Ford is Cutting Car Production Back to Just Mustang and Focus Active Models

Reality is all three of the pony cars are more capable than 99% of the people who drive them. The latest gen Camaro is clearly the "better" track car, with slightly better numbers all around in the performance department. But the differences are not noticeable my most drivers, and it's more expensive, smaller on the inside, less stylish, and has less visibility from the inside than the other two.

Those are the differences that explain the sales performance difference. They're both great cars that people couldn't dream of 40 years ago. I mean, really - 400-500 horsepower, 4 second 0-60 times, while getting 23 mpg on the freeway, all for 35-45K. Just an incredible time to be a car guy. Just too bad that there are fewer and fewer car guys left.

Hence the demise of cars for FCA and now Ford in favor of SUV/CUVs
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
That's basically what Ford has been doing since the intro of the Fiesta/Focus/Fusion/Escape/Edge/Explorer/Taurus (all of which I see a metric fuckton out there). All share the same basic I4/V6 packages, all Ecoboost engines sans turbos. They all have similar transmissions, the autobox getting better economy than the manual.

What's killing them, IMHO, is the low-point on the buy cycle coupled with cheap gas (on it's way out, btw) and designs overdue for refresh. Build quality hasn't fallen off from what I've seen, so the only other factor I can see is people are hanging on to their 3-5yo cars because they just can't afford to extend into yet another contract, especially with the uncertainty floating around, and overall drop in income.
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I hang on to my cars because

A. No car payment
B. They have not reach the it's not worth fixing it yet

2003 Subaru Legacy
2014 Subaru Legach

(ironically both built here in the states)

My dad does the same thing

2003 Chevy Avalanche
2010 Ford Taurus

another thing that hurts Ford and the other American manufacturers is no long term residual value...
 
Not all that surprised those lines aren't selling, I mean at the the price level many sedans are across the market these days it's stupid to not just go for a Honda or Toyota these days. Your standard issue Ford Chevy Chrysler is just no competition to what you get from Honda/Toyota these days, Offerings from the Big3 honestly aren't any cheaper and can't hold a candle to the reliability/service/quality you get with Honda/Toyota.

Recently my wife got a 2017 Civic EX-L for cheaper than I was getting quotes for similar equipped from the Big 3. So why on earth would we have gone with anything but the Honda.

But, I am a little shocked they are just exiting those markets all together instead of you know actually trying to make quality/reliable sedans to compete. In the end it's there brand so they can let it dwindle to whatever they want but still sad they can't pull it together enough to actually make decent things.
 
CannibalTrout said:
Not all that surprised those lines aren't selling, I mean at the the price level many sedans are across the market these days it's stupid to not just go for a Honda or Toyota these days. Your standard issue Ford Chevy Chrysler is just no competition to what you get from Honda/Toyota these days, Offerings from the Big3 honestly aren't any cheaper and can't hold a candle to the reliability/service/quality you get with Honda/Toyota.

Recently my wife got a 2017 Civic EX-L for cheaper than I was getting quotes for similar equipped from the Big 3. So why on earth would we have gone with anything but the Honda.

But, I am a little shocked they are just exiting those markets all together instead of you know actually trying to make quality/reliable sedans to compete. In the end it's there brand so they can let it dwindle to whatever they want but still sad they can't pull it together enough to actually make decent things.
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What’s the last domestic car you owned?
 
Zareek said:
Why stop at Mustangs? I have never understood why they are popular. They made some nice looking Mustangs back in the 50s-60s pretty much everything else is so overrated. Ford's sedan issue is one of perceived quality. Most people remember the garbage cars they pumped out in the 80s, 90s and ealry 2000s particularly. I bet the number one thing people look for especially in a sedan is reliability. On the flip side Ford trucks remained solid for the most part. People assume the SUVs are the same as the trucks. That's not always the case. I had a friend who had an Expedition and found most of the parts(front-end if remember correctly, brakes and steering.) where from the Crown Victorias instead of Ford trucks. His Expedition had a lot of issues.
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That's not uncommon. Dodge 1500s had the front end from the Caravan (and a death wobble). Everybody wanted an SUV (aka a truck) to ride like a sedan and got the chassis they deserved.
 
Grimham said:
I had a 2012 Fusion Sport. Traded it in at 100k. Never gave me one bit of trouble. That's just my 2 cents though, I'm sure experiences may vary.
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These days, if a car is giving you troubles before 100k miles, you got a lemon.

Big_Rig_Stig said:
Every couple of decades, Ford turns over in the ivory tower, a few marketing/accounting types get in power, and they fuck over the company. They ditch them soon enough and put engineers back in control who are smart enough to bring in exciting and smart designs.
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I'd rather the designers take over for a while. Cars of the last 30 - 40 years have mostly been boring or ugly in design. Engineers taking over and function over form, giving us the likes of the Pontiac Aztec.
 
nutzo said:
It's not that people are not buying sedans, it's that people are not buying FORD sedans.

Honda and Toyota are still selling a ton of them.
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Honda is having a hard time moving Accords. My Mom hasn't driven an sedan in ages, just bought a Nissan Rouge.
My sister just bought another Honda CRV, I have a Nissan Titan XD. And I regret buying my wife a Nissan Altima, should have sprung for the Murano.

As the size of cars increase, sedans are seen as "unsafe and cramped" for families these days.
 
WorldExclusive said:
Honda is having a hard time moving Accords. My Mom hasn't driven an sedan in ages, just bought a Nissan Rouge.
My sister just bought another Honda CRV, I have a Nissan Titan XD. And I regret buying my wife a Nissan Altima, should have sprung for the Murano.

As the size of cars increase, sedans are seen as "unsafe and cramped" for families these days.
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Agreed. The SUV's are taking families by storm. Makes sense, minivans just didnt have the curb appeal or in most cases the fun factor. I like my mariner, getting aged at 09 but I enjoy that I can drive everyone around comfortably on road or dirt and still carry wood pellets in the winter.

Where i live out in the country, all I see on the road are jeeps, trucks, suvs.
 
mord said:
From a Crown Vic? Huh. So instead of using parts from their pretty tough truck line on SUVs they used parts from an even larger and heavier vehical class, the land battleships known as Crown Vics! Haha, those crown vics are pretty beefy cars.

Let's be honest, 99% of large SUVs never even see a gravel road, much less pull a trailer of hay/produce/whatever through a rutted up dirt field. Road handling is more important for their market. I'm not singling out Ford, that's the whole SUV market.

Few of us actually buy one to take it off road.

The most common reason to "use" them for heavier work than a car is towing a trailer of some kind. Having a heavy duty car front end makes sense. Its on a road, and the trailer weight is on the back wheels not the front.
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If the weight is entirely on the back wheels you're loading the suspension wrong! ;)
 
Todd Walter said:
If the weight is entirely on the back wheels you're loading the suspension wrong! ;)
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Well, yeah. I just meant with an SUV, you can't use a 5th wheel etc. Most people don't setup towing suspension on a daily driver suv. That's when you go for a truck usually. There is always the 1% and niche cases. It's just not 99% of the asphalt queens out there used as a grocery getter and dropping kids at school that 2 weekends a year hauls a lawn tractor or motorcycle trailer that weighs 1/5th or less of the suv.

Or, I could say "You get better traction drag racing if you get a 100% wieght transfer to the back wheels!" Assuming rwd of course
 
Cyraxx said:
I find this topic so funny - there seems to be polar opposites in the market.

One side wants to go gas guzzler - large trucks and SUVs. Which I don't necessarily blame... the amount of shit I have to carry when we go out with our baby is ridiculous. Blame the wife though, if it were me I would just bring a diaper bag and something to strap her to me.

The other side wants to go all electric with Tesla, Toyota Prius (like to smell their own farts) etc.. which is mostly sedans at this point....


Maybe one day they will meet in the middle and have electric SUVs? Not sure, but I doubt it will happen anytime soon to be honest....
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Not sure on cost but have you not seen the Model X or maybe the new Model Y.
 
Gideon said:
Umm.. https://www.torquenews.com/106/dodge-challenger-beats-ford-mustang-chevrolet-camaro-february-sales
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Ummm, ignore the rest of the article much?
BHg2tqe.jpg
 
nutzo said:
If you need a 6 or 7 year loan to buy a car, you need to buy something cheaper that you can actually afford.

I've always saved up before buying a car, and when I did take a loan, I paid it of early, usually in less than 2 years.
Only exception is my current car. They had a 5 year 0% loan deal (no rebate or I would have taken that instead).
They also financed the complete cost of the car, taxes and everything. Drove off putting 0 down. No reason to pay it off early when it's 0%.
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You're the exception to the rule: most people need a certain monthly payment point, and to get that they HAVE to extend the financing. No, it's not smart, but it's happening, and the finance people at the dealerships are the ones profiting the most (since they get a percentage of that payment, and the longer it goes, the more they make).
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
Camaros are more expensive & make less power per unit displacement. They're also bigger & heavier. Same for the Challenger: looks good, but fat as a sideshow feature. The E-class Mercedes platform was never designed for performance.
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The 6th gen(16+) f body did lose weight. in some if not most cases. lighter than the current stang(15+)
 
mord said:
Well, yeah. I just meant with an SUV, you can't use a 5th wheel etc. Most people don't setup towing suspension on a daily driver suv. That's when you go for a truck usually. There is always the 1% and niche cases. It's just not 99% of the asphalt queens out there used as a grocery getter and dropping kids at school that 2 weekends a year hauls a lawn tractor or motorcycle trailer that weighs 1/5th or less of the suv.

Or, I could say "You get better traction drag racing if you get a 100% wieght transfer to the back wheels!" Assuming rwd of course
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I do, which was why I was grinding your gears a bit. :whistle: Besides, SUVs are still front-heavy and you have to corner sometimes; that means your front suspension will get laden and the sub-par parts will wear. Look at the GM owners' forums and you will find endless bitching about the bearings being eaten like tic-tacs!
 
Tsumi said:
Who cares about power per liter, it's a meaningless metric, especially across different engine types. Weight, efficiency, size, hp and torque curves, and reliability are what matter, regardless of whether it comes out of 5L or 6.2L.
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Yeah, keep telling yourself that, while the rest of the world builds small engines with high outputs & good fuel economy.



No they didn't. For such a big Ford fanatic, you sure are lacking knowledge on the CVPI. The reason a CVPI can accelerate faster than a standard CV is due to the 3.27 rear gear ratio (3.55 optional). Standard Crown Vics had a 2.73 gear. They all had the same dinky 4.6 L 2V engine. The only Panther to come with a more powerful engine was the Marauder with the 4.6 L 4V from the Cobra.
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I know I've seen/read about CVs with the Cobra motor (the Police Interceptors with the V10s were special-orders), maybe they were special-order vehicles as well.
 
N4CR said:
From what I see the camaros and mustangs are very closely matched on the track. The dodge top teir stuff owns the strip.
Camaros/LS/LTx make more hp and torque per engine size/weight/volume than equivalent SBF/coyote etc and have half the valves and smaller size making it easier to work on at home. You're trying to shit on the most widely supported and produced performance engine range of all time. Hell, I run one I my Honda because it's better than a little 2l 4 banger that had most hp/L for 12 years until the 458 Italia. Hp/L is almost meaningless in real world.
Capacity of the engine is nearly irrelevant unless you're from samurailand or Bongland where insurance laws are used to protect local industry so they can shit out 100cc deathboxes.
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Hope you enjoy replacing pushrods regularly.
 
CannibalTrout said:
Not all that surprised those lines aren't selling, I mean at the the price level many sedans are across the market these days it's stupid to not just go for a Honda or Toyota these days. Your standard issue Ford Chevy Chrysler is just no competition to what you get from Honda/Toyota these days, Offerings from the Big3 honestly aren't any cheaper and can't hold a candle to the reliability/service/quality you get with Honda/Toyota.

Recently my wife got a 2017 Civic EX-L for cheaper than I was getting quotes for similar equipped from the Big 3. So why on earth would we have gone with anything but the Honda.

But, I am a little shocked they are just exiting those markets all together instead of you know actually trying to make quality/reliable sedans to compete. In the end it's there brand so they can let it dwindle to whatever they want but still sad they can't pull it together enough to actually make decent things.
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There's still room in the sedan market, from Lincoln, Buick, etc. just not necessarily from the Ford and Chevy brands. But the thing is, even if the Fusion, Taurus, etc. were amazing sedans the reality is people want a bigger cargo area than a sedan can provide. I drove a mid-size sedan for years, now I drive a smaller SUV. It's shorter, has more cargo area, is roughly the same width, has the same amount of passenger room, and I never have to fight with getting anything into the trunk due to the size of the tailgate opening. Simply put, it's just more practical while still getting about the same MPG for a vehicle that has all the aerodynamics of a fist. This migration of the market to SUVs would have happened 20 years ago if the vehicles of today were available then, with roughly the same power:weight as a sedan, similar interior and features, and "ok" mileage. Back then they were all on truck bodies, had the handling and ride of a truck(as mentioned multiple times in this thread, hardly anyone is ever taking these things offroad), and you'd get 12mpg on a good day.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
You're the exception to the rule: most people need a certain monthly payment point, and to get that they HAVE to extend the financing. No, it's not smart, but it's happening, and the finance people at the dealerships are the ones profiting the most (since they get a percentage of that payment, and the longer it goes, the more they make).
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he isn't wrong though taking out a 7 car year note is asinine. I bought my last car April 2016 and it was paid for in 12 months... now no car payment, no upside down, and better insurance rates..
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
Only the ones classed as "light trucks" have to meet mpg/emissions standards. The bigger trucks (F250 and up) don't have to meet MPG, emissions, or crash standards.
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This works against Ford as they are only allowed to sell so many of these before the government slaps them down hard.

Ferrari's and Lambos are exempt also. But again, they have to remain below certain production numbers.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
You're the exception to the rule: most people need a certain monthly payment point, and to get that they HAVE to extend the financing. No, it's not smart, but it's happening, and the finance people at the dealerships are the ones profiting the most (since they get a percentage of that payment, and the longer it goes, the more they make).
Click to expand...

And that's why many people lease, to get a more expensive car with the monthly payment they can afford.
They ignore how much they are spending in the long run and wonder why they can never dig out of their financial hole.

I've had this argument with someone at work. He always leases and says it's cheaper.
Yet, when I compare my cost of owning a car for 10 years (buy, service, sell) vs his multiple leases over 10 years, my costs come out significantly less (almost half).
His response is that he could never drive the same car for that long, so in a way he is right in that it would cost HIM more to buy a new car every 2-3 years instead of leasing.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
You're the exception to the rule: most people need a certain monthly payment point, and to get that they HAVE to extend the financing. No, it's not smart, but it's happening, and the finance people at the dealerships are the ones profiting the most (since they get a percentage of that payment, and the longer it goes, the more they make).
Click to expand...
No, you don't. If you're buying a $35,000 car with a 7 year loan to keep the payments down, then what you really need to be doing is buying a $25,000 car since that would actually be affordable. The reality is that people want to buy cars they can't afford on a 4 or 5 year loan, and as a result take 7 or 8 year loans to keep the payments down while ending up still owing money on an out of warranty vehicle for an extra 2-3 years that is possibly worth less than what they owe on it halfway through the term due to depreciation. In addition to that, people buying cars seem to forget all the tax/registration/etc. so a 35k car ends up being closer to 38k but they're unwilling to consider the smaller vehicle or something without an infotainment system, and so on. I'm not one of those "never take a loan, never use credit, never be in debt" types, but there's a limit to what makes sense as we aren't talking about a 15 or 30 year mortgage on a house that appreciates in value over time.

Even with down payments it really is an oddity. Yeah sure, you managed to put $1,000 down on that car, that you'll be paying off for 7+ years, whoopdeedoo. Save up and put $10,000 down on that car, knock the payments down to something manageable that way even if it means driving a beater for a while, get out of the loan and eliminate the payments after only 4 years and start putting away your former car payment into savings/investments toward your next vehicle after another 2-3 years and you'll still be able to get a new car with likely reasonable payments OR extend the ownership of your current vehicle that's already paid off.
 
nutzo,
Yet, when I compare my cost of owning a car for 10 years (buy, service, sell) vs his multiple leases over 10 years, my costs come out significantly less (almost half).
His response is that he could never drive the same car for that long,


I'm 38, driving a 2002 Grand Prix GT I bought in 2006 for 1/3 the sticker price from a older couple. The car had 32,000 miles on it. Sticker was 28K I paid 8.5K. They were the only owner, and the car was immaculate. It was on craigslist. Why would I want to pay for a new car and possibly lose 2/3's of its value in 4 years?

I have 2-3 years left on my rental house mortgage and 11 years left on my primary house mortgage (which will be cut down when I pay off the rental house and have that rent income to apply).

I'm planning to have no mortgage in about 10 years, and can hopefully retire by 57 - If they don't skyrocket taxes so that I have to work longer to pay for the people who aren't planning ahead in life.

Anyway - I think I can drive that 2002 Grand Prix a little longer!

It's the old query you ask a kid. Do you want a marshmallow now? Or would you rather have three marshmallows in 1/2 hour ---- except we are adults --- and still most people still can't answer the question correctly.
 
CptCabbit said:
That's a shame because I'm a fan of the Taurus.
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This. I will never buy an econobox. Tiny cars only real advantages are slight mpg advantage and ease of parking. But you give up comfort, space, and safety. Not to mention, having a back door with a back seat is just convenient.
 
Merc1138 said:
No, you don't. If you're buying a $35,000 car with a 7 year loan to keep the payments down, then what you really need to be doing is buying a $25,000 car since that would actually be affordable. The reality is that people want to buy cars they can't afford on a 4 or 5 year loan, and as a result take 7 or 8 year loans to keep the payments down while ending up still owing money on an out of warranty vehicle for an extra 2-3 years that is possibly worth less than what they owe on it halfway through the term due to depreciation. In addition to that, people buying cars seem to forget all the tax/registration/etc. so a 35k car ends up being closer to 38k but they're unwilling to consider the smaller vehicle or something without an infotainment system, and so on. I'm not one of those "never take a loan, never use credit, never be in debt" types, but there's a limit to what makes sense as we aren't talking about a 15 or 30 year mortgage on a house that appreciates in value over time.

Even with down payments it really is an oddity. Yeah sure, you managed to put $1,000 down on that car, that you'll be paying off for 7+ years, whoopdeedoo. Save up and put $10,000 down on that car, knock the payments down to something manageable that way even if it means driving a beater for a while, get out of the loan and eliminate the payments after only 4 years and start putting away your former car payment into savings/investments toward your next vehicle after another 2-3 years and you'll still be able to get a new car with likely reasonable payments OR extend the ownership of your current vehicle that's already paid off.
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Or just make more money over time and manage it correctly?

Assuming the person stays on the same job, making the same money for 7 years, never deciding increase their income. I see your point.
Actually this is how most people live their lives.....sad.
 
Archaea said:
I have 2-3 years left on my rental house mortgage and 11 years left on my primary house mortgage (which will be cut down when I pay off the rental house and have that rent income to apply).

I'm planning to have no mortgage in about 10 years, and can hopefully retire by 57 - If they don't skyrocket taxes so that I have to work longer to pay for the people who aren't planning ahead in life.
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With the high cost of living in California, I won't be retiring at 57, more like 65-68.
But, I do have my house paid off.
With no house or car payments, we'll have enough to cover our kids college without taking out a loan.

After that, I can finally think about retirement.

If I didn't have college to pay for, and we were willing to move to a lower cost state, I could probably have a nice retirement at 60 due to the huge equity in my current home.
 
KarsusTG said:
This. I will never buy an econobox. Tiny cars only real advantages are slight mpg advantage and ease of parking. But you give up comfort, space, and safety. Not to mention, having a back door with a back seat is just convenient.
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I'm 6 foot and really don't want to drive anything smaller that a Toyota Camry.
As for mileage, I like my hybrid Camry. At 40 MPG, it's better than most smaller cars, especially around town.
I hear people complaining about gas prices going up (about $3.49 a gallon here in California), but I don't worry about it because I don't spend much on gas.

Short commute plus high mileage means I spend less than $500 on gas in a year, even at $3.49/gallon).
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
Hope you enjoy replacing pushrods regularly.
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Nah more valve springs if an older, more agressive cam profile. Already got strong moly push rods in there. Rocker bearings are next upgrade along with lifters then she should be pretty bulletproof with the external dry sump.
 
Big_Rig_Stig said:
Yeah, keep telling yourself that, while the rest of the world builds small engines with high outputs & good fuel economy.




I know I've seen/read about CVs with the Cobra motor (the Police Interceptors with the V10s were special-orders), maybe they were special-order vehicles as well.
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Good fuel economy? You mean like the 4.4 L 600 HP M5 that gets 15/21 against the 6.2 L 640 HP CTS V that gets 14/21? Or the 5.0 L 460 HP Mustang that gets 16/25 against the 6.2 L 455 HP Camaro that gets 17/27? Sorry, but you're just flat out wrong.

No CVPI came from the factory with a Cobra or V10 engine. That is a fact. The only ones with V10s or 4v 4.6 are ones that someone swapped in.
 
Its funny how American people go gas guzzling route and consider sedans unsafe while 90% cars in EU are sedans and they are okay for families.

I am perfectly fine with my Prius which gets 55mpg on average and I do have a family.
 
hmz said:
Its funny how American people go gas guzzling route and consider sedans unsafe while 90% cars in EU are sedans and they are okay for families.

I am perfectly fine with my Prius which gets 55mpg on average and I do have a family.
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It's like an arms race. Nearly everyone in the EU drives little cars so a little car is fine and safe but in the US you're 400,000% more likely to get run over by a mall crawling F-350 with a 12" lift and giant tires and dual stacks rolling coal so you need at least an F-150 to be somewhat safe.
 
hmz said:
Its funny how American people go gas guzzling route and consider sedans unsafe while 90% cars in EU are sedans and they are okay for families.
I am perfectly fine with my Prius which gets 55mpg on average and I do have a family.
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Hey now, I went the gas guzzling sedan route :)
(Lincoln LS 3.9L NA V8)
 
Lizard Testes said:
It's like an arms race. Nearly everyone in the EU drives little cars so a little car is fine and safe but in the US you're 400,000% more likely to get run over by a mall crawling F-350 with a 12" lift and giant tires and dual stacks rolling coal so you need at least an F-150 to be somewhat safe.
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That is a valid fact. I've gotten run over numerous times by huge pickup trucks. We always meet at the red light, though..
 
Lizard Testes said:
It's like an arms race. Nearly everyone in the EU drives little cars so a little car is fine and safe but in the US you're 400,000% more likely to get run over by a mall crawling F-350 with a 12" lift and giant tires and dual stacks rolling coal so you need at least an F-150 to be somewhat safe.
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Pretty much this.

A Prius is a safe car, but you have to put it into context. The three biggest selling vehicles last year were f-series pickups, followed by silverados, followed by dodge pickups, then the rav4...

The laws of physics are going to apply to you regardless and another pickup simply has the ability to deal with more kinetic energy. That is really all there is to it. If you get hit by a 9k lb pickup you are safer in another pickup than a 2k lb econobox.

When you think about it, how often do people die on the city streets in an 4 door F-350 longbed dually? It virtually never happens.
 
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