcat powered by them would not only run on higher octane but with a minor engine modification would make your gasser look like a slow piece of crap. Technology is awesome ain't it? We really should embrace that new smell rather than clinging to old crap.
That a really 2 strong claim here, that it would be a minor change (specially if you want are not in Brasil and want to start the car in the winter) and that it would augment performance considering a liter of E100 has so much less energy in it than regular gasoline (you loose about a third I think), car fully make for E85 and up are what usually 15% more performance than when using gasoline ? At the cost of much much lower mpg obviously
 

NightReaver

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,088
EVs aren't going anywhere until those prices come down. I see like what? 3 or so models that are 30k/under and they all look like compact crap. That's also with massive government incentives. Imagine if the gov wasn't playing favorites, that market would be dead in the water except for the true believers.

Lithium batteries suck and they're being force fed down our throats.
 

Armenius

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 28, 2014
Messages
31,255
You're probably going to replace it unless you don't think you'll live more than a decade or so, and at some point the gas station infrastructure will be inadequate for the kind of driving you want to do. The notion that you can just live in a cocoon for the rest of your life as the world moves on is... misguided, to put it mildly.

Yes, sustained performance has been an issue with EVs, but it's much less so with newer models. The Porsche Taycan and Model S Plaid in particular are much better about lasting more than a lap or two. And more importantly... no, you can't run that Hellcat on the track all day, because it has a finite gas tank and terrible fuel economy. You'll be stopping frequently too; it's just that your "recharge" takes much less time at present.

And you can talk big all you want about track times, but the truth is that a Hellcat as a daily driver will be consistently outperformed by that electric sedan. And that's with today's EVs; what happens in several years when there are EVs that can beat that Hellcat even in more extreme tests? I'm presuming you bought that Hellcat because you wanted a fast car that was fun to drive, not because it makes loud vroom-vroom noises... if that's the case, why stick to the Hellcat at that point?
The Model 3 Performance can only go about 45-50 miles in Track mode before needing to recharge. That is about the same distance a Challenger Hellcat can go at the track (45-60 miles) on a tank of gas. Both cars perform about the same in acceleration and roadholding. The Model 3 Performance benefits greatly from AWD, though. The RWD Model 3 is much, much slower in both a straight line and through corners. A Challenger Hellcat also costs around the same money as a Model 3 Performance. If you buy the mythical $35,000 version of the Model 3 you'll only be about as quick as a Ford Fusion.
What you say you'll do and what you'll actually do are two different things. It's easy to claim you'll never replace your Hellcat while it's relatively fresh. Will you still be saying that 10, 20 or 30 years from now, as it becomes increasingly expensive to maintain, parts become harder to find and gas station infrastructure starts to thin out? Will your family and financial situations be that stable? And let's be frank: given how quickly EVs are advancing, there will probably be a time when someone's $30K commuter EV will kick your Hellcat's ass.

EVs are racing now. Formula E is short, but it's full-on racing. And again, why do you assume the tech is static? It's getting better and will continue to get better.

Please don't pretend you're a counterculture rebel because you bought one mass-produced car instead of another. You aren't special because you bought a Dodge (or a Tesla, for that matter). I just want something that's fast and kind to the planet. And some of us don't need to hear loud noises to enjoy a car. Me, I'd enjoy smoking a muscle car in a whisper-quiet EV... I could hold a normal-volume conversation with my wife while I left my rival in the dust.
FE is 268 HP cars around tight, tiny city circuits that only last about 45 minutes. I've tried to get into the series and couldn't do it. The racing is close only due to the nature of the circuits they race on and the car swapping they used to do. Now that the batteries and tires last the entire race there is nothing interesting that really happens anymore.

Let me be clear that I have no issue or vendetta against electric vehicles. It is the politics and faithful to the cause that I hate. As I said in a prior post there is a place for both EV and ICE in this world and we should not be fighting on killing one off in favor of the other.
 

Gideon

2[H]4U
Joined
Apr 13, 2006
Messages
2,997
Only responding to the mining comments here.

Lithium isn't that bad to mine. The bunk about it being terrible is because in some situations you have to move a mind-bogglingly amount of dirt and water to produce a ton of lithium for sale. Sulfuric acid isn't even a brain fart of a concern. Everything "wrong" with lithium mining is quite bluntly crap that doesn't matter over 50 years as the sites themselves are ridiculously easy to restore.

To put it into perspective in Canada our political candidates(all of them) promised to build one million new homes this year in one form or another. If they actually did this the land these homes will be built on will be more damaged environmentally than a lithium mine of the same square footage. The native species would be expunged as the sites were planed down to smooth soil and then every tree in the "natural park" would be hand planted by someone... sans squirrels of course. The difference with lithium is it's typically found where no one wants to live... even animals.

Or you could do what I've been doing for decades and scream at a brick wall about alcohol fuels. Cleaner, more efficient, can be made from literal garbage, and oh... and in the case of methanol it's one of the very few industries in existence that actually consumes more carbon than it produces at a rate damn near 50% of the output volume. Oh, and a hellcat powered by them would not only run on higher octane but with a minor engine modification would make your gasser look like a slow piece of crap. Technology is awesome ain't it? We really should embrace that new smell rather than clinging to old crap.

Lithium mining is dirty and yes it's mostly found in areas that are less then ideal, however were just going to need more and more of it which means far more mining and that means more creative ways to mine it in the quantities needed. Also all those mining machines use a ton of diesel fuel to get it all done as well. Will see if they can be restored or if they remain a eyesore, would cost quite a bit to put everything back after mining is finished.

More people you have then they will need to go somewhere, more people then more vehicles needed. Not everyone wants to be packed in like sardines, some like having some land as well.

Alcohol fuels tend to be quite corrosive and hard on the engine, few cars are made for it, Brazil is the biggest user that I know of and it's warm enough. Methanol is also highly toxic and you need huge tanks to actually go anywhere since you require more of it to equal gasoline. Alcohol fuels have been used in racing for years, but even then it shortens the already short life of the racing engine. Ethanol is used but it really hinders more then it helps in cars in the United States and it's hard on emissions equipment and lowers mileage. If I simply wanted more power a nitrous oxide system would be far easier to do. Once again I see some on here have a axe to grind with people that like their high performance gas engines. I will say buy a EV if you want one, but not all of us are looking to get one.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
2,022
EVs aren't going anywhere until those prices come down. I see like what? 3 or so models that are 30k/under
That could be true (specially with how our brain and current mensuality work), but for someone looking to keep is car say just the next 12 years, is the monthly cost different between a way more expensive EV and the equivalent gas car ?
 

defaultluser

[H]F Junkie
Joined
Jan 14, 2006
Messages
14,399
Lithium mining is dirty and yes it's mostly found in areas that are less then ideal, however were just going to need more and more of it which means far more mining and that means more creative ways to mine it in the quantities needed. Also all those mining machines use a ton of diesel fuel to get it all done as well. Will see if they can be restored or if they remain a eyesore, would cost quite a bit to put everything back after mining is finished.

there is hope for effective Lithium recycling - they just need they massive demand that new BEVs bring to the table:

Today:

https://spectrum.ieee.org/lithiumio...s-off-in-north-america-and-europe#toggle-gdpr

The Future

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2021/1...s-makes-better-lithium-batteries-study-finds/

But yeah, I will agree that Aircraft will remain fueled (there are plans to create jet fue from that messy Methanol they have all over your local garbage dump)

http://newpapyrusmagazine.blogspot.com/2019/11/producing-renewable-jet-fuels-from.html
 
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NightReaver

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Apr 20, 2017
Messages
1,088
That could be true (specially with how our brain and current mensuality work), but for someone looking to keep is car say just the next 12 years, is the monthly cost different between a way more expensive EV and the equivalent gas car ?
I don't think your lender will factor that in, though. Nor does it make the down payment any lower.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
2,022
I don't think your lender will factor that in, though. Nor does it make the down payment any lower.

I mean by that if you make the mensually very long and the buyer look at is average monthly payment (balancing the higher insurance cost coming from EV, removing the saving in gas, amortizing the house charging system over time), maybe it would look more similar between both option, like solar system company that pay the big upfront cost directly on your monthly electricity bill saving over a long period of time.
 

NightReaver

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,088
I mean by that if you make the mensually very long and the buyer look at is average monthly payment (balancing the higher insurance cost coming from EV, removing the saving in gas, amortizing the house charging system over time), maybe it would look more similar between both option, like solar system company that pay the big upfront cost directly on your monthly electricity bill saving over a long period of time.
No, I get what you mean. I'm just saying if you can't get past the 1st hurdle (upfront cost), then the rest of it is moot.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Sep 10, 2020
Messages
2,022
No, I get what you mean. I'm just saying if you can't get past the 1st hurdle (upfront cost), then the rest of it is moot.
And I am saying that we could change it, by amortizing it on a very long time and removing the 1st hurdle significantly by doing so, letting the buyer using the future cost saving to help that step.
 

NightReaver

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
1,088
And I am saying that we could change it, by amortizing it on a very long time and removing the 1st hurdle significantly by doing so, letting the buyer using the future cost saving to help that step.
Ah, okay, I gotcha. I still don't know. That's asking the lender to look at a lot of extra variables for a car loan. Could increase other costs related to getting a loan for all I know.
 

LukeTbk

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
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Messages
2,022
Ah, okay, I gotcha. I still don't know. That's asking the lender to look at a lot of extra variables for a car loan. Could increase other costs related to getting a loan for all I know.
Yes it should increase the total cost and could require involvement on government to include change on your house, but if the governement pass 100% of the cost to the EV buyer at a low interest rate but just make it possible to amortize on a very long time it would be less of a choosing the winners than letting people use later saving to help upfront cost, that could be interesting.

Specially if the car lifetime is higher from the simple mechanics, that said it could require something around the battery change and resell habit to not have people saving all the upfront cost and finding a loophole to not pay all of it later.
 
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